Marciano - Fired!!

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Arky

Too many questions. Waste. Of. Time.

But, hey, you got Chuck in your corner. lol

I'm sorry I had to go ahead and bring logic into it.

Go Texans and let's make a great hire. I'm for Gruden.

[chuck]

I'm being given as a reference in an internet argument. Awesome.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by chuck

I'm being given as a reference in an internet argument. Awesome.

I almost said...

"I've got my own crazy, internet, conspiracist"...

but I figured you were on my side after all.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by barrett

I almost said...

"I've got my own crazy, internet, conspiracist"...

but I figured you were on my side after all.

No, absolutely, I'm with you on this, partly because it's patently obvious and partly because it dovetails nicely with some of my pet conspiracy theories. Also, you and I make an entertainingly unlikely support group.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by chuck

No, absolutely, I'm with you on this, partly because it's patently obvious and partly because it dovetails nicely with some of my pet conspiracy theories. Also, you and I make an entertainingly unlikely support group.

A regular odd couple. We are at odds about %75 of the time, and loudly most of the time.

Most of the time because I am wildly optimistic and forgiving of every one in this franchise. I still don't hate Schaub or Kubiak (though I hope to never see either in a Texans uniform again). I am still ok with Rick Smith staying. I will still gladly pay money to watch McNair's team. I think he is a pretty good owner precisely because he stays out of football decisions. But this time he fired a coach because he didn't like who that coach played at QB (everyone on the board including Arky thinks pulling Keenum was the final straw). If it was just about losses he could have waited 3 weeks and done the "classy thing". Even Capers survived 2-14 and he wasn't coming off back to back Division titles. It is clear that who played the end of the Jax game was behind the timing.

Now I don't think McNair all of a sudden went Jerry Jones on us, and thinks he knows best in terms of football. I think he knows the end of this miserable season goes down a little easier for fans with #7 than with #8.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by barrett

I'm sorry I had to go ahead and bring logic into it.

No, the discussion began because I was questioning your logic - your portrayal of conniving old McNair as pandering to the fans. I disagreed and presented my side.

Then, you get all strawman, bring in some of my past viewpoints, ask 28 questions to analyze my logic and generally suggesting I don't have my s**t straight.

It's kinda like when I was a younger fella: I had some buds who went through a "everyone's a hypocrite" stage. They could spin things to make anybody out as a hypocrite - even a preacher. I kinda get that feeling with you and "logic" in our back and forth. And that's why I'm reluctant to continue - not to mention the huge time suck..... Thank god, they eventually moved on. Besides, I just got Batman: Arkham Origins and I need to go kick the Penguin's butt...

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Arky

No, the discussion began because I was questioning your logic - your portrayal of conniving old McNair as pandering to the fans. I disagreed and presented my side.

Then, you get all strawman, bring in some of my past viewpoints, ask 28 questions to analyze my logic and generally suggesting I don't have my s**t straight.

It's kinda like when I was a younger fella: I had some buds who went through a "everyone's a hypocrite" stage. They could spin things to make anybody out as a hypocrite - even a preacher. I kinda get that feeling with you and "logic" in our back and forth. And that's why I'm reluctant to continue - not to mention the huge time suck..... Thank god, they eventually moved on. Besides, I just got Batman: Arkham Origins and I need to go kick the Penguin's butt...

I mentioned logic because I wanted consistency out of you. I was asking that you hold yourself to the same standard you want to hold me. If I can't make things up, you can't make things up. If being agreed with by some internet poster makes your opinion a supported fact, being agreed with by some internet crackpot conspiracy theorist (chuck again) makes my argument supported fact. You want it both ways.

If expecting you to be consistent makes me like buds you used to have who spun preachers as hypocrites I am truly at a loss.

Good luck with Batman and I am glad you have video games to help you escape the time suck of arguing with me.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by barrett

Facts would say Kubiak signing Keenum last year, praising him for 2 straight years, letting him compete for the backup job, jumping him ahead of Yates to start, giving him 6 consecutive starts even though he's never won a game, and grooming him from UDFA to starting QB show that Kubaik has greatly helped Keenum's development.

I certainly agree with this part. No doubt Kubiak helped to develop and groom Keenum but that doesn't mean Kubiak, who wants to win and wants to show his players he wants to win, agrees with the decision to play him over Schaub so when the game is close late and Keenum has not looked all that sharp, he brings in Schaub to try to win the game.

