Evaluation Time

[WMH]

Originally Posted by Roy P

Jay Glazer reported on Fox Sunday that Kubiak is safe but the "defensive staff is gone." I'm wondering if Richard Smith is the only one who will be fired or if they will clean house with the position coaches too. Would we be interested in Rod Marinelli if he's no longer the head coach in Detroit? Would Kubiak bring in Jim Bates?

Mangini would be an interesting thought too......

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by WMH

Mangini would be an interesting thought too......

Just as long as he doesn't want to run a 3-4 defense.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by WMH

Mangini would be an interesting thought too......

I doubt any of the 3-4 guys would be considered right now. This is a young defense that has spent 3 years gathering very young and definite 4-3 type players. I don't see Kubiak or McNair discarding the core of guys they have.

I think Kubiak keeps Smith. I think he knows the trouble is personnel, and they can draft defense heavy, getting younger yes, but getting more athletic also.

It's time for the last of the Casserly FA to let go, and time to finally upgrade the LBs, and get a true stud safety, not a late round special teamer, street FA guy.

[NBT]

OH, then it was personnel on the defensive side of the ball that didn't bother to show up until the second quarter. All of a sudden the same group became headhunters, and did a better job of holding Chicago somewhat in check. NO I still think Richard Smith is to blame, and should go.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by NBT

OH, then it was personnel on the defensive side of the ball that didn't bother to show up until the second quarter. All of a sudden the same group became headhunters, and did a better job of holding Chicago somewhat in check. NO I still think Richard Smith is to blame, and should go.

Yes it was players that decided to be big boys and tackle.

Only 3 plays on our defense could be unquestioned starters on all the playoff teams. That is a dearth of talent on that side of the ball.

Now a few of the 7 other guys are young and still learning, so they will get a pass by me, but we have to upgrade the talent. Why? Because players play, and if you sub par talent no coach can correct that.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by painekiller

I doubt any of the 3-4 guys would be considered right now. This is a young defense that has spent 3 years gathering very young and definite 4-3 type players. I don't see Kubiak or McNair discarding the core of guys they have.

I think Kubiak keeps Smith. I think he knows the trouble is personnel, and they can draft defense heavy, getting younger yes, but getting more athletic also.

It's time for the last of the Casserly FA to let go, and time to finally upgrade the LBs, and get a true stud safety, not a late round special teamer, street FA guy.

I don't get this.

What about our personnel is strictly 4-3?

Mario is your prototype 3-4 DE. Bulman, Cochran, and Weaver are as well. DelJuan is a legitimate NT. Ryans is a star LB in any system. Adibi and Thompson are legit 3-4 OLB. The only question I have about a hypothetical transition is Okoye and (1) he's been underperforming in the 4-3 as it is and (2) LZ thinks he's a great fit for a 3-4 for what that's worth.

We would need more depth at LB and NT, but we need that as it stands anyway. I see no reason to shy from a 3-4 DC if we think he gives us a shot at a great defense.

Plus, both the Colts and Titan offenses struggle against 3-4 D's, so that's another reason to seriously consider it.

Draft a 3-4 OLB in the first and you can roll out this front seven:

Weaver - Robinson - Williams
Adibi - Ryans - Diles - Stintim/Brown/Curry

Seems like a nice front 7 to me.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I don't get this.

What about our personnel is strictly 4-3?

Mario is your prototype 3-4 DE. Bulman, Cochran, and Weaver are as well. DelJuan is a legitimate NT. Diles is a star LB in any system. Adibi and Thompson are legit 3-4 OLB. The only question I have about a hypothetical transition is Okoye and (1) he's been underperforming in the 4-3 as it is and (2) LZ thinks he's a great fit for a 3-4 for what that's worth.

We would need more depth at LB and NT, but we need that as it stands anyway. I see no reason to shy from a 3-4 DC if we think he gives us a shot at a great defense.

Plus, both the Colts and Titan offenses struggle against 3-4 D's, so that's another reason to seriously consider it.

I think Mario is closer to a 3-4 OLB than a DE. Most 3-4 DE are really just quick 4-3 DTs, think Gary Walker. As for DelJaun as a 3-4 NT, not really IMO. I look at most 3-4s and see the 320+ guys at NT. Guys like Okam.

Our LBs are all 4-3 types, way top small to play in the 3-4. Adibi is not bigger than most teams SS. The LBs in a 3-4 are prototypically the larger less athletic type LBs. BTW this draft as a lot of 3-4 OLB types in it. Also the 3-4 usually is not rookie friendly in the front 7, so drafting takes time and numbers.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by painekiller

I think Mario is closer to a 3-4 OLB than a DE. Most 3-4 DE are really just quick 4-3 DTs, think Gary Walker. As for DelJaun as a 3-4 NT, not really IMO. I look at most 3-4s and see the 320+ guys at NT. Guys like Okam.

Our LBs are all 4-3 types, way top small to play in the 3-4. Adibi is not bigger than most teams SS. The LBs in a 3-4 are prototypically the larger less athletic type LBs. BTW this draft as a lot of 3-4 OLB types in it. Also the 3-4 usually is not rookie friendly in the front 7, so drafting takes time and numbers.

