At The Combine

papabear · #1 02-25-2009, 08:56 AM

I wish they did this with some of the players. I heard some one say the other day they were dissapointed that this guy ran a 4.64, but he was hoping he would run a mid to high 4.5. So if the guy runs a 4.57 he's OK but not if he's .07 seconds slower? So a better lean at the tape means he can play in the NFL?

Roy P · #2 02-25-2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papabear

I wish they did this with some of the players. I heard some one say the other day they were dissapointed that this guy ran a 4.64, but he was hoping he would run a mid to high 4.5. So if the guy runs a 4.57 he's OK but not if he's .07 seconds slower? So a better lean at the tape means he can play in the NFL?

At some point you have to draw a line. For somebody it might be 4.8. Then somebody comes behind them and says, well this guy ran a 4.81 are you going to dismiss them for .01 seconds?

There is no real black/white thing going on here. When players start getting so deep in the gray, you just have to cut bait.

For example, if I'm looking for a MLB my target 40 time would be around 4.63. Any time better is gravy and any time worse I start having to come up with reasons to keep him on the board. If a guy runs 4.67, he better be a thumper that can tackle very well. If he goes 4.77, then he has to be able to defeat OL blocks and be able to stack and shed. At 4.8, he better have the instincts of a pyschic and know the playbook better than the other teams' Offensive Coordinator. If he runs a 4.81 - then I can't draft him to play MLB because there isn't enough other things that he will be able to do to overcome the lack of speed that my defense would require. So, it wasn't the .01 second difference really - it was .17 seconds slower than the 4.63 that I desire. I think you can see the difference in .17 seconds on the Simulcam.

papabear · #3 02-25-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P

At some point you have to draw a line. For somebody it might be 4.8. Then somebody comes behind them and says, well this guy ran a 4.81 are you going to dismiss them for .01 seconds?

I understand that, but I don't think the average person really understands how little difference there is between some of the times and get way to fixated on what amounts to a half step. That can be the difference in being open in the NFL, but at the combine it's probably more indicative of who spent the most time working with a track coach. That is one thing about the combine though. The players know what drills will be there, and it's good to find out who were the ones willing to put in the work to get better at the things they will be tested on. If a guy got confused on how to run the three cone that would probably set off as many alarm bells for me as a 40 that was slightly below par.

I just wish they had some kind of graphic representation to compare two players. I would be more willing to discount a player for a slow ten or twenty yard split then I would for a 40. I'm a guy who loves having speed, but if a LB or RB is a tenth slower then a target time for the forty, but has a great 3 cone and looks good on film, and has a good initial burst...so what on the 40.

I'm not saying I want a CB who runs 4.8, and I don't think the 40 is worthless. It is definitely a tool that can be useful. I just think some people are way to fixated on it. I'm not talking about you Roy, or anyone else her for that matter. You are at least as accurate as the network guys with less information and resources.

mussop · #4 02-25-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papabear

I understand that, but I don't think the average person really understands how little difference there is between some of the times and get way to fixated on what amounts to a half step. That can be the difference in being open in the NFL, but at the combine it's probably more indicative of who spent the most time working with a track coach. That is one thing about the combine though. The players know what drills will be there, and it's good to find out who were the ones willing to put in the work to get better at the things they will be tested on. If a guy got confused on how to run the three cone that would probably set off as many alarm bells for me as a 40 that was slightly below par.

I just wish they had some kind of graphic representation to compare two players. I would be more willing to discount a player for a slow ten or twenty yard split then I would for a 40. I'm a guy who loves having speed, but if a LB or RB is a tenth slower then a target time for the forty, but has a great 3 cone and looks good on film, and has a good initial burst...so what on the 40.

I'm not saying I want a CB who runs 4.8, and I don't think the 40 is worthless. It is definitely a tool that can be useful. I just think some people are way to fixated on it. I'm not talking about you Roy, or anyone else her for that matter. You are at least as accurate as the network guys with less information and resources.

