[Speculation] Sage to the Jets?

[WMH]

Interesting read. The skinny of the article is: the Jets are screwed at QB, this is a weak QB class, the Jets want a vet, the Jets are in cap hell, and Sage is entering the last year of his contract.
It is also interesting how he points out that Rosencopter didn't do the Texans any favors with his play last year, and has hurt his trade value. But as fans, I am sure we already knew that........

Knowing that Schaub has been out some for two straight seasons, would you consider this?

Here's the link:

http://www.examiner.com/x-778-Houston-Texans-Examiner~y2009m2d13-Sage-to-the-Jets

[painekiller]

Interesting read. The skinny of the article is: the Jets are screwed at QB, this is a weak QB class, the Jets want a vet, the Jets are in cap hell, and Sage is entering the last year of his contract.
It is also interesting how he points out that Rosencopter didn't do the Texans any favors with his play last year, and has hurt his trade value. But as fans, I am sure we already knew that........

Knowing that Schaub has been out some for two straight seasons, would you consider this?

Here's the link:

http://www.examiner.com/x-778-Houston-Texans-Examiner~y2009m2d13-Sage-to-the-Jets


5th rounder or better and I have to consider this.

[dalemurphy]

5th rounder or better and I have to consider this.

We'd have to replace him... and, considering that we have thoughts of playoffs this season, we can't replace him with someone who's not ready. I don't see how we can trade Sage and get another backup and be better for it. If someone else is available like that, why wouldn't NYJets just go get him? And, because of Sage's knowledge and experience with our team, he has more value here than anywhere else, IMO.

[nero THE zero]

We'd have to replace him... and, considering that we have thoughts of playoffs this season, we can't replace him with someone who's not ready. I don't see how we can trade Sage and get another backup and be better for it. If someone else is available like that, why wouldn't NYJets just go get him? And, because of Sage's knowledge and experience with our team, he has more value here than anywhere else, IMO.

What makes you confident that Sage could lead us to the playoffs? He's a turnover machine.

Further, if a team can't move its back-up QB for a draft pick then it's not in the position to be talking playoffs.

Fact is, Sage only has one year left on his contract, so if you can get a draft pick for him, you take a draft pick for him. You could replace him with Nall or a veteran like Losman or Boller. But, it's just not economical to hang onto a back-up just in case your starter gets hurt.

[Nconroe]

I guess both and many other QB's were turnover machines against Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Minnesota, Titans this past year.

Just to show how stats can be used, both Sage and Schaub had 10 interceptions, Schaub had 23 sacks and several of those had fumbles, team lost 12 of 28 fumbles. Rosenfelds only had nine sacks which included fumbles.

So, looks like Schaub had more than double losses than Rosenfelds over all, of course he played more, but also against some lesser opponenets. Then Sage rushes for 3.4 yds/att and Schaub for 2.2 per attempt.

And for passing , Rosenfels gets 8.2 per attempt compared to 8.0 per attempt for Schaub. Seems to me Rosenfels is nearly a starter, not really a backup. Perhaps the Rosencopter incident taught him a little on ball control. As some have pointed out, offensive line and recivers effect turnovers as well.

Then there is injuries, how many times has Rosenfels missed a game due to injury, likely many less than Schaub which ought to be worth some skill or luck or smarts or odds points somehow.

So, right now, I'd vote to keep Sage unless it is like a second round pick. And its offseason so gotta discuss something.

[dalemurphy]

What makes you confident that Sage could lead us to the playoffs? He's a turnover machine.

Further, if a team can't move its back-up QB for a draft pick then it's not in the position to be talking playoffs.

Fact is, Sage only has one year left on his contract, so if you can get a draft pick for him, you take a draft pick for him. You could replace him with Nall or a veteran like Losman or Boller. But, it's just not economical to hang onto a back-up just in case your starter gets hurt.

You'd want Criag Nall starting 3-7 games for this team next year? Not me! And, Sage next year is better for this team than Bollers or Losman next year- both of whom will cost more than Sage.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that we are a playoff team with Sage playing in 16 games. I would suggest that this team could play well with Sage having to play four or five games. That's kind of the point. You say it's not economical to pay for a backup? Look at what NE has done... They're going to pay over $14 million to hold on to Cassel because they're afraid Brady won't be ready by week one. Now that's an expensive insurance policy by the best NFL franchise.

[Roy P]

Fact is, Sage only has one year left on his contract, so if you can get a draft pick for him, you take a draft pick for him.

I'd trade Sage and turn around and draft John Parker Wilson to be the backup. Sage isn't going to be here forever, so let's get on with it. If Schaub goes down, we're done anyway.

Sage has one year left on this roster. He thinks he is a starter and could probably do that in the right situation. It's just not going to be in Houston. So, next year we will not have a backup and will be on the market looking for one if we just let Sage walk. Why not already have a guy in place getting groomed for that now?

