Zone blocking scheme outdated?

Arky · #1 09-15-2009, 12:33 PM

I've seen a lot of talk lately on the messageboards and blogs about the Texans ZBS vs. big, physical defenses - how the 3-4 defenses always give the smaller/lighter/athletic offensive lineman fits. About how the ZBS is an outdated system..... but I'm just not buying into it.

IMO, it is still personnel. You gotta have the right guys. I don't think by and large that most people have a problem with (our) the two tackles - Winston and Brown. It's those guys in between them where you see all the stones being cast. I believe Pitts and Myers are coming off of injuries and perhaps they both aren't 100% and 100% in "football shape". I look for both of them to be better this week against the Titans. But, eventually, I think we are gonna need and upgrade of the center and two guards. IMO, a competent smaller/quicker/athletic lineman should be able to deal with the bigger guy in front of him. We may already have one of the upgrades on the roster in Caldwell. And who says they have to be "smaller"? Can't you get a quicker/athletic guy in the medium or even large variety?

Eric Winston's take on the Jets game.

Nconroe · #2 09-15-2009, 01:35 PM

Pretty much agree and enjoyed Winston's analysis. I too was wondering about the health of Myers, Pitts, and Schaub on being able to execute properly. Caldwell and Butler are a little bigger if we wanted to add some size in the OL.

I'm wondering if Kubiak will take back the play calling for a few games. And having Walters back may help a little. I suspect the motivation/intensity/preparation won't be a problem this coming weekend, if it was this past weekend.

WMH · #3 09-15-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nconroe

I'm wondering if Kubiak will take back the play calling for a few games. And having Walters back may help a little. I suspect the motivation/intensity/preparation won't be a problem this coming weekend, if it was this past weekend.

I can definitely see this happening. I haven't watched the TV replay, but a buddy of mine told me that after a dumb 4th down call, the camera was on Kubiak and he said something to the effect of "Kyle, what the hell was that?"

I know there are some out there ready to mail it in after one piss poor game, but I am too dumb to do so. Every year we drop one or two that we are "supposed" to win, but we will snag a couple that we are "supposed" to lose. That's the NFL, happens everywhere, every year.

papabear · #4 09-15-2009, 04:27 PM

I don't think the basis of the scheme is outdated, but you have to continually adjust any scheme to counter the adjustments the defense makes. I think we did the right thing last year by cutting the running game down to its' simplest parts to focus on executing the basics well. I think it would probably be a good idea to add a few wrinkles back in this year...mix back in a few more man principles to keep defenses off balance.

nunusguy · #5 09-15-2009, 04:36 PM

There was an unusually big man playing NT in the 3-4 for the Jets Sunday, Kris Jenkins is reportedly 360 and he actually looked bigger than that and I
know he looked much bigger to Texans center Myers. But whoever is lined up on that guy probably is gonna get pushed around and yea, get knocked down with one swat of an arm from that big grizzly.
Sometimes offensive lines have problems because they are too big and immoble vs smaller quicker DLines. For example I just checked the Titans web site which lists their starting DLine at < 280 iibs and we know that the Colts have historically also had smallish but very quick DLineman.The Texans smaller than average OLine (it's not really that small, but neither is it a large line) didn't have the problems it had because of its size or because it was running the ZB system, it had the problems because HC Kubiak and his assistants totally blew it in their preparations for the game. They played these guys last year and knew (or should have known) what was coming and got the line ready for it. Next summer, if Kubiaks still here, maybe he'll concentrate on getting his team ready for the season-opener instead of talking about how they were gonna be in the playoffs ?

Big Texas · #6 09-15-2009, 07:23 PM

I agree, although Myers was getting okie doked, like an episode of punk'd, this loss falls purely on Kubiak's shoulders. If he saw Myers was getting pushed around why not make a change. See what Caldwell could do. He could do no worse than what Myers was doing.

Also their screen execution was abysmal. Kubiak just did not have anyone in the right position to succeed.

NBT · #7 09-15-2009, 07:26 PM

Kubiak has a history of not preparing his troops to go to war, to wit the Saints, Vikings, and now the Jets games this year. It is not personnel at all it is Kubiaks irritating habit of slow starts the last two years. And this will just not work out with McNair who has gone on record as saying he wants (demands) better than 8-8 this year. Like it or not Kubiak is in hot water.

Arky · #8 09-15-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Texas

.......... Also their screen execution was abysmal......

Ya, that's another thing... All these Jets blitzers - somebody had to be open...

Until we can prove we can beat the blitz (and get it on film) we can expect more of the same from every team coming down the pike. Just blitz like hell and get Schaub rattled and you can beat the Texans....

Roy P · #9 09-15-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arky

Can't you get a quicker/athletic guy in the medium or even large variety?

Eric Winston's take on the Jets game.

That's what I look for every draft. I was somewhat surprised that Caldwell fit into our "quicker/athletic" guy. You can probably do a search and see what kind of OL I'd be looking for from a Combine Stats kind of thing. Of course they still have to be able to block, or you end up with Gallery.

Can't say that I'm happy with Myers, but I'm even more dissappointed that Brisel is a starter. If Caldwell can't beat that guy out for the RG position, we may have wasted a pick.

