The Trenches

[painekiller]

I was watching a show on the NFLn that showed Deacon Jones talking about their front four, then they showed the Steel Curtain and finally the Vikings great front four from the late 60's to mid 70's. And I wondered why is everyone complaining about us trying to build a front four that rivals these groups.

I know that the game as changed since the 70's, and the OL has gained an advantage of being able to use their hands. But having a DE anchor and solid athletic tackles should be applauded.

Mario is now a given, Okoye is athletic and having a good off season, TJ showed a strong motor last year, he is being over looked by the fans here that are mad at his draft position. The pick of Okam could be interesting, for a big man he has a wiggle and can get separation from blockers, image a sack from a 322lber (check the roster he is listed at an even lower weight then when he was drafted).

I maybe the only one but I like the Cochran and Kalu. And I am hoping that Thompson is able to add some nickle package pass rush.

I say draft another 1st day guy and let them become a DL with a nickname.


BTW the better our DL gets the better OL gets to practice against, another benefit.

[sescoyote]

I have no problem building a defense with a good focus on the DL. I do have a problem with neglecting other areas when the DL is serviceable. We need a stong CB and a safety that is a field general and commands the other team to gameplan around. SS seems to one of the most underrated positions.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by sescoyote

I have no problem building a defense with a good focus on the DL. I do have a problem with neglecting other areas when the DL is serviceable. We need a stong CB and a safety that is a field general and commands the other team to gameplan around. SS seems to one of the most underrated positions.

According to Megan Manfull, our safety position is one of the deepest on the team, what you do not agree?

Will Demps was a pro bowl alternate, CC Brown actually looked solid by the end of the season, we have Glenn Earl, who Kubiak thought was going to have a huge year prior to his injury last season, we have nine-year veteran Nick Ferguson who should be considered a playing coach. Injury made the position one of question marks last year, but we have assembled a group of hybrid safeties. What do I mean by hybrid? Our defense runs on a left and right safety, both guys are expected to have similar skill sets, they are not true cover guys or in the box guys, but in between.

Harrison and Mitchell are both big bodied guys, and Harrison ran a 4.5 and played some cover in college. These guys are pushing for time. Plus add the draft pick Barber, who has shown a very good head for the game.

While I can agree that most have not yet produced to a high level in the NFL, I think the position is not the issue most have it slated to be.

Now get me started on CB, Bennett is going to be a steal, Robinson has the mental strength to get himself back to his preinjury status (yes I sipped the kool-aid, again). The coaches think they can make a player out of Reeves, and the GM paid him pretty good, so he better play well. (BTW Keith pointed out that Reeves contract has an out clause for us if he does not work out).

We drafted a kid I believe will be a solid CB in this league in Molden, so how many more high picks do you want to throw there?

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by painekiller

According to Megan Manfull, our safety position is one of the deepest on the team, what you do not agree?

Will Demps was a pro bowl alternate, CC Brown actually looked solid by the end of the season, we have Glenn Earl, who Kubiak thought was going to have a huge year prior to his injury last season, we have nine-year veteran Nick Ferguson who should be considered a playing coach. Injury made the position one of question marks last year, but we have assembled a group of hybrid safeties. What do I mean by hybrid? Our defense runs on a left and right safety, both guys are expected to have similar skill sets, they are not true cover guys or in the box guys, but in between.

Harrison and Mitchell are both big bodied guys, and Harrison ran a 4.5 and played some cover in college. These guys are pushing for time. Plus add the draft pick Barber, who has shown a very good head for the game.

While I can agree that most have not yet produced to a high level in the NFL, I think the position is not the issue most have it slated to be.

Now get me started on CB, Bennett is going to be a steal, Robinson has the mental strength to get himself back to his preinjury status (yes I sipped the kool-aid, again). The coaches think they can make a player out of Reeves, and the GM paid him pretty good, so he better play well. (BTW Keith pointed out that Reeves contract has an out clause for us if he does not work out).

We drafted a kid I believe will be a solid CB in this league in Molden, so how many more high picks do you want to throw there?

