Harrison and Barber

[barrett]

Barber's limited emergence should not change things at all. He is simply another SS for us. He may slightly upgrade Brown/earl/harrison/fill-in-the-blank, but we still need a safety with Range and ball skills. Wilson played OK and I was a big fan of his during the season. I think he was one of the big keys to turning everything around, but if anything his impact should show how much we need this kind of player, not convince anyone we have the hole filled with an over-achieving journeyman nearing the end of his career.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by barrett

Barber's limited emergence should not change things at all. He is simply another SS for us. He may slightly upgrade Brown/earl/harrison/fill-in-the-blank, but we still need a safety with Range and ball skills. Wilson played OK and I was a big fan of his during the season. I think he was one of the big keys to turning everything around, but if anything his impact should show how much we need this kind of player, not convince anyone we have the hole filled with an over-achieving journeyman nearing the end of his career.

He's 28. That's "experienced". I'd say he (Wilson) has a couple of more years of over-achieving left in him. OTOH, the others ages are:

Barber 22
Harrison 24
CC Brown 25
Demps 29
Ferguson 34

I'd say 2 to 3 of those are gone next year.....

[Bigtinylittle]

I agree with Arky on this one. I would not call 28 over the hill at any position with the possible exception of running back.

I believe the thinking of Kubiak differs from most fans when it comes to FS. I think the FS safety is one of the most exposed positions on the defense, so most fans really notice it, especially on long pass plays. What they don't notice is any deficiences he might have against the run. Most ball-hawking safeties are probably not also going to be great against the run, and I don't think Kubes is looking for one of those.

With our first round pick we might be able to get a ball hawking FS who also plays the run well, but if what we already have is servicable, then I think Kubiak uses that pick for some other position which more desperately needs shoring up. For example, a LB, a speedy DE, a real NT, or another great ZBS running back to go with Slaton. If we use our number one for FS. I will be surprised. If we use a second or a third for one, he may not be better than what we alrady have. At least not next year, which if I remember is a make or break year for Kubiak. If we don't post a winning record next season, he will follow Richard Smith out the door.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Bigtinylittle

I agree with Arky on this one. I would not call 28 over the hill at any position with the possible exception of running back.

I believe the thinking of Kubiak differs from most fans when it comes to FS. I think the FS safety is one of the most exposed positions on the defense, so most fans really notice it, especially on long pass plays. What they don't notice is any deficiences he might have against the run. Most ball-hawking safeties are probably not also going to be great against the run, and I don't think Kubes is looking for one of those.

With our first round pick we might be able to get a ball hawking FS who also plays the run well, but if what we already have is servicable, then I think Kubiak uses that pick for some other position which more desperately needs shoring up. For example, a LB, a speedy DE, a real NT, or another great ZBS running back to go with Slaton. If we use our number one for FS. I will be surprised. If we use a second or a third for one, he may not be better than what we alrady have. At least not next year, which if I remember is a make or break year for Kubiak. If we don't post a winning record next season, he will follow Richard Smith out the door.

Regarding Wilson, does anyone think his best football is ahead of him?

As for another position "more desperately" needing help, you are nuts. We are Mediocre and Terrible at our safety spots. There is not a position on our roster that has been a bigger hole, and its been that way our entire existence.

As for your argument about ball-hawking/run stuffing etc... 3 of the 5 most valuable defensive players in the NFL are Safeties (polamalu, sanders, reed). They are far more valuable than any CB or 4-3 LB. Only a handful of pass rushers (ware and maybe harrison), come close to the impact of these 3 guys. DT probably is #3 in terms of importance, but they are the least likely defensive position to help next year (your own argument).

They NFL is a passing league these days and the impact of the MLB is greatly diminished. The FS is the new captain and leader of the NFL defense, and the best defenses show this. So if we can get a great FS or a Demarcus Ware type edge guy I am fine with either. No other defensive position has close to the impact though, and I don't see us going offense.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by barrett

Regarding Wilson, does anyone think his best football is ahead of him?

Statistically, his production (for the Texans) was as it was in his first 3 years for New England. A couple of less games, a couple of less INT's... I don't see any reason why he can't maintain that another year or two... At the very least, he's a solid backup...

As for another position "more desperately" needing help, you are nuts. We are Mediocre and Terrible at our safety spots.

I'll go with mediocre but I don't believe terrible applies to Barber/Wilson/Ferguson.

There is not a position on our roster that has been a bigger hole, and its been that way our entire existence.

Tell me about it. If the Texans draft another safety, that'll make 5 safeties in 6 drafts (Hello Glen Earl, CC Brown, Harrison and Barber). Maybe they can get it right this time?

.......... So if we can get a great FS or a Demarcus Ware type edge guy I am fine with either. No other defensive position has close to the impact though, and I don't see us going offense.

Well, great FS's or Damarcus Ware's don't grow on trees and I think you know that... I think it'll take a first round pick (maybe a 2nd) to find someone of that quality. An edge rusher or wild man linebacker would be my choice. They probably *will* get another safety but I'm not holding my breath on an early rounder... Plus there are needs elsewhere..... i.e. a complimentary/backup RB for Slaton. If Slaton got injured, who could fill in?