The choice comes down to which is more important: insurance for Schaub this year or insurance for Schaub for the next 4 years?

[dalemurphy]

I'd trade Sage and turn around and draft John Parker Wilson to be the backup. Sage isn't going to be here forever, so let's get on with it. If Schaub goes down, we're done anyway.

Sage has one year left on this roster. He thinks he is a starter and could probably do that in the right situation. It's just not going to be in Houston. So, next year we will not have a backup and will be on the market looking for one if we just let Sage walk. Why not already have a guy in place getting groomed for that now?

The choice comes down to which is more important: insurance for Schaub this year or insurance for Schaub for the next 4 years?

I don't think it's an "either/or". I wouldn't mind using a middle round pick on a QB and letting him sit this year. I just don't think we need to trade Sage in order to do it.

[HPF Bob]

We passed up our chance to deal him last year for Minnesota's third. I said at the time his trade value would never be higher.

The Jets gave up their 3rd to get Favre so that trade bait is gone. I don't think the Jets will offer a 2nd and a 4th may not be worth giving him up. So if the Jets want him, they are going to have to get creative.

[WMH]

I think it really comes down to whether or not the Texan brass think that "giving up" the couple of games we assume Schaub is going to be out is enough for the possibility of an Adibi type of player, assuming we can get a 4th.

IMO, if we can get someone to split the games Schaub will be out, and we can pick up an Adibi type in the process, why the hell not? This regime has done pretty well with mid round picks, and I say the more the merrier.

[Roy P]

They could give me Dwight Lowery and their 5th round pick.

[Roy P]

I don't think it's an "either/or". I wouldn't mind using a middle round pick on a QB and letting him sit this year. I just don't think we need to trade Sage in order to do it.

With the amount of needs this team has, I do mind using a mid round pick on a QB if it is not an extra pick. When I'm talking about getting a backup, I'm talking about a real QB that I'd feel comfortable with, not another Alex Brink.

[barrett]

What makes you confident that Sage could lead us to the playoffs? He's a turnover machine.

Further, if a team can't move its back-up QB for a draft pick then it's not in the position to be talking playoffs.

Fact is, Sage only has one year left on his contract, so if you can get a draft pick for him, you take a draft pick for him. You could replace him with Nall or a veteran like Losman or Boller. But, it's just not economical to hang onto a back-up just in case your starter gets hurt.

It's plenty economical if he's not getting paid much.

If we got offered the 3rd rounder we turned down last year, I'd do it since he is in the last year of his contract. I doubt it happens, but that is what it would take for me to agree to getting worse next year.

[nero THE zero]

You'd want Criag Nall starting 3-7 games for this team next year? Not me! And, Sage next year is better for this team than Bollers or Losman next year- both of whom will cost more than Sage.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that we are a playoff team with Sage playing in 16 games. I would suggest that this team could play well with Sage having to play four or five games. That's kind of the point. You say it's not economical to pay for a backup? Look at what NE has done... They're going to pay over $14 million to hold on to Cassel because they're afraid Brady won't be ready by week one. Now that's an expensive insurance policy by the best NFL franchise.
1. No I don't want Craig Nall starting 3-7 games. Do you want Sage starting 3-7 games for this team next year?

2. I said it's not economical to hang on to Sage when (a) he will not be with the team after the 2009 season regardless, and (b) we could get a draft pick in return for him. NE's situation only reinforces that; they are in position to trade Cassel for a very high draft pick. We won't get a 1st for Sage, but we need to get something while we can.

I'd trade Sage and turn around and draft John Parker Wilson to be the backup. Sage isn't going to be here forever, so let's get on with it. If Schaub goes down, we're done anyway.

Sage has one year left on this roster. He thinks he is a starter and could probably do that in the right situation. It's just not going to be in Houston. So, next year we will not have a backup and will be on the market looking for one if we just let Sage walk. Why not already have a guy in place getting groomed for that now?

The choice comes down to which is more important: insurance for Schaub this year or insurance for Schaub for the next 4 years?
Exactly.

[cadams]

There are plenty of serviceable backups available right now. I would trade Sage right now if I could without a second thought.

[BigBull]

There are plenty of serviceable backups available right now. I would trade Sage right now if I could without a second thought.
X2
Of course that means no more bad ints from Sage. Oh well I guess I could live even though I would miss them so much.:rolleyes:

[dalemurphy]

X2
Of course that means no more bad ints from Sage. Oh well I guess I could live even though I would miss them so much.:rolleyes:

I would love to see this list on inexpensive, easy-to-get backup QBs that don't throw picks!

[nero THE zero]

I would love to see this list on inexpensive, easy-to-get backup QBs that don't throw picks!

Craig Nall's never thrown an interception.

Seriously though, do you know how ridiculous it sounds to sit here and plead how desperately we need our back-up QB? If you can't pawn your back-up anything for picks than you have no place talking playoffs, much less your back-up QB.

