What's in the Texans booth?

[chuck]

Originally Posted by Arky

re: Moats fumble, I don't think anybody at the time thought it was a fumble. Not until the replays started showing did things start getting iffy....

Not trying to jump you but I was watching the game over a freaking sling box feed and I was immediately concerned that he'd fumbled. It was way too close for the team to be nonchalanting around.

Like everyone else I don't know whether the coaches in the box have access to a video feed or not. I'll try to look on the 23rd in Reliant, but from my vantage point it's almost impossible to tell. For example, I know perfectly well that the radio guys have video but I can't see their monitors from where I sit.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by chuck

Not trying to jump you but I was watching the game over a freaking sling box feed and I was immediately concerned that he'd fumbled. It was way too close for the team to be nonchalanting around.

Well, that's just the whole crux of it right there. You and many others felt they needed to rush a play - the coaches thought there was nothing wrong and saw no need to.

Fans 1, Coaches 0. Hindsight is wonderful.

[Arky]

On another note, Kubiak mentioned yesterday on his radio show that they submitted a case to the league regarding this play. I would not be surprised if this play shows up on the NFLN show with Mike Pereira later this week...

[Arky]

Here, from the Chron:

Fumbled call
The Texans thought the officials on the field made the correct call when they ruled running back Ryan Moats was out of bounds when he lost the ball with 2:30 left in the first half of Sunday's 20-17 loss to the Colts.

The Texans displayed a picture Monday that showed safety Antoine Bethea was out of bounds with Moats on top of him and the ball coming out. If Bethea was out of bounds, everything that happened afterward shouldn't have been considered.

Even though the officials blew their whistles that the play was over, referee Jeff Triplette changed the call after reviewing it. He ruled the ball came out when Moats was on top of Bethea and that Bethea was in bounds.

Triplette said cornerback Jerraud Powers had picked up the ball on the goal line, but because he had been out of bounds and had one foot out of bounds when he picked up the ball, it was ruled a fumble out of the end zone and a Colts touchback.

When the officials blew their whistles, the play should have been dead, and Powers' picking up the ball would have been moot.

“I haven't talked to anybody yet,” coach Gary Kubiak said about conferring with the NFL office. “We filed our report, and then we'll get a response back.”

Silence not golden
After Ryan Moats was ruled down at the Colts' 1, the Texans lined up to run the next play, but Gary Kubiak told Matt Schaub to let the clock run until the two-minute warning. Kubiak expected to score, and he didn't want Colts quarterback Peyton Manning to get the ball back with enough time to score.

None of his coaches in the booth told Kubiak to run a play before Indianapolis could challenge the fumble. During the two-minute break, the Colts watched replays, and coach Jim Caldwell challenged that it was a fumble, and the play was overturned.

“You've got six guys in the booth,” Kubiak said. “Headset-wise, you're hooked into just certain people, but I want them all to look. I want to hear everybody's opinion — the guys on the field, the guys in the booth. But ultimately it's my decision, so I've got to listen and go from there.”

[popanot]

Originally Posted by Arky

Well, that's just the whole crux of it right there. You and many others felt they needed to rush a play - the coaches thought there was nothing wrong and saw no need to.

Fans 1, Coaches 0. Hindsight is wonderful.

If there's any doubt, which judging by Kubiak's presser comments "we knew Moats fumbled, but assumed he was out of bounds" there was, you still get up to the line quickly and a run a play. Most teams would have done that (I bet the Colts would have) instead of lolly-gagging around or worrying about leaving Peyton too much time. Sure hindsight is wonderful, but someone should have been smart enough to recognize the possibility of a fumble there (Moats, Schaub, the coaches on the field or booth...) and taken appropriate measures to ensure we kept possession of the ball. That one play might have lost us the game.

[Joshua]

Originally Posted by popanot

If there's any doubt, which judging by Kubiak's presser comments "we knew Moats fumbled, but assumed he was out of bounds" there was, you still get up to the line quickly and a run a play. Most teams would have done that (I bet the Colts would have) instead of lolly-gagging around or worrying about leaving Peyton too much time. Sure hindsight is wonderful, but someone should have been smart enough to recognize the possibility of a fumble there (Moats, Schaub, the coaches on the field or booth...) and taken appropriate measures to ensure we kept possession of the ball. That one play might have lost us the game.

Agreed. You have the ball on the 2 freakin' yard line. You cannot leave a questionable call up to the refs if you have the ability to control your own destiny. And I agree that Manning would have definitely ran a play, as I've seen him do it numerous times after close calls. That's what good teams do. Winning and losing in the NFL is regularly decided by these sorts of things and we need to get better at getting them right.

