Mario Trade Idea

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

If you can take care of foster, myers, brisel, and dreesen for $8 million, then you are a cap wizard and you have no need to get rid of Mario.

As for your scenario, it is great fun to imagine all the riches we can get for Mario. I am sure when the team makes a decision they will know whether he can be flipped for multiple 1st round picks or desean Jackson. And I am sure that will all be a consideration in the process.

I guess I should have been more clear with my comment. I forgot the and/or and meant to say if they can sign one or more of those guys. I don't think it's that far fetched to say they could use that ~$8MM to sign a combo of Meyers, Brisel and/or Dressen. Maybe Foster's out of that equation depending on what they want to do with his contract this year.

As for trading Mario for Jackson, I'm not the one who brought it up and was merely playing along in the thread. Do I think that trade would ever go down? Hell no! Mostly likely none of these player/player trades would ever go down and certainly not one for two major players (let alone two F-Tag players). Realistically, I think the Texans will be lucky if they can get a low 2012 #1, or a player and a pick, or two #2's for Mario.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'd like to see them try to get Cobb and a #2 from GB. I think that would be a realistic trade and I think GB is in a situation where they'd have to think long and hard about it. I also think GB is a team Mario would be receptive to being traded to since they're pretty damn good. I know they (at least, currently) run a 3-4, but their D was so bad last year I could see them making some changes and I don't think they'd pass up a pass-rushing defensive talent like Mario. Especially for the price of Cobb and a low #2.

Anyway, who knows what will happen? It's still fun to speculate and throw out names and be a pocket GM/Capologist for a day.

[WMH]

Originally Posted by popanot

I mentioned in this thread, I'd like to see them try to get Cobb and a #2 from GB. I think that would be a realistic trade and I think GB is in situation where they'd have to think long and hard about it. I also think it would be a team Mario would be receptive to since they're pretty damn good. I know they (currently) run a 3-4, but their D was so bad last year I could see some changes being made and I don't think they'd pass up a pass-rusher with Mario's talent. Anyway, who know what will happen? It still fun to speculate and throw names out and be a GM/Capologist for a day.

Only downside to your GB scenario is the vast differences between Wade's 3-4 and just about every other 3-4 out there. Hard for me to remember, since I drank away most of those games, but I believe that Capers 3-4 is more of the traditional variety, IE Mario would definitely be a square peg in a round hole, and he might not be worth the cash as a 3-4 DE in a "traditional" system.

[NBT]

As for keeping Mario because of his passrush ability, that would be allright, but certainly not mandatory now that we have Connor Barwin, Brooks Reed, and J.J. Watt to do that for us. No, I think our best bet would be to franchise Mario and get the best pass reciever/PR available, which would appear to be DeSean Jackson and whoever we can get out of the Draft.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by WMH

Only downside to your GB scenario is the vast differences between Wade's 3-4 and just about every other 3-4 out there. Hard for me to remember, since I drank away most of those games, but I believe that Capers 3-4 is more of the traditional variety, IE Mario would definitely be a square peg in a round hole, and he might not be worth the cash as a 3-4 DE in a "traditional" system.

Very valid points. However, with a guru like Capers, I bet he'd be able to find a role for him whether it be at OLB or a 3-4 DE. Actually, I'd be surprised if Capers isn't on this thin ice up there, and at minimum, is forced to make some changes with the scheme and certainly the personnel. That D was about as bad as it gets and certainly was a major factor in losing that playoff game.

I just tossed out that trade idea b/c I thought it'd be a good match value-wise. There are other young and talented WR/PRs out there (Denarius Moore, Maclin, Harvin, etc...), but I don't think the teams are as deep and have the luxury of giving them up, or, they're just not good trade partners. For example, MINN probably wouldn't give up Harvin (same with PHL/Maclin) and I wouldn't want to trade with an AFC team, if at all possible. However, I could see GB willing to give up Cobb since they're so deep at WR and see Mario as pretty good value there.

[popanot]

I could've said Mario to the Cowpies for Dez Bryant. Yes, I'm kidding...

[HPF Bob]

Kubiak likes large WRs who can block. His ideal was the Rod Smith/Ed McCaffery duo of the Super Bowl Broncos. For that reason, I don't think he'd want DeSean Jackson, even with the maturity issues. But I keep asking myself how a defense can cover Jackson, AJ, Daniels and Foster without leaving someone exposed.

For the record, I'd be happy with Mario coming back but I do think he would command a lot on the open market and his cap money would allow us to do a lot of other things.

[itssharif]

Originally Posted by barrett

If you can take care of foster, myers, brisel, and dreesen for $8 million, then you are a cap wizard and you have no need to get rid of Mario.

As for your scenario, it is great fun to imagine all the riches we can get for Mario. I am sure when the team makes a decision they will know whether he can be flipped for multiple 1st round picks or desean Jackson. And I am sure that will all be a consideration in the process.

Also you have to remember that the cap goes up every year. If it goes up let's say 7 mil this year you're looking at an additional 15 mil dollars in this scenario.