You're right about Deljuan, I thought he was bigger than he is for some reason.

I couldn't disagree more about Mario though, how many 290lbs OLB are there? You want your 3-4 DE to do 2 things; (1) tie up blockers, (2) play the run. Mario does both of those things very well in addition to being able to beat that double teams, which would effectively give you an extra rusher on plays.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you wanted your 3-4 OLB to be able to rush the passer. I was under the impression that's what their job was. That's why I think Adibi would be a good fit there. But, it is true that 3-4 OLB are DE/OLB tweeners, and that Adibi is not. So maybe he's not a good fit there. But, we do have guys like Nading and Thompson to fit that role and, like you said, this draft is very heavy in these tweeners.

Again, I think we have the personnel to run the system. We might be short on NT and LB, but that's the case in the 4-3 as it is. And if we bring in a good 3-4 coach I'm sure he could plug those holes fairly quickly.

I'd just hate to see us pass on a potentially great coach like Crennel or Mangini to settle on someone mediocre simply because we're afraid to change schemes.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

You're right about Deljuan, I thought he was bigger than he is for some reason.

I couldn't disagree more about Mario though, how many 290lbs OLB are there? You want your 3-4 DE to do 2 things; (1) tie up blockers, (2) play the run. Mario does both of those things very well in addition to being able to beat that double teams, which would effectively give you an extra rusher on plays.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you wanted your 3-4 OLB to be able to rush the passer. I was under the impression that's what their job was. That's why I think Adibi would be a good fit there. But, it is true that 3-4 OLB are DE/OLB tweeners, and that Adibi is not. So maybe he's not a good fit there. But, we do have guys like Nading and Thompson to fit that role and, like you said, this draft is very heavy in these tweeners.

Again, I think we have the personnel to run the system. We might be short on NT and LB, but that's the case in the 4-3 as it is. And if we bring in a good 3-4 coach I'm sure he could plug those holes fairly quickly.

I'd just hate to see us pass on a potentially great coach like Crennel or Mangini to settle on someone mediocre simply because we're afraid to change schemes.

Just because Mario can do it does not mean it is how you want to use him. Peyton Manning CAN hand the ball off but I am not going to pay him 15 million a year to do that 50 times a game. Mario would be a wasted talent as a 3-4 End.

As for the LBs, average size for a 3-4 OLB is about 260. Adibi and Diles would have to attempt to move inside or be gone. We currently have nobody who would be a 3-4 OLB unless you go with Mario and then he has to play coverage sometimes. Not to mention that a giant NT may be piece #1 in the 3-4.

Our personnel is terrible for the switch. AND it won't happen.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I don't get this.

What about our personnel is strictly 4-3?

Mario is your prototype 3-4 DE. Bulman, Cochran, and Weaver are as well. DelJuan is a legitimate NT. Ryans is a star LB in any system. Adibi and Thompson are legit 3-4 OLB. The only question I have about a hypothetical transition is Okoye and (1) he's been underperforming in the 4-3 as it is and (2) LZ thinks he's a great fit for a 3-4 for what that's worth.

Mario would be fine as a 3-4 End...I just don't know why you want to take our only pass rush threat and put at him a position that, by design, doesn't get many sacks or chances to make big plays. He's also the only end we have that I see even having a shot as a 3-4 OLB. I don't want to take a guy who has become a dominant end and start having him do something that he has never done before by playing with his hand off the ground and dropping back into coverage.

The key to a 3-4 is the NT. If you don't have a good one, then nothing else will work. We don't have one who can play that position right now, even in the much less demanding 4-3 version. All of our DT's are better as penetrating 1 gap players...even though Smith doesn't always let them do that. 3-4 NT's are not easy to find either. A rookie is going to need quite a bit of time to grow into it and 3-4 teams aren't going to let a good one go.

Okoye, Bullman, Robinson, and Weaver would all be fine in a 3-4 at end. I don't think any of them can handle NT. I think all of our LB's are undersized for a 3-4, and I don't see any of them as a big threat pass rushing from the OLB position except Mario. I don't feel comfortable moving him there.

We've already got one Dominant end for the 4-3. A great MLB, and a young LB in Adibi who should continue to Develop. Okoye played much better over the last few games, and I hope that the light started to come on for him this year and we will start to get some ROI from him next year. We need a big hog to anchor the middle, a speed rusher specialist, and maybe one more LB. That's much easier than the major overhaul that I think we would need for a 3-4, not to mention the painful transition period. We've got a good base for a good 4-3 defense right now, and I see no reason not to build our front 7 around what we already have.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by papabear

Mario would be fine as a 3-4 End...I just don't know why you want to take our only pass rush threat and put at him a position that, by design, doesn't get many sacks or chances to make big plays. He's also the only end we have that I see even having a shot as a 3-4 OLB. I don't want to take a guy who has become a dominant end and start having him do something that he has never done before by playing with his hand off the ground and dropping back into coverage.

