The Trenches

[sescoyote]

I have no problem building a defense with a good focus on the DL. I do have a problem with neglecting other areas when the DL is serviceable. We need a stong CB and a safety that is a field general and commands the other team to gameplan around. SS seems to one of the most underrated positions.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by sescoyote

I have no problem building a defense with a good focus on the DL. I do have a problem with neglecting other areas when the DL is serviceable. We need a stong CB and a safety that is a field general and commands the other team to gameplan around. SS seems to one of the most underrated positions.

According to Megan Manfull, our safety position is one of the deepest on the team, what you do not agree?

Will Demps was a pro bowl alternate, CC Brown actually looked solid by the end of the season, we have Glenn Earl, who Kubiak thought was going to have a huge year prior to his injury last season, we have nine-year veteran Nick Ferguson who should be considered a playing coach. Injury made the position one of question marks last year, but we have assembled a group of hybrid safeties. What do I mean by hybrid? Our defense runs on a left and right safety, both guys are expected to have similar skill sets, they are not true cover guys or in the box guys, but in between.

Harrison and Mitchell are both big bodied guys, and Harrison ran a 4.5 and played some cover in college. These guys are pushing for time. Plus add the draft pick Barber, who has shown a very good head for the game.

While I can agree that most have not yet produced to a high level in the NFL, I think the position is not the issue most have it slated to be.

Now get me started on CB, Bennett is going to be a steal, Robinson has the mental strength to get himself back to his preinjury status (yes I sipped the kool-aid, again). The coaches think they can make a player out of Reeves, and the GM paid him pretty good, so he better play well. (BTW Keith pointed out that Reeves contract has an out clause for us if he does not work out).

We drafted a kid I believe will be a solid CB in this league in Molden, so how many more high picks do you want to throw there?

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by painekiller

According to Megan Manfull, our safety position is one of the deepest on the team, what you do not agree?

Will Demps was a pro bowl alternate, CC Brown actually looked solid by the end of the season, we have Glenn Earl, who Kubiak thought was going to have a huge year prior to his injury last season, we have nine-year veteran Nick Ferguson who should be considered a playing coach. Injury made the position one of question marks last year, but we have assembled a group of hybrid safeties. What do I mean by hybrid? Our defense runs on a left and right safety, both guys are expected to have similar skill sets, they are not true cover guys or in the box guys, but in between.

Harrison and Mitchell are both big bodied guys, and Harrison ran a 4.5 and played some cover in college. These guys are pushing for time. Plus add the draft pick Barber, who has shown a very good head for the game.

While I can agree that most have not yet produced to a high level in the NFL, I think the position is not the issue most have it slated to be.

Now get me started on CB, Bennett is going to be a steal, Robinson has the mental strength to get himself back to his preinjury status (yes I sipped the kool-aid, again). The coaches think they can make a player out of Reeves, and the GM paid him pretty good, so he better play well. (BTW Keith pointed out that Reeves contract has an out clause for us if he does not work out).

We drafted a kid I believe will be a solid CB in this league in Molden, so how many more high picks do you want to throw there?

1. i want a probowl safety. demps played well last year but he didn't even sniff probowl to me. i would like to have 2 safeties who have potential exceeding average. demps=average+, brown=average at his best game, earl=average before he was injured for an entire season, ferguson=won't play a single down this year outside of special teams. harrison, mitchell and barber are camp fodder until any of them make it past training camp.

however, if we are going to spend a high pick on d again, i'd take my shot at the best LB available unless diles AND adibi show up this year. i'd say we are a LB, a S, and a healthy dunta away from a hellraising defense.

[edo783]

Originally Posted by KJ3

1. i want a probowl safety. demps played well last year but he didn't even sniff probowl to me. .

