2009 needs

[NBT]

Originally Posted by painekiller

We need to upgrade the defense and fast. At the same time we need depth.

Playing with a list that will change before the draft I came up with a mock draft:
1 Orakpo DE
2 BJ Raji DT
3 Zack Follett LB
4 Nick Harris S
5 Ron Brace DT
6 Chase Daniel QB
7 Jorvorskie Lane RB/FB

DEs Williams, Cochran, Orakpo, Bulman, (Nading PS)
DTs Okoye, Johnson, Raji, Robinson, Brace
Lbs Adibi, Ryans, Diles, Follett, Bentley Coley
CBs Robinson, Reeves, Bennett, Molden
S Ferguson, Wilson, Harris, Barber,

Hey it's a young front 7, but they should be able to get to the RB.

Orakpo just won the Lombardi Award. He is projected to go in the top 10, if not the top 5. Do you advocate a tradeup to get Orakpo, PK? We will most likely draft from 12 to about the number 18 spot we held last year. I know I have steadfastly lobbied against trading up in the past, but this JUST might be the exception to the rule. BUT then we wouldn't be able to draft Raji, whom I have come to covet like you do.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by NBT

Orakpo just won the Lombardi Award. He is projected to go in the top 10, if not the top 5. Do you advocate a tradeup to get Orakpo, PK? We will most likely draft from 12 to about the number 18 spot we held last year. I know I have steadfastly lobbied against trading up in the past, but this JUST might be the exception to the rule. BUT then we wouldn't be able to draft Raji, whom I have come to covet like you do.

I would bet my house Orakpo isn't a top 5 pick. To the contrary, I would put good money that he falls to the late first or second round.

His frame is essentially maxed out, meaning he doesn't have that high ceiling potential a lot of early first rounders have. He also is relatively weak against the run. You get what you see with him, but he's not a guy that's going to put on 10 more pounds of muscle or someone who's still reaching his potential. For that reason, I think he's much more likely to fall.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I would bet my house Orakpo isn't a top 5 pick. To the contrary, I would put good money that he falls to the late first or second round.

His frame is essentially maxed out, meaning he doesn't have that high ceiling potential a lot of early first rounders have. He also is relatively weak against the run. You get what you see with him, but he's not a guy that's going to put on 10 more pounds of muscle or someone who's still reaching his potential. For that reason, I think he's much more likely to fall.

I don't know if he's maxed out or not, but I have heard some people propose moving him to LB.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I would bet my house Orakpo isn't a top 5 pick. To the contrary, I would put good money that he falls to the late first or second round.

His frame is essentially maxed out, meaning he doesn't have that high ceiling potential a lot of early first rounders have. He also is relatively weak against the run. You get what you see with him, but he's not a guy that's going to put on 10 more pounds of muscle or someone who's still reaching his potential. For that reason, I think he's much more likely to fall.

I don't know where he goes in the draft, but you are making this stuff up. His frame won't hurt him at all. I ask you which pass rushing DE fell after his senior season for being 260?

260 is plenty big to rush the passer in the NFL. Not to mention he is 6'4". That makes him bigger than either of the Colts great DEs Freeney and Mathis.

Orakpo may fall, I don't know enough about him to say either way, and it will depend on the combine for him like anyone else. But it won't have anything to do with being too small.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by barrett

I don't know where he goes in the draft, but you are making this stuff up. His frame won't hurt him at all. I ask you which pass rushing DE fell after his senior season for being 260?

260 is plenty big to rush the passer in the NFL. Not to mention he is 6'4". That makes him bigger than either of the Colts great DEs Freeney and Mathis.

Orakpo may fall, I don't know enough about him to say either way, and it will depend on the combine for him like anyone else. But it won't have anything to do with being too small.

Show me where I said he's too small. You're mischaracterizing my argument.

He's not a "natural" 260. He's very cut and bulked up, but his frame is maxed out. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I am saying that's something I think will make him more prone to falling than players who have a bigger perceived upside.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

Show me where I said he's too small. You're mischaracterizing my argument.

He's not a "natural" 260. He's very cut and bulked up, but his frame is maxed out. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I am saying that's something I think will make him more prone to falling than players who have a bigger perceived upside.

How do you figure his frame is maxed out. In addition to being heavier than the other prospects he is also taller (more room to fill out). Either way it is irrelevant if you think he is maxed out because he is already more than big enough to play the position and doesn't need to grow another pound.

Again, when has a pass rushing DE of his size ever been down graded postseason because of concerns about their frame?

[nero THE zero]

Have you ever seen him? He's ridiculously muscular. Believe me, there's no more room for growth on his body.

And, again, you're mischaracterizing my argument; I never said there's concern about his frame. I said he is prone to dropping because he doesn't have the ceiling that top 5 picks tend to have. In that respect he's analogous to DeMeco; a productive college player who's very good, but doesn't have that perceived elite potential.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

Have you ever seen him? He's ridiculously muscular. Believe me, there's no more room for growth on his body.