[barrett]

Craig Nall's never thrown an interception.

Seriously though, do you know how ridiculous it sounds to sit here and plead how desperately we need our back-up QB? If you can't pawn your back-up anything for picks than you have no place talking playoffs, much less your back-up QB.

how do you reach this conclusion? How are you equating the ability to trade a backup with being a playoff team? If anything the opposite would be true in that a playoff team is able to trade away draft picks to pick up role players needed in the short term.

This team and this staff are starting to feel pressure to win now. They don't get another free throw away year. So I don't see a deal going down unless it makes us a better team next year and no way does a 5th round pick do that.

[Roy P]

So I don't see a deal going down unless it makes us a better team next year and no way does a 5th round pick do that.

Really?

You don't think we could get a player who contributes in the 5th round? Or are you simply saying that we can't get a 5th round QB who would be as "dependable" as Sage? I think I could find a couple of 5th rounders who might compete for a starting position on this team, how sad is that?

Bear Pascoe
Matt Shaugnessy
Lawrence Sidbury
Corvey Irvin
Dannel Ellerbe
Cedric Peerman
AQ Shipley
CJ Spillman
Andy Kemp

Heck, Marlon Lucky is rated as undrafted and he'd probably add more into the W column than Sage.

[barrett]

Really?

You don't think we could get a player who contributes in the 5th round? Or are you simply saying that we can't get a 5th round QB who would be as "dependable" as Sage? I think I could find a couple of 5th rounders who might compete for a starting position on this team, how sad is that?

Bear Pascoe
Matt Shaugnessy
Lawrence Sidbury
Corvey Irvin
Dannel Ellerbe
Cedric Peerman
AQ Shipley
CJ Spillman
Andy Kemp

Heck, Marlon Lucky is rated as undrafted and he'd probably add more into the W column than Sage.

NFL teams sink thousands of man hours and millions of dollars into scouting and regularly blow 1st round picks, and yet you are confident you can tell which UDFAs will add to the win column? Talk about the definition of Hubris. The best you can do is work hard to research the publicly available internet data and take a guess. I am confident after years of watching your posts that you do indeed do the best anyone could possibly do in the circumstances, but you are still levels below the guys making the actual picks (mostly due to resources and personal access to players). And they blow it all the time. You are pretending if you think you know what 5th rounders make us better next year.

As for Sage. Kubiak is coaching for his job, and our backup QB will be on the field next year if history is an indicator. Sage has shown himself to be a good NFL backup (no more, no less). We would be hard pressed to improve at that position if we dealt him, and we are not going to turn our team around next year for the 5th you guys advocate taking.

If we had a young coach with a longer leash I'd say Sage is gone in the name of young talent. But as it is, I just don't see them pulling the trigger for a low round pick.

[dalemurphy]

Really?

You don't think we could get a player who contributes in the 5th round? Or are you simply saying that we can't get a 5th round QB who would be as "dependable" as Sage? I think I could find a couple of 5th rounders who might compete for a starting position on this team, how sad is that?

Bear Pascoe
Matt Shaugnessy
Lawrence Sidbury
Corvey Irvin
Dannel Ellerbe
Cedric Peerman
AQ Shipley
CJ Spillman
Andy Kemp

Heck, Marlon Lucky is rated as undrafted and he'd probably add more into the W column than Sage.


If there's a guy we like in the 5th round, I'd rather just trade down 4 spots in the 1st and pick up a 3rd and a 5th... or, trade down in the second 3 spots and pick up a 5th. Makes a lot more sense than turning a strength (QB depth) into a weakness for pick #145 in the draft. By the way, how have these draft picks helped the team:

Brandon Harrison
Brandon Frye
Frank Okam... those are our 5th rounders since 2006- I would not trade Sage Rosefels for any of those guys, and I was a huge fan of Brandon Frye going into last season.

[BigBull]

Everyone quit drinking the Sage cool aid and wakeup and smell the coffee. He is average to below average at best. :D

[Keith]

So I don't see a deal going down unless it makes us a better team next year and no way does a 5th round pick do that.

So you're saying Sage makes the Texans better? I have to think about that one myself actually.

Even if he does, it seems a bit presumptuous to think there isn't another UFA who might be just as serviceable if needed in 2009. A few potential UFAs that might work well here as a #2 (in additional to whatever trade compensation the team would get for Rosenfels): J.P. Losman, Patrick Ramsey (who had been pursued (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=nfl&id=2790010) by the Texans once upon a time), J.T. O'Sullivan, Jeff Garcia (also once pursued (http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2007/03/texans_in_pursuit_of_garcia.html) by the Texans), Charlie Frye, Kyle Boller, Byron Leftwich...

I can understand that there might be some unbridled Sage love around here, but I think the "step down" to any of these is a pretty short one, esp if you give that Texans warroom a shot at another draft pick.