I really don't fault Kubiak for doing that but if it defies orders from Smith or McNair, I can see why that might have been the final straw to getting fired now instead of next month.

To me, it's the 14 penalties that said "time to go". The players know he's a lame duck and aren't listening to him. They're going through the motions instead of auditioning for whomever the new coach turns out to be.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by barrett

I mentioned logic because I wanted consistency out of you. I was asking that you hold yourself to the same standard you want to hold me. If I can't make things up, you can't make things up. If being agreed with by some internet poster makes your opinion a supported fact, being agreed with by some internet crackpot conspiracy theorist (chuck again) makes my argument supported fact. You want it both ways.

If expecting you to be consistent makes me like buds you used to have who spun preachers as hypocrites I am truly at a loss.

Good luck with Batman and I am glad you have video games to help you escape the time suck of arguing with me.

Just keep it simple, barrett. Discussing or debating on the internet doesn't have to be complex. Just lay out your side and rest your case. Someone doesn't have to be right or wrong. One side doesn't have to have "faulty logic". It can be different logic or different rational thinking. If I made issue with everything I disagree with on internet forums, I'd never leave the keyboard. You seem like a smart guy so, by all means, share your opinions and don't feel "attacked" if someone disagrees with you.

No need to apologize (sincerely or facetiously). I just didn't feel like addressing your 28 questions (hyperbole alert) one at time...

Peace.

[HPF Bob]

Fellas. It's a small group here. No need to spit in anyone's eye here.

The folks who hated Kubiak and Marciano got what they wanted this week and it only cost them one terrible season. Schaub may soon follow.

Now, we can set about bitching over what Wade Phillips does or the next HC or the next QB that gets brought in because, as fans, that's what we do best.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

Do you truly believe he thinks Keenum will play next year? Or do you think he likes that Keenum takes a bit of heat off, while Schaub just makes people angrier?

I believe he thinks the Schaub ship sailed weeks ago and should have never come into port again. I believe he thinks Keenum is the only QB on his payroll that even has a remote chance of being here next year (whether you think so or not), and thus, should be playing and gaining experience regardless of the game situation or even if he's playing as poorly as Schaub has over the last 2 years. I believe he was totally disgusted with how the Jags game went down and said, screw it, lets just do this now. I believe he finally saw the light and decided he would like to get a head start on his HC interviews and it's now easier to do that with Kubiak out of the building.

Seriously, they have one home game left against the top team in the AFC with a HOF QB and an Offense on a historical pace. Do you really think he made the move or made the comments he did because he thinks he needs Keenum to fill the seats or appease the fan-base? I'm sure even McNair understands the stadium will be mostly filled because 1)season ticket holders won't want to waste the investment they made and will either go to the last home game or sell/give the tickets away, 2) local fans who couldn't afford to have the NFL stadium experience will now be able to get cheap tickets, 3)there will be a lot of Broncos fans filling those seats, or 4)all of the above.

I think it's pretty safe to assume McNair doesn't actually believe the fans (or advertisers) will flock to the stadium one last time to see Keenum play or Wade plodding down the sideline or our improved ST play now that Marciano is gone. Question the timing all you want, but saying he did it now just to appease the fans has very little merit at this point in the season. Frustration, yes. Fan appeasement, no.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

I believe he thinks the Schaub ship sailed weeks ago and should have never come into port again. I believe he thinks Keenum is the only QB on his payroll that even has a remote chance of being here next year (whether you think so or not), and thus, should be playing and gaining experience regardless of the game situation or even if he's playing as poorly as Schaub has over the last 2 years. I believe he was totally disgusted with how the Jags game went down and said, screw it, lets just do this now. I believe he finally saw the light and decided he would like to get a head start on his HC interviews and it's now easier to do that with Kubiak out of the building.

Seriously, they have one home game left against the top team in the AFC with a HOF QB and an Offense on a historical pace. Do you really think he made the move or made the comments he did because he thinks he needs Keenum to fill the seats or appease the fan-base? I'm sure even McNair understands the stadium will be mostly filled because 1)season ticket holders won't want to waste the investment they made and will either go to the last home game or sell/give the tickets away, 2) local fans who couldn't afford to have the NFL stadium experience will now be able to get cheap tickets, 3)there will be a lot of Broncos fans filling those seats, or 4)all of the above.

