Trade Dunta?

[barrett]

Originally Posted by edo783

According to reports and not denied by Dunta or his agent, we offered him a contract similar to Gamble's, long term with 23 million guaranteed. Even in his BEST form that would probably be more than he is worth, or at the very least at the very top of his market/playing worth. We did that after paying him during the time he was off and after a less than stellar return and yet he didn't want the deal. To think that we some how didn't give a stupendously good offer is ludicrous. IMO, we are lucky he didn't take it as he isn't worth it nor IMO is he worth the 9.9 mill of the franchise. Lots of fans are in love with the hits he does in the run game, but seem to forget that other than his rookie year, he was rather consistently beat in the passing game. Does he seem to bring some fire to the defense, yes at times, but is that worth burying the cap room to pay for what is a mediocre CB at best and perhaps not even mediocre these days.

A few things. (1) Dunta was far better than mediocre in 2007 and before. (2) We had no choice but to pay Dunta while he was hurt. It wasn't like we did it out of the goodness of our heart. (3) He is our best option at CB if healthy and would be one of our 2 best this year even if he doesn't make it all the back.

Make him play for the franchise tag and buy yourself a year in the negotiations to see if he can still play like he did pre-injury. If he doesn't like it he will sit out and not get paid and hurt his own value for other teams.

So I have no problem with Dunta trying to get paid (especially since he is looking at what might be his one big payday in a league heavily slanted to the owners), and I have no problem with the Texans not paying a guy coming off of a serious injury. Lets just let it play out. We haven't even hit training camp yet.

[Bigtinylittle]

Originally Posted by barrett

You act like Dunta is coming off of a career year. He's not. He's coming off of starting the year on the PUP and then finishing it as a part time player who could tackle but couldn't cover.

To this point we have not seen Dunta close to the level he played at in 2007. To me it makes sense that if he wants a long term deal right now under these circumstances, then he is going to have to give a discount for security's sake. Or if he is that confiddent in himself and his health, he can play the year at $10 million and get the big payday next year. Either way he has no right to cash in for anything close to $25 million based on what he showed on the field last year.

So sign the deal for less or bet on yourself and perform your way to the big deal next year. I hope he plays like the Dunta of old and gets every dollar he can. But either way I am glad we're not throwing $25 million at a guy who is almost 2 years away from playing good football.

What you are saying is so clear that for the life of me I can't understand why anyone sees it any other way. Giving a big time contract to a player who may never again be more than average is a huge risk. In a sport without a cap it might be different, but in football every bad contract hurts the team.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by barrett

A few things. (1) Dunta was far better than mediocre in 2007 and before. (2) We had no choice but to pay Dunta while he was hurt. It wasn't like we did it out of the goodness of our heart. (3) He is our best option at CB if healthy and would be one of our 2 best this year even if he doesn't make it all the back.

Make him play for the franchise tag and buy yourself a year in the negotiations to see if he can still play like he did pre-injury. If he doesn't like it he will sit out and not get paid and hurt his own value for other teams.

So I have no problem with Dunta trying to get paid (especially since he is looking at what might be his one big payday in a league heavily slanted to the owners), and I have no problem with the Texans not paying a guy coming off of a serious injury. Lets just let it play out. We haven't even hit training camp yet.

Dunta was better than mediocre in 2007, but his best year by far was his rookie year when he exceeded expectations for a rookie corner. He hasn't played at that same level since then. I blame a lot of it on scheme...but that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't performed as well as I had hoped he had.

I have zero problem with him for trying to maximize his money right now. I think he's taking the negotiations a little too personnel, but I guess it's hard not too sometimes. I'm not a fan of some of the comments he made publicly either. I think it should be handled a different way, but it's his contract not mine. If he were to ask me for my advice I would tell him that he should have taken the 23 Mill deal...if that's what he really got offered. It's entirely possible that the the Texans slipped a big roster bonus on the back end of the contract that they included in the gauranteed money when it "accidentally" got leaked to the media. Pure speculation, but if they did something like that then Dunta is smart enough to know that he would be released before ever seeing that big bonus. He would probably also feel like the Texans were just trying to make him look. You never know.

He's very aware of how fragile an NFL career is. This is probably his one shot at a really big deal. Very few players get a shot at more than 1 big free agent deal. Holdouts happen all the time, we've just had very few players of a high enough caliber for it to be an issue. Every year guys get included on the "potential" free agents list and everyone starts drooling over who they might be able to sign next year. Most of the marquee names end up staying with their team. We don't know what's being said behind closed doors, and that's why I'm just can't get too worked up over this. He's here this year for sure unless something wild happens. Beyond that there's nothing to do but wait and see.

[edo783]

IMO, Dunta WAS a close to elite run stopper, but just slightly above average in pass coverage. The ONLY time he showed well was his rookie year. Last year he was less than average in both realms and was beaten badly in pass coverage. Will he be better this year....most likely, but certainly not at top 5 level as he was NEVER there to start with.