I just find it REALLY hard to believe that any team is asking the Texans for Sage just hoping he might come in to compete as a starter, including the Jets. If I were the Jets, I think I would prefer rolling the dice with either Ratliff or Clemens than try to bring in Rosenfels.

[Roy P]

The best you can do is work hard to research the publicly available internet data and take a guess.

2004 - RB Michael Turner
2005 - LB Adam Seward
2006 - DE Mark Anderson
2007 - WR Aundae Allison and LB Tim Shaw
2008 - OT Carl Nicks

Those were my 5th round picks over the last 5 years. They aren't Pro-Bowlers, except for Turner (I got lucky), but they were "My Guys" and I'll stand by them. The names that I threw out today were prospects that NFLDraft scout currently has listed as 5th rounders. Invariably, players that they rank as 3rd-4th round projects end up lasting until the 5th round. Turner was given a 2nd-3rd round grade, Seward 3-4th, Anderson 2-3rd, Allison a 3rd round grade and Shaw was ranked 3rd round. Carl Nicks had a 4th round grade after his off-field incident (he had been a 2nd round guy). Given that history, we could possibly end up with Eric Wood or Cody Brown in the 5th this year.

As for getting another backup - Ramsey would be the 1st guy I'd look at. He knows the playbook and can hold his own. Just like Sage.

I'm all for "just" trading down a couple slots to pick up late picks. Now if we can "just" find a willing trade partner to make that happen.

[dalemurphy]

Everyone quit drinking the Sage cool aid and wakeup and smell the coffee. He is average to below average at best. :D

Okay, then I'd like to see your list of 17 backup QBs who you think are better... Not only that, but guys that would be better for the Texans next year.

I'm the same guy who screamed insanity when people were calling for Sage to start of Schaub after the '07 season. I've got a very good idea who he is. The disagreement isn't about Sage's talent but about the importance of a backup QB. I think they're important. Some of you would trade a proven backup for a 5th round pick without worrying about what you'd replace him with. I find that ludicrous!

[painekiller]

If there's a guy we like in the 5th round, I'd rather just trade down 4 spots in the 1st and pick up a 3rd and a 5th... or, trade down in the second 3 spots and pick up a 5th. Makes a lot more sense than turning a strength (QB depth) into a weakness for pick #145 in the draft. By the way, how have these draft picks helped the team:

Brandon Harrison
Brandon Frye
Frank Okam... those are our 5th rounders since 2006- I would not trade Sage Rosefels for any of those guys, and I was a huge fan of Brandon Frye going into last season.


In this year draft where we are picking, dropping down in the 1st is a smart move, not much difference in player #15 and player #40. But there are a lot of 2nd 3rd round guys. I am almost to the point of thinking about dropping out of this year 1st, and adding as many mid round guys as I can.

[BigBull]

Okay, then I'd like to see your list of 17 backup QBs who you think are better... Not only that, but guys that would be better for the Texans next year.
This is the first 17 off the top of my head. I sure if I looked all 32 teams backups the list would change some.
1. Matt Cassel
2. Matt Leinart
3. Jeff Garcia
4. Derek Anderson
5. Byron Leftwich
6. Patrick Ramsey
7. Chris Simms
8. J.P. Losman
9. Brian Griese
10. Troy Smith
11. Billy Volek
12. Seneca Wallace
13. Kevin Kolb
14. Luke McCown
15. Josh McCown
16. Charlie Whitehurst
17. Brian Brohm

[Joshua]

I tend to agree with Keith that some may be overvaluing Sage's value in comparison with other potential backups. I pulled up Sage's game logs from last year to remind myself of what he did. Here's what he did, he went 2-3 as a starter and also played significant minutes in the Minnesota game (another loss). Why exactly is a guy who went 2-4 for us last year so valuable to the win column? While it is clearly speculation, had we traded Sage for the 3rd rounder and signed Leftwich, I don't think there is any way he would have been worse than 1-5 in Sage's place. At the very least, I think Leftwich would have won the Cleveland game, as we held them to 6 points and Sage didn't do us any favors by throwing 2 picks. Then, there's a very decent chance that Leftwich would have been as good or better.

The bottom line is that Sage didn't help us win last year. I think virtually any backup would have won the Cleveland game. Now, maybe Sage helped us win the Jacksonville game when another backup would not have, but, to me, that one game doesn't warrant turning down a 4th or 5 round pick, if you could get it. (Not to mention that another backup might not have turned into the Rosenchopter).

[barrett]

that's a pathetic list.

outside of Cassell who is no longer a backup and Garcia who hasn't been for years there is not a QB better than Sage on there.