Arky · #10 09-16-2009, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P

....If Caldwell can't beat that guy out for the RG position, we may have wasted a pick.

I think he's in the grooming process right now..... Roster actually has him listed as a "C" (center). Also, sounded like Studdard won a lot of brownie points during camp and pre-season....

Fonz the Boss · #11 09-16-2009, 01:16 AM

In short, the ZBS didnt work this week because the Jets defense had bigger, faster, and stronger guys than our offensive personnel.

mussop · #12 09-16-2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P

That's what I look for every draft. I was somewhat surprised that Caldwell fit into our "quicker/athletic" guy. You can probably do a search and see what kind of OL I'd be looking for from a Combine Stats kind of thing. Of course they still have to be able to block, or you end up with Gallery.

Can't say that I'm happy with Myers, but I'm even more dissappointed that Brisel is a starter. If Caldwell can't beat that guy out for the RG position, we may have wasted a pick.

I agree with you about Caldwell. When I watched him he seemed top heavy when out in space. I really didnt think he fit this scheme.

TexanJedi · #13 09-16-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mussop

I agree with you about Caldwell. When I watched him he seemed top heavy when out in space. I really didnt think he fit this scheme.

Bama runs a zone scheme. Maybe he's not a prototypical Denver-style lineman, but he comes from a ZBS background, ironically run by Joe Pendry (under Saban). The Texans have a bad habit of not always playing the best player so I can't hold that against him.

barrett · #14 09-16-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanJedi

Bama runs a zone scheme. Maybe he's not a prototypical Denver-style lineman, but he comes from a ZBS background, ironically run by Joe Pendry (under Saban). The Texans have a bad habit of not always playing the best player so I can't hold that against him.

when has this happened? we've never had good enough depth for good players to not play.

TexanJedi · #15 09-16-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrett

when has this happened? we've never had good enough depth for good players to not play.

Sage Rosenfels not playing (over Carr), Green over Slaton for a while, Anyone over Myers, DelJuan Robinson last year, Weaver over Bulman, getting rid of a perfectly good Sam LB in Danny Clark.

I'm not saying that these guys playing would have equaled playoffs (our coaching staff seems slow to make adjustments when something does not work and that kills this team), but clearly guys like Weaver, Myers, and Green were playing because of the money they were signed for. I mean how can Caldwell or White be worse than Myers?

barrett · #16 09-16-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanJedi

Sage Rosenfels not playing (over Carr), Green over Slaton for a while, Anyone over Myers, DelJuan Robinson last year, Weaver over Bulman, getting rid of a perfectly good Sam LB in Danny Clark.

I'm not saying that these guys playing would have equaled playoffs (our coaching staff seems slow to make adjustments when something does not work and that kills this team), but clearly guys like Weaver, Myers, and Green were playing because of the money they were signed for. I mean how can Caldwell or White be worse than Myers?

Those are terrible examples. Green started 1 game when Slaton was a 3rd round rookie who had never played a down of NFL football.

Robinson and Buhlman were questionable upgrades last year but still got more of a chance from this staff than anyone else in the NFL ever gave them.

And you say anyone over myers, but do you realize that we started Mike Briesel last year for 16 games? That should tell you what our interior OL depth looked like last year. And Myers salary is not high, but if Myers was playing because of salary then why was Studdard also ahead of White and Caldwell at G. Or Brisiel for that matter. It's because those guys are currently not very good.

We have some personnell issues, but they're about not having good enough players. It has nothing to do with not playing our best guys.

HPF Bob · #17 09-17-2009, 01:05 AM

Those with long memories may recall how the Ravens used to routinely brutalized the Broncos whenever the two teams met. Considering Kubiak is essentially running the Broncos playbook and Ryan is running the Ravens', the result in hindsight might have been more predictable.

I wouldn't pronounce the ZBS dead. Very ordinary RBs still have very good days using it. However, the ZBS was dealt a big blow when the cut block was outlawed. Cutting defenders neutralized some of the height/weight differential that made lighter ZBS lines effective against the big bullies of the league. With that gone, lines have to rely on quickness and positioning instead of opening holes by getting defenders down on the ground or getting them more concerned about their knees instead of the ball carrier.

nunusguy · #18 09-17-2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

However, the ZBS was dealt a big blow when the cut block was outlawed.

I dunno did I miss the memo they circulated ? I knew the "chop block" was illegal, but didn't know the NFL had also made the cut block illegal ?

kravix · #19 09-17-2009, 10:26 AM

Im pretty sure the cut block is still "legal", but they put some restrictions on it which renders it not as effective. Something about going below the waist on engaged linemen, I think......

Mike · #20 09-17-2009, 11:08 AM

Here is the cut blocking rule:

Cut blocks can be legal in the free blocking zone, which is the six-yard by eight-yard zone centered on the football. Cut blocks are illegal in the open field. It also is illegal to cut block a player that is already engaged in a block with another player.

Lance Z had some great insight this AM on why we had so many issues Sunday. Part of it was disguising who the Mike LB was, and showing overloads to a different side of the line, causing the protections to slide towards the overload, then bringing the blitzers who were playing games from the other side.