Marciano - Fired!!

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Arky

Sounds like it's a no-win situation for McNair. If he waits till the end of the season to do the dismissal, fans are even more upset. By doing it now, it's an agenda/money driven decision? Letting Kubiak go at the bye (record was 2-5 at that point) would seem a bit premature for a coach coming off two straight playoff years, IMO....

I think fan outrage started with Schaub, then went to Kubiak and then went right on up the ladder. People need to realize McNair isn't going anywhere - everybody else doesn't have that luxury or job security.

All the peeps that have been calling for his (Kubiak's) head, some dating back to years ago, should be happy right about now....

Of course it's a no-win situation for McNair, his team is 2-11 and on an 11 game losing streak. It's always no win when you don't win.

I am not asking for McNair to go anywhere. He is the owner. End of story. I saw plenty of negative comments about McNair in this thread but nothing close to "let's get rid of him." Nobody in this thread needs to realize anything about McNair not going anywhere.

McNair fires Kubiak and says Keenum needs to play and improve? Do you truly believe he thinks Keenum will play next year? Or do you think he likes that Keenum takes a bit of heat off, while Schaub just makes people angrier?

[Arky]

Originally Posted by barrett

Of course it's a no-win situation for McNair, his team is 2-11 and on an 11 game losing streak. It's always no win when you don't win. I am not asking for McNair to go anywhere. He is the owner. End of story. I saw plenty of negative comments about McNair in this thread but nothing close to "let's get rid of him." Nobody in this thread needs to realize anything about McNair not going anywhere.?

So, you just pile on suggesting he's a fan-pleasing, money-grubbing weasel pandering to the fans?

I'm suggesting being mad at McNair does doesn't do anybody any good. Smith/Kubiak/the players all can be replaced, obviously. The owner, that doesn't change - you're (anybody) wasting your time. If grousing about him or bad mouthing him makes you feel better go ahead and continue... I think he's a good man and wants a winner - he's way better than most owners. Not cheap, not a butthead, not an a-hole..... I see him as a kindly grandfather type whose only weakness is he spoils the grandkids (GM/coaches/players) too much. Some people call that "clueless".

McNair fires Kubiak and says Keenum needs to play and improve? Do you truly believe he thinks Keenum will play next year? Or do you think he likes that Keenum takes a bit of heat off, while Schaub just makes people angrier?

I think McNair is like most of us and has had his fill of Matt Schaub. Keenum might not be the future but he's the most, er.....interesting... on the roster right now. If McNair says "losing to Jacksonville" twice was his motivation for the firing, I kinda believe that. I'm just not buying the kiss-and-makeup-with-the-fans line as the reason for the firing.....

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Arky

So, you just pile on suggesting he's a fan-pleasing, money-grubbing weasel pandering to the fans?

I'm suggesting being mad at McNair does doesn't do anybody any good. Smith/Kubiak/the players all can be replaced, obviously. The owner, that doesn't change - you're (anybody) wasting your time. If grousing about him or bad mouthing him makes you feel better go ahead and continue... I think he's a good man and wants a winner - he's way better than most owners. Not cheap, not a butthead, not an a-hole..... I see him as a kindly grandfather type whose only weakness is he spoils the grandkids (GM/coaches/players) too much. Some people call that "clueless".



I think McNair is like most of us and has had his fill of Matt Schaub. Keenum might not be the future but he's the most, er.....interesting... on the roster right now. If McNair says "losing to Jacksonville" twice was his motivation for the firing, I kinda believe that. I'm just not buying the kiss-and-makeup-with-the-fans line as the reason for the firing.....

I'm wasting everyone's time by whining about McNair? Wow. Just wow.

Aren't you the guy who just told me this week that you were responding on this site to "Case Bashers" FROM OTHER SITES, and you would do it as much as you wanted to. And now I am wasting your time by complaining about the owner who presided over this 2-11 mess?