And, again, you're mischaracterizing my argument; I never said there's concern about his frame. I said he is prone to dropping because he doesn't have the ceiling that top 5 picks tend to have. In that respect he's analogous to DeMeco; a productive college player who's very good, but doesn't have that perceived elite potential.

He and Demeco are not analagous. Demeco was small and slow (top end 40 time slow). Neither of those things can be improved. Thus the "low ceiling" argument. Orakpo is ALREADY plenty big, so nobody is going to care if he can get bigger. He doesn't need to. This would be like saying a CB is going to fall because he runs a 4.2 and they know he can't get faster.

Again, I ask for an example of a DE who got this label and fell in the postseason.

[NBT]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I would bet my house Orakpo isn't a top 5 pick. To the contrary, I would put good money that he falls to the late first or second round.

His frame is essentially maxed out, meaning he doesn't have that high ceiling potential a lot of early first rounders have. He also is relatively weak against the run. You get what you see with him, but he's not a guy that's going to put on 10 more pounds of muscle or someone who's still reaching his potential. For that reason, I think he's much more likely to fall.

Do you want me to remember you said this after the Draft? What is your house worth?

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by NBT

Orakpo just won the Lombardi Award. He is projected to go in the top 10, if not the top 5. Do you advocate a tradeup to get Orakpo, PK? We will most likely draft from 12 to about the number 18 spot we held last year. I know I have steadfastly lobbied against trading up in the past, but this JUST might be the exception to the rule. BUT then we wouldn't be able to draft Raji, whom I have come to covet like you do.

No, I would not trade up for Orakpo. Selvie is just about the same player and may be available at our pick.

I will jump in here on the side of Nero in the arguement, well kinda.

Orakpo is a one trick pony, a very desirable trick, but a specialist. At 260, he has little room to get larger, hence to be considered a normal everydown DE, Frenny is the expection.

I see Orakpo as a Merriman type, someone that goes into the 3-4 and excels because he does not have to concern himself with the run.

If I had only one hole and that was DE, then I would not have problem taking a pass rushing only DE in the 1st. Do I prefer it, no.

[NBT]

I would hope that Orapko would fall past #10, or #15, or even #20. But Tim Bullman, with his 4 sacks has shown that he can be the regular RDE, so Orapko could be the designated passrusher on 3rd and 4th down. Of course that is just my opinion at this moment, subject to change with events.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by NBT

I would hope that Orapko would fall past #10, or #15, or even #20. But Tim Bullman, with his 4 sacks has shown that he can be the regular RDE, so Orapko could be the designated passrusher on 3rd and 4th down. Of course that is just my opinion at this moment, subject to change with events.

I think we definitely need a 3rd down specialist, but I don't know how we could justify taking one in the first when we have needs to fill on positions that play all 3 downs.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I think we definitely need a 3rd down specialist, but I don't know how we could justify taking one in the first when we have needs to fill on positions that play all 3 downs.

I totally agree with this. I would think a one dimensional edge rusher to field opposite of Mario could be had in the 3/4/5 round. I hope that the first two rounds address DT and S.

overall
1 and 2 - DT and S
3/4/5 - big RB, Edge Rusher, Interior OL, maybe a mobile QB if we fall in love with one

6/7 - great special teamers, one of whom plays MLB.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by barrett

I totally agree with this. I would think a one dimensional edge rusher to field opposite of Mario could be had in the 3/4/5 round. I hope that the first two rounds address DT and S.

overall
1 and 2 - DT and S
3/4/5 - big RB, Edge Rusher, Interior OL, maybe a mobile QB if we fall in love with one

6/7 - great special teamers, one of whom plays MLB.

Agreed for the most part.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of a safety, but I'd still rather have a LB. Who knows who Diles will come back from his injury? And he was definitely an upgradeable player as it stood pre-injury. Bentley is nice depth, as is Diles, but I think our SLB position could use a first round talent.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

Agreed for the most part.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of a safety, but I'd still rather have a LB. Who knows who Diles will come back from his injury? And he was definitely an upgradeable player as it stood pre-injury. Bentley is nice depth, as is Diles, but I think our SLB position could use a first round talent.

Where's Roy when we need him. The reason given for the drop of SAM LB in importance is because he is a 2 down player. Most teams remove the SAM for nickle packages and against team like the Colts the SAM is not on the field very often. So in turn teams do not like tie up valuable 1st money in a guy the offense can scheme off the field very easily.

[NBT]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

Agreed for the most part.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of a safety, but I'd still rather have a LB. Who knows who Diles will come back from his injury? And he was definitely an upgradeable player as it stood pre-injury. Bentley is nice depth, as is Diles, but I think our SLB position could use a first round talent.

Why not let DeMeco play his natural position of WLB, and draft a MLB like Laurainitis, or Mauluga? Diles will be fine at SLB. Bentley can back up all 3 LB positions. Adibi could be experimented with at SS!

[NBT]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I think we definitely need a 3rd down specialist, but I don't know how we could justify taking one in the first when we have needs to fill on positions that play all 3 downs.

Aaahh, you justify it by the increased number of sacks, and the intimidation of the opposing QB.