As far as the Mario situation look if it's up to me I'd hate to see him go. He is match-up nightmare for defenses and could make our defense even better. But honestly we have to start thinking now about the greater good and the specialness that is happening right before our eyes with our Texans and that is the team chemistry and camaraderie that is needed for successful TEAMS to develop. If we lose 1 player to gain another and use that extra money towards keeping our core group of guys it'll be an overall plus for our team.

Lastly this topic of headcases and people attacking me for suggesting DeSean Jackson. Who the hell is ok with losing? Nobody. DeSean Jackson probably was pissed last year but because they were not doing the things they should have been doing (WINNING). Compound that with not getting paid when he definitely deserved it I'm sure it must have been a tough situation for him. But you show me one person that could make an argument to me that if he replaced Jacoby Jones in our locker room this offseason that this wouldn't be a better move. Is he going to be as productive a #2 receiver for us as he was for Philly probably not because Michael Vick definitely does have a rifle for an arm and can throw DeSean open definitely. But you can't say this guy can't still be a threat for whichever team he plays on.

It's just a suggestion but I sincerely believe this would be a tremendous upgrade for us, lower our cap number, get us out of this Jacoby Jones lottery of whether or not he will field the punt or not, and finally give Schaub a legitimate #2. Finally last but not least this is an incredibly realistic scenario AND trust me winning cures all, which is all that the Texans will hopefully be doing from now on. DeSean Jackson will be just fine getting paid and seeing the W's come to the team's way.

And that's just my take!

[cadams]

this draft is supposedly very deep at the WR position. if we trade mario the i sure as hell don't want it to be for a wide receiver wanting a new big contract. i was on the fence about mario before, but the mroe i think about it the more i want them to keep him around long term, my guess is they will, and will get creative with contract guarentees to take advantage of the incvreasing cap over the next few years.

for anyone suggesting that foster may have to wait another year, i think that would be the worst possible result of any scenario you could throw out. before the season, bob mcnair told foster and his agent that if he followed up last year with another solid year (which he did), they would take care of him. if they try to push him off it could have an impact not only on foster (holding out), but in future negotiations with players. when the owner makes a statement like that, it HAS to be honored.

[WMH]

I'm wondering if applying the tag is a game they will play. A tag @ $22ishMM is not something they can absorb. If they apply it, and don't find a trade partner, the agent/Mario has no reason whatsoever to "make a deal." He then has the Texans by the balls. If they reach a stalemate, some pretty significant folks might have to get the ax to get under the cap. Other teams know the same scenario, so why would they want to give up a package of now affordable picks for a guy they know the Texans can't afford without chopping some significant heads. Pretty dangerous game if you ask me.

They might make a legimate effort to keep him around, without applying the tag. If it doesn't work, then he walks.

He walks, the Texans not only have money for Foster, Myers, and Dressen, but could also be in play for a lower-upper tier FA WR.

Food for thought on this dreary, rainy, Wednesday morning.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by WMH

I'm wondering if applying the tag is a game they will play. A tag @ $22ishMM is not something they can absorb. If they apply it, and don't find a trade partner, the agent/Mario has no reason whatsoever to "make a deal." He then has the Texans by the balls. If they reach a stalemate, some pretty significant folks might have to get the ax to get under the cap. Other teams know the same scenario, so why would they want to give up a package of now affordable picks for a guy they know the Texans can't afford without chopping some significant heads. Pretty dangerous game if you ask me.

They might make a legimate effort to keep him around, without applying the tag. If it doesn't work, then he walks.

He walks, the Texans not only have money for Foster, Myers, and Dressen, but could also be in play for a lower-upper tier FA WR.

Food for thought on this dreary, rainy, Wednesday morning.

I don't think it would be that hard to make a deal. Sure teams may know we don't want to keep him, but knowing we may not keep him and having him on your team is two different things. If I am another team and I want Mario, I can make a deal with Houston or be one of a half a dozen teams bidding in FA and wondering where he wants to go.

Another team knowing we will get rid of him only takes away leverage if they know they are the team he will choose in FA.

[WMH]

Originally Posted by barrett

I don't think it would be that hard to make a deal. Sure teams may know we don't want to keep him, but knowing we may not keep him and having him on your team is two different things. If I am another team and I want Mario, I can make a deal with Houston or be one of a half a dozen teams bidding in FA and wondering where he wants to go.

Another team knowing we will get rid of him only takes away leverage if they know they are the team he will choose in FA.

I hear ya, but one comes before the other, meaning the tag will be placed prior to FA begining. So playing those against each other really doesn't work in this instance. If he is a trade candidate, then that means he is tagged, and he has no FA rights.

So, will multiple teams be interested in trading high value, lower $ cost, picks for him? That's the only way the price gets reasonable in the Texans favor. And will the Texans make a $22MM gamble that they can pull off a trade?

[cadams]

i believe that the texans can recind the franchise tag within a certain amount of time from when he signs the tender.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by cadams

i believe that the texans can recind the franchise tag within a certain amount of time from when he signs the tender.