Sage is a turnover machine. He forces throws that his arm don't allow him to get away with. The more he plays, the worse he does. When he starts, teams prepare for Sage he looks bad because they capitalize on his weaknesses. This is why he is a backup. Half of you arguing against him were calling for him to start back during the season. Roy was one of the only voices outside of my own who never trumpeted him over Schaub.

But with that said, Sage moves a team up and down the field as well as any backup QB and better than many starters. The more he plays, the more the returns diminish, but he is a great guy to pull off the bench or to spot start.

Additionally, it is obvious Kubiak likes him. I don't see him surrendering him for just a guy since he is coaching for his job this year.

[Joshua]

FYI, here is a pre-season list of the top backups by Don Banks of SI.com -

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/don_banks/08/26/backups/

The list has some problems (like Cassell being left off because he thought he would get cut after a terrible preseason). However, Sage ranked 3rd (and that's probably about right). Nevertheless, there are several guys at the bottom that I think would perform well enough to warrant moving Sage if you could get something in return. I could get by with Tyler Thigpen, Matt Moore, Byron Leftwich, Ramsey, Boller or Frerotte.

[Joshua]

that's a pathetic list.

outside of Cassell who is no longer a backup and Garcia who hasn't been for years there is not a QB better than Sage on there.

Sage is a turnover machine. He forces throws that his arm don't allow him to get away with. The more he plays, the worse he does. When he starts, teams prepare for Sage he looks bad because they capitalize on his weaknesses. This is why he is a backup. Half of you arguing against him were calling for him to start back during the season. Roy was one of the only voices outside of my own who never trumpeted him over Schaub.

But with that said, Sage moves a team up and down the field as well as any backup QB and better than many starters. The more he plays, the more the returns diminish, but he is a great guy to pull off the bench or to spot start.

Additionally, it is obvious Kubiak likes him. I don't see him surrendering him for just a guy since he is coaching for his job this year.

Don't disagree that Sage is probably one of the better ones, but even so, I think that misses the point a little bit. A number of these guys would probably give you 90% of what Sage does. In my opinion, the opportunity to get another draft pick offsets what little extra value Sage might give you.

I think you're spot on with your analysis of Sage and he can move the ball in spot duty. However, the bottom line is he went 2-4 last year, with 1 win being a Rex Grossman special (a 16-6 win where Sage threw 2 picks). I don't see how anyone can think Sage had any significant impact on us winning games last year. And if he didn't, why is he so valuable?

[popanot]

Garcia would be a huge upgrade to Sage (especially a short-term upgrade), IMO. However, this trade talk is silly. No team in their right mind would give anything for Sage. He was worth something before the start of last season, but his play pretty much wiped out any value he had. Plus, Kubiak seems comfortable with him so he probably wouldn't trade him unless it was an outrageous offer, which is not going to happen.

[dalemurphy]

This is the first 17 off the top of my head. I sure if I looked all 32 teams backups the list would change some.
1. Matt Cassel - he's getting paid $14.5 million this year
2. Matt Leinart - he's getting paid a lot and hasn't proven anything
3. Jeff Garcia - 39 years old but a possibility
4. Derek Anderson-he's getting $7 million per year and would cost a lot in a trade
5. Byron Leftwich - doesn't get rid of the ball
6. Patrick Ramsey - why on earth do you think he's better
7. Chris Simms - I guess it's possible but I wouldn't trust him
8. J.P. Losman - He might fit in our system, acutally
9. Brian Griese - about the same player as Sage but teammates don't like him
10. Troy Smith - huh?
11. Billy Volek - in 2003
12. Seneca Wallace - you're delirious
13. Kevin Kolb - yeah, he looked great coming in for McNabb:rolleyes:
14. Luke McCown - well, he's scheduled to start
15. Josh McCown - he completes almost 1/2 his passes
16. Charlie Whitehurst - that's obnoxious
17. Brian Brohm- based on what evidence?

Clearly you aren't interested in reason. You are just going to throw out a bunch of names and refuse to see any logic.

[dalemurphy]

Don't disagree that Sage is probably one of the better ones, but even so, I think that misses the point a little bit. A number of these guys would probably give you 90% of what Sage does. In my opinion, the opportunity to get another draft pick offsets what little extra value Sage might give you.

I think you're spot on with your analysis of Sage and he can move the ball in spot duty. However, the bottom line is he went 2-4 last year, with 1 win being a Rex Grossman special (a 16-6 win where Sage threw 2 picks). I don't see how anyone can think Sage had any significant impact on us winning games last year. And if he didn't, why is he so valuable?

Sage had a winnng record in 2007. Are you arguing that he's on the downside of his career? The point is that Sage knows the offense, can run it with some efficiency and doesn't really limit what we do when he's in the game. The idea that a team playing for something would trade him away for a late round pick without an answer in place at that position is foolish, especially considering Schaub's inability to play a full season to this point in his career. Everyone loves draft picks. It certainly makes the off-season more exciting, but I don't want to be sitting in the stands watching Craig Nall handoff 45 times while staring at the 5th round pick with my binnoculars sitting on the bench, which is what most rookie 5th round picks do.