I don't care if McNair is your actual grandfather or just a kindly old grandfather type. I don't care if he is a good man and wants a winner. I don't care if he's sick of Matt Schaub. I care if he hires good people, and he hasn't. He protected Marciano in the last changeover. He hired Kubiak.

He didn't fire an NFL head coach with a sub .500 career record and a 10 game losing streak, and then he did fire the same HC saying it was partly about not playing a QB who has never won an NFL game. Either he likes feeding a hometown hero to the fans because they are dumb enough to be distracted by him being "interesting" (present company included), or he really was just sick of Schaub and he has no business forming opinions on who should play QB for this team. It is no win for him.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by barrett

I'm wasting everyone's time by whining about McNair? Wow. Just wow.

Well, yeah. Because, ya know, you don't have any control of the situation except to come on a public forum and throw out some crackpot speculation... Portraying McNair as some conniving fleece-meister is just disingenuous as all get out......

Aren't you the guy who just told me this week that you were responding on this site to "Case Bashers" FROM OTHER SITES, and you would do it as much as you wanted to. And now I am wasting your time by complaining about the owner who presided over this 2-11 mess?

Exactly. McNair bashers and Case bashers are usually the same breed - from the same tribe.... Many times, one and the same. Over the top. People pretending like they know what goes on behind the scenes... They're in every forum. If you think the franchise stinks from top to bottom, why don't you find something other to do with your time? At present, I only see frustration and anger in your future.... If the Texans won a SuperBowl next year, people would be bitching about it taking too damn long....

I don't care if McNair is your actual grandfather or just a kindly old grandfather type. I don't care if he is a good man and wants a winner. I don't care if he's sick of Matt Schaub. I care if he hires good people, and he hasn't. He protected Marciano in the last changeover. He hired Kubiak.

High crimes, I tell ya....

He didn't fire an NFL head coach with a sub .500 career record and a 10 game losing streak, and then he did fire the same HC saying it was partly about not playing a QB who has never won an NFL game. Either he likes feeding a hometown hero to the fans because they are dumb enough to be distracted by him being "interesting" (present company included), or he really was just sick of Schaub and he has no business forming opinions on who should play QB for this team. It is no win for him.

The bolded is just speculation, opinion, just a tad venomous and I could not disagree more. We as fans are entitled to nothing. The owner and team owe us nothing. We support the team of our own free will. If they suck, they suck - can't do a damn thing about it except not patronize them. Some people get on a forum and whine about how them mean ol' Texans done did them wrong. I understand that. I can handle it to a certain point until people start making s**t up.

[HPF Bob]

The only point to housecleaning now is that it sends a message to the players and fans that what is happening is unacceptable. I think the decision was weeks ago but Thursday night's 14-penalty fiasco was too much to save face.

Schaub gives the Texans a slightly better chance to win now but Keenum needs as much OJT as possible. I think by putting in Schaub, Kubiak may have forced McNair's hand.

Marciano's firing is a bit more satisfying to me. We get way too many ST penalties and that's on the coaches. Letting Jacoby Jones and Trindon Holliday go is just icing on the cake.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

The only point to housecleaning now is that it sends a message to the players and fans that what is happening is unacceptable. I think the decision was weeks ago but Thursday night's 14-penalty fiasco was too much to save face.

Schaub gives the Texans a slightly better chance to win now but Keenum needs as much OJT as possible. I think by putting in Schaub, Kubiak may have forced McNair's hand.

Marciano's firing is a bit more satisfying to me. We get way too many ST penalties and that's on the coaches. Letting Jacoby Jones and Trindon Holliday go is just icing on the cake.

I agree Bob, it's a message sent. I agree that the decision was made weeks ago, and I agree that putting Schaub back in was the final straw. You cannot expect the lame duck coach who has no future here to care about the future and that is why you get him out if it is play for the future time.