IIRC, he was selected last year to the ProBowl as an alternate. That to me is a sniff.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by KJ3

1. i want a probowl safety. demps played well last year but he didn't even sniff probowl to me. i would like to have 2 safeties who have potential exceeding average. demps=average+, brown=average at his best game, earl=average before he was injured for an entire season, ferguson=won't play a single down this year outside of special teams. harrison, mitchell and barber are camp fodder until any of them make it past training camp.

however, if we are going to spend a high pick on d again, i'd take my shot at the best LB available unless diles AND adibi show up this year. i'd say we are a LB, a S, and a healthy dunta away from a hellraising defense.

So you want to be the Cowboys? Pro Bowl players at every position. All I can say is the mid -80's version of the Oilers had a horrible CB named Dishman, Willie Gault went deep on him at will. He was a joke.

Fast forward a couple years, and he was pro bowl player, why because he matured.

Let Kubiak's and Smith's guys mature, they have completely redone this roster and we have not started their 3rd year. I see potential in these guys. Not all of them will work out, but many will.

BTW I agree the LB is top priority, along with RDE.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by edo783

IIRC, he was selected last year to the ProBowl as an alternate. That to me is a sniff.

i meant i don't think he deserved it. not that i had running tallies on every safety in the afc but i just don't think he played probowl caliber safety. he played well, just not probowl well....to me anyway, and who am i to question how probowlers are selected?

Originally Posted by painekiller

So you want to be the Cowboys? Pro Bowl players at every position. All I can say is the mid -80's version of the Oilers had a horrible CB named Dishman, Willie Gault went deep on him at will. He was a joke.

Fast forward a couple years, and he was pro bowl player, why because he matured.

Let Kubiak's and Smith's guys mature, they have completely redone this roster and we have not started their 3rd year. I see potential in these guys. Not all of them will work out, but many will.

BTW I agree the LB is top priority, along with RDE.

i think i was pretty clear with what i wanted...but yea, i'll take an all-star team as long as they are in the right uniform.

...and it's not like we got to see either of the brandons' play. i mean neither one of them got a shake last year and I almost played safety for the texans the way they were going down ...i know one was IR'ed. their guys are starting to surface in the lineups everywhere but the defensive backfield, save fred bennett coming out midway through the year. S is still capserly'ed up with brown/earl and demps was a free agent so...unless you're banking on barber or harrison to develop into something great by the 2009 draft we still need help at S. having a guy like demps is great but it's just that much better to have a playmaker next to him. we've got 'em at every level of D except S mario, amobi on the d'line, demeco LB, dunta and fred CBs and......?

to be honest i wouldn't care if LB, DE, and S were the first 3 selections next year, but i love defense. that gets me going on every play as much as it does when the offense scores. if they really wanted to round out the line with a complete DE not just a pass rusher i say do it. but if they are just looking for a pass rusher...i wouldn't be so thrilled about spending a high pick on it.

[Bigtinylittle]

To me, safety is not one of our top problems. They are:

1. Lack of a consistent pass rush

2. Lack of a consistent running game.

3. Lack of time for QB to get the ball off.

I believe that if we had played with an all-pro free safety all sixteen games last year, we would have still finished with about the same record or maybe a little better.

If we would have played with an-all pro left tackle instead of that free safety, I think we would have definately have made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro weakside DE with Mario on the strong side, I think we would have definately made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro halfback we would definately made the playoffs.

Sure, having an all-pro free safety would be nice, but safety is not one of the priority positions in the draft. You can't have an all-pro at every position. This year, eight offensive tackles were picked in the first round. How many safeties were picked in the first round?

Think about it.

[Vinny]

if we can't stop the run, none of that stuff matters. Stopping the run puts teams in obvious passing situations since it is hard to stay in 2nd (or 3rd) and short and play good defense overall. Okoye was disappointing vs the run last year and has to prove he is a 3 down lineman this season. This will go a long way towards us being a better team defensively.

[kravix]

Originally Posted by Bigtinylittle

To me, safety is not one of our top problems. They are:

1. Lack of a consistent pass rush

2. Lack of a consistent running game.

3. Lack of time for QB to get the ball off.

I believe that if we had played with an all-pro free safety all sixteen games last year, we would have still finished with about the same record or maybe a little better.