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Arky

Statistically, his production (for the Texans) was as it was in his first 3 years for New England. A couple of less games, a couple of less INT's... I don't see any reason why he can't maintain that another year or two... At the very least, he's a solid backup...



I'll go with mediocre but I don't believe terrible applies to Barber/Wilson/Ferguson.



Tell me about it. If the Texans draft another safety, that'll make 5 safeties in 6 drafts (Hello Glen Earl, CC Brown, Harrison and Barber). Maybe they can get it right this time?



Well, great FS's or Damarcus Ware's don't grow on trees and I think you know that... I think it'll take a first round pick (maybe a 2nd) to find someone of that quality. An edge rusher or wild man linebacker would be my choice. They probably *will* get another safety but I'm not holding my breath on an early rounder... Plus there are needs elsewhere..... i.e. a complimentary/backup RB for Slaton. If Slaton got injured, who could fill in?

No way does another 4-3 LB have as big an impact. In the 4-3 the LB position is not very important. LBs in general are dropping in importance as the league leans more and more towards the passing game. The only big impact LBs left in the NFL are 3-4 pass rushers. Not one 4-3 LB made the probowl in the AFC this year. And of the good defenses that run a 4-3, it is not LB they are strong at. The 4-3 in its current form is a DL and Secondary dominated defense. It makes no sense to draft another LB right now with a top pick.

Now if we can get what we think is a GREAT edge rusher at DE I am fine with that. Pass rush is probably the number one key to a good defense and we need help there. If not then I say FS.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by barrett

No way does another 4-3 LB have as big an impact. In the 4-3 the LB position is not very important. LBs in general are dropping in importance as the league leans more and more towards the passing game. The only big impact LBs left in the NFL are 3-4 pass rushers. Not one 4-3 LB made the probowl in the AFC this year. And of the good defenses that run a 4-3, it is not LB they are strong at. The 4-3 in its current form is a DL and Secondary dominated defense. It makes no sense to draft another LB right now with a top pick.

Now if we can get what we think is a GREAT edge rusher at DE I am fine with that. Pass rush is probably the number one key to a good defense and we need help there. If not then I say FS.

We'll see........

[Bigtinylittle]

Originally Posted by barrett

Regarding Wilson, does anyone think his best football is ahead of him?

As for another position "more desperately" needing help, you are nuts. We are Mediocre and Terrible at our safety spots. There is not a position on our roster that has been a bigger hole, and its been that way our entire existence.

As for your argument about ball-hawking/run stuffing etc... 3 of the 5 most valuable defensive players in the NFL are Safeties (polamalu, sanders, reed). They are far more valuable than any CB or 4-3 LB. Only a handful of pass rushers (ware and maybe harrison), come close to the impact of these 3 guys. DT probably is #3 in terms of importance, but they are the least likely defensive position to help next year (your own argument).

They NFL is a passing league these days and the impact of the MLB is greatly diminished. The FS is the new captain and leader of the NFL defense, and the best defenses show this. So if we can get a great FS or a Demarcus Ware type edge guy I am fine with either. No other defensive position has close to the impact though, and I don't see us going offense.

I just looked up last years draft and apparently there aren't many teams that consider free safety the most critical position in today's NFL. Kenny Phillips was the first safety picked, and he was only the 31st player picked. Picked ahead of him were 12 other defensive players, all at positions where we need help (DT,DE,LB) There were also 5 RB's picked before Phillips. In the second round there was only one safety drafted. As I said before, I'll be surprised if we go safety in the first.

[NBT]

Maybe the safeties are not drafted originally all that highly, but as you have just pointed out above, the best ones are the hubs of their respective defensive teams. In retrospect maybe they should be drafted higher and more often too. Or just maybe they are the hardest position to judge from college to pros?

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Bigtinylittle

I just looked up last years draft and apparently there aren't many teams that consider free safety the most critical position in today's NFL. Kenny Phillips was the first safety picked, and he was only the 31st player picked. Picked ahead of him were 12 other defensive players, all at positions where we need help (DT,DE,LB) There were also 5 RB's picked before Phillips. In the second round there was only one safety drafted. As I said before, I'll be surprised if we go safety in the first.

List for me the defensive players who impact a game more than Bob Sanders, Troy Polamalu, and Ed Reed.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by barrett

List for me the defensive players who impact a game more than Bob Sanders, Troy Polamalu, and Ed Reed.

You could say that about a lot of positions.

List offensive players who impact that game more than Peyton Manning, Randy Moss, or Brian Westbrook. But, drafting drafting a player that plays a certain position doesn't guarantee you will get the impact that Ed Reed or Peyton Manning provide.

While it would be nice to get an Ed Reed, you could just as easily get a Donte Whitner.

And to answer your question; Albert Haynesworth.

[jppaul]

Personally after seeing the Rose Bowl I would draft Mays at 15, provided of course that he was still around, which if what Kirk Herbstriet said about Mays running a 4.28 at 225 pounds, he might not be. If that was true he would probably go top 10 like Sean Taylor.

Did anybody else see his hit on Norwood and his own teammate? I can count on one hand collisions, that I have seen, more violent than that. Unbelievable.

[barrett]

agreed. I have wanted a safety for a while but I didn't know enough about draft prospects to say who. After tonight he seems to fit the bill. He plays a great centerfield and has good range against the passing game, but he clearly comes up and hits with the best of them.