Injury to Texans' Brisiel appears to be season-ending

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by mussop

Do you consider this OL a finished product? Do you think we can win a champoinship with the current line?


Have you ever seen a team allow as much pressure from the middle as we do?

No, no, and ummmm no.

I've advocated drafting interior linemen. The question has been, what's a "reach" for getting them in the draft. I was wanting Eric Wood in the 2nd round, he was a first round pick by the Bills last year. I considered Max Unger in the 2nd, but had Barwin as a 1st round talent that was the BPA, so I couldn't fault the Texans because the defense NEEDED a pass-rushing specialist opposite of Mario. I looked at Caldwell as being a 4th round talent when we took him in the 3rd, I was giving more significance to our Secondary and wanted Bulldog CB Asher Allen. However, when we selected in the 4th CB Glover Quinn (who arguably is as good if not better than My Guy Asher), there were not any OL prospects that I was hot after. So perhaps we did a good thing in getting Caldwell when we did.

Go back another draft for a second. We drafted OT Duane Brown in the 1st round, I thought that was a reach but understood the NEED of getting a LT and they were coming off the board quickly. We didn't have a 2nd round pick in that draft. If we had been able to get an OL, I was impressed with Mike Pollack, but would have selected RB Ray Rice instead. In the 3rd round, we drafted CB Antuan Molden and RB Steve Slaton - looking at OL candidates there; I was really high on Jeremy Zuttah.

Moral of the story, the 2nd round is probably the best time to get an impactful OL (especially interior players) but there are probably other impactful players at other positions that will tempt you. The third round is where you can get the best of the "left overs" who haven't been snagged, but can probably start within 2 years. The 4th round and higher are anybody's guess when it comes to OL. I'm not saying you can't get a good OL late in the draft, but on the 2nd day of the draft if you are selecting an OL, you won't be confident that THAT player will be improving your team. So, again, drafting Caldwell in the 3rd was probably smart strategy. We'll be able to see this weekend if that was really the case.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Roy P

No, no, and ummmm no.

I've advocated drafting interior linemen. The question has been, what's a "reach" for getting them in the draft. I was wanting Eric Wood in the 2nd round, he was a first round pick by the Bills last year. I considered Max Unger in the 2nd, but had Barwin as a 1st round talent that was the BPA, so I couldn't fault the Texans because the defense NEEDED a pass-rushing specialist opposite of Mario. I looked at Caldwell as being a 4th round talent when we took him in the 3rd, I was giving more significance to our Secondary and wanted Bulldog CB Asher Allen. However, when we selected in the 4th CB Glover Quinn (who arguably is as good if not better than My Guy Asher), there were not any OL prospects that I was hot after. So perhaps we did a good thing in getting Caldwell when we did.

Go back another draft for a second. We drafted OT Duane Brown in the 1st round, I thought that was a reach but understood the NEED of getting a LT and they were coming off the board quickly. We didn't have a 2nd round pick in that draft. If we had been able to get an OL, I was impressed with Mike Pollack, but would have selected RB Ray Rice instead. In the 3rd round, we drafted CB Antuan Molden and RB Steve Slaton - looking at OL candidates there; I was really high on Jeremy Zuttah.

Moral of the story, the 2nd round is probably the best time to get an impactful OL (especially interior players) but there are probably other impactful players at other positions that will tempt you. The third round is where you can get the best of the "left overs" who haven't been snagged, but can probably start within 2 years. The 4th round and higher are anybody's guess when it comes to OL. I'm not saying you can't get a good OL late in the draft, but on the 2nd day of the draft if you are selecting an OL, you won't be confident that THAT player will be improving your team. So, again, drafting Caldwell in the 3rd was probably smart strategy. We'll be able to see this weekend if that was really the case.

Ive said this before, I am not as high on Caldwell as most. I watched him alot at Alabama and wasnt that impressed. He has a tendency to reach when in space and get off balance alot. That isnt a good quality to have in this system or any for that matter. Hopefully they have corrected that or he'll have been a wasted pick. I suspect that is why he hasnt cracked the lineup thus far. Hope Im wrong, we'll see.

Anyway my point is I dont see Caldwell as an upgrade. Like I said the OL is to important and not good enough to not upgrade, if you have a quality guy available, that could help immediately. Oher was there for the taking and could of played inside (huge upgrade) and in a pinch swung outside. Cushing has turned out a worthy pick (so far) but IMO Oher was the BPA and a need.

