Freeman: Would you?

popanot · #1 09-25-2013, 03:06 PM

I know this will never happen, so this post is really intended for discussion.

Now that TB has benched Freeman and he's supposedly on the block, if his salary wasn't such a problem and the possibility was there, would you send a mid-to-late round or conditional pick to TB for him?

I know he's struggled lately and has some issues, but he's young, big, has a decent arm, can move a bit and showed flashes last year of being really good. He seems to fit that size mold Kubiak likes.

I think I'd do it if it were at all possible and he'd be willing to negotiate a cap friendly 2-3yr deal. Not saying we get him to start this year over Schaub, but I'd prefer him in the pipeline over Yates or Keenum. His high-side potential exceeds those two, IMO. Albeit, I haven't watched many TB games, but I would like to believe Kubiak could fix any issues he has.

barrett · #2 09-25-2013, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popanot

I know this will never happen, so this post is really intended for discussion.

Now that TB has benched Freeman and he's supposedly on the block, if his salary wasn't such a problem and the possibility was there, would you send a mid-to-late round or conditional pick to TB for him?

I know he's struggled lately and has some issues, but he's young, big, has a decent arm, can move a bit and showed flashes last year of being really good. He seems to fit that size mold Kubiak likes.

I think I'd do it if it were at all possible and he'd be willing to negotiate a cap friendly 2-3yr deal. Not saying we get him to start this year over Schaub, but I'd prefer him in the pipeline over Yates or Keenum. His high-side potential exceeds those two, IMO. Albeit, I haven't watched many TB games, but I would like to believe Kubiak could fix any issues he has.

I would. I am higher on Kubiak's ability with QBs than I am on any other portion of his job. Not to mention you are clearly buying low. Plus the guy was despised by his former coach and will be ready to latch onto anybody new and should be very coachable because of that. And he obviously has physical tools.

WMH · #3 09-25-2013, 03:24 PM

I would not, especially with the talent coming out in this years QB class. I just assume spend a #1/#2 next April, let them tutor behind Schaub for a year, then cut him loose.

Despite having a big arm, I've never watched any game that Freeman's impressed me with. To each his own, but I'd rather Kubiak mentor a new guy than someone that's already been abused in this league.

cadams · #4 09-25-2013, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMH

I would not, especially with the talent coming out in this years QB class. I just assume spend a #1/#2 next April, let them tutor behind Schaub for a year, then cut him loose.

Despite having a big arm, I've never watched any game that Freeman's impressed me with. To each his own, but I'd rather Kubiak mentor a new guy than someone that's already been abused in this league.

agree .

HPF Bob · #5 09-25-2013, 06:41 PM

I don't see anything wrong with promoting Yates first. He showed promise when pressed into service as a rookie and he's already familiar with everything. IMO, we would never get serious about this unless/until it was decided Schaub isn't the guy and since we sunk a lot of cap money into Schaub, I don't see that happening anytime in the future.

barrett · #6 09-25-2013, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

I don't see anything wrong with promoting Yates first. He showed promise when pressed into service as a rookie and he's already familiar with everything. IMO, we would never get serious about this unless/until it was decided Schaub isn't the guy and since we sunk a lot of cap money into Schaub, I don't see that happening anytime in the future.

I agree it's unrealistic. But the original thread agreed to that and asked hypothetically. And will never happen.

I think Yates has come along nicely but I'v never seen any reason to think he is more than a 2nd Schaub at best (Good but not great). He just isn't that talented. If we are replacing Schaub in a hypothetical, I want a guy with all the tools, not another overachiever with limitations. If we ever replace schaub it better be for a real upgrade and not Yates.

popanot · #7 09-26-2013, 08:06 AM

I don't see Yates as anything but a career backup. I'm not sure how much of the preseason competition for QB #2 was media/fan hype, but I think it was pretty clear there WAS a competition going on, which leads me to believe Kubiak isn't even sold on Yates being the long-term answer.

The way I look at it is, we're not likely to have a high #1 over the next few years to get one of the top QB prospects and Freeman is young, has starter experience and has shown flashes of being very good. I believe a change of scenery and Kubiak could fix what ails him (or at least it's worth a try).

Honestly, I just don't see where the Texans would have the opportunity to get Schaub's future replacement in the pipeline that has the youth, experience and measurable that Freeman brings. You can always hope to catch lightning in a bottle like Wilson, Keapernick and Brees, but there's no guarantee of it. If the Redskins called tomorrow and said they'd send Cousins to us for a #2 I'd jump on that over Freeman, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Like I said, if it were even a remotely possibility and Freeman would re-do and sign a cap-friendly contract, I'd ship Yates and a #5 to TB in a heartbeat. Elevate Keenum to #2 for the rest of this year and let Freeman sit and learn the system and get his head on straight.

