So what?

[barrett]

Originally Posted by painekiller

But the Pats do this with LBs at TE, and now KC has done this. You have to throw out of this to make it effective.

Barrett it's like you and Roy both are saying, we are to predictable because of our hybrid offense. Gibbs plays are clearly defined and everyone knows the play. Play assignment football and the defense wins.

Use a spread offense to run? Can you do that? The run and shoot was based on the pass setting up the run. The original WCO was the short pass was used to set up the long pass.

I want what you guys are saying, and it's similar to the old Run and Gun offense of Buffalo and Sam Wyche's Bengals. Multiple sets, motion, mismatched LBs trying to cover RBs with WR skills, TE that could run block or split the seem.

Also, I want to add some of the Wildcat sets. .

Kubiak is finally playing to his players strength, not to some ideal he wants.

I totally agree with you. Well almost. I don't think you go wildcat if you can beat a team straight up with your offense. But I don't mind it as an option for when we struggle and need to change the pace.

As for going jumbo, I think it can work and there may be a time for it, but I just think this offense is so good that you are taking a playmaker out no matter who it is.

But bottom line is I think Kubiak knows he has to do this with his current team, but doesn't like it. That's why the foot came off the gas and he went back to what was comfortable in the 4th quarter once we had a lead. If he was coaching the Pats yesterday they would have beaten Tennessee 10-0 instead of 59-0. He needs to view throwing the ball as a giant advantage his team can do in every situation, not as a deal with the devil he has to make this year because we can't run it.

I would be shocked if we don't lose at least one game where we pass for a lead and then try to run it in the 4th and let a team come back to beat us.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by barrett

He needs to view throwing the ball as a giant advantage his team can do in every situation, not as a deal with the devil he has to make this year because we can't run it.

I would be shocked if we don't lose at least one game where we pass for a lead and then try to run it in the 4th and let a team come back to beat us.

I will say, that some kind of balance has to be met. In the Oiler days when Kevin Gilbride was calling the plays, there where times you needed to speed the clock up, and running the ball was that tool. 60% passing still stops the clock way to much, and two missed passes in row, and you are looking at handing the ball back to the other team before the defense has had time to rest. BTW Buddy Ryan tried to teach Kevin that lesson with a right cross, total dysfunction, but that's another story.

I agree use the pass to set up the run. Run from the spread and pass from the I formation at times to keep the defense honest. I also admit our play action pass game is one of the best in the NFL, if only Schaub could throw better on the run. Use screens and dump off to slow the rush down. Never take Andre Johnson out of the game near the goal line, and call that WR screen more often, it doesn't matter if it's to AJ or Slaton.

[Joshua]

Agree 100% with everything Barrett is saying. Probably the most cogent explanation of the reason our offense occasionally struggles. My buddies and I sit in section 611 and can routinely call the play pre-snap simply based on the personnel and formation. I suspect that if we can do it in section 611 after about 4 beers, most D coordinators can do it as well.

Finally, I must say I'm perplexed by Kubes somewhat. He has always preached running the ball, but yet he's never done anything to actually improve our ability to do so. Instead, we continually draft receivers and tight ends. I'm not complaining because it has created a pretty potent passing attack for us. I just find it weird that he places such a premium on being a run-first team, then does nothing to actually acquire the players to do it.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Joshua

Agree 100% with everything Barrett is saying. Probably the most cogent explanation of the reason our offense occasionally struggles. My buddies and I sit in section 611 and can routinely call the play pre-snap simply based on the personnel and formation. I suspect that if we can do it in section 611 after about 4 beers, most D coordinators can do it as well.

Finally, I must say I'm perplexed by Kubes somewhat. He has always preached running the ball, but yet he's never done anything to actually improve our ability to do so. Instead, we continually draft receivers and tight ends. I'm not complaining because it has created a pretty potent passing attack for us. I just find it weird that he places such a premium on being a run-first team, then does nothing to actually acquire the players to do it.

This has been my thought all year. We are doing a good job of picking players individually but we lack a sense of cohesiveness with what we attempt to do on the field and what we attempt to do on the personnel side. We seem to be putting together two different teams at the same time.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by Joshua

Finally, I must say I'm perplexed by Kubes somewhat. He has always preached running the ball, but yet he's never done anything to actually improve our ability to do so. Instead, we continually draft receivers and tight ends. I'm not complaining because it has created a pretty potent passing attack for us. I just find it weird that he places such a premium on being a run-first team, then does nothing to actually acquire the players to do it.