[Nconroe]

Originally Posted by barrett

I agree Bob, it's a message sent. I agree that the decision was made weeks ago, and I agree that putting Schaub back in was the final straw. You cannot expect the lame duck coach who has no future here to care about the future and that is why you get him out if it is play for the future time.

I'd agree with this opinion on the reason and timing of the dismissals.

Even Kubes said a couple weeks back we need to start playing the younger guys more.

Of course desire to win is also there.

There are always pros and cons on opinions and decisions. Plenty theories on what went wrong this year.

Now, I seem to remember most here wanted to get rid of Jacoby and Trindon at the time. Of course other ST coavhes seemed to get more consistency, not sure if it was experience and maturity or coaching.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Arky

Eh, we're all fans - it's what we do. We bitch, complain, knee-jerk and whine. And it's a good thing we aren't in charge....

So it's ok as long as it doesn't have anything to do with McNair because owners are off limits?

Originally Posted by Arky

Kubes still talking up his boy Matt Schaub post game last night.....


Keenum fans won't have to worry about Kubiak half-assing his development anymore. Kubiak did a few things with/to Keenum he would never do with Matt Schaub..... McNair sounded like a bit of a Keenum fan himself during the presser....

So you can bash Kubiak and Schaub and make up theories with no facts, like Kubiak is sabotaging Keenum, but I offer an opinion on McNair and it's unfair?

You are totally inconsistent in your arguments. Are we free will fans who need to shut up and take it or walk? Is it wrong to speculate and make things up or not?

The only consistent thing about you the last few weeks is that Keenum can do no wrong and anyone who falls short of worshipping the guy gets argued with.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by barrett

So it's ok as long as it doesn't have anything to do with McNair because owners are off limits?

No, owners are open to criticism. Just don't make stuff up.

So you can bash Kubiak and Schaub and make up theories with no facts, like Kubiak is sabotaging Keenum, but I offer an opinion on McNair and it's unfair?

I'd say Kubiak pulling Keenum twice can't be doing the young man's confidence any good. There's your fact. Out there on this internet thingy, there's quite a few people that have suspicions that Kubiak is/was hampering and half-assing Keenum's development.

You are totally inconsistent in your arguments. Are we free will fans who need to shut up and take it or walk? Is it wrong to speculate and make things up or not?

There are no rules. Speculate and opine all you want. Make things up and expect to be responded to.

The only consistent thing about you the last few weeks is that Keenum can do no wrong and anyone who falls short of worshipping the guy gets argued with.

Ah, but you don't point out when I've admitted Keenum has stunk it up. He looked pretty good against New England. Not so hot Thursday against Jax. I'd say he's done a decent job in about half his starts. The rest not so much. Not unexpected from a guy who was playing DB on the practice squad several weeks ago.

Ya know, responding to everything with an accusatory attitude don't make you right. I can handle a lot of bent, twisted ideas and innuendo when there is a kernel of truth involved. Something ringing totally false, not so much.

I think this is the part where we agree to disagree. Don't know about you, but I've got a lot better things to do...

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Arky

Out there on this internet thingy, there's quite a few people that have suspicions that Kubiak is/was hampering and half-assing Keenum's development.

If it's on the internet then it must be true.

But seriously, you say you are basing it on facts and not making things up like me. That facts show Kubiak is not helping Keenum and is working against him.

Facts would say Kubiak signing Keenum last year, praising him for 2 straight years, letting him compete for the backup job, jumping him ahead of Yates to start, giving him 6 consecutive starts even though he's never won a game, and grooming him from UDFA to starting QB show that Kubaik has greatly helped Keenum's development. Kubiak may be a below average HC (by definition, more wins than losses), but he has gotten better QB play compared to QB talent than most do. You said Keenum stunk it up in the Jags game, and yet when Kubiak pulled him for stinking it up, you think it is some kind of plot to ruin his development? And then you quote the existence of anonymous internet message board posts (from another message board), as proof you are right?