I mean, what this boils down to was we were willing to trade potentially turning the ball over on the 2 yardline so we could run 5 extra seconds off the clock. That's a terrible tradeoff.

[cadams]

man, i don't know how anyone can defend what the texans' coaches did on this one. if there is even a 1% chance it could be overturned on a challenge you do everything you can to avoid that. especially when you are down 13 to the colts IN indy. not to mention that was the first drive they actually moced the ball. the only people who didn't think that they should snap the ball before the 2 minute warning was the texans sidelines . . .or i should say the coaches. dunta said in an interview that there were several players on the texans' sideline yelling at them to snap the ball as well because it was too close to chance

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by popanot

If there's any doubt, which judging by Kubiak's presser comments "we knew Moats fumbled, but assumed he was out of bounds" there was, you still get up to the line quickly and a run a play. Most teams would have done that (I bet the Colts would have) instead of lolly-gagging around or worrying about leaving Peyton too much time. Sure hindsight is wonderful, but someone should have been smart enough to recognize the possibility of a fumble there (Moats, Schaub, the coaches on the field or booth...) and taken appropriate measures to ensure we kept possession of the ball. That one play might have lost us the game.

Kubiak said "we knew Moats fumbled, but assumed he was out of bounds", basically tells the story: takin along with what I "assume" was a report from his people upstairs who had to see what we all saw on the TV replay should have been sufficient enough for him to quickly instruct Schaub to run a play, but he and his-staff apparently just wern't nimble enough to make that happen.

[Nconroe]

what I heard Coach Kubiak also clarify on 610 Monday evening, is they felt like the safety who Moats was on top of, touched the ball while he was out of bounds, ie. the ball was touched out of bounds and that established the fumble out of bounds.

If they are correct on the out of bounds touch, then it is defensible and refs blew it. I guess film is sent to league for review.

And, that would be consistent with the call on the field at the time, which was overturned.

Other than that, hope it's a good learning experinece for all in the future.

And, we need to stop turning over the ball, hard to win if you loose the turnover battle.

[NBT]

What concerns me is that we continue to make these gaffs. Why can't we be more on top of the situation? And I didn't have to use hindsight on the play. I saw Moats with his elbow flying and started thinking, here we go again. The ball started coming out right then ,he rolled over Bethea, the ball bounced off Moats middle, but stayed in bounds. The other defender saw what happened, quickly jumped back in bounds, by which time the ball had wriggled onto the white line for the endzone, and picked it up. Weird, but that is the reason Indy got it on the 20 as a touchback. Kubiak and his crew just blew the time afterwards, resulting in Indy getting the ball.

[Nconroe]

Hmm, I guess it is just my perception, I think the coaching decisions in general are better this year and getting better all the time. We seem to be learning what plays work on offense and defense. We seem to be making more good calls when we toss the flag. Clock management seems to be improving. I'm not sure this particular scenario has ever come up before for any coach, exactly as presented anyways.

Overall game management comes with a maturing staff and players both, being together for a while.

Maybe we need a rule like a coach has 1 minute to throw the red flag, after that it is the same as the next play has been run. this time it took a long time to get the red flag thrown.

And, you guys could also complain about all the bad ref's calls. How about the horse collar on JJ they didn't call? How about motion penalty they called about 20 seconds after play was over rather than as play started.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by popanot

If there's any doubt, which judging by Kubiak's presser comments "we knew Moats fumbled, but assumed he was out of bounds" there was, you still get up to the line quickly and a run a play. Most teams would have done that (I bet the Colts would have) instead of lolly-gagging around or worrying about leaving Peyton too much time.

I don't think that was the actual quote but yeah, that's what Kubiak meant. It doesn't help when the refs initially rule "no fumble". (Again, watching it real time, I didn't think it was a fumble or even that close. Not till the replays started coming did I "see" it). Any replay would have to have conclusive proof to overturn it. And according to the refs, there was conclusive proof.

I just don't see it as the boneheaded play some of you do. IMO, it was just a little perfect storm of bad fortune....

Sure hindsight is wonderful, but someone should have been smart enough to recognize the possibility of a fumble there (Moats, Schaub, the coaches on the field or booth...) and taken appropriate measures to ensure we kept possession of the ball. That one play might have lost us the game.

Yeah, or it could have been the six 1st downs the Texans gave Indy via penalty. Or the missed K Brown FG. Or the Schaub INT's.... The Texans didn't lose the game on one play.

The deal is, what can you do about it now? If you're the Texans, you learn from it and move on...

[popanot]

Originally Posted by Arky

Yeah, or it could have been the six 1st downs the Texans gave Indy via penalty. Or the missed K Brown FG. Or the Schaub INT's.... The Texans didn't lose the game on one play.