I think it's similar to the D-line. It's not as if they haven't tried, it just hasn't come together the way they planned. Since Kubes has gotten here he has drafted four O-lineman in the 3rd round or higher(one in the first). I consider anything 3rd round or higher to be very valuable, and while these picks were meant to help in pass protection as much as the run game they we're all guys Kubes felt fit with our Zone blocking scheme. He's also made a trade for Veteran Center(with experience in the scheme). He spent a fairly large amount of McNair cash for Ahman Green, and also brought in Chris Brown as a free agent. Of course he also drafted Slaton in the third round. Anthony Hill was also drafted in the fourth primarily as a run blocking TE. He also went out and got the most respected Zone Blocking guru there is out of retirement.

I'll agree that the results haven't been what we want, but I think you can definitely see the effort in that area. Not every problem can be fixed by a first round pick or a top flight free agent.

[chuck]

I have to say that barrett's got it right here, almost down to the syllable. If the Texans effectively abandoned the two-back set and began to run the ball out of a spread formation (in the gun or under center) opposing DCs would have nightmares. Now, in a two-back set the Texans will either run the ball (we all know how that goes) or bootleg. I like Schaub more than most but he is poor to terrible throwing on the run. He is not a guy who can zip the ball all over the field running to his left. Hell, he can't zip the ball anywhere, any time.

With the defense's steady improvement a little self-scouting on the offense could lead to a pretty formidable team, or at the very least a respectable one.

[barrett]

Agreed Chuck. The NFL is a league designed for every team to have 8-8 talent. It doesn't always work that way obviously. A small few are superior. A small few are inferior. And the middle 25 or so are pretty even in talent. This middle wins and loses depending on scheme. Basically can your coach "take his'n and beat your'n, or he could take your'n and beat his'n." It's a very small line between 5-11 and 11-5.

I think if we change the script and stay one back we become nearly impossible to defend. Nobody has secondary depth to deal with Slaton, OD, AJ, Walter, and Anderson/JJ on the field at once. When we put those guys out there we will face a steady diet of dime defenses and deep safeties. Now all of sudden our OL just has to guide an upfield DE out of the play while Slaton runs or catches it in the spot they just vacated. And our OL is good at this because they can move. Duane Brown's block on Slaton's screen was a thing of beauty. So put him in position to do that rather than asking him to push a DE off the ball.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by barrett

Agreed Chuck. The NFL is a league designed for every team to have 8-8 talent. It doesn't always work that way obviously. A small few are superior. A small few are inferior. And the middle 25 or so are pretty even in talent. This middle wins and loses depending on scheme. Basically can your coach "take his'n and beat your'n, or he could take your'n and beat his'n." It's a very small line between 5-11 and 11-5.

I think if we change the script and stay one back we become nearly impossible to defend. Nobody has secondary depth to deal with Slaton, OD, AJ, Walter, and Anderson/JJ on the field at once. When we put those guys out there we will face a steady diet of dime defenses and deep safeties. Now all of sudden our OL just has to guide an upfield DE out of the play while Slaton runs or catches it in the spot they just vacated. And our OL is good at this because they can move. Duane Brown's block on Slaton's screen was a thing of beauty. So put him in position to do that rather than asking him to push a DE off the ball.

If I were the OC my main objective would be to force the defense to play with two LBs - nickel, dime, whatever the package. I would then do everything I could to get the ball to Slaton in space. He is not the fastest guy out there nor is he going to run over anyone, but when he has a little room to work with very seldom does one guy bring him down. If I can get the defense into a two LB set I'll likely end up with one of them covering OD (which is a matchup I like just fine) and I'll also have plenty of space for screens to Slaton. You should also be able to run draw plays out of this formation until the cows come home easily racking up 8 yards a pop.

The team's OL is surprisingly adept at pass protection but what strikes me about them overall is that they are highly athletic. You can forget about their manhandling any DL at the LOS, but if you ask them to block guys on the move I think you'll see much better results.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by barrett

I don't think you go wildcat if you can beat a team straight up with your offense. But I don't mind it as an option for when we struggle and need to change the pace.

The Wildcat could be used to sit on a lead and control clock. One of the problems the Colts have is that their defense is on the field for extended periods of time as teams run the ball and keep Peyton on the sidelines. Then the Colts' offense gets on the field and scores a TD in 75 seconds, causing that Defense to go back on the field before they've had a chance to catch their breath.

The question becomes who runs it? We don't have to great RB's like the Dolphins to make a defense respect the hand off. Would we take Schaub off the field or put him as a WR? Is this something Casey or Daniels could pull off to keep the threat of a pass? I don't know exactly

I'm still wanting to see Dreesen, Daniels, and Casey on the field at the same time for multiple pass plays.