[bckey]

Originally Posted by Bigtinylittle

What you are saying is so clear that for the life of me I can't understand why anyone sees it any other way. Giving a big time contract to a player who may never again be more than average is a huge risk. In a sport without a cap it might be different, but in football every bad contract hurts the team.

And I can't understand why anyone can't see Dunta already turned down a big pay day (23 million guaranteed) with the Texans and doesn't want to play here. Unless you think he deserves more than that I don't see what he can possibly hold out for.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by bckey

And I can't understand why anyone can't see Dunta already turned down a big pay day (23 million guaranteed) with the Texans and doesn't want to play here. Unless you think he deserves more than that I don't see what he can possibly hold out for.

What's your point?

We use the franchise tag to wait and see. What better option do you think we have?

[bckey]

Originally Posted by barrett

What's your point?

We use the franchise tag to wait and see. What better option do you think we have?

I agree. You have to use the franchise tag. My point is some people keep thinking Dunta is waiting for the right offer from the Texans and they will come to an agreement and I'm saying it has come and gone. The Texans aren't going to up their offer of 23 million guaranteed. Letting it play out only favors the Texans. Dunta has already rejected their max offer. If he was smart he would appologize to the f/o and the fans and ask if the deal is still on the table and then sign it. It was ignorant for him to think the Texans would just let him walk regardless if R Smith said it or not. Grow up, shut up and play Dunta. Be thankful you were able to come back from such a devastating injury and still have a chance to get paid. Take the money and quit whining.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by bckey

I agree. You have to use the franchise tag. My point is some people keep thinking Dunta is waiting for the right offer from the Texans and they will come to an agreement and I'm saying it has come and gone. The Texans aren't going to up their offer of 23 million guaranteed. Letting it play out only favors the Texans. Dunta has already rejected their max offer. If he was smart he would appologize to the f/o and the fans and ask if the deal is still on the table and then sign it. It was ignorant for him to think the Texans would just let him walk regardless if R Smith said it or not. Grow up, shut up and play Dunta. Be thankful you were able to come back from such a devastating injury and still have a chance to get paid. Take the money and quit whining.

At this point I am assuming we rent him with the Franchise tag and then move him before the 2010 draft (what we get depends on how he plays). I assume he will show up right before the regular season to avoid missing game checks, and will play hard to improve his value for other teams.

[edo783]

Originally Posted by barrett

At this point I am assuming we rent him with the Franchise tag and then move him before the 2010 draft (what we get depends on how he plays). I assume he will show up right before the regular season to avoid missing game checks, and will play hard to improve his value for other teams.

The issue with letting him come in at the start of the season and not attending TC and be in the pre-season games, is that we have installed a defense that has some new wrinkles to it. All the schemes will be set with the guys who are in camp. He will basically be a guy who doesn't know it and it will take several weeks for him to get up to speed, not to mention in game day condition and have the rapport with his team mates. I doubt he will reach effectiveness (which IMO is with greatly diminished skill set) before week 3, so in essence we are disrupting what we are building for a guy who wont be effective for 20% of the season and very likely wont be here next year for continuity and paying him 9.9 million for it. For some reason, that doesn't seem very sensible to me.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by edo783

The issue with letting him come in at the start of the season and not attending TC and be in the pre-season games, is that we have installed a defense that has some new wrinkles to it. All the schemes will be set with the guys who are in camp. He will basically be a guy who doesn't know it and it will take several weeks for him to get up to speed, not to mention in game day condition and have the rapport with his team mates. I doubt he will reach effectiveness (which IMO is with greatly diminished skill set) before week 3, so in essence we are disrupting what we are building for a guy who wont be effective for 20% of the season and very likely wont be here next year for continuity and paying him 9.9 million for it. For some reason, that doesn't seem very sensible to me.

Even assuming everything goes as bad as you say, tell me what the alternatives at CB are.

Currently on the roster are Jaques Reeves, Fred Bennett (who played worse than the gimpy Dunta of last year), Molden (who never saw the field and was burried behind a terrible group of CBs), and low round rookies with no experience.

Even if Dunta is not the dunta of old, and even if he comes in late and does not play until week 3, he is still one of our two best CBs. This is all that matters. Playing him gives the Texans a better chance to win than not playing him. So use him for what he's worth next year.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by barrett

Currently on the roster are Jaques Reeves, Fred Bennett (who played worse than the gimpy Dunta of last year), Molden (who never saw the field and was burried behind a terrible group of CBs), and low round rookies with no experience.

Don't underestimate the value of Young Gibbs over our old D-Backs coach.

[edo783]

Originally Posted by Roy P

Don't underestimate the value of Young Gibbs over our old D-Backs coach.

Exactly, and Bennett isn't chopped liver and he is a better bet than Dunta to play well particularly in pass coverage, which if I'm not mistaken is the key role for a CB.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by edo783

The ONLY time he showed well was his rookie year.

I think this is completely wrong.

The stats won't show it (they sometimes don't for good corners that are not challenged as much as their teammate on the other side), but imo Robinson was probably having the best year of his career in 2007 before the injury. Everyone remembers how much of an impact he made as a rookie because expectations were low and he was challenged more often (especially initially as a still-useful Aaron Glenn played the other corner), but Robinson was having a Pro Bowl-caliber season in 2007 before he went down. But don't take my word for it - - per this chron article, "Robinson was playing at what Kubiak considered a Pro Bowl level before the injury".