1. i want a probowl safety. demps played well last year but he didn't even sniff probowl to me. i would like to have 2 safeties who have potential exceeding average. demps=average+, brown=average at his best game, earl=average before he was injured for an entire season, ferguson=won't play a single down this year outside of special teams. harrison, mitchell and barber are camp fodder until any of them make it past training camp.

however, if we are going to spend a high pick on d again, i'd take my shot at the best LB available unless diles AND adibi show up this year. i'd say we are a LB, a S, and a healthy dunta away from a hellraising defense.

[edo783]

Originally Posted by KJ3

1. i want a probowl safety. demps played well last year but he didn't even sniff probowl to me. .

IIRC, he was selected last year to the ProBowl as an alternate. That to me is a sniff.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by KJ3

1. i want a probowl safety. demps played well last year but he didn't even sniff probowl to me. i would like to have 2 safeties who have potential exceeding average. demps=average+, brown=average at his best game, earl=average before he was injured for an entire season, ferguson=won't play a single down this year outside of special teams. harrison, mitchell and barber are camp fodder until any of them make it past training camp.

however, if we are going to spend a high pick on d again, i'd take my shot at the best LB available unless diles AND adibi show up this year. i'd say we are a LB, a S, and a healthy dunta away from a hellraising defense.

So you want to be the Cowboys? Pro Bowl players at every position. All I can say is the mid -80's version of the Oilers had a horrible CB named Dishman, Willie Gault went deep on him at will. He was a joke.

Fast forward a couple years, and he was pro bowl player, why because he matured.

Let Kubiak's and Smith's guys mature, they have completely redone this roster and we have not started their 3rd year. I see potential in these guys. Not all of them will work out, but many will.

BTW I agree the LB is top priority, along with RDE.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by edo783

IIRC, he was selected last year to the ProBowl as an alternate. That to me is a sniff.

i meant i don't think he deserved it. not that i had running tallies on every safety in the afc but i just don't think he played probowl caliber safety. he played well, just not probowl well....to me anyway, and who am i to question how probowlers are selected?

Originally Posted by painekiller

So you want to be the Cowboys? Pro Bowl players at every position. All I can say is the mid -80's version of the Oilers had a horrible CB named Dishman, Willie Gault went deep on him at will. He was a joke.

Fast forward a couple years, and he was pro bowl player, why because he matured.

Let Kubiak's and Smith's guys mature, they have completely redone this roster and we have not started their 3rd year. I see potential in these guys. Not all of them will work out, but many will.

BTW I agree the LB is top priority, along with RDE.

i think i was pretty clear with what i wanted...but yea, i'll take an all-star team as long as they are in the right uniform.

...and it's not like we got to see either of the brandons' play. i mean neither one of them got a shake last year and I almost played safety for the texans the way they were going down ...i know one was IR'ed. their guys are starting to surface in the lineups everywhere but the defensive backfield, save fred bennett coming out midway through the year. S is still capserly'ed up with brown/earl and demps was a free agent so...unless you're banking on barber or harrison to develop into something great by the 2009 draft we still need help at S. having a guy like demps is great but it's just that much better to have a playmaker next to him. we've got 'em at every level of D except S mario, amobi on the d'line, demeco LB, dunta and fred CBs and......?

to be honest i wouldn't care if LB, DE, and S were the first 3 selections next year, but i love defense. that gets me going on every play as much as it does when the offense scores. if they really wanted to round out the line with a complete DE not just a pass rusher i say do it. but if they are just looking for a pass rusher...i wouldn't be so thrilled about spending a high pick on it.

[Bigtinylittle]

To me, safety is not one of our top problems. They are:

1. Lack of a consistent pass rush

2. Lack of a consistent running game.

3. Lack of time for QB to get the ball off.

I believe that if we had played with an all-pro free safety all sixteen games last year, we would have still finished with about the same record or maybe a little better.

If we would have played with an-all pro left tackle instead of that free safety, I think we would have definately have made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro weakside DE with Mario on the strong side, I think we would have definately made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro halfback we would definately made the playoffs.