This is why I dont pay much attention to the combine.

barrett · #5 02-25-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papabear

I understand that, but I don't think the average person really understands how little difference there is between some of the times and get way to fixated on what amounts to a half step. That can be the difference in being open in the NFL, but at the combine it's probably more indicative of who spent the most time working with a track coach. That is one thing about the combine though. The players know what drills will be there, and it's good to find out who were the ones willing to put in the work to get better at the things they will be tested on. If a guy got confused on how to run the three cone that would probably set off as many alarm bells for me as a 40 that was slightly below par.

I just wish they had some kind of graphic representation to compare two players. I would be more willing to discount a player for a slow ten or twenty yard split then I would for a 40. I'm a guy who loves having speed, but if a LB or RB is a tenth slower then a target time for the forty, but has a great 3 cone and looks good on film, and has a good initial burst...so what on the 40.

I'm not saying I want a CB who runs 4.8, and I don't think the 40 is worthless. It is definitely a tool that can be useful. I just think some people are way to fixated on it. I'm not talking about you Roy, or anyone else her for that matter. You are at least as accurate as the network guys with less information and resources.

This is why I do pay attention to the combine.

If a guy cannot prepare for the combine and run and test at his best with his future on the line, then he lacks the profesionalism and work ethic to be a very good NFL football player.

James · #6 02-25-2009, 11:15 PM

Probably not the appropriate spot for this post, however; I was perusing the old draft pick value chart, considering some mock draft possibilities, when I realized that either Stafford, Sanchez, or (now a bit more likely) both, will be there at 15. After the 15th pick though, the Jets, Bucs, Bears, and Lions are in some need of a QB. Whether its both or just Sanchez, it would (wouldn't it?) suit the Lions to take the best tackle (J Smith) #1 and trade us their 3rd to move up . . .wouldn't it? Perhaps just dreaming . . .

painekiller · #7 02-26-2009, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James

Probably not the appropriate spot for this post, however; I was perusing the old draft pick value chart, considering some mock draft possibilities, when I realized that either Stafford, Sanchez, or (now a bit more likely) both, will be there at 15. After the 15th pick though, the Jets, Bucs, Bears, and Lions are in some need of a QB. Whether its both or just Sanchez, it would (wouldn't it?) suit the Lions to take the best tackle (J Smith) #1 and trade us their 3rd to move up . . .wouldn't it? Perhaps just dreaming . . .

No I find that a very plausible thing to happen.

jppaul · #8 02-26-2009, 01:03 AM

I am personally on the draft Malcolm Jenkins at 15 to be a safety train now.

mussop · #9 02-26-2009, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James

Probably not the appropriate spot for this post, however; I was perusing the old draft pick value chart, considering some mock draft possibilities, when I realized that either Stafford, Sanchez, or (now a bit more likely) both, will be there at 15. After the 15th pick though, the Jets, Bucs, Bears, and Lions are in some need of a QB. Whether its both or just Sanchez, it would (wouldn't it?) suit the Lions to take the best tackle (J Smith) #1 and trade us their 3rd to move up . . .wouldn't it? Perhaps just dreaming . . .

Check this thread out its already been talked about. I still think this is one of our best shots at trading down. No way Detroit drafts a QB first. I just dont believe it. The pick will be Curry or (more likely) Monroe. If one of the top QB's fall they will have to jump in front of a few other teams to assure they get one. Surrendering a 3rd to make sure they get their QB of the future isnt out of the question.

Roy P · #10 02-26-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mussop

Check this thread out its already been talked about.

Surrendering a 3rd to make sure they get their QB of the future isnt out of the question.

I'd love to trade down and get more picks, but let's step back a minute. The Detroit Lions could very well bundle some picks to the Patriots for the opportunity to pay Matt Cassel to play QB. He is the safest QB they could get because they have seen the level of play he's capable of in the NFL.

The San Diego Chargers are behind us with Whitehurst, Voler, and Rivers. Why wouldn't the Lions just trade up to #16 instead of #15? They just need to get ahead of the Jets, right?

