Speculative AJ thread

[da Bull]

At this point in the season I don't think there are that many (if any) trading partners. That being said, I think AJ is part of the problem not the solution. No doubt he has one of the best receiver skill sets in the NFL, is quite (most of the time) and is a "team" player. So why is it all or nothing with him? He speaks out last week and yesterday the game plan was geared toward him. He responded very well, catching everything in sight. This worked well for 3 3/4 quarters. Then the Colts either took him away or he didn't get himself open because he wasn't in the same position as earlier, before the air was let out of the balloon.

Sitting in the stands you don't see (nor feel) the game the same as on TV with replay, TEVO and etc. Even when we were ahead and I thought there was no way we could lose I thought that AJ had gotten his point across to Kubiak at the expense of the other receivers (Jacksonville)..........but it was all good. Then the wheels fell off.

At his point in the season I think it would be great to get a good player, draft picks or even trade AJ for a good defensive coordinator. I think AJ needs a change of scenery for his sake and the team's.

[Keith]

Anyone thinking of trading Andre Johnson before the deadline must have the NFL confused with MLB... the salary cap rules make trading Johnson all but impossible right now.

This isn't a case of dumping your star pitcher for a middle infielder and a truckload of minor league prospects. The Texans need to keep attaining more talent, not trade it away for speculative values. And what would be worse would be if Johnson were traded for something other than a series of first rounders. I have ZERO faith - ABSOLUTELY NONE - in our pro scouting department right now.

Andre Johnson will be in Houston for the long haul.

[da Bull]

Originally Posted by Keith

Anyone thinking of trading Andre Johnson before the deadline must have the NFL confused with MLB... the salary cap rules make trading Johnson all but impossible right now.

This isn't a case of dumping your star pitcher for a middle infielder and a truckload of minor league prospects. The Texans need to keep attaining more talent, not trade it away for speculative values. And what would be worse would be if Johnson were traded for something other than a series of first rounders. I have ZERO faith - ABSOLUTELY NONE - in our pro scouting department right now.

Andre Johnson will be in Houston for the long haul.

Keith, pragmatically I agree with you. AJ has always been the "sacred cow" so to speak, the only play who was thought to be "untouchable." I was only pointing out, that that to me, there's some tarnish on his armor and maybe a few "chinks" under the tarnish.

I could see the Texans trading AJ after the season, "to give him a chance to play on a Super Bowl contender" now. There are a few symptoms of "Ahman Green-itis" starting to show up....but like you said, "NO CONFIDENCE IN THE PRO SCOUTING DEPARTMENT". That would really take some "big cojones" on Rick Smith's part and I just don't see it.

Originally Posted by KJ3

so he's a rock to build a foundation upon for 6 years, hits a few games where despite his efforts his play, his teammates and their play, his coaches and their "coaching" everything goes horribly wrong and it's his fault? he's the problem?

calling out andre johnson as the "problem" with this team is just funny.

After 6 years does he elevate the play of others around him? So is he the so called "foundation", maybe and then again maybe not. I think I would prefer a few smaller "rocks" and a sack of cement than one "big rock" and that same sack of cement to build my foundation.

[bono]

perhaps Andre Johnson is/was having the same issue as Peyton Manning. He didn't play too much in the preseason so when the regular season started he had rust. Yesterday, the rust was gone and we had good ol' AJ

[KJ3]

uh...house building analogies aside i think we can agree this would cut our only strength (passing game) in half.

[NBT]

How about we just start closing out teams in the fourth quarter, and stop talking about trading our best player other than Mario.

[painekiller]

I admit yesterday's lose has me dumbfounded. I really have no clue what this ownership/management needs to do.

Our schedule gets easier, well after the suddenly surging Dolphin's, if Kubiak can get this team to believe in themselves, then he gets another year, if he losses the players then he should go. I think he is here next season.

[Nconroe]

I guess the team had perhaps its best game ever other than the last four minutes of QB knucklehead plays. I suspect they will continue to play hard and salvage a reasonable season from the rough start. A few wins will fix lots of this, sure hope they come soon. I sure wouldn't trade a strength at this time. We are building, not rebuilding, very young already.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by Keith

the salary cap rules make trading Johnson all but impossible right now.