[Joshua]

Sage had a winnng record in 2007. Are you arguing that he's on the downside of his career? The point is that Sage knows the offense, can run it with some efficiency and doesn't really limit what we do when he's in the game. The idea that a team playing for something would trade him away for a late round pick without an answer in place at that position is foolish, especially considering Schaub's inability to play a full season to this point in his career. Everyone loves draft picks. It certainly makes the off-season more exciting, but I don't want to be sitting in the stands watching Craig Nall handoff 45 times while staring at the 5th round pick with my binnoculars sitting on the bench, which is what most rookie 5th round picks do.

Although he will be 31 in 1 month, I wouldn't argue he is on the downside of his career. I would argue that 2008 is indicative of his career and that 2007 was the anomaly (at least as to his ability to lead a team to victories). I don't think he's a guy who can routinely win 60-70% of his games. I think he is more like the guy he was this year and realistically can win 40-50% of his games if he gets a couple of good breaks. While that probably puts him in the upper echelon of backups, I don't think it makes him that much better.

As for not having an answer in place, I guess I would disagree that finding a replacement would be that hard and I see no reason why we would end up with a Craig Nall. Every year there are veterans like Mark Brunell, Brad Johnson, Jeff Garcia, etc. who are begging to catch on with teams. Then you've got the Ramseys, Bollers, Leftwichs, and Losmans of the world who are younger but never quite lived up to expectations (at least as starters). I don't think it would be difficult for the Texans to land one of these guys (much like we picked up Quinn Gray last year). Even if Sage were better, I think the difference between Sage and most of these guys is probably only a game or 2 at most.

While draft picks are no guarantee, I would roll the dice with a 5th rounder and some veteran to be named later. While you may be right and we end up with Schaub injured and a terrible QB tanking our season while our draft pick rides the pine, I would rather think that Schaub stays healthy, we grab a cheap backup who can do the job if necessary, and have a draft pick that looks like a steal.

Quite frankly, unless Schaub stays healthy and we get a few more draft picks right, all of this is moot because we probably aren't good enough to win consistently unless both of these things happen.

[cadams]

yeah, all this talk about Nall is meaningless. anyone arguing that trading Sage would mean Nall would be annointed the #2 are not being realistic about the situation. there are a lot of QBs out there who would be just fine as a backup. the texans would sign one of those guys and he would be the #2 unless Nall really showed him something. Here are the UFAs avaibable this offseason who could be had as backups most likely. This list may be a bit off as some of these guys may have already signed, but do you reall think that someone like Simms, Ramsey, or Losman couldn't decent enough as a backup to be able to trade Sage for a draft pick? Also, Garcia isn't on this list because he could end up as a starter, but I would feel just as confident with him as a backup as Sage anyday. also, just noticed that someone already posted this list, but i had already typed this out so i am posting it our of principle.

Chris Simms/Tennessee Titans/UFA
J.P. Losman/Buffalo Bills/UFA
Byron Leftwich/Pittsburgh Steelers/UFA
Rex Grossman/Chicago Bears/UFA
Kyle Boller/Baltimore Ravens/UFA
Luke McCown/Tampa Bay Buccaneers/UFA
Patrick Ramsey/Denver Broncos/UFA
Brooks Bollinger/Dallas Cowboys/UFA
Dan Orlovsky/Detroit Lions/UFA
Charlie Frye/Seattle Seahawks/UFA
Charlie Batch/Pittsburgh Steelers/UFA
Anthony Wright/New York Giants/UFA

[dalemurphy]

yeah, all this talk about Nall is meaningless. anyone arguing that trading Sage would mean Nall would be annointed the #2 are not being realistic about the situation. there are a lot of QBs out there who would be just fine as a backup. the texans would sign one of those guys and he would be the #2 unless Nall really showed him something. Here are the UFAs avaibable this offseason who could be had as backups most likely. This list may be a bit off as some of these guys may have already signed, but do you reall think that someone like Simms, Ramsey, or Losman couldn't decent enough as a backup to be able to trade Sage for a draft pick? Also, Garcia isn't on this list because he could end up as a starter, but I would feel just as confident with him as a backup as Sage anyday. also, just noticed that someone already posted this list, but i had already typed this out so i am posting it our of principle.