They can rescind it anytime until he signs it, but once he signs it there's a binding, one-year contract. Most guys who get tagged aren't in a big rush to sign the tender because they'd rather try to work out a long-term deal or try to somehow finagle out of the tag so they can hit the open market. There are exceptions, though -- in 2009 Matt Cassel signed his $14 million tender from the Patriots two days after it was offered. After he was traded to the Chiefs he renegotiated that into a six-year contract with $28 million guaranteed.

[cadams]

yeah, i know it was like that in the past, but i thought i heard something on the radio that said there was something different in the new cba on this issue. i could have misheard it though.

[WMH]

Originally Posted by Warren

They can rescind it anytime until he signs it, but once he signs it there's a binding, one-year contract. Most guys who get tagged aren't in a big rush to sign the tender because they'd rather try to work out a long-term deal or try to somehow finagle out of the tag so they can hit the open market. There are exceptions, though -- in 2009 Matt Cassel signed his $14 million tender from the Patriots two days after it was offered. After he was traded to the Chiefs he renegotiated that into a six-year contract with $28 million guaranteed.

Good info from you and cadams. I wasn't aware that it could be rescinded. If Mario would have to sign the tender prior to being traded, doesn't that mean that we would have to have cap room for that tag. Could be a big obstacle, even if it is a short term one, as, IIRC, I don't think the league is real lenient with that.

I asked Paul K @ ESPN regarding the actual tag #, and he is thinking it is closer to $16MM than $22MM. Who the hell knows, but neither figure is good for us in this spot.

While I am not opposed to trading, resigning him, or letting him walk, I don't think the tag and trade is going to be a very easy task.

[Joshua]

Originally Posted by WMH

I asked Paul K @ ESPN regarding the actual tag #, and he is thinking it is closer to $16MM than $22MM. Who the hell knows, but neither figure is good for us in this spot.

While I am not opposed to trading, resigning him, or letting him walk, I don't think the tag and trade is going to be a very easy task.

To me, the possibility that the tag number is closer to $16 mill than $22 mill is pretty big news. With that number, I think franchising him might still be doable, as this is about what he's been counting against the cap for the last couple years. Think of it this way, last year Mario counted about that against the cap. How come everyone wasn't screaming that we have to cut Mario and save this $16 mill? Just look at 2012 as if he still had 1 year left on his contract.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Joshua

To me, the possibility that the tag number is closer to $16 mill than $22 mill is pretty big news. With that number, I think franchising him might still be doable, as this is about what he's been counting against the cap for the last couple years. Think of it this way, last year Mario counted about that against the cap. How come everyone wasn't screaming that we have to cut Mario and save this $16 mill? Just look at 2012 as if he still had 1 year left on his contract.

Whatever the number is, it will be %20 additional to what he made last year. If your previous salary is higher than the average of top 5 you get your previous salary plus %20.

So whatever the number, Mario will count +%20 if we franchise him. So basically an extra $3-4 million from this year.

[NBT]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

Kubiak likes large WRs who can block. His ideal was the Rod Smith/Ed McCaffery duo of the Super Bowl Broncos. For that reason, I don't think he'd want DeSean Jackson, even with the maturity issues. But I keep asking myself how a defense can cover Jackson, AJ, Daniels and Foster without leaving someone exposed.

For the record, I'd be happy with Mario coming back but I do think he would command a lot on the open market and his cap money would allow us to do a lot of other things.

Smith and McCaferty, I think, had more speed and moves and got open consistantly, whereas Kevin Walter is slow and can't get consistant separation within the time limits. Jacoby Jones is quick and fast but he is too much the hotdog without the hands to go with it. And consistant, he ain't!

I agree with you on Mario.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by WMH

If Mario would have to sign the tender prior to being traded, doesn't that mean that we would have to have cap room for that tag. Could be a big obstacle, even if it is a short term one, as, IIRC, I don't think the league is real lenient with that.

The tender counts against the cap as soon as the player is tagged, even before it is signed. On the plus side, since there's no bonus with a tender, if you trade a guy who has signed his tender there isn't any dead money left against your cap.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by NBT

Smith and McCaferty, I think, had more speed and moves and got open consistantly, whereas Kevin Walter is slow and can't get consistant separation within the time limits. Jacoby Jones is quick and fast but he is too much the hotdog without the hands to go with it. And consistant, he ain't!

I agree with you on Mario.

McCaferty was a slow white guy who I recall being maybe only as fast as Walters best-case comparison, he was a total possession receiver. But Rod Smith had descent long speed and was light-years superior to JJ in most categories.
It's tough to have a WR make a significant contribution to a team his rookie year, but there's exceptions. I remember Andres rookie year in a game vs Buffalo where he broke a couple tackles after making a catch and then flashed his speed by out running the rest of the Bills secondary. It was a long run, like around 50 yards, and was as I recall the difference in a low scoring game that day. Anyway, in that single play in Johnsons rookie year he not only made a big contribution to win a game but the Texans knew they drafted the right guy with their #3 overall. We'll probably have to be more patient with our next WR we draft, even if he's a first-rounder.