HPF Bob · #8 09-26-2013, 09:03 AM

I thought Freeman was overrated in the draft and have seen nothing since to change my mind. He wasn't that good at Kansas State. He hasn't been that good at Tampa Bay. He gets selected based on tools but to actually win in this league you need more than tools.

Joshua · #9 09-26-2013, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

I thought Freeman was overrated in the draft and have seen nothing since to change my mind. He wasn't that good at Kansas State. He hasn't been that good at Tampa Bay. He gets selected based on tools but to actually win in this league you need more than tools.

I don't have a strong feeling on Freeman one way or the other, but he's had a couple decent years in Tampa. In 2010 (his 2nd year), he threw for over 3,400 yards with 25 TDs and only 6 picks. Last year, he threw for over 4,000 yards with 27 TDs and 17 picks. While not stellar, that's not garbage, and he was pretty comparable to Schaub last year (4,000 yards with 22 TDs and 12 picks). If you think Freeman deserves a spot on the trash heap, a very good argument could be made that Schaub belongs beside him.

HPF Bob · #10 09-26-2013, 03:13 PM

We bitch and moan about every pick Schaub throws and then when somebody who threw five more of them last year than he did is about to be dumped, we're in a hurry to give up draft picks to get him?

Schaub is good enough for us to win 75% of our games but we want somebody who'll make it 90% so we can beat teams like the Patriots, Ravens and Broncos (not to mention the Colts). Does Freeman look like that guy? Really?

I think I'd rather have a(nother) shutdown corner. Or a blitzing LB that gets a ton of sacks.

Joshua · #11 09-26-2013, 03:59 PM

I don't think anyone is clamoring for Freeman. His name was just thrown out there as a possibility since he appears to be available. While he hasn't been great, he has shown a few flashes, and this was while on a garbage team. If Kubiak is the QB guru that some think he is, he should be able to get more out of him, and a 25% improvement in his prior play would probably rank him ahead of Schaub.

With the rule changes for illegal contact, hitting defenseless receivers, hitting the QB, etc., the league is QB-driven like never before. It's my opinion that it's virtually impossible to run through the playoffs without a QB playing at an extremely high level. While DBs and LBs are nice, I would always prioritize finding a legit QB over everything else by a wide margin.

popanot · #12 09-27-2013, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

We bitch and moan about every pick Schaub throws and then when somebody who threw five more of them last year than he did is about to be dumped, we're in a hurry to give up draft picks to get him?

Nobody said picks (plural). But yeah, I'd give up a #6 or maybe a #5 for him. I don't see the harm in that. We'll probably get a #5 or #6 back as compensation for Quinn leaving anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

Schaub is good enough for us to win 75% of our games but we want somebody who'll make it 90% so we can beat teams like the Patriots, Ravens and Broncos (not to mention the Colts). Does Freeman look like that guy?

Does Yates or Keenum? You might think so, but I highly doubt anyone in the NFL does. I'd even question if Kubiak and Smith do. If we could get Freeman on the cheap (low pick and reasonable contract value/years) and Kubiak can clean him up, the potential reward far exceeds the risk, IMO. Not saying I'd start him over Schaub this year, but I'd certainly open up competition next year and let the best man win. I wouldn't mind a bit paying Schaub to ride the pine and be the backup if he lost out.

Joshua · #13 09-27-2013, 10:14 AM

This is getting pretty far afield from the thread topic, but me and a buddy ran down the league yesterday and tried to guess which teams would trade for Schaub if the Texans decided to put him on the trade block. Even as a Schaub pessimist, I was surprised at how few teams I could make a credible claim for trading for him. By my count, I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 teams who would do so.

AFC South (Indy - no; Tenn - maybe but I doubt it; Jacksonville - maybe but I think they would rather tank and draft one)

AFC North (Pitt - no; Balt. - no; Clev - maybe but I think they would rather tank and draft one; Cincy - no)

AFC East (NE - no; Miami - no; NYJ - maybe but I doubt it; Buff. - no)

AFC West (Denver - no; KC - no; Oak - maybe but I doubt it; SD - maybe but this looks like basically a push)

NFC East (Dallas - no; NYG - no; Philly - no; Wash. - no)

NFC West (SF - no; Sea. - no; Ariz. - maybe; St. Louis - no)

NFC North (GB - no; Chic. - no; Minn. - probably; Det. - no)

NFC South (NOLA - no; Atlanta - no; Carolina - no; Tampa - probably)

barrett · #14 09-27-2013, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua

This is getting pretty far afield from the thread topic, but me and a buddy ran down the league yesterday and tried to guess which teams would trade for Schaub if the Texans decided to put him on the trade block. Even as a Schaub pessimist, I was surprised at how few teams I could make a credible claim for trading for him. By my count, I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 teams who would do so.