Chris Simms/Tennessee Titans/UFA
J.P. Losman/Buffalo Bills/UFA
Byron Leftwich/Pittsburgh Steelers/UFA
Rex Grossman/Chicago Bears/UFA
Kyle Boller/Baltimore Ravens/UFA
Luke McCown/Tampa Bay Buccaneers/UFA
Patrick Ramsey/Denver Broncos/UFA
Brooks Bollinger/Dallas Cowboys/UFA
Dan Orlovsky/Detroit Lions/UFA
Charlie Frye/Seattle Seahawks/UFA
Charlie Batch/Pittsburgh Steelers/UFA
Anthony Wright/New York Giants/UFA

If it is week #14 and the Texans are 8-4 and playing the Indy Colts for the division lead and MSchaub is out two weeks with a cracked rib, I'll take Sage Rosenfels and you can have anybody on that list of yours plus a 5th round pick... Do you really like your situation better than starting Sage Rosenfels. Don't forget, this is Sage's 4th year in this offense, throwing to this group of receivers. That's significant!

[nero THE zero]

If it is week #14 and the Texans are 8-4 and playing the Indy Colts for the division lead and MSchaub is out two weeks with a cracked rib, I'll take Sage Rosenfels and you can have anybody on that list of yours plus a 5th round pick... Do you really like your situation better than starting Sage Rosenfels. Don't forget, this is Sage's 4th year in this offense, throwing to this group of receivers. That's significant!

I can only hope that some other team's GM thinks as highly of Sage as you do.

It's only February and you've already forgetten the biggest meltdown in Texan history at the hands of the Rosencopter.

[Joshua]

If it is week #14 and the Texans are 8-4 and playing the Indy Colts for the division lead and MSchaub is out two weeks with a cracked rib, I'll take Sage Rosenfels and you can have anybody on that list of yours plus a 5th round pick... Do you really like your situation better than starting Sage Rosenfels. Don't forget, this is Sage's 4th year in this offense, throwing to this group of receivers. That's significant!

I vaguely remember Sage playing the Colts this past year. I thought that game ended badly, but I must be mistaken since dale is adamant that he's the guy to take on the Colts next year in week 14.

In all seriousness, my first point would be that your hypothetical is tailormade for your viewpoint. It is also possible that Sage never sees the field and then leaves as a free agent for nothing. But accepting your hypothetical, because Sage is so turnover-prone, I really don't think he gives us that much better chance to win than some of these others. On this we will just have to agree to disagree. However, I think Sage's play last year supports my point. He went 2-4 and his turnovers were killers. I don't think Sage played significantly better than most would have given the same opportunity last year.

[nero THE zero]

I vaguely remember Sage playing the Colts this past year. I thought that game ended badly, but I must be mistaken since dale is adamant that he's the guy to take on the Colts next year in week 14.

In all seriousness, my first point would be that your hypothetical is tailormade for your viewpoint. It is also possible that Sage never sees the field and then leaves as a free agent for nothing. But accepting your hypothetical, because Sage is so turnover-prone, I really don't think he gives us that much better chance to win than some of these others. On this we will just have to agree to disagree. However, I think Sage's play last year supports my point. He went 2-4 and his turnovers were killers. I don't think Sage played significantly better than most would have given the same opportunity last year.

Well said.

I think the main issue of contention here isn't the value of the back-up QB position, as Barrett and Dale maintain, but the value of Sage himself.

[dalemurphy]

I can only hope that some other team's GM thinks as highly of Sage as you do.

It's only February and you've already forgetten the biggest meltdown in Texan history at the hands of the Rosencopter.

I was at the game and it almost killed me. However, I don't grade him by that ending anymore than I do his incredible comeback against Tennessee in 2007. He's a very good backup and he gives us an excellent chance to win if our starter is out. I think that is more important that a 5th round pick.

[cadams]

If it is week #14 and the Texans are 8-4 and playing the Indy Colts for the division lead and MSchaub is out two weeks with a cracked rib, I'll take Sage Rosenfels and you can have anybody on that list of yours plus a 5th round pick... Do you really like your situation better than starting Sage Rosenfels. Don't forget, this is Sage's 4th year in this offense, throwing to this group of receivers. That's significant!

in that scenario i wouldn't have a problem with one of those guys over sage. the fact of the matter is that they will live and die by schaub's health. please don't forget about the rosencopter and the other 3 turnovers he had against indy last year. he does have experience with the receivers, but he has been a backup his whole career for a reason. if you could get a 4th for him jump on it, because i would trade a back up player for a potential started everyday of the week

[jcp]

I was at the game and it almost killed me. However, I don't grade him by that ending anymore than I do his incredible comeback against Tennessee in 2007. He's a very good backup and he gives us an excellent chance to win if our starter is out. I think that is more important that a 5th round pick.

For a fifth I agree, but if we can find a team willing to part with a 3...

[dalemurphy]

For a fifth I agree, but if we can find a team willing to part with a 3...

I would've done the deal for a 2nd last year. I actually got excited about a Sage trade when they picked up the guy from Jacksonville (can't remember his name)... I'd do it for a 3rd this year but only if they had a reasonable plan in place for a backup- not Craig Nall, not a late round rookie.