If we would have played with an-all pro left tackle instead of that free safety, I think we would have definately have made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro weakside DE with Mario on the strong side, I think we would have definately made the playoffs.

If we would have played with an all-pro halfback we would definately made the playoffs.

Sure, having an all-pro free safety would be nice, but safety is not one of the priority positions in the draft. You can't have an all-pro at every position. This year, eight offensive tackles were picked in the first round. How many safeties were picked in the first round?

Think about it.

I cannot agree with those two. I think that the def would have looked better with even a healthy Weaver let alone an all pro, but there was way too much shifting in the def backfield because of injuries and poor play for one DE to make up for that.

The other.. While Salaam isnt a pro bowler, he is by no means a revolving door or a loss at LT. I would peg him average, but better than any LT we have had to date. Alot of pressure came up the middle because Flanny couldnt block to save his life. They actually ran the ball pretty good to the outside left edge. Our off was even at the tops of the ranks in long passes.

The off woes came from the lack of a running game. Green got hurt, but still suited up several games and played a few. Dayne actually did better than I thought he would, but he isnt an every down back and he is typically better late in games and later in the season because def arent so fresh. Couple that with a missing AJ, the other recievers stepped up and did ok but they arent AJ, hurt Schaub, and then off lineman dropping like flies and viola.. sub par off.

The biggest thing that hurt the team last year was injuries. Because we didnt have depth. This year the depth is better all around. Injuries will happen but they wont hurt as much. That is the biggest thing that will mean a play off spot and just missing it.

[southtexan]

Originally Posted by painekiller

So you want to be the Cowboys? Pro Bowl players at every position. All I can say is the mid -80's version of the Oilers had a horrible CB named Dishman, Willie Gault went deep on him at will. He was a joke.

Fast forward a couple years, and he was pro bowl player, why because he matured.

Let Kubiak's and Smith's guys mature, they have completely redone this roster and we have not started their 3rd year. I see potential in these guys. Not all of them will work out, but many will.

BTW I agree the LB is top priority, along with RDE.

I remember him, his name is Chris Dishman, i believe that he was a 3rd Rd. pick, he was very very inmature and playing for Glanville didn't help him much but he matured and became a good player, he later signed with Whashington as a free agent.

[sescoyote]

Originally Posted by painekiller

According to Megan Manfull, our safety position is one of the deepest on the team, what you do not agree?

Oh, ok, she's the one person I'd look for when trying to scope a team. not. We need a game changer at this position, someone that is aggressive enough to make plays yet good enough to overcome gambles. We need someone to punish runners, blitz the QB and break up the pass. I don't see anyone at that position that can do this.

[Bigtinylittle]

I could be wrong, and I'm not really trying to start an argument on this, but I'm going to give my thoughts about free safety in general and free safety as the Texans view it.

First, blitzing. Yes, some teams occasionally blitz a free safety, and if he doesn't get anywhere near the qb and the qb has time to throw, then the cornerbacks will have no help at all and a touchdown will very possibly be the result. But guess what? The average fan is not going to notice that the free safety failed, and they are probably more likely to blame the cb who they see chasing the receiver down the field.

Second, if the free safety was in a position where he was supposed to be, but the cornerback gets beaten badly on a play, the safety is often going to be the man who has to come over and limit the result. But guess what? The average fan sees the safety coming over late and it looks like he must be slow. Even if he isn't. If a free safety is in the middle of the field and a cb gets beaten badly, the difference in speed between a free safety with average speed and one with better than average speed is just a couple of steps.

Third, in out system, and until it changes, the coaches do NOT like to blitz. They want the pressure to come from the front four. There are very few times a game when this isn't the case.

Demeco Ryans is by general agreement an all-pro caliber MLB. But guess what? In our system he rarely blitzes even though by most expert opinion he is very good at it. The average fan may criticize our system and want it changed, but it is the system the coaches believe in, apparently even Kubiak or he would get a DC who used a different system. My point? Even if we had a free safety who was very good at blitzing, and I'm not saying Demps isn't good at it, we probably would rarely use the free safety blitz.