I think it's pretty safe to assume McNair doesn't actually believe the fans (or advertisers) will flock to the stadium one last time to see Keenum play or Wade plodding down the sideline or our improved ST play now that Marciano is gone. Question the timing all you want, but saying he did it now just to appease the fans has very little merit at this point in the season. Frustration, yes. Fan appeasement, no.

I don't think it has anything to do with ticket sales or finances. Like I said in the post you quoted, the last 3 games just go down a little easier with Case at QB. I know they do for me. I think that is most of why McNair wants Case in there, as a bridge from bridge 2-11 to the eternal optimism of the offseason. Matt Schaub on the other hand gets burned in efigy in the parking lot and accosted at his home. Those are not the headlines McNair wants.

At least I hope that is why he made the change. Because if he really did it because he thinks Case needs to play, that is far worse. An owner has no business deciding what players start. I understand wanting this season to end in the least frustrating way for fans possible, but I don't get an owner picking the starting lineup.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

I don't think it has anything to do with ticket sales or finances. Like I said in the post you quoted, the last 3 games just go down a little easier with Case at QB. I know they do for me. I think that is most of why McNair wants Case in there, as a bridge from bridge 2-11 to the eternal optimism of the offseason. Matt Schaub on the other hand gets burned in efigy in the parking lot and accosted at his home. Those are not the headlines McNair wants.

At least I hope that is why he made the change. Because if he really did it because he thinks Case needs to play, that is far worse. An owner has no business deciding what players start. I understand wanting this season to end in the least frustrating way for fans possible, but I don't get an owner picking the starting lineup.

I doubt headlines has anything to do with McNair's actions or comments. The season is a disaster and nothing Keenum does or firing a coach or two will change that perception. We know it's a disaster, the media knows it, and McNair knows it. McNair, and the franchise's, primary goal is and should be finding out which players will be here next year and having the data that best sets them up for the draft and for future success. This is especially true at a position as important as the starting and/or backup QB. Kubiak totally shat in the face of that initiative with his actions in JAX.

I think it's fairly safe to say the Texans management has decided Schaub is gone and that they've seen all they want to see of Yates. Who else does that leave? McNair was asked the question and answered it by saying he wanted Keenum on the field to assess and hopefully progress his development. To take those words or his actions in firing Kubiak/Marciano and drawing the conclusion it's to appease the fans or that he's scheming or meddlesome is stretching it quite a bit, IMO.

I've posted here many times my disgust at some of the moves (or lack thereof) this franchise makes so I'm not looking at this through rose-colored glasses. I just don't see your point of view on this. I see a man who is pissed, embarrassed, and decide he'd had enough. Maybe it all should have happened weeks or years ago, but it didn't. I agree with some here in that McNair comes across as an honorable man - maybe to a fault - and that he wanted to ride it out and let Kubiak finish out season with the players he helped groom. However, Kubiak forced his hand.

Anyway, next year is a new year and I doubt seeing Keenum play in 3 games or that McNair's recent actions will change the hearts of the media or fans or make them think this season has been any less of a disaster. I doubt McNair thinks that either. I think next year's media/fan outlook will have more to do with who they hire as the next HC and their offseason moves than it will for what happens on the field the remaining games.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

McNair, and the franchise's, primary goal is and should be finding out which players will be here next year and having the data that best sets them up for the draft and for future success. This is especially true at a position as important as the starting and/or backup QB. Kubiak totally shat in the face of that initiative with his actions in JAX.

I think it's fairly safe to say the Texans management have decided Schaub is gone and that they've seen all they want to see of Yates. Who else does that leave? McNair was asked the question and answered it saying he wanted Keenum on the field to assess and hopefully progress his development. To take those words or his actions in firing Kubiak/Marciano and drawing the conclusion it's to appease the fans or that he's scheming or meddlesome is stretching it quite a bit, IMO.

This was your original quote:



Next year is a new year and I doubt seeing Keenum play in 3 games will make the season ticket holders rush back and renew. I doubt McNair thinks that either. I think it'll have more to do with who they hire as the next HC than what happens on the field or who plays the last 3 games.

I agree completely, and I told you, I don't think it has anything to do with finances. Owning an NFL franchise is like a right to print money. That really can't be messed up. McNair could be terrible and not spend if he was financially motivated. I don't believe he is financially motivated at all. He spends freely on personnel and coaches and everything else. It is probably his best trait as an owner that he is not cheap.

