replacement refs

[Joe Joe]

I can see the bad call getting missed in real time. The fact that the replay guy missed it is hard to accept.

Edit...So I am hearing that simultaneous catch is not a review-able call. Bad call on the field. Bad rule if it is true that simultaneous catch can't be reviewed.

[painekiller]

The replacement refs have been a joke, time to get the real guys back. In my 40+ years of watching football that is the 2nd worse call that I have seen, Mike Renfro's catch in the endzone against Pittsburgh and yes I am biased and still pi$$ed.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Joe Joe

Edit...So I am hearing that simultaneous catch is not a review-able call. Bad call on the field. Bad rule if it is true that simultaneous catch can't be reviewed.

I think ESPN said that, but it's wrong. A simulteaneous catch is reviewable; the offensive pass interference non-call was not. Here's the rule:

Rule 15, Sec. 9
Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play situations only:
(a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
1. Scoring plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal line.
2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end zone, and end line.
3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
(b) Passing plays:
1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
5. Illegal forward pass beyond the line of scrimmage or from behind the line after the ball has been beyond the line.
6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.
(c) Other reviewable plays:
1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the
action that happens following the fumble.
3. Runner ruled out of bounds when the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action that
happens following the fumble.
4. Ruling of incomplete pass when the recovery of a passer’s fumble, or the recovery of a backward pass, by an
opponent or a teammate occurs in the action following the fumble or backward pass.
5. Ruling of a loose ball out of bounds when it is recovered in the field of play by an opponent or a teammate in the
action after the ball hits the ground.
Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact, out of bounds, or incomplete pass is changed, the ball belongs to the recovering
player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and any advance is nullified. If the ball goes out of bounds in an end zone,
the result of the play will be either a touchback or a safety.
Note 2: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as to which player recovered the loose ball, the ruling on the
field will stand.
Note 3: This does not apply to complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.
6. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
7. Touching of a kick.
8. A Field-goal or Try attempt that crosses below or above the crossbar, inside or outside the uprights when it is lower
than the top of the uprights, or touches anything.
9. Number of players on the field at the snap.
10. Illegal forward handoff.
11. A loose ball in play striking a video board, guide wire, sky cam, or any other object.
Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
3. Penalty administration
4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Recovery of a loose ball that does not involve a boundary line or the end zone.
7. Field-goal or Try attempts that cross above either upright without touching anything.
8. Inadvertent Whistle


Here's the simultaneous catch rule:

Rule 8, Sec. 1, Art. 3, Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

[barrett]

I read this morning that a simulteaneous catch in the endzone is reviewable, but not outside the endzone.

The NFL has a lot of screwy rules related to replay so they don't hurt the refs feelings (like not reviewing FGs over the post, doing the replay under a hood instead of in the booth with 10 large HD TVs, etc...). Part-time refs are likely not going to know those rules. It is one of the reasons it is amazing the NFL rolled the dice for so long with these guys. They have more difficult rules than any league.

It would be great if Goodell stared down the stars of the NFL and won, but then was cut down to size by some part-time little guys like the officials. I just hope the officials don't see last night and really dig in because they have public outcry on their side now.

[barrett]

And this from the NFL today...

The NFL said Tuesday that Seattle's last-second touchdown pass should not have been overturned -- but conceded Seahawks receiver Golden Tate should have been called for offensive pass interference before the catch.

So in other words, none of us saw what we saw.

Also, Pete Carrol is taking the high road as usual.

Pete Carroll said he understands why there is so much outrage about the call that awarded Tate a touchdown. But he said the call ruling it a simultaneous catch, which awards the reception to the offense, was correct.

If there was ever a time for the "we don't make the calls, we just control what we can" line, it was right here for Carrol. Or even a complete dodge and "I'm just proud of our guys for never giving up." Instead he defends the call because it happened for his team.

[HPF Bob]

There's no doubt that the quality of officiating has suffered but I think what has happened is that certain pro-union voices are trying to make every call seem like the worst call ever because they want public opinion to be so anti-replacement that the perception will be the NFL is turning off fans when, in reality, the fans are much happier watching football with replacement refs than watching no NFL football because of a lockout/strike on the refs.

The NFL has all the leverage here (as they did with the players) so the only thing the pro-union folks can do is hyperventilate about every questionable call to the point that they think they can force a settlement.

All in all, I think the refs have done ok with what they have to work with but they obviously aren't the real refs. I go back to botched call after botched call by the *real* union refs I saw last year and I ask "what's their excuse"?

If the baggage-handlers at the airport go on strike and the replacements break a mirror in your luggage, you might get miffed or you might just accept that it is better than having your baggage left on the tarmac because there was nobody there to put it on the plane.

[Nconroe]

The owners locked out refs even though refs said they'd work under old agreement while negotiating new contract.

The problem in addition to fill in refs have lost control of players and coaches is that team win loss record now impacted.

It was several horrible calls without correction last night, no pro union spin needed.

Games are like 45 min longer with repl refs.

Guys getting hurt due to lack of control, we are lucky Schaub wasn't hurt worse.

Atleast some negotation finally going last four days even though this has been a known problem for a year.

I like fairness and truth by all, don't think league giving us that.

Tv money drives league profits so owners don't have all the power.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

There's no doubt that the quality of officiating has suffered but I think what has happened is that certain pro-union voices are trying to make every call seem like the worst call ever because they want public opinion to be so anti-replacement that the perception will be the NFL is turning off fans when, in reality, the fans are much happier watching football with replacement refs than watching no NFL football because of a lockout/strike on the refs.

The NFL has all the leverage here (as they did with the players) so the only thing the pro-union folks can do is hyperventilate about every questionable call to the point that they think they can force a settlement.

All in all, I think the refs have done ok with what they have to work with but they obviously aren't the real refs. I go back to botched call after botched call by the *real* union refs I saw last year and I ask "what's their excuse"?

If the baggage-handlers at the airport go on strike and the replacements break a mirror in your luggage, you might get miffed or you might just accept that it is better than having your baggage left on the tarmac because there was nobody there to put it on the plane.

Ya, I agree with most of this.

So far IMO, the replacement refs have been doing a good job. When I see flubbed calls, delays in the game, etc, I accept it the same way I would tolerate a new employee as he/she learns the ropes - OJT. I'm pretty sure these fellas are trying the best they can. Ideally, the situation with the real refs will work itself out sooner rather than later but if it doesn't, I expect the replacements to get somewhat better as the season progresses.

As far as the MNF game goes, I had Seattle in my pickem leagues, so I thought it was a good call . J/k, it was a lousy call and should have been negated by the offensive PI. I will say, shame on Green Bay for playing like crap most of the game and letting it come down to that one play. Many, many plays in the game where they could've made a difference.... Many times in the past I've seen a close game decided by a player making a mistake (GQ anyone?). Too bad this game was decided by a referee making a mistake....

[HPF Bob]

The amazing thing is that how generally non-sinister the blown calls have been. If you watched the Sunday night game, you would have sworn the refs were doing a screw job on the Ravens but then on the final drive, all the calls went against the Patriots. Since I'm not rooting for either team, I don't really care the outcome (just like the GB-SEA game) but it sure seemed that if the refs were intentionally throwing a game, their calls don't reflect it.