Fourth, the average fan overvalues the free safety position. It's the one he sees at the end of the play. He doesn't see the linebacker or lineman knocked on his ass at the line of scrimmage. He doesn't see all the other stuff that goes wrong on the play. He just sees the free safety.

Summing up, I don't think Kubiak is worried at all about the free safety position this year. Sure he would like to have an all-pro at every position. What coach wouldn't? But he expects to get pretty solid play at the position and I think he will. And like Kubiak, I'll be content with that too.

I just think that fans way overrate the free safety position. It just isn't one of the key positions on the team. If it was, free safety salaries would be through the roof like QB salaries and LT salaries, etc. When was the last time a free safety was the overall number one pick in the draft?

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by Bigtinylittle

Third, in out system, and until it changes, the coaches do NOT like to blitz. They want the pressure to come from the front four. There are very few times a game when this isn't the case.

i'm okay with the thought of pressure coming from the line, coverage/man everywhere else. except when it doesn't work during a game for 3 quarters straight yet no change in the gameplan occurs. that's not professional, that's somewhere far below. expecting change based on nothing is silly.

maybe blitzing is just the easiest factor to jump on, but i think what we (the people who want to see our defense improve as much as the offense did) really want to see is a more aggressive set-up. CB's jamming hard LB's and DT's making the HBDraw a non-option, S's taking exception to WR's and TE's running routes over the middle. to me, defense is half ability, half attitude and we've got our share of ability but no one really stands in the way and says "f that, NOBODY is getting past me." make the opposing offense hurt some instead of hurting the fans to watch.

i think i read somewhere that we were either tops or top 3 or so in first downs given up. that's not aggressive at all...that's a very, very reactionary defense getting taken advantage of. less waiting for the action to come to us, more forcing the action on them!!

Demeco Ryans is by general agreement an all-pro caliber MLB. But guess what? In our system he rarely blitzes even though by most expert opinion he is very good at it. The average fan may criticize our system and want it changed, but it is the system the coaches believe in, apparently even Kubiak or he would get a DC who used a different system. My point? Even if we had a free safety who was very good at blitzing, and I'm not saying Demps isn't good at it, we probably would rarely use the free safety blitz.

Fourth, the average fan overvalues the free safety position. It's the one he sees at the end of the play. He doesn't see the linebacker or lineman knocked on his ass at the line of scrimmage. He doesn't see all the other stuff that goes wrong on the play. He just sees the free safety.

how many average fans post on message boards? i'd say very few. and if demeco is so widely regarded as an excellent blitzing option (we all saw the sack, FF, recovery and TD) NOT using that as a weapon is stupid too. if we aren't going to use his talents to make this defense and team better then we need to trade him away immediately because he is wasting his time here.

Summing up, I don't think Kubiak is worried at all about the free safety position this year. Sure he would like to have an all-pro at every position. What coach wouldn't? But he expects to get pretty solid play at the position and I think he will. And like Kubiak, I'll be content with that too.

I just think that fans way overrate the free safety position. It just isn't one of the key positions on the team. If it was, free safety salaries would be through the roof like QB salaries and LT salaries, etc. When was the last time a free safety was the overall number one pick in the draft?

every position is important and serves purposes. if free safety didn't matter then i would be in uniform right now. and the number one pick doesn't matter half the time anyway right alex smith, jamarcus russell, DAVID CARR, vick mexico, tim couch so your point there is pretty weak.

and if kubiak ISN'T worried about how the S are going to play this year he needs to be fired NOW! they were by far the worst group of the team last year and the two things they did to fix it was draft a 6th round guy who maybe makes the team and waited for a guy to be healthy again who is borderline between starter and depth.

i'm not trying to start an argument either, i just felt it needed to be said.

[kravix]

FS is overrated in our def because supposedly we employ LS RS instead of FS SS. The coaches have said that they want both safeties to play the pass and run equally well. You do catch the coaches refering to FS or SS at times.