Sure, having an all-pro free safety would be nice, but safety is not one of the priority positions in the draft. You can't have an all-pro at every position. This year, eight offensive tackles were picked in the first round. How many safeties were picked in the first round?

Think about it.

[Vinny]

if we can't stop the run, none of that stuff matters. Stopping the run puts teams in obvious passing situations since it is hard to stay in 2nd (or 3rd) and short and play good defense overall. Okoye was disappointing vs the run last year and has to prove he is a 3 down lineman this season. This will go a long way towards us being a better team defensively.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by Vinny

if we can't stop the run, none of that stuff matters. .

AGREED........

[kravix]

Originally Posted by Bigtinylittle

To me, safety is not one of our top problems. They are:

1. Lack of a consistent pass rush

2. Lack of a consistent running game.

3. Lack of time for QB to get the ball off.

I believe that if we had played with an all-pro free safety all sixteen games last year, we would have still finished with about the same record or maybe a little better.

If we would have played with an-all pro left tackle instead of that free safety, I think we would have definately have made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro weakside DE with Mario on the strong side, I think we would have definately made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro halfback we would definately made the playoffs.

Sure, having an all-pro free safety would be nice, but safety is not one of the priority positions in the draft. You can't have an all-pro at every position. This year, eight offensive tackles were picked in the first round. How many safeties were picked in the first round?

Think about it.

I cannot agree with those two. I think that the def would have looked better with even a healthy Weaver let alone an all pro, but there was way too much shifting in the def backfield because of injuries and poor play for one DE to make up for that.

The other.. While Salaam isnt a pro bowler, he is by no means a revolving door or a loss at LT. I would peg him average, but better than any LT we have had to date. Alot of pressure came up the middle because Flanny couldnt block to save his life. They actually ran the ball pretty good to the outside left edge. Our off was even at the tops of the ranks in long passes.

The off woes came from the lack of a running game. Green got hurt, but still suited up several games and played a few. Dayne actually did better than I thought he would, but he isnt an every down back and he is typically better late in games and later in the season because def arent so fresh. Couple that with a missing AJ, the other recievers stepped up and did ok but they arent AJ, hurt Schaub, and then off lineman dropping like flies and viola.. sub par off.

The biggest thing that hurt the team last year was injuries. Because we didnt have depth. This year the depth is better all around. Injuries will happen but they wont hurt as much. That is the biggest thing that will mean a play off spot and just missing it.

[NBT]

You can never tell about injuries. We have had them in bunches for the past two years. We have more and better depth this year so that should help. The walking wounded will be back (maybe even Spencer!). We have the depth to overcome the paucity at the RB position if Ahman gets hurt (again!) Everything always looks rosey this time of year. Let's hope the God of injury smiles on us this year.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by Bigtinylittle

To me, safety is not one of our top problems. They are:

3. Lack of time for QB to get the ball off.

i could buy the first two, but this is ridiculous because our passing game was like the only thing that was close to consistent. 22 sacks is dandy and like 5th(?) lowest in the league to boot. i'm fine with that, i'm just sick of seeing an insurance company behind our LBs. you pay 'em a lot, but they just don't cover it all.

I believe that if we had played with an all-pro free safety all sixteen games last year, we would have still finished with about the same record or maybe a little better.

If we would have played with an-all pro left tackle instead of that free safety, I think we would have definately have made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro weakside DE with Mario on the strong side, I think we would have definately made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro halfback we would definately made the playoffs.

if one player would have made the difference, then one player would have made the difference. you can't just pick and choose and assume what would've happened and act like it's a reason for anything. besides, seeing as how our backfield was a joke last year a probowl caliber player being inserted would've made more of a difference than upgrading over salaam who played valiantly and gave it all every time.

Sure, having an all-pro free safety would be nice, but safety is not one of the priority positions in the draft. You can't have an all-pro at every position. This year, eight offensive tackles were picked in the first round. How many safeties were picked in the first round?

Think about it.

