Mario Williams for Asante Samuel?

[barrett]

34 DE is a different animal than the 43 DE so it is not a given that Mario just goes back to DE if this doesn't work. For proof of the difference look at how disruptive Antonio Smith was in Arizona's 34 and then how mediocre he was here, and how much better he has looked this preseason back in a 34. And Watt looks great there. I think I would honestly rather have an uncomfortable OLB Mario at 50% of what he can be as a 43 DE, than move either of those guys. Not to mention we ran our whole draft on the idea mario was playing OLB. My guess is that a trade is not a possibility, Mario will play 16 games at OLB, will not have the impact of past seasons (and it is not his fault), and he is gone for whatever we can get for him after a franchise tag next fall.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by barrett

34 DE is a different animal than the 43 DE so it is not a given that Mario just goes back to DE if this doesn't work. For proof of the difference look at how disruptive Antonio Smith was in Arizona's 34 and then how mediocre he was here, and how much better he has looked this preseason back in a 34. And Watt looks great there. I think I would honestly rather have an uncomfortable OLB Mario at 50% of what he can be as a 43 DE, than move either of those guys. Not to mention we ran our whole draft on the idea mario was playing OLB. My guess is that a trade is not a possibility, Mario will play 16 games at OLB, will not have the impact of past seasons (and it is not his fault), and he is gone for whatever we can get for him after a franchise tag next fall.

I think you're exactly right on all of this. I doubt the team would get fair value in a trade right now. These new guys are supposed to be defensive gurus so let's give them a year to let them figure out how to use Mario most effectively and let's give Mario a year to try to make it happen and see where we are after the year's over. I'd rather have an uncomfortable Mario playing outside than have him gum up the DL rotation that appears to be taking shape very nicely.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by barrett

Not to mention we ran our whole draft on the idea mario was playing OLB.

Big assumption and the sort of thing that people like us who are not privy to the internal plans/strategy within the Texans organizations can only guess about. My own personal theory is that all the pre-draft rumors about the Texans using their top pick on Mizzou pass-rusher Aldon Smith were for real,
leaving one to further speculate what the Texans planned to do with Mario in that scenario ? The obvious conclusion to draw was that he would remain a downlineman, but knowing he might react unfavorably to such a plan for him to be a 3-4 DE, perhaps they had preliminary discussions with a couple of teams about trading him when the lockout was concluded and a new CBA was in place ?

[WMH]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

Big assumption and the sort of thing that people like us who are not privy to the internal plans/strategy within the Texans organizations can only guess about. My own personal theory is that all the pre-draft rumors about the Texans using their top pick on Mizzou pass-rusher Aldon Smith were for real,
leaving one to further speculate what the Texans planned to do with Mario in that scenario ? The obvious conclusion to draw was that he would remain a downlineman, but knowing he might react unfavorably to such a plan for him to be a 3-4 DE, perhaps they had preliminary discussions with a couple of teams about trading him when the lockout was concluded and a new CBA was in place ?

You might be right, but recall that Phillips said Mario would be an OLB way before the draft. While Smith was likely their #1 option, when he wasn't available they moved to Watt, and had an OLB pegged for the 2nd (Reed fell in their laps, but other options were there too). You can't have too many quality LB's in a 3-4, so I think they were just covering bases. I could be wrong of course, but I'm thinking Mario @ OLB has been in the plans since February.

[popanot]

Keep in mind Barwin was coming off an injury and is still a relative unknown since hasn't really played much. They could have been targeting Smith as a replacement or as insurance to Barwin.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by popanot

Keep in mind Barwin was coming off an injury and is still a relative unknown since hasn't really played much. They could have been targeting Smith as a replacement or as insurance to Barwin.

True on both counts.
Yea, we are really totally lacking experience at OLB which is such an integral part of the 3-4. Mario, Barwin, and all the rookies including Brooks are all coming from a background as 4-3 DEs if I'm not mistaken ?

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by WMH

You might be right, but recall that Phillips said Mario would be an OLB way before the draft. While Smith was likely their #1 option, when he wasn't available they moved to Watt, and had an OLB pegged for the 2nd (Reed fell in their laps, but other options were there too). You can't have too many quality LB's in a 3-4, so I think they were just covering bases. I could be wrong of course, but I'm thinking Mario @ OLB has been in the plans since February.

Did not know that Wade made that statement pre-Draft ? If that's true, then I'm definitely all wet about my theory.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

Big assumption and the sort of thing that people like us who are not privy to the internal plans/strategy within the Texans organizations can only guess about. My own personal theory is that all the pre-draft rumors about the Texans using their top pick on Mizzou pass-rusher Aldon Smith were for real,
leaving one to further speculate what the Texans planned to do with Mario in that scenario ? The obvious conclusion to draw was that he would remain a downlineman, but knowing he might react unfavorably to such a plan for him to be a 3-4 DE, perhaps they had preliminary discussions with a couple of teams about trading him when the lockout was concluded and a new CBA was in place ?

Whether it was the plan before or after Aldon Smith got drafted I have no idea. I do know Mario asked/demanded OLB well before the draft because DE in the 34 is not known as a playmaking role. Wade tagged him an OLB after that. Then they drafted accordingly. They sure didn't take Watt to make him the 3rd DE. And if they had preliminary discussions about trading him (was that allowed in the lockout?), then it still means the plan was no Mario at DE.