The key to a 3-4 is the NT. If you don't have a good one, then nothing else will work. We don't have one who can play that position right now, even in the much less demanding 4-3 version. All of our DT's are better as penetrating 1 gap players...even though Smith doesn't always let them do that. 3-4 NT's are not easy to find either. A rookie is going to need quite a bit of time to grow into it and 3-4 teams aren't going to let a good one go.

Okoye, Bullman, Robinson, and Weaver would all be fine in a 3-4 at end. I don't think any of them can handle NT. I think all of our LB's are undersized for a 3-4, and I don't see any of them as a big threat pass rushing from the OLB position except Mario. I don't feel comfortable moving him there.

We've already got one Dominant end for the 4-3. A great MLB, and a young LB in Adibi who should continue to Develop. Okoye played much better over the last few games, and I hope that the light started to come on for him this year and we will start to get some ROI from him next year. We need a big hog to anchor the middle, a speed rusher specialist, and maybe one more LB. That's much easier than the major overhaul that I think we would need for a 3-4, not to mention the painful transition period. We've got a good base for a good 4-3 defense right now, and I see no reason not to build our front 7 around what we already have.

I should have read to the end of the thread to see that you already answered the post with a better version of what I was saying.

[Nconroe]

I guess for this week my analysis is I'd keep as many guys as I could who were starting at end of the year, try to keep some consistency and let the young guys grow together, both in players and coaches into the 2009 season, they showed a lot of teamwork, hard work, got a lot done. And draft heavy on the defensive side, atleast first three rounds.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by papabear

Mario would be fine as a 3-4 End...I just don't know why you want to take our only pass rush threat and put at him a position that, by design, doesn't get many sacks or chances to make big plays. He's also the only end we have that I see even having a shot as a 3-4 OLB. I don't want to take a guy who has become a dominant end and start having him do something that he has never done before by playing with his hand off the ground and dropping back into coverage.

The key to a 3-4 is the NT. If you don't have a good one, then nothing else will work. We don't have one who can play that position right now, even in the much less demanding 4-3 version. All of our DT's are better as penetrating 1 gap players...even though Smith doesn't always let them do that. 3-4 NT's are not easy to find either. A rookie is going to need quite a bit of time to grow into it and 3-4 teams aren't going to let a good one go.

Okoye, Bullman, Robinson, and Weaver would all be fine in a 3-4 at end. I don't think any of them can handle NT. I think all of our LB's are undersized for a 3-4, and I don't see any of them as a big threat pass rushing from the OLB position except Mario. I don't feel comfortable moving him there.

We've already got one Dominant end for the 4-3. A great MLB, and a young LB in Adibi who should continue to Develop. Okoye played much better over the last few games, and I hope that the light started to come on for him this year and we will start to get some ROI from him next year. We need a big hog to anchor the middle, a speed rusher specialist, and maybe one more LB. That's much easier than the major overhaul that I think we would need for a 3-4, not to mention the painful transition period. We've got a good base for a good 4-3 defense right now, and I see no reason not to build our front 7 around what we already have.

Can't argue with that.

[NBT]

I don't think Weaver will ever be FINE in any defense again.

[Bigtinylittle]

Originally Posted by NBT

I don't think Weaver will ever be FINE in any defense again.

If I recall correctly, Weaver was quoted earlier in the year saying that he isn't 100% physically and may never be again. Wish I could remember where I hard it. Maybe a radio interview.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by painekiller

I doubt any of the 3-4 guys would be considered right now.

I'm not quite as confident that being a "3-4 guy" is an automatic disqualifier. Kubiak really emphasized that he wants a smart football coach. To me that means somebody who might be thought of as a 3-4 coach, but would be willing and able to run a 4-3. An example might be Ron Rivera who went fom coaching Chicago's Tampa-2 to now running San Diego's 3-4. Tomlin was a Tampa-2 guy but allowed LeBeau to continue with their 3-4. There are teams like the Patriots that will run both fronts during the same game. I believe Rex Ryan has ran both types of defenses.

My point is, if we were to sign Def Coordinator who was known as a 3-4 guy, it doesn't necessarily mean that we would be looking to change our scheme from the 4-3.

I won't go into how we just don't have the pieces, and how Kubiak doesn't have the time to completely overhaul what we already have in place. The 3-4 completely takes away the assets of Mario, DeMeco, and Amobi. This defense needs a blitzing OLB, a playmaking Safety like Adrian Wilson, a run plugger in the middle to keep DeMeco clean and allow Omobi to rush, and last but not least a DE who can get the QB when teams double Mario. If we don't get those needs addressed via FA, then the draft should be Defense heavy.

[NBT]

In other words Travis Johnson is not the answer for the run plugger? Will Okam ever wake up and realize he is not still in college? I really think that DeMeco could be better utilized as the outside blitzing LB if he were playing the Will. That is why I would like to draft a bigger MLB, who could better take on the blockers. And we still need to give Weaver the heave ho, and get that pass rushing DE we have all been longing for. Orakpo would be a natural, not only because he is the best DE coming out, but he is from Houston, and a TeaSip to boot. But I also know he will be long gone at #15.

How about B.J. Raji for the runplugger?