How does it work differently during the season as opposed to the offseason?

Like I said, I know cap issues complicate the hypothetical. Really the point I wanted to raise is; are we a better team with AJ and a 2009 first rounder or Lito Shephard and two 2009 first rounders (or 3 2009 first rounders?)

Your initial reaction is that you're a better team with one of the best 3 WR in the league; a guy who's been humble and loyal to a wretched organization. But, there's an argument to be made that our passing offense can suffice without him (e.g. those 7 games without him last season: 236 yds, 317 yds, 294 yds, 259 yds, 290 yds, 176 yds, 181 yds) especially if you get comparable/more talent back in return.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

...are we a better team with AJ and a 2009 first rounder or Lito Shephard and two 2009 first rounders (or 3 2009 first rounders?).

Do you really believe the Eagles are dumb enough to give up Sheppard AND 2 first rounders for AJ? We're talking about one of the better franchises in the league with making personel decisions. They'd laugh at that offer.

This subject is borderline silly. The guy has his best game so far and people want to ship him out. The franchise is obviously lacking top-level talent. We need to keep our quality young players, do better at drafting, sign better FAs and do better at evaluating talent overall (ours and theirs).

[Keith]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

How does it work differently during the season as opposed to the offseason?

Iirc, the unamortized bonus money accelerates immediately regardless of when the trade happens.

I agree with popanot here. A little off-topic, but the player we should have traded was Rosenfels, a QB discarded by a passer-deficient Dolphins team two years ago who suddenly gained some trade value (at least before about 2:45pm yesterday). Anyone wish they had a third rounder for him now?

If we're looking to trade anyone, you start with overpriced vets who might benefit from a new scheme or a change in scenery, guys like Tony Weaver and Morlon Greenwood ...though there is no one interested in picking up their salaries, Weaver especially. There are so few trades of household name players in the NFL for good reason.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by popanot

Do you really believe the Eagles are dumb enough to give up Sheppard AND 2 first rounders for AJ?

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

So, given Andre's recent media comments, would you be OK with shipping him to Philly for either (a) their two 2009 first round draft picks or (b) Lito Sheppard and one of their 2009 first round picks?

...........

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Keith

Iirc, the unamortized bonus money accelerates immediately regardless of when the trade happens.

I agree with popanot here. A little off-topic, but the player we should have traded was Rosenfels, a QB discarded by a passer-deficient Dolphins team two years ago who suddenly gained some trade value (at least before about 2:45pm yesterday). Anyone wish they had a third rounder for him now?

If we're looking to trade anyone, you start with overpriced vets who might benefit from a new scheme or a change in scenery, guys like Tony Weaver and Morlon Greenwood ...though there is no one interested in picking up their salaries, Weaver especially. There are so few trades of household name players in the NFL for good reason.

I dunno, but really bet you wouldn't be saying that if not for the last 3 or 4 minutes of Sundays Texans-Colts game ? 20-20 as they say - perfect hindsight.
And sure we'd like to trade Weaver or Greenwood if there was only takers
on those fat contracts. Like the sub-prime mess (mortgage balances > home market values), compensation package > player market value.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

I dunno, but really bet you wouldn't be saying that if not for the last 3 or 4 minutes of Sundays Texans-Colts game ? 20-20 as they say - perfect hindsight.

haha, so true, but I have, fairly or not, never been a huge fan of Sage's. I wrote a pretty ugly article after the team signed him (and Jameel Cook and Anthony Weaver) saying the 'new' Texans were blowing it in free agency just like the 'old' Texans.

I owned up awhile ago on Sage being more than worth the contract, so my hindsight is certainly clearer there, but I was/is all for trading Sage then and now (knowing of course now is really not likely anyway).

Sage is signed through 2009, so an offseason trade is still a possibility. Regardless, I'm in favor of using a draft pick (no earlier than a second) on a QB next April, and a suitable veteran backup is almost always available - heck, I still think the Texans had one before they let Quinn Gray go. Journeyman backup QBs are a dime a dozen imo, and to get something as meaningful as a third rounder for one just screams value to me.