The deal is, what can you do about it now? If you're the Texans, you learn from it and move on...

I'm not saying that was the ONLY play that cost them the game. You can go back in any game and find numerous plays that could have changed the outcome had it gone differently. However, this was one play that was big enough to potentially (likely) be a 7 point swing that could have easily been avoided had someone been paying attention and thought through or reacted to the situation.

Of course, there's nothing we can do about it now other than look at an important notch in the L column and hope we can steal one from them at home. As for learning, how long does Kubiak et al need to figure this stuff out? IMO, this was modern-day NFL Football 101. If there's any doubt, get up and snap the damn ball and let the chips fall where they may!! There shouldn't have been any thought to it. It should have been common reaction. Judging by the fact Schaub let ~7 seconds or so run off the clock while standing there with the offense lined up at the LOS, the Colts were not prepared to throw the flag until we gave them time to look at it.

I don't know... I can understand how Kubiak and crew screwed it up, and yes, there's noting we can do about it now, but it's frustrating nontheless.

[Joshua]

I guess my point is that this is just the latest in a fairly long line of screwups by the coaching staff. Also, I try my best not to be a Monday morning QB who complains about a call only after it doesn't work. However, in this case, I (and apparently a lot of other people) knew, in real time, that Moats may have fumbled and were screaming at the TV to snap the ball. This wasn't hindsight.

Sadly, this isn't the first time I've screamed at my TV for the Texans to do something. Reminds me of the Jags game last year when I was screaming for them to call a timeout when we had our punt unit on the field when the Jags had their starting offense out there. I don't claim to be smarter than Kubes and the rest of the staff. That's why it is so mindboggling to me that they don't see the stuff that even I can see.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by Joshua

.....This wasn't hindsight.

Again, there was just as many people thinking "nothing wrong".

Originally Posted by Joshua

I guess my point is that this is just the latest in a fairly long line of screwups by the coaching staff.

The coaching staff thought they made the right decison at the time. (And apparently they still do as they have sent in a report to the league office).

Coaching screwups, bad play calls, misuse of the clock - stuff like that happens to all coaching staffs. You hope your team makes as few blunders as possible. (How about the Colts calling timeout and giving K Brown a second chance on the missed the FG? Or taking the ball out of Peyton's hand and letting Reggie Wayne chunk it? How dumb does that look?) You have to get use to a little bit of it.... Doesn't mean you have to like it - but you should be able to tolerate a certain amount...

I don't place this particular incident squarely on the coaches - rather it was a "team" fail. Moats/Schaub/someone other than a few voices on the sidelines could have said "f*** it, we gotta run a play now". Of course, I say this in hindsight....

[cadams]

Originally Posted by Arky

It doesn't help when the refs initially rule "no fumble".

Well, if they had ruled it as fumble initially, we wouldn't be talking about it because the texans wouldn't have had the opportunity to quickly snap the ball

[Arky]

Originally Posted by cadams

Well, if they had ruled it as fumble initially, we wouldn't be talking about it because the texans wouldn't have had the opportunity to quickly snap the ball

For the umpteenth time, the coaches thought: Still our ball, no problem, let's go on to the next play. Had it been ruled a fumble initially, I think you would have seen the Texans throw the red flag.

Originally Posted by cadams

you are missing the point here. it doesn't matter if they thought it wasn't a fumble or not. if it is close enough that the other side could challenge it you DON'T PUT THE DICISION IN SOMEONE ELSE'S HANDS

No, I understand the point quite well, thankyouverymuch. One more time: the coaches nor the players on the field thought it was close. Got it?

---------------------

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoitRyfqmUA

Interesting that the announcers didn't mention fumble until the different replay angles started showing....

Check out the Colt tackler - out of bounds? Or does it matter?

I want to hear what Mike Pereira says on this one....

[Joshua]

Arky,

At this point, I think it's safe to say that we must agree to disagree. However, there have been reports that Dunta said after the game that several players on the sideline wanted to run the play to avoid a potential challenge. If this is true, your claim that the players didn't think it was close simply isn't true. If you have some quotes from players, please post as I would like to see them.

As for Pereira's ruling, little good it will do us. But, yet again, that's the point. People make mistakes and everyone knows it. We didn't have to give them the chance to make it.

Finally, the explanations appear to have evolved some since Sunday. First, Moats didn't fumble, then he was out-of-bounds, and finally, they thought the Colt player touched it while he was out-of-bounds. For the booth to see all of that suggests they were studying the replay like it was the Zapruder film. Again, I think that makes my point. If their final opinion required going through 3 steps; i.e., (1) yes, Moats fumbled, (2) while he was in bounds, but (3) the ball glanced off the defender's arm while he was out-of-bounds, that is just too damn close to leave to chance.