I dont want it to sound like im crying over spilt milk, im not. I like what Cushing has brought to this team physically and attitude wise. Im just saying my priority for building a winning team would be to solidify the trenches first. Thats just my philosophy. Therefore OL and DL will always come before any position unless of course a player at another position is a far superior talent.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by mussop

Oher was there for the taking and could of played inside (huge upgrade) and in a pinch swung outside.

Therefore OL and DL will always come before any position unless of course a player at another position is a far superior talent.

Well, that is the thing about matching players with scheme. Oher is a Tackle and would not be drafted in the first round to play G, especially in our ZBS. We had Brown and Winston already on the roster so asking Winston to play G so a rookie could play RT wouldn't have been the prudent thing to do. If we didn't have Brown and we didn't run Gibbs' ZBS, Oher might be a very good pick. Watching him against Odom this past weekend showed he could hold his own as a LT in pass protection.

If I had your commitment to improving the OL instead of the DL in the last draft, then selecting Max Unger instead of Connor Barwin would have been an appropriate choice considering who we have on the roster, the scheme we run, and value of interior linemen.

In the upcoming draft, I'm pretty committed to improving our Secondary. The whole Dunta Robinson drama has left me feeling like we should move on. So, all things being equal I'm going to be focused on FS and CB in the first 2 rounds and then most likely look at RG and RB in the 3rd and 4th rounds. The funny thing is, I feel those are the best rounds to get the most value at those positions. That's based upon looking at the drafts of the last 7 years and when players were selected. Now, if a 1st round talented OL slides to the 2nd round and I believe I can get a decent CB in the 3rd, then I may flip flop my "plan" in that instance. For example, if Selvish Capers is on the board in the 2nd round, I might just have to take him. However, if I can get Jason Fox or Jon Asamoah in the 3rd round, I'll still be a happy Texan.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Roy P

Well, that is the thing about matching players with scheme. Oher is a Tackle and would not be drafted in the first round to play G, especially in our ZBS. We had Brown and Winston already on the roster so asking Winston to play G so a rookie could play RT wouldn't have been the prudent thing to do. If we didn't have Brown and we didn't run Gibbs' ZBS, Oher might be a very good pick. Watching him against Odom this past weekend showed he could hold his own as a LT in pass protection.

If by prudent you mean it wouldnt make us better I dissagree.

Originally Posted by Roy P

If I had your commitment to improving the OL instead of the DL in the last draft, then selecting Max Unger instead of Connor Barwin would have been an appropriate choice considering who we have on the roster, the scheme we run, and value of interior linemen.

Thats exactly what I would of done. A project pass rush specialist isnt nearly as valuable as a starting OL IMO. I had Mack as a first round talent.

Originally Posted by Roy P

In the upcoming draft, I'm pretty committed to improving our Secondary. The whole Dunta Robinson drama has left me feeling like we should move on. So, all things being equal I'm going to be focused on FS and CB in the first 2 rounds and then most likely look at RG and RB in the 3rd and 4th rounds. The funny thing is, I feel those are the best rounds to get the most value at those positions. That's based upon looking at the drafts of the last 7 years and when players were selected. Now, if a 1st round talented OL slides to the 2nd round and I believe I can get a decent CB in the 3rd, then I may flip flop my "plan" in that instance. For example, if Selvish Capers is on the board in the 2nd round, I might just have to take him.

Like I said Im fine with taking a Berry over a good but not as talented OL but if things are equal Im going OL everytime.

Capers would be a great second round pick for us.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by mussop

If by prudent you mean it wouldnt make us better I dissagree.

By prudent, I mean people's feelings wouldn't be hurt. Eric Winston was a 3rd round pick who thought he should have been a 1st rounder. Instead of putting him at LT, he gets put at RT, and has done a very good job there. Then a rookie is selected in the 1st round to keep Eric on the RT in the name of Duane Brown. Now Oher comes in and either moves D. Brown to LG so Pitts could go to RG or Oher becomes the RT and moves Winston to RG. Anyway you slice that, the OL would be jumbled (remember when people were talking about how nice it was to have continuity on the OL and no injuries allowed them to play 16 games together?).

I'm not saying any of the above scenarios wouldn't have been better on paper, I'm saying it would have pissed PEOPLE off who actually put on the uniform and play on Sunday. Basically it would just look bad and hurt too many egos including people like Rick Smith, Alex Gibbs, and Gary Kubiak.

Anway, that is water under the bridge. The OL is now 40% injured and we are needing to scramble. The new guy (Caldwell) may get in the lineup so we can see what he's got. Chis White or Rashad Butler are also on the roster for these "just in case" scenarios, so we can see what that looks like. Who knows, maybe the run game will improve?