And then with a straight face you say I can complain but I'll be called on it when I make stuff up? Will you stop calling me on it if I said there are others on the internet (Chuck) that think it's true? By your backwards logic doesn't that mean it's a fact based theory and not one I made up?

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Arky

I can handle a lot of bent, twisted ideas and innuendo when there is a kernel of truth involved. Something ringing totally false, not so much.

You seriously don't think there is even a kernel of truth to the fact that McNair prefers Keenum on the field because fans like it?

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

Do you truly believe he thinks Keenum will play next year? Or do you think he likes that Keenum takes a bit of heat off, while Schaub just makes people angrier?

I believe he thinks the Schaub ship sailed weeks ago and should have never come into port again. I believe he thinks Keenum is the only QB on his payroll that even has a remote chance of being here next year (whether you think so or not), and thus, should be playing and gaining experience regardless of the game situation or even if he's playing as poorly as Schaub has over the last 2 years. I believe he was totally disgusted with how the Jags game went down and said, screw it, lets just do this now. I believe he finally saw the light and decided he would like to get a head start on his HC interviews and it's now easier to do that with Kubiak out of the building.

Seriously, they have one home game left against the top team in the AFC with a HOF QB and an Offense on a historical pace. Do you really think he made the move or made the comments he did because he thinks he needs Keenum to fill the seats or appease the fan-base? I'm sure even McNair understands the stadium will be mostly filled because 1)season ticket holders won't want to waste the investment they made and will either go to the last home game or sell/give the tickets away, 2) local fans who couldn't afford to have the NFL stadium experience will now be able to get cheap tickets, 3)there will be a lot of Broncos fans filling those seats, or 4)all of the above.

I think it's pretty safe to assume McNair doesn't actually believe the fans (or advertisers) will flock to the stadium one last time to see Keenum play or Wade plodding down the sideline or our improved ST play now that Marciano is gone. Question the timing all you want, but saying he did it now just to appease the fans has very little merit at this point in the season. Frustration, yes. Fan appeasement, no.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

I believe he thinks the Schaub ship sailed weeks ago and should have never come into port again. I believe he thinks Keenum is the only QB on his payroll that even has a remote chance of being here next year (whether you think so or not), and thus, should be playing and gaining experience regardless of the game situation or even if he's playing as poorly as Schaub has over the last 2 years. I believe he was totally disgusted with how the Jags game went down and said, screw it, lets just do this now. I believe he finally saw the light and decided he would like to get a head start on his HC interviews and it's now easier to do that with Kubiak out of the building.

Seriously, they have one home game left against the top team in the AFC with a HOF QB and an Offense on a historical pace. Do you really think he made the move or made the comments he did because he thinks he needs Keenum to fill the seats or appease the fan-base? I'm sure even McNair understands the stadium will be mostly filled because 1)season ticket holders won't want to waste the investment they made and will either go to the last home game or sell/give the tickets away, 2) local fans who couldn't afford to have the NFL stadium experience will now be able to get cheap tickets, 3)there will be a lot of Broncos fans filling those seats, or 4)all of the above.

I think it's pretty safe to assume McNair doesn't actually believe the fans (or advertisers) will flock to the stadium one last time to see Keenum play or Wade plodding down the sideline or our improved ST play now that Marciano is gone. Question the timing all you want, but saying he did it now just to appease the fans has very little merit at this point in the season. Frustration, yes. Fan appeasement, no.

I don't think it has anything to do with ticket sales or finances. Like I said in the post you quoted, the last 3 games just go down a little easier with Case at QB. I know they do for me. I think that is most of why McNair wants Case in there, as a bridge from bridge 2-11 to the eternal optimism of the offseason. Matt Schaub on the other hand gets burned in efigy in the parking lot and accosted at his home. Those are not the headlines McNair wants.