Our safeties may have been the worst part of the secondary, but look at how many different players we had starting. Good safeties cannot make up completely for bad CB play, they have other resposibilites on the field also.

Late in the year once the secondary began to come together again and there was some stability back there, we did blitz more. When Demeco is hands down the best player in run support and pass support it is hard to blitz him with out giving up way too much of your def. I understand that blitzing always leaves a hole, but the hole that Demeco would have left last year was big enough for two players.

I dont know if we will ever see an extremly aggresive def with Kubiak.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by kravix

Our safeties may have been the worst part of the secondary, but look at how many different players we had starting. Good safeties cannot make up completely for bad CB play, they have other resposibilites on the field also.

bad CB play is one thing, but how many times do we have to watch a TE roaming around the middle of the field with 10 yards of space in every direction around him? it happened a whole lot.

Late in the year once the secondary began to come together again and there was some stability back there, we did blitz more. When Demeco is hands down the best player in run support and pass support it is hard to blitz him with out giving up way too much of your def. I understand that blitzing always leaves a hole, but the hole that Demeco would have left last year was big enough for two players.

I dont know if we will ever see an extremly aggresive def with Kubiak.

i'm not looking for giants or eagles blitzing the crap out of crap blitzing. i'm not looking for any extremes (including the extreme we had of never changing anything). i would like to see a balance to every guy standing in the same place making the same reads and getting the same beatings. blitz demeco once a game because jeez...every time he did something good happens. vanilla defense proved itself to be very pourous, very weak, and unable to stop meager offenses (especially in crunchtime). come out blitzing 7 in the first quarter and hold that threat above the offenses' head the whole game. blitz a corner once a millenium. stack the line with 8 or 9 guys and have them all drop back. use something besides base 4-3...go nickel or dime every now and again. do something to make the offense feel like it can't call every play in the book.

[Bigtinylittle]

Something I noticed last year which surprised me is that the defense seemed to take a step backward compared to the last half of the previous year. I find that a bit puzzling. I was really expecting the defense to statistically outperform the offense last year and that didn't come anywhere close to happening.

Considering that Mario elevated his play greatly over his rookie year, it is even more puzzling. Injurywise, we lost our first and second string strong safeties for almost the whole year, we lost our premier cornerback for half the year, and Weaver was below par because of his shoulder. Also Ryans was apparently banged up pretty good toward the end of the season.Those injuries surely hurt us, but we obviously had injuries the year before too, yet we took a step backward. I have tried hard to understand why, and I really can't put my finger on it.

We definately took a step back against the run. Maybe Okoye was part of the problem. Maybe he wasn't holding up well at the point of attack. If that is the case, I hope he has done some bigtime work in the weight room to help remedy that.

Maybe Weaver was even worse than his statistics reveal. Maybe he really pulled us down badly last year.

I agree that we didn't seem agressive last year. But one thing I noticed was that when we blitzed, the other team's offense almost always seemed to be able to contain our rush. I guess it's a personnel problem, but maybe not. One thing is for sure: if you blitz and you still don't get pressure, you are in for a long afternoon.

In this year's draft, we added a cornerback who is supposed to be excellent at jamming recievers at the line. That's a good sign. We added an OLB who is supposed to be able to be a very solid blitzer. That's another good sign.

We added a 330 pounder at DT who is supposed to have very good speed for his size. That should help us in third and short situations, which we didn't play well in at all last year. I have a hunch that Okam's limitation is going to be endurance, but if we are using him mostly as a situational player, his endurance may not be a problem. That's another good sign.

I expect all three of those rookies to get playing time this season and I'm expecting them to make us more agressive.

I think one of the big keys is going to be Okoye. If he takes that big step up and becomes the player we drafted him to be, if Thompson or someone else can give us a bit of an edge presence opposite Mario, and if Robinson gan get back to his old self, I think we could have an above average NFL defense this year. And if our future drafts continue to be as good as our first two were, we could easily get to be an elite one.