Speculative AJ thread

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by Keith

the salary cap rules make trading Johnson all but impossible right now.

How does it work differently during the season as opposed to the offseason?

Like I said, I know cap issues complicate the hypothetical. Really the point I wanted to raise is; are we a better team with AJ and a 2009 first rounder or Lito Shephard and two 2009 first rounders (or 3 2009 first rounders?)

Your initial reaction is that you're a better team with one of the best 3 WR in the league; a guy who's been humble and loyal to a wretched organization. But, there's an argument to be made that our passing offense can suffice without him (e.g. those 7 games without him last season: 236 yds, 317 yds, 294 yds, 259 yds, 290 yds, 176 yds, 181 yds) especially if you get comparable/more talent back in return.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

...are we a better team with AJ and a 2009 first rounder or Lito Shephard and two 2009 first rounders (or 3 2009 first rounders?).

Do you really believe the Eagles are dumb enough to give up Sheppard AND 2 first rounders for AJ? We're talking about one of the better franchises in the league with making personel decisions. They'd laugh at that offer.

This subject is borderline silly. The guy has his best game so far and people want to ship him out. The franchise is obviously lacking top-level talent. We need to keep our quality young players, do better at drafting, sign better FAs and do better at evaluating talent overall (ours and theirs).

[Keith]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

How does it work differently during the season as opposed to the offseason?

Iirc, the unamortized bonus money accelerates immediately regardless of when the trade happens.

I agree with popanot here. A little off-topic, but the player we should have traded was Rosenfels, a QB discarded by a passer-deficient Dolphins team two years ago who suddenly gained some trade value (at least before about 2:45pm yesterday). Anyone wish they had a third rounder for him now?

If we're looking to trade anyone, you start with overpriced vets who might benefit from a new scheme or a change in scenery, guys like Tony Weaver and Morlon Greenwood ...though there is no one interested in picking up their salaries, Weaver especially. There are so few trades of household name players in the NFL for good reason.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by popanot

Do you really believe the Eagles are dumb enough to give up Sheppard AND 2 first rounders for AJ?

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

So, given Andre's recent media comments, would you be OK with shipping him to Philly for either (a) their two 2009 first round draft picks or (b) Lito Sheppard and one of their 2009 first round picks?

...........

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Keith

Iirc, the unamortized bonus money accelerates immediately regardless of when the trade happens.

I agree with popanot here. A little off-topic, but the player we should have traded was Rosenfels, a QB discarded by a passer-deficient Dolphins team two years ago who suddenly gained some trade value (at least before about 2:45pm yesterday). Anyone wish they had a third rounder for him now?

If we're looking to trade anyone, you start with overpriced vets who might benefit from a new scheme or a change in scenery, guys like Tony Weaver and Morlon Greenwood ...though there is no one interested in picking up their salaries, Weaver especially. There are so few trades of household name players in the NFL for good reason.

I dunno, but really bet you wouldn't be saying that if not for the last 3 or 4 minutes of Sundays Texans-Colts game ? 20-20 as they say - perfect hindsight.
And sure we'd like to trade Weaver or Greenwood if there was only takers
on those fat contracts. Like the sub-prime mess (mortgage balances > home market values), compensation package > player market value.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

I dunno, but really bet you wouldn't be saying that if not for the last 3 or 4 minutes of Sundays Texans-Colts game ? 20-20 as they say - perfect hindsight.

haha, so true, but I have, fairly or not, never been a huge fan of Sage's. I wrote a pretty ugly article after the team signed him (and Jameel Cook and Anthony Weaver) saying the 'new' Texans were blowing it in free agency just like the 'old' Texans.

I owned up awhile ago on Sage being more than worth the contract, so my hindsight is certainly clearer there, but I was/is all for trading Sage then and now (knowing of course now is really not likely anyway).

Sage is signed through 2009, so an offseason trade is still a possibility. Regardless, I'm in favor of using a draft pick (no earlier than a second) on a QB next April, and a suitable veteran backup is almost always available - heck, I still think the Texans had one before they let Quinn Gray go. Journeyman backup QBs are a dime a dozen imo, and to get something as meaningful as a third rounder for one just screams value to me.

And sorry for officially derailing this thread.

And nero - i think the length of this thread is more than enough evidence that this is an interesting topic, just one that might be a bit silly given the realities of the NFL's salary cap rules and general lack of blockbuster trades. Regardless, thanks for starting it... more interesting threads here is a good thing.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

...........

Like I said, this topic is silly. Philly would laugh at either one of those offers.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by popanot

Like I said, this topic is silly. Philly would laugh at either one of those offers.

i thought they were pretty much ready to strike this offseason for either sheppard or their 1sts....why would they laugh at andre?

[popanot]

Originally Posted by KJ3

i thought they were pretty much ready to strike this offseason for either sheppard or their 1sts....why would they laugh at andre?