At least I hope that is why he made the change. Because if he really did it because he thinks Case needs to play, that is far worse. An owner has no business deciding what players start. I understand wanting this season to end in the least frustrating way for fans possible, but I don't get an owner picking the starting lineup.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

I don't think it has anything to do with ticket sales or finances. Like I said in the post you quoted, the last 3 games just go down a little easier with Case at QB. I know they do for me. I think that is most of why McNair wants Case in there, as a bridge from bridge 2-11 to the eternal optimism of the offseason. Matt Schaub on the other hand gets burned in efigy in the parking lot and accosted at his home. Those are not the headlines McNair wants.

At least I hope that is why he made the change. Because if he really did it because he thinks Case needs to play, that is far worse. An owner has no business deciding what players start. I understand wanting this season to end in the least frustrating way for fans possible, but I don't get an owner picking the starting lineup.

I doubt headlines has anything to do with McNair's actions or comments. The season is a disaster and nothing Keenum does or firing a coach or two will change that perception. We know it's a disaster, the media knows it, and McNair knows it. McNair, and the franchise's, primary goal is and should be finding out which players will be here next year and having the data that best sets them up for the draft and for future success. This is especially true at a position as important as the starting and/or backup QB. Kubiak totally shat in the face of that initiative with his actions in JAX.

I think it's fairly safe to say the Texans management has decided Schaub is gone and that they've seen all they want to see of Yates. Who else does that leave? McNair was asked the question and answered it by saying he wanted Keenum on the field to assess and hopefully progress his development. To take those words or his actions in firing Kubiak/Marciano and drawing the conclusion it's to appease the fans or that he's scheming or meddlesome is stretching it quite a bit, IMO.

I've posted here many times my disgust at some of the moves (or lack thereof) this franchise makes so I'm not looking at this through rose-colored glasses. I just don't see your point of view on this. I see a man who is pissed, embarrassed, and decide he'd had enough. Maybe it all should have happened weeks or years ago, but it didn't. I agree with some here in that McNair comes across as an honorable man - maybe to a fault - and that he wanted to ride it out and let Kubiak finish out season with the players he helped groom. However, Kubiak forced his hand.

Anyway, next year is a new year and I doubt seeing Keenum play in 3 games or that McNair's recent actions will change the hearts of the media or fans or make them think this season has been any less of a disaster. I doubt McNair thinks that either. I think next year's media/fan outlook will have more to do with who they hire as the next HC and their offseason moves than it will for what happens on the field the remaining games.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

McNair, and the franchise's, primary goal is and should be finding out which players will be here next year and having the data that best sets them up for the draft and for future success. This is especially true at a position as important as the starting and/or backup QB. Kubiak totally shat in the face of that initiative with his actions in JAX.

I think it's fairly safe to say the Texans management have decided Schaub is gone and that they've seen all they want to see of Yates. Who else does that leave? McNair was asked the question and answered it saying he wanted Keenum on the field to assess and hopefully progress his development. To take those words or his actions in firing Kubiak/Marciano and drawing the conclusion it's to appease the fans or that he's scheming or meddlesome is stretching it quite a bit, IMO.

This was your original quote:



Next year is a new year and I doubt seeing Keenum play in 3 games will make the season ticket holders rush back and renew. I doubt McNair thinks that either. I think it'll have more to do with who they hire as the next HC than what happens on the field or who plays the last 3 games.

I agree completely, and I told you, I don't think it has anything to do with finances. Owning an NFL franchise is like a right to print money. That really can't be messed up. McNair could be terrible and not spend if he was financially motivated. I don't believe he is financially motivated at all. He spends freely on personnel and coaches and everything else. It is probably his best trait as an owner that he is not cheap.

His next best trait is he doesn't meddle. That is why this situation stood out. I don't believe there is anything Keenum could do in the next 3 weeks that would change how we treat QB this offseason. If he goes 3-0 with 4 TDs every week I think we still draft or don't draft the same as if he goes 0-3. If Case plays great the next 3 weeks do you think we don't draft a QB because of it?