AFC South (Indy - no; Tenn - maybe but I doubt it; Jacksonville - maybe but I think they would rather tank and draft one)

AFC North (Pitt - no; Balt. - no; Clev - maybe but I think they would rather tank and draft one; Cincy - no)

AFC East (NE - no; Miami - no; NYJ - maybe but I doubt it; Buff. - no)

AFC West (Denver - no; KC - no; Oak - maybe but I doubt it; SD - maybe but this looks like basically a push)

NFC East (Dallas - no; NYG - no; Philly - no; Wash. - no)

NFC West (SF - no; Sea. - no; Ariz. - maybe; St. Louis - no)

NFC North (GB - no; Chic. - no; Minn. - probably; Det. - no)

NFC South (NOLA - no; Atlanta - no; Carolina - no; Tampa - probably)

GMs and HCs get judged first off wins and losses and 2nd off their ability to obtain and develop a QB. Occasionally you can miss 1 time, but missing twice generally gets you fired. Because of this the teams that would be interested are not necessarily the teams where he would be an upgrade.

An interested team would need to view him as an upgrade AND have a coach who is approaching the end of his deal and needs to win now rather than 2-3 years from now. Although even in that setting some coaches try to get a rookie QB in there to convince ownership they should be given more time and patience since they are developing a rookie QB and nobody knows how that will turn out (clearly what Schiano is doing).

Aside from those situations, you would need a team to really invest in Schuab as their guy of the future and I cannot see any NFL team giving up draft picks to do that, even if he is better than what half the teams in the league have. Far more likely is Schaub ends up cut if we ever replace him.

HPF Bob · #15 09-27-2013, 11:01 AM

I'm not saying Yates and Keenum would put the Texans over the top only that they cost us nothing in terms of lost draft choices to find out. Yates does have better mobility than Schaub and (it seems in limited exposure) a stronger passing arm. What Yates lacks is experience. Keenum, to me, is a harder sell even though I rooted for him at UH. But he does seem like a valuable backup and the Texans must agree because they chose to keep him rather than expose him to waivers.

Nconroe · #16 09-27-2013, 11:11 AM

My opinion is I would not try to make Josh Freeman our QB of future. His own team voted him out of team captain, so not a good leadership indicator.

barrett · #17 09-27-2013, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nconroe

My opinion is I would not try to make Josh Freeman our QB of future. His own team voted him out of team captain, so not a good leadership indicator.

His own team voted him in 4 years in a row before the HC feuded with him. There were multiple articles that the HC had something to do with fixing that vote. The same HC is feuding with other veterans and the team is coming apart at the seams. Now the HC has gone to a rookie QB to try to lengthen the leash before he is fired.

I think passing on Freeman is fine, but I wouldn't pass on him for anything that occured with Schiano in the last 10 months.

barrett · #18 09-27-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

I'm not saying Yates and Keenum would put the Texans over the top only that they cost us nothing in terms of lost draft choices to find out. Yates does have better mobility than Schaub and (it seems in limited exposure) a stronger passing arm. What Yates lacks is experience. Keenum, to me, is a harder sell even though I rooted for him at UH. But he does seem like a valuable backup and the Texans must agree because they chose to keep him rather than expose him to waivers.

I agree if Freeman cost us anything more than a 4th, and if he didn't come with a seriously reduced contract. Really, the interest would not be more than marginal, especially when we could go after signing him for free after the season (to a deal we create). I would love to sign him in the offseason to a Leinhart type deal if he doesn't get big offers to start and he is smart enough to know Kubiak can rebuild a guy in a backup role.

cadams · #19 09-27-2013, 11:46 AM

i wouldn't go after freeman. to me he seems like a younger schaub, though maybe with a few more physical tools. if he was out there on the free agent market and you needed a veteran backup, then i would be fine with that, but nothing more.

HPF Bob · #20 09-27-2013, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrett

I agree if Freeman cost us anything more than a 4th, and if he didn't come with a seriously reduced contract. Really, the interest would not be more than marginal, especially when we could go after signing him for free after the season (to a deal we create). I would love to sign him in the offseason to a Leinhart type deal if he doesn't get big offers to start and he is smart enough to know Kubiak can rebuild a guy in a backup role.

If Kubiak felt strongly about him and he was sold on the idea that he would have to earn the job, I am okay with.this. I suspect, though, that he would find better offers.