NickO · #11 02-26-2009, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James

Probably not the appropriate spot for this post, however; I was perusing the old draft pick value chart, considering some mock draft possibilities, when I realized that either Stafford, Sanchez, or (now a bit more likely) both, will be there at 15. After the 15th pick though, the Jets, Bucs, Bears, and Lions are in some need of a QB. Whether its both or just Sanchez, it would (wouldn't it?) suit the Lions to take the best tackle (J Smith) #1 and trade us their 3rd to move up . . .wouldn't it? Perhaps just dreaming . . .

Shades of Cleveland in 2007. In bad need of a QB, selected Joe Thomas 3rd overall then traded back up to grab Brady Quinn.

Browns Got:
2007 1st Rd Pick (22nd Overall)

Dallas Got:
2007 2nd Rd Pick (36th Overall)
2008 1st Rd Pick (which turned out to be 22nd Overall thanks to Derek Anderson)

So the question is, would the Texans trade back from 15th overall for the Lions 2nd rounder (33rd overall) and their 1st next year? That's a long way to trade back, but remember a couple things:

1) Consensus is there's a lack of top-end talent in the 2009 draft, but good depth
2) The Lions just went 0-16 and are freaking terrible, that could be a top five pick. Hell, Cleveland was freaking terrible and they were willing to gamble (Phil Savage got fired, but whatever)

nunusguy · #12 02-26-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James

Whether its both or just Sanchez

Excuse the digression, but can you just imagine the commercial potential of a Texas football franchise that has a Latino QB ?

James · #13 02-26-2009, 07:41 AM

VY would have brought commercial appeal, or even ReBu, the Texans don't care for appeal clearly, which is a good thing in my opinion. In regards to a third not being enough to drop 5 spots, the trusty value chart says we are +100 points in this deal, and; in my opinion are clearly getting the better of the deal considering the talent that will still be available there at 20 . . .just my 2 cents though.

papabear · #14 02-26-2009, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrett

If a guy cannot prepare for the combine and run and test at his best with his future on the line, then he lacks the profesionalism and work ethic to be a very good NFL football player.

Absolutely. That to me is one of the biggest aspects of the combine.

BigBull · #15 02-26-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrett

This is why I do pay attention to the combine.

If a guy cannot prepare for the combine and run and test at his best with his future on the line, then he lacks the profesionalism and work ethic to be a very good NFL football player.

I don't think that is a fair assessment of every player who performs poorly at the combine. It could be that their trainer didn't train them properly. Not everyone gets the benefit of training with a trainer like Danny Arnold of Plex. I think nerves play a big role in it too. I mean these young men that mostly come from families with little money know that how they perform could mean millions of dollars in some cases.

papabear · #16 02-26-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBull

I don't think that is a fair assessment of every player who performs poorly at the combine. It could be that their trainer didn't train them properly. Not everyone gets the benefit of training with a trainer like Danny Arnold of Plex. I think nerves play a big role in it too. I mean these young men that mostly come from families with little money know that how they perform could mean millions of dollars in some cases.

It's not just the performance though. Is he in shape? Was he ready for the drills and how they were supposed to be run? If a guy's in good shape and runs a 4.7 then he just runs a 4.7. If a guy is flabby and huffing and puffing through the drills and runs a 4.7....he didn't take it seriously. It's not just the drills either. How do they carry themselves? Do they take the process seriously, or do they just treat it like a vacation.

It's perfectly understandable for a kid to be nervous, but his response to those nerves gives you some idea of how he handles all that pressure.

Roy P · #17 02-26-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papabear

Was he ready for the drills and how they were supposed to be run?

That is something that frustrates me. When a kid has to be told several times how to get into a stance before taking off on his 40, I just shake my head. I would expect a player to have prepared for his job interview to the point where he wouldn't need any instructions on the day of the Combine. In fact, by that point, he should be able to give the instructions on how to run a 40 as well as every other drill at the Combine.

I'm sitting here watching the NFL Network for the last couple of years and it never fails. Its funny, but I think I could run the drills without instructions and do them correctly. My times would be horrible, but the drill would be run like they are supposed to be.

It reflects a lack of pride in professionalism. I wish I could go back and watch Travis Johnson at the Combine to see if there were any signs to pick up on.