Strike for who? They never made any deal so apparently they feel Sheppard's value is pretty high. I dunno. I'm not saying they'd laugh at AJ, just that they'd laugh if we came to table asking Sheppard + a #1 or their 2 #1's for AJ. I doubt any team would give up that much for AJ. The guy was a top 5 pick, but it's not like he's produced big time numbers for someone to give up that much for him. At this point, and aside from his recent injury, Anqaun Bolden's value is higher than AJ's.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by popanot

Strike for who? They never made any deal so apparently they feel Sheppard's value is pretty high. I dunno. I'm not saying they'd laugh at AJ, just that they'd laugh if we came to table asking Sheppard + a #1 or their 2 #1's for AJ. I doubt any team would give up that much for AJ. The guy was a top 5 pick, but it's not like he's produced big time numbers for someone to give up that much for him. At this point, and aside from his recent injury, Anqaun Bolden's value is higher than AJ's.

they feel sheppard's value is high or that roy williams/chad ocho crazo aren't worth sheppard or their 1sts. figures, because the chad isn't doing much, neither is anyone in la-la-land, michigan. frankly i think andre is better than both of them, and at least andre johnson has produced consistent numbers enough to get him a few probowls from a not very popular team and as a not as popular player (especially the position he plays). logic says if he was on a decent team his numbers would become even more stout.

specifically to a. bolden, the eagles were reported in going after him too if i can remember right. i guess either arizona thought boldin was worth more than any combo of sheppard/2 1st rounders, or the eagles want some kind of jerry rice/god combo at wideout for pennies.

either way, the only people who should be laughing is anyone who knows that if philly wants an elite wideout they're going to have to pony up to the elite price.

[Mike]

You know what, the mad AJ that we saw Sunday is not someone I want to trade. AJ commands too much attention and can just dominate. Can you imagine what he would do for a team with a real RB? Put him with Peterson and watch the Viking offense take off. With the hint of a running game, he is a deadly weapon.

We need to continue to get him the ball. Forget trading him. I would be sick if the team considered that. Trading away its best player would be detrimental to the franchise. What message would that send the fan base? The other players would be devestated. It sends the wrong message. We would be no better than the Pirates if we started doing crap like that.

[nunusguy]

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Tony Gonzalez, the most productive tight end in NFL history, will be traded to a contender if the Kansas City Chiefs get the right price.
ESPN's Michael Smith first reported the fact Gonzalez was to be shopped Saturday.
A league source confirmed to ESPN that Gonzalez went to Chiefs GM Carl Peterson and inquired about a trade to a contender earlier this week.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3638551
********************************
The Texans should do exactly the same thing if AJ or his agent were to
approach them. And the big difference here is that Gonzalez, great in his prime, at 32 is arguably on the downside of his career while AJ is a full 5 years
younger.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by popanot

Like I said, this topic is silly. Philly would laugh at either one of those offers.

I thought it was an interesting topic; that's why I took the time to sit down and type out my thoughts to share. Is it improbable? Sure. But, I think it's interesting nonetheless.

If you feel otherwise, you're more than welcome to ignore it. I don't really see how it's constructive to come in and belittle it like that though.

And, as KJ said, Philly was willing to give up Lito for Roy Williams or Chad Johnson straight up. I don't think it's inconcievable that a greater, younger talent; with no attitude; who's under contract, IIRC, for 6 more years garners an extra first in the deal.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I thought it was an interesting topic; that's why I took the time to sit down and type out my thoughts to share. Is it improbable? Sure. But, I think it's interesting nonetheless.

If you feel otherwise, you're more than welcome to ignore it. I don't really see how it's constructive to come in and belittle it like that though.

And, as KJ said, Philly was willing to give up Lito for Roy Williams or Chad Johnson straight up. I don't think it's inconcievable that a greater, younger talent; with no attitude; who's under contract, IIRC, for 6 more years garners an extra first in the deal.

Sorry, I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I'm saying no one would do that deal and it's crazy thinking someone will, or, to give up on our young talent at this point. Anyway, you're saying that AJ is worth Sheppard and a #1, but RW or CJ is only worth Sheppard? I don't think teams think as highly of AJ as we fans do. The Eagles were holding out for a #1 for Sheppard, so from Philly's perspective, they'd be giving up 2 #1s for AJ. They can find someone better or close to AJ's talent (Bolden, perhaps?) for cheaper than that. I can see Sheppard and a #2 or #3 or something like that, but not Sheppard + a #1.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by popanot

Sorry, I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I'm saying no one would do that deal and it's crazy thinking someone will, or, to give up on our young talent at this point. Anyway, you're saying that AJ is worth Sheppard and a #1, but RW or CJ is only worth Sheppard? I don't think teams think as highly of AJ as we fans do. The Eagles were holding out for a #1 for Sheppard, so from Philly's perspective, they'd be giving up 2 #1s for AJ. They can find someone better or close to AJ's talent (Bolden, perhaps?) for cheaper than that. I can see Sheppard and a #2 or #3 or something like that, but not Sheppard + a #1.

Yea, maybe that's why talks broke down. Philly wasn't willing to give up more than Shephard and the other teams wanted more back.