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Roy P

By prudent, I mean people's feelings wouldn't be hurt. Eric Winston was a 3rd round pick who thought he should have been a 1st rounder. Instead of putting him at LT, he gets put at RT, and has done a very good job there. Then a rookie is selected in the 1st round to keep Eric on the RT in the name of Duane Brown. Now Oher comes in and either moves D. Brown to LG so Pitts could go to RG or Oher becomes the RT and moves Winston to RG. Anyway you slice that, the OL would be jumbled (remember when people were talking about how nice it was to have continuity on the OL and no injuries allowed them to play 16 games together?).

Continuity is nice but cant overcome lack of talent. I think they were blinded (like most here) by a over inflated stat. I have said a thousand times if I have said it once. Being 3rd in the leauge in total yards dont mean squat if you are in the bottom half in scoring. But that is all you hear last year before the draft. " We have to go heavy defense because our offense is set. We were 3rd best offense in the NFL". We'll youre offense can only go as far as youre OL takes it. Have you ever seen a team with a weak OL or one without decent depth win consistantly?

Originally Posted by Roy P

I'm not saying any of the above scenarios wouldn't have been better on paper, I'm saying it would have pissed PEOPLE off who actually put on the uniform and play on Sunday. Basically it would just look bad and hurt too many egos including people like Rick Smith, Alex Gibbs, and Gary Kubiak.

I dont understand this line of reasoning. These players are professionals and get paid an incredible amount of money. If their egos get in the way of improving the team then they need to be shipped out. And I dont see how it would hurt the egos of Rick Smith, Alex Gibbs, and Gary Kubiak. Hell maybe thats whats wrong with this team. Everyone is worried about hurting each others egos instead of whats really important, putting the team first.

Originally Posted by Roy P

Anway, that is water under the bridge. The OL is now 40% injured and we are needing to scramble. The new guy (Caldwell) may get in the lineup so we can see what he's got. Chis White or Rashad Butler are also on the roster for these "just in case" scenarios, so we can see what that looks like. Who knows, maybe the run game will improve?

Exactly they should of foreseen this. How often does a team go a whole year without injury to one of its linemen? We were extremely lucky last year. We have no quality depth and now we are in deep dodo becuase they didnt prepair for this. They had the opportunity to draft a starting caliber OL in the first and second round of the draft and chose to take lesser, riskier talent. But you are right its water under the bridge now. Hopefully Im wrong about Caldwell and he will turn out to be starting material. I guess we'll see.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by mussop

Being 3rd in the leauge in total yards dont mean squat if you are in the bottom half in scoring.

If their egos get in the way of improving the team then they need to be shipped out. And I dont see how it would hurt the egos of Rick Smith, Alex Gibbs, and Gary Kubiak.

Yeah, we have an above average offense. At least it's respectable now that we don't have David Carr.

Egos are part of the NFL. It's a great job and only a very select few get to participate as players, coaches, GMs. So, they do have some reason to be arrogant. When things aren't going well, most people will try to "save face" so I'm not surprised when folks exhibit human nature.

Anyway, I'm done discussing psychology.

[Nconroe]

I hope Breisel heals well and can make a come back next year. Next draft comes up when, April? past is past at this time.

Wonder if they will activate Andrey Crummey off practice squad to replace Briesel if he does go IR?

Any other FA OG's out there to look at, someone mentioned maybe invite Fred Weary in for a tryout?

And, I'm hoping Caldwell proves he can do well right away as a rookie.

[painekiller]

According to aj's blog

worked out seven other players including veteran linebackers Monty Beisel, Rocky Boiman, Darnell Bing and Brandon Renkart, and free agent guards Terrence Metcalf, Adrian Jones and Tutan Reyes.

The guards are all veterans that should be able to play rather fast if needed. Jones was with the team during the off season.

We are down a LB currently thus the LBs brought in.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by painekiller

According to aj's blog


The guards are all veterans that should be able to play rather fast if needed. Jones was with the team during the off season.

We are down a LB currently thus the LBs brought in.

Man whats the deal with Buster Davis? He looked really good in the preseason.

Wasnt Darnell Bing a safety when he was in the draft?

[Nconroe]

I know the OL wasn't perfect today, but they likely had their best game of the year, didn't they? I thought White and Caldwell both filled in pretty well for Breisel. Slayton and Brown had several good runs that don't count in the stats since called back due to holding and motion penalties. The OL as many on the team seem to be getting more consistent as games go by.