His next best trait is he doesn't meddle. That is why this situation stood out. I don't believe there is anything Keenum could do in the next 3 weeks that would change how we treat QB this offseason. If he goes 3-0 with 4 TDs every week I think we still draft or don't draft the same as if he goes 0-3. If Case plays great the next 3 weeks do you think we don't draft a QB because of it?

I don't think we are evaluating him. I think we are ending this season as painlessly as possible (and it is not a bad thing). McNair cares deeply about having a franchise worthy of respect. It is reflected in the high character guys we acquire. I don't think he likes when his team is in national headlines for fans showing up at his terrible QB's house (I don't blame him). I think he knows Schaub playing just angers the mob and does not help us one bit long term. Keenum playing calms the mob but still doesn't help us long term. I would pick the same one as him (Keenum). Kubiak apparently didn't care enough about that to keep his job 3 more weeks.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

I agree completely, and I told you, I don't think it has anything to do with finances.

Sorry, barrett. I must have been editing my response while you posted this response (and thus, my quote you included is different than my actual comments above).

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

Sorry, barrett. I must have been editing my response while you posted this response (and thus, my quote you included is different than my actual comments above).

No problem.

The truth is I like McNair. There is a few weeks old thread where I defended him (http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/...ghlight=mcnair ). He spends and stays out of it. Those are 2 of the 3 best qualities an owner can have. The 3rd and most importnat is hiring good people, and you really only need to get that right once.

That is why the timing of everything this week bothers me a bit. He doesn't appear to be staying out of it. Our ST have been terrible for the whole existence of our franchise and McNair kept Marciano. He even kept him when he fired everyone else. He carried his foundation. And now with fan uproar at its highest he fires the guy with 3 weeks left in the season? When we could give up 10 ST TDs and it wouldn't matter? And not after one of our many ST debacles?

All of a sudden McNair is meddling in who should play and who should be a position coach? I just don't buy it's because he had football opinions that couldn't wait 3 weeks. Not when he has never imposed a football opinion in-season during our whole franchise history. I think he is getting a head start on washing the stink of 2013 and starting the optimism of an offseason with a new coach and the #1 pick.

And I don't have a problem with it. I just won't rejoice over a 3 week difference in timing that equates to a PR move (even a much needed one). I will wait to see who we hire and see if he can finally get the most important part of being an owner right (hiring good people). For all of you proclaiming him a good owner you do realize he is the one who hired all of the guys you have hated (Capers, Casserly, Kubiak, Marciano, etc...). His best hire ever is Rick Smith (an average GM to this point with some big hits and big misses). But like I said, he really only needs to get one hire right. Bob Kraft is Bob McNair who stumbled onto Bellachik.

[Nconroe]

And maybe Bellicheck stumbled over Tom Brady. They win a lot, make playoffs a lot, hadn't won superbowl since 2007, but that would be welcome here.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

I believe he thinks the Schaub ship sailed weeks ago and should have never come into port again. I believe he thinks Keenum is the only QB on his payroll that even has a remote chance of being here next year (whether you think so or not), and thus, should be playing and gaining experience regardless of the game situation or even if he's playing as poorly as Schaub has over the last 2 years.

I guess Wade Phillips disagrees. I'm completely shocked they went back to Schaub. Why make all these changes in the last month of a dead season. Just let it end and slink into the offseason.

[barrett]

Today McNair said that he fired Kubiak early to get a head start on the hire. It appears to have worked as we landed our first choice (and a choice desired by other teams) before the first playoff game. There is nothing to say whether it is the right choice yet, but at least we aren't stuck with plan B. I was very critical of the timing of Kubiak's firing (thought it was either too late or too early), and also of the motivations (didn't like our owner firing a guy and connecting it to his personal desire for which QB played). All that is in the pastone way or another, but I am glad McNair fired Kubiak when he did and got a head start on the hiring process. Hopefully he can now bow into the background and sign the checks for whatever O'Brien and Smith want to do.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

I guess Wade Phillips disagrees. I'm completely shocked they went back to Schaub. Why make all these changes in the last month of a dead season. Just let it end and slink into the offseason.

Re going back to Schaub: In hindsight, I guess Case was really hurt all along. One thing is certain, though... The Texans brass really, really, really have no desire to see Yates anywhere close to the field.