The point of my earlier post was to say Mario is not going back to DE now and it is naive to think he could adjust to that new position with no training camp after he couldn't adjust to this new position with a training camp. Mario Williams is our OLB. Smith and Watt are our DEs. I seriously cannot see any way that changes.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by barrett

Whether it was the plan before or after Aldon Smith got drafted I have no idea. I do know Mario asked/demanded OLB well before the draft because DE in the 34 is not known as a playmaking role. Wade tagged him an OLB after that. Then they drafted accordingly. They sure didn't take Watt to make him the 3rd DE. And if they had preliminary discussions about trading him (was that allowed in the lockout?), then it still means the plan was no Mario at DE.

The point of my earlier post was to say Mario is not going back to DE now and it is naive to think he could adjust to that new position with no training camp after he couldn't adjust to this new position with a training camp. Mario Williams is our OLB. Smith and Watt are our DEs. I seriously cannot see any way that changes.

Everything you say may be true, but I wonder what happens if Wade decides that the Texans would have a more effective defense with Barwin & Reed as the starting OLBs and a frontline of Mario & Antonio at DE with JJ at nose ? Since some of us already have reached that conclusion, maybe Phillips has to but that certainly dosen't make it any easier for him & Kubiak to explain and convince Mario about that ? In other words would the big guy take one for the team ?
But I defintely disagree with you about there being a big difference between the 4-3 & 3-4 DE positions, because they are both based upon one-gap schemes as opposed to the traditional 2-gap, containment type of DE most people (including Mario) associate with the 3-4.
And I would hope the Texans just kinda winked at that no-contact-or-discussion-with-other-teams rule supposedly was in place during the Lockout like say the Eagles almost certainly did when it came to discussions about trading QB Kolb ?

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

Everything you say may be true, but I wonder what happens if Wade decides that the Texans would have a more effective defense with Barwin & Reed as the starting OLBs and a frontline of Mario & Antonio at DE with JJ at nose ? Since some of us already have reached that conclusion, maybe Phillips has to but that certainly dosen't make it any easier for him & Kubiak to explain and convince Mario about that ? In other words would the big guy take one for the team ?
But I defintely disagree with you about there being a big difference between the 4-3 & 3-4 DE positions, because they are both based upon one-gap schemes as opposed to the traditional 2-gap, containment type of DE most people (including Mario) associate with the 3-4.
And I would hope the Texans just kinda winked at that no-contact-or-discussion-with-other-teams rule supposedly was in place during the Lockout like say the Eagles almost certainly did when it came to discussions about trading QB Kolb ?

You really think that there is no difference between 34 DE and 43 DE? No matter the 34 scheme it is different. Ours may be a one gap scheme with more penetration than most 34s, but it is still a whole different position. 34 DE is as close to 43 DT as it is to DE.

And no way do I move a guy who is playing great (Watt), in order to put a guy who is struggling in another new postition. I rotate and play all of the guys I have in the exact way I have been and I hope mario gets more comfortable as he goes.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by barrett

You really think that there is no difference between 34 DE and 43 DE? No matter the 34 scheme it is different. Ours may be a one gap scheme with more penetration than most 34s, but it is still a whole different position. 34 DE is as close to 43 DT as it is to DE.

There's a difference between 3-4 DE & 4-3 DE, but it's not that dramatic when both are one-gap assignment-positions. Certainly not like going from DE with hand on the ground to OLB, which is a giant adjustment.

And no way do I move a guy who is playing great (Watt), in order to put a guy who is struggling in another new postition. I rotate and play all of the guys I have in the exact way I have been and I hope mario gets more comfortable as he goes.

Yes perhaps Mario is struggling at OLB, but we need to get our best players on the field and he's a Pro-Bowl DE while it appears our best edge-rushers from the OLB positions are Barwin & Reed, while the move of Watt to NT is intriguing and this gets all of our best frontend playmakers on the field at once.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

Yes perhaps Mario is struggling at OLB, but we need to get our best players on the field and he's a Pro-Bowl DE while it appears our best edge-rushers from the OLB positions are Barwin & Reed, while the move of Watt to NT is intriguing and this gets all of our best frontend playmakers on the field at once.

I get that concept, get the playmakers on the field and tell them to make plays. Watts makes plays where ever he is, well at least that is what he did at Wisconsin. So the premise is not far fetched.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

There's a difference between 3-4 DE & 4-3 DE, but it's not that dramatic when both are one-gap assignment-positions. Certainly not like going from DE with hand on the ground to OLB, which is a giant adjustment.


Yes perhaps Mario is struggling at OLB, but we need to get our best players on the field and he's a Pro-Bowl DE while it appears our best edge-rushers from the OLB positions are Barwin & Reed, while the move of Watt to NT is intriguing and this gets all of our best frontend playmakers on the field at once.

It is a big difference. Why do you think the DL in a 34 is sometimes referred to as LT, NG, RT. They are as much like a DT in a 50 front as they are like a DE. They line up inside and face different types of blockers. They play in traffic and get cut way more. The physical toll is greater. Athleticism is not as valuable and hand fighting is more valuable. None of this has to do with one gap vs 2 gap, it is about playing inside vs outside. It is a big adjustment and a guy who has never done it cannot be reasonably expected to make the switch with a week of preseason practice and no game time.

As for the playmakers on the field, you are operating on the theory that 7 guys play in front 7. That is not the case. Guys rotate on all downs, and on 3rd down, Mario is likely to be lined up with a hand on the ground like a 43 DE anyways. Watt and Smith are as likely to be lined up inside in a 4 man front or an unbalanced 3 man front with a standing LB/DE.

On first and second down we do not need to get smaller and get more playmakers on the field. We need to keep doing what we are doing and hope Mario gets more and more comfortable.