We were lucky to have Fred Bennett step in as a rookie after the injury, but Bennett's rookie status and the lowered fan expectations that come with it might be also contributing to this selective memory loss about Robinson's quality of play two years ago.

All that said, however, it doesn't really make the current situation any clearer. At this point, I'm sorta feeling like what barrett says, that we may be witnessing Robinson's final year as a Texan in 2009 before he moves elsewhere next year. I still have hope though that a compromise is achieved on a new contract within the first week of so of training camp. I think it's entirely possible.

Regardless of whether a new agreement is reached, the window to trade Robinson has most likely passed until next Feb/Mar imo. If the Texans were going to move him in 2009, they probably would have done it before the draft.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by edo783

Exactly, and Bennett isn't chopped liver and he is a better bet than Dunta to play well particularly in pass coverage, which if I'm not mistaken is the key role for a CB.

Bennett was worse than chopped liver last year. He took a GIANT step backwards and was benched even before Dunta came back. He made a small recovery towards the end of the season and attributed it to Dunta's return.

[jppaul]

Originally Posted by barrett

Bennett was worse than chopped liver last year. He took a GIANT step backwards and was benched even before Dunta came back. He made a small recovery towards the end of the season and attributed it to Dunta's return.

I hope that is hyperbole, because that statement, just like your stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB, is a load of crap.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by jppaul

I hope that is hyperbole, because that statement, just like your stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB, is a load of crap.

I never took a stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB. Try to find one. Instead I took a stance that I wouldn't draft a SLB in round 1 because I don't think it's a valued position in the 4-3. Obviously (and luckily for all of us), Rick Smith currently runs the Texans while I sit and watch games on my couch. I still don't like the Cushing pick, but none of that applies to Fred Bennett.

Now do you think Bennett played well last year? Before you answer, remember that he was benched in favor of PETEY FAGGINS.

[jppaul]

Originally Posted by barrett

I never took a stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB. Try to find one. Instead I took a stance that I wouldn't draft a SLB in round 1 because I don't think it's a valued position in the 4-3. Obviously (and luckily for all of us), Rick Smith currently runs the Texans while I sit and watch games on my couch. I still don't like the Cushing pick, but none of that applies to Fred Bennett.

Now do you think Bennett played well last year? Before you answer, remember that he was benched in favor of PETEY FAGGINS.

You are correct I misstated your position on SLB, but as you say it is lucky that professionals run the organization, because Bennett certainly was better than chopped liver, despite the fact that he was benched, and if you had your way he wouldn't be out there.

I think he played well at times, and not so well at times. His performance was not any worse than the rest of our CBs, and the performance of that unit, was largely a function of the lack of pressure.

Even the best CB looks like crap when a QB has all day to throw. Champ Bailey looked like crap last year too.

[Bigtinylittle]

I usually would think it was a mistake to take an SLB in the first, but in this case it makes more sense than usual. Traditional first round picks: LT, QB, WR, DE, CB, and MLB are pretty well represented on the Texans. I think we probably needed a SS and a DT more than an SLB, but SS is not normally a position you go for in the first, and I guess the Texans didn't see a DT they liked. Besides, we've already spent enough first rounders on DTs. The Texans took Cushing over Mathews not because his position is more important, but because they clearly think he's the better player. Time will tell whether he is or not. If both players turn out to be equally good, then Weakside should have been our pick IMO.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by jppaul

You are correct I misstated your position on SLB, but as you say it is lucky that professionals run the organization, because Bennett certainly was better than chopped liver, despite the fact that he was benched, and if you had your way he wouldn't be out there.

I think he played well at times, and not so well at times. His performance was not any worse than the rest of our CBs, and the performance of that unit, was largely a function of the lack of pressure.

Even the best CB looks like crap when a QB has all day to throw. Champ Bailey looked like crap last year too.

Again, I never said Bennett should not be here. I said we need Dunta to play this year because it will help us win games. A response was made that Bennett wasn't chopped liver and we'd be ok without Dunta.

I feel this is false and that Bennett followed up a very good rookie campaign with a terrible second season. He was so bad he was benched in favor of the oft-maligned Petey Faggins (and rightly so). At the end of the year he started to play a little better, but only after Dunta (a fellow gamecock and mentor to Bennett) returned to the field.

I remain hopeful Bennett will become what he showed the potential to be during his rookie season. But at this point I feel it would be foolish to count on Bennett as a starting NFL CB when we have other options (like DR).

As for Cushing (who is not related to this conersation at all). I would not pick a SLB in round 1, but I place great value in what Smith and Kubiak believe. And I can easily withhold my own flawed judgement until I see results on the field to show what kind of pick this was. Especially since I do not follow the draft or College football as deeply as many on this site (and certainly not anything like an NFL GM).

[jppaul]

We'll agree that I hope Bennett is better this year, but I also don't think he was as bad as you think.