I don't think we are evaluating him. I think we are ending this season as painlessly as possible (and it is not a bad thing). McNair cares deeply about having a franchise worthy of respect. It is reflected in the high character guys we acquire. I don't think he likes when his team is in national headlines for fans showing up at his terrible QB's house (I don't blame him). I think he knows Schaub playing just angers the mob and does not help us one bit long term. Keenum playing calms the mob but still doesn't help us long term. I would pick the same one as him (Keenum). Kubiak apparently didn't care enough about that to keep his job 3 more weeks.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

I agree completely, and I told you, I don't think it has anything to do with finances.

Sorry, barrett. I must have been editing my response while you posted this response (and thus, my quote you included is different than my actual comments above).

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

Sorry, barrett. I must have been editing my response while you posted this response (and thus, my quote you included is different than my actual comments above).

No problem.

The truth is I like McNair. There is a few weeks old thread where I defended him (http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/...ghlight=mcnair ). He spends and stays out of it. Those are 2 of the 3 best qualities an owner can have. The 3rd and most importnat is hiring good people, and you really only need to get that right once.

That is why the timing of everything this week bothers me a bit. He doesn't appear to be staying out of it. Our ST have been terrible for the whole existence of our franchise and McNair kept Marciano. He even kept him when he fired everyone else. He carried his foundation. And now with fan uproar at its highest he fires the guy with 3 weeks left in the season? When we could give up 10 ST TDs and it wouldn't matter? And not after one of our many ST debacles?

All of a sudden McNair is meddling in who should play and who should be a position coach? I just don't buy it's because he had football opinions that couldn't wait 3 weeks. Not when he has never imposed a football opinion in-season during our whole franchise history. I think he is getting a head start on washing the stink of 2013 and starting the optimism of an offseason with a new coach and the #1 pick.

And I don't have a problem with it. I just won't rejoice over a 3 week difference in timing that equates to a PR move (even a much needed one). I will wait to see who we hire and see if he can finally get the most important part of being an owner right (hiring good people). For all of you proclaiming him a good owner you do realize he is the one who hired all of the guys you have hated (Capers, Casserly, Kubiak, Marciano, etc...). His best hire ever is Rick Smith (an average GM to this point with some big hits and big misses). But like I said, he really only needs to get one hire right. Bob Kraft is Bob McNair who stumbled onto Bellachik.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

I believe he thinks the Schaub ship sailed weeks ago and should have never come into port again. I believe he thinks Keenum is the only QB on his payroll that even has a remote chance of being here next year (whether you think so or not), and thus, should be playing and gaining experience regardless of the game situation or even if he's playing as poorly as Schaub has over the last 2 years.

I guess Wade Phillips disagrees. I'm completely shocked they went back to Schaub. Why make all these changes in the last month of a dead season. Just let it end and slink into the offseason.

[barrett]

Today McNair said that he fired Kubiak early to get a head start on the hire. It appears to have worked as we landed our first choice (and a choice desired by other teams) before the first playoff game. There is nothing to say whether it is the right choice yet, but at least we aren't stuck with plan B. I was very critical of the timing of Kubiak's firing (thought it was either too late or too early), and also of the motivations (didn't like our owner firing a guy and connecting it to his personal desire for which QB played). All that is in the pastone way or another, but I am glad McNair fired Kubiak when he did and got a head start on the hiring process. Hopefully he can now bow into the background and sign the checks for whatever O'Brien and Smith want to do.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

I guess Wade Phillips disagrees. I'm completely shocked they went back to Schaub. Why make all these changes in the last month of a dead season. Just let it end and slink into the offseason.

Re going back to Schaub: In hindsight, I guess Case was really hurt all along. One thing is certain, though... The Texans brass really, really, really have no desire to see Yates anywhere close to the field.