And sorry for officially derailing this thread.

And nero - i think the length of this thread is more than enough evidence that this is an interesting topic, just one that might be a bit silly given the realities of the NFL's salary cap rules and general lack of blockbuster trades. Regardless, thanks for starting it... more interesting threads here is a good thing.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

...........

Like I said, this topic is silly. Philly would laugh at either one of those offers.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by popanot

Like I said, this topic is silly. Philly would laugh at either one of those offers.

i thought they were pretty much ready to strike this offseason for either sheppard or their 1sts....why would they laugh at andre?

[popanot]

Originally Posted by KJ3

i thought they were pretty much ready to strike this offseason for either sheppard or their 1sts....why would they laugh at andre?

Strike for who? They never made any deal so apparently they feel Sheppard's value is pretty high. I dunno. I'm not saying they'd laugh at AJ, just that they'd laugh if we came to table asking Sheppard + a #1 or their 2 #1's for AJ. I doubt any team would give up that much for AJ. The guy was a top 5 pick, but it's not like he's produced big time numbers for someone to give up that much for him. At this point, and aside from his recent injury, Anqaun Bolden's value is higher than AJ's.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by popanot

Strike for who? They never made any deal so apparently they feel Sheppard's value is pretty high. I dunno. I'm not saying they'd laugh at AJ, just that they'd laugh if we came to table asking Sheppard + a #1 or their 2 #1's for AJ. I doubt any team would give up that much for AJ. The guy was a top 5 pick, but it's not like he's produced big time numbers for someone to give up that much for him. At this point, and aside from his recent injury, Anqaun Bolden's value is higher than AJ's.

they feel sheppard's value is high or that roy williams/chad ocho crazo aren't worth sheppard or their 1sts. figures, because the chad isn't doing much, neither is anyone in la-la-land, michigan. frankly i think andre is better than both of them, and at least andre johnson has produced consistent numbers enough to get him a few probowls from a not very popular team and as a not as popular player (especially the position he plays). logic says if he was on a decent team his numbers would become even more stout.

specifically to a. bolden, the eagles were reported in going after him too if i can remember right. i guess either arizona thought boldin was worth more than any combo of sheppard/2 1st rounders, or the eagles want some kind of jerry rice/god combo at wideout for pennies.

either way, the only people who should be laughing is anyone who knows that if philly wants an elite wideout they're going to have to pony up to the elite price.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by popanot

Like I said, this topic is silly. Philly would laugh at either one of those offers.

I thought it was an interesting topic; that's why I took the time to sit down and type out my thoughts to share. Is it improbable? Sure. But, I think it's interesting nonetheless.

If you feel otherwise, you're more than welcome to ignore it. I don't really see how it's constructive to come in and belittle it like that though.

And, as KJ said, Philly was willing to give up Lito for Roy Williams or Chad Johnson straight up. I don't think it's inconcievable that a greater, younger talent; with no attitude; who's under contract, IIRC, for 6 more years garners an extra first in the deal.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I thought it was an interesting topic; that's why I took the time to sit down and type out my thoughts to share. Is it improbable? Sure. But, I think it's interesting nonetheless.

If you feel otherwise, you're more than welcome to ignore it. I don't really see how it's constructive to come in and belittle it like that though.

And, as KJ said, Philly was willing to give up Lito for Roy Williams or Chad Johnson straight up. I don't think it's inconcievable that a greater, younger talent; with no attitude; who's under contract, IIRC, for 6 more years garners an extra first in the deal.

Sorry, I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I'm saying no one would do that deal and it's crazy thinking someone will, or, to give up on our young talent at this point. Anyway, you're saying that AJ is worth Sheppard and a #1, but RW or CJ is only worth Sheppard? I don't think teams think as highly of AJ as we fans do. The Eagles were holding out for a #1 for Sheppard, so from Philly's perspective, they'd be giving up 2 #1s for AJ. They can find someone better or close to AJ's talent (Bolden, perhaps?) for cheaper than that. I can see Sheppard and a #2 or #3 or something like that, but not Sheppard + a #1.