1 safety. as in, 1 playmaker/high-round pick/above average safety would give us a playmaker at every level of defense. the d'line has a couple, we've got demeco in the middle, corners are both potential playmakers, and a playmaking safety would round it into an all around assault. i see plenty of room for role players on the line, OLBs and the other safety.

according to NFL.com we were 19th against the run, 25th against the pass. about 20th in sacks, last in interceptions but top 10 or so in forcing, recovering and scoring on fumbles. even though numbers are a general indication they certainly don't lie. i remember points where the D locked down running games for short stretches, but never was able to keep passes out of reciever's hands. a LT/RB (which we got in the draft and free agency) won't help any of those numbers, a DE will help the sacks and the run game and maybe even the pass if the the whole line plays really well but certainly wouldn't have an impact on the pass and interceptions the way a safety would.

Originally Posted by Vinny

if we can't stop the run, none of that stuff matters. Stopping the run puts teams in obvious passing situations since it is hard to stay in 2nd (or 3rd) and short and play good defense overall. Okoye was disappointing vs the run last year and has to prove he is a 3 down lineman this season. This will go a long way towards us being a better team defensively.

do you think okam plays for okoye during running situations or just when okoye gets tired? or neither?

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by KJ3

do you think okam plays for okoye during running situations or just when okoye gets tired? or neither?

Technically they play different positions. One is the undertackle (Okoye) and one is the nose tackle (Okam). Travis Johnson played mainly the NT last season, but he can play both positions.

IIRC the team is going to try Okam at the undertackle at times with TJ at NT, but that is only if Okam keeps proving to be athletic.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Technically they play different positions. One is the undertackle (Okoye) and one is the nose tackle (Okam). Travis Johnson played mainly the NT last season, but he can play both positions.

IIRC the team is going to try Okam at the undertackle at times with TJ at NT, but that is only if Okam keeps proving to be athletic.

yea i know, it's a different objective from the same position. either draw a double team and stuff up the run or try to collapse the pocket and while it seems like a balanced attack to have both objectives trying to be accomplished together it's not necessary at all.

btw, up close travis johnson is one big dude. like...thick from head to toe. 6' 3'' 305 doesn't describe him at all.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by KJ3

do you think okam plays for okoye during running situations or just when okoye gets tired? or neither?

I think the Texans see TJ and Okam as being able to play either the under or the over/nose tackle....with Okam more of a nose tackle type right now. They might see Okoye as being able to hold down either spot, but for me with his young age I would think that they would just have him focus more on the under tackle spot right now.

The Texans have also said that now that Mario has his feet underneath him now that they are going to go back to using him at multiple places along the line....maybe even inside. I think what that means is you will see a lot of rotation along the line and that we will see a ton of different line-ups for the front four this year.

[cadams]

man, i hope they don't have him playing tackle at all this year. i don't mind switching him from re to le, but i think he needs to stay on the ends

[kravix]

3rd and 15

Thompson, MW, Amobi, Kalu

Sack.. 4th and 25

[papabear]

Originally Posted by cadams

man, i hope they don't have him playing tackle at all this year. i don't mind switching him from re to le, but i think he needs to stay on the ends

I don't want to see Mario at tackle much either....but a few times a game is enough to keep the offense off balance and guessing. As long as it doesn't slow him down I don't have a problem with them moving him around, but do it just enough to keep the offense honest. I think he can handle it now as oppsosed to his rookie year when he was honestly probably a little overwhelmed.

[southtexan]

Originally Posted by painekiller

So you want to be the Cowboys? Pro Bowl players at every position. All I can say is the mid -80's version of the Oilers had a horrible CB named Dishman, Willie Gault went deep on him at will. He was a joke.

Fast forward a couple years, and he was pro bowl player, why because he matured.

Let Kubiak's and Smith's guys mature, they have completely redone this roster and we have not started their 3rd year. I see potential in these guys. Not all of them will work out, but many will.

BTW I agree the LB is top priority, along with RDE.

I remember him, his name is Chris Dishman, i believe that he was a 3rd Rd. pick, he was very very inmature and playing for Glanville didn't help him much but he matured and became a good player, he later signed with Whashington as a free agent.