[barrett]

I'd do it for a 4th. Maybe even an early 5th. I just doubt Kubiak will. We likely won't see a huge short term payoff from a 2nd day pick, and Kubs is coaching for his job next year. Young potential does not do him any good.

Either way I think you'll see another QB in place ahead of time if they have any intention of dealing (like Gray last year).

[Roy P]

I just doubt Kubiak will. We likely won't see a huge short term payoff from a 2nd day pick, and Kubs is coaching for his job next year. Young potential does not do him any good.



That's why we have a GM. In theory, the GM is supposed to make decisions that makes the team better for the long haul. Basically, we are under the impression that Smith works for Kubiak around here. What is the possibility that the GM fires the coach, but we keep the GM?

[Bigtinylittle]

I'd do it for a 4th. Maybe even an early 5th. I just doubt Kubiak will. We likely won't see a huge short term payoff from a 2nd day pick, and Kubs is coaching for his job next year. Young potential does not do him any good.

Either way I think you'll see another QB in place ahead of time if they have any intention of dealing (like Gray last year).

I know there was a rumor last year that Minnesota offered a 3rd for Sage, and it seems like everone in town besides me accepts it as fact. Rumors get started all the time for all sorts of reasons. Sportswriters start them sometimes just to have something to write about (think Richard Justice). Agents start them just to grease the wheels for their clients. I wouldn't even be surprised if owners and GMs start false rumors. Anyway, unless I find out otherwise, I'm going to assume there's a good chance that offer was never actually made.

I personally think that these days Sage's stock has fallen below his real talent level. It's interesting how much difference a year makes. A year ago many fans were saying that we wasted a couple of draft choices and a lot of cap space on Schaub and that Sage could easily handle the starter position. Some of those same people no longer even want him as a BACKUP.

I agree he played about as poor a quarter last year as any I have ever seen. I also think he played three good quarters in that same game. Sage is neither as bad as he looked at times last year or as good as he appeared to be to many fans two years ago. But he's a cheap and fairly reliable backup. Those who cite his win-loss record last year should think about what kind of record they expect from a backup QB who is playing on a team with the league's twenty seventh best defense.

I just don't see him being traded for a low draft choice.

[barrett]

That's why we have a GM. In theory, the GM is supposed to make decisions that makes the team better for the long haul. Basically, we are under the impression that Smith works for Kubiak around here. What is the possibility that the GM fires the coach, but we keep the GM?

you got to let the guy buy his groceries.

It's his sink or swim year, so I bet he doesn't get over ridden on small decisions like that.

[nero THE zero]

10/21/07: L vs. TEN (10-6)
10/28/07: L @ SD (11-5)
11/04/07: W @ OAK (4-12)
12/02/07: L @ TEN (10-6)
12/09/07: W vs. TB (9-7)
12/13/07: W vs. DEN (7-9)
12/23/07: L @ IND (13-3)
12/30/07: W vs. JAC (11-5)

10/05/08: L vs. IND (12-4)
11/02/08: L @ MIN (10-6)
11/09/08: L vs. BAL (11-5)
11/16/08: L @ IND (12-4)
11/23/08: W @ CLE (4-12)
12/01/08: W @ JAC (5-11)

A lot of people place a high value on Sage because of Matt's inability to stay on the field and the perception that Sage plays well when Matt goes down. But, that doesn't really seem to be the case. In games that Sage has played a significant role, the team went 6-8. They went 4-0 against teams with losing records and 2-8 against teams with winning records. That's also 2-8 against playoff teams.

I'm not a huge proponent of placing a W-L value on QBs, but I think this puts some serious perspective on Sage's actual value to the team versus his perceived value.

[barrett]

you explained it perfectly in your post. Every loss is to a 10+ win team. We generally lose to those teams anyways. almost all of the teams he beat are average or bad. Again, generally how we play with Schaub. So by your own stats we don't face a big let down when Sage comes on the field.

I think Sage is nowhere near Schaub as a QB, and I think the more he plays the more his returns diminish because he takes so many chances that the more a team prepares for him the more they will take advantage of him. This is what makes him a bad full-time starter. But as a last minute spot starter, or reliever, there are almost no backups I'd rather have. He will move the ball and give us a chance to win. If you guys think any old scrap heap vet accomplishes the same, we will simply have to disagree. Especially since he is 4 years in the offense.

But the bottom line is if there are so many equal or greater backup QBs in the NFL, then why would any team oblige you in your trade scenario and give up a pick for him? Why not just sign Jeff Garcia or someone else. Your argument is flawed if you say on the one hand we can get a pick for him, and on the other he is instantly replaced with no effort.

[Joshua]

But the bottom line is if there are so many equal or greater backup QBs in the NFL, then why would any team oblige you in your trade scenario and give up a pick for him? Why not just sign Jeff Garcia or someone else. Your argument is flawed if you say on the one hand we can get a pick for him, and on the other he is instantly replaced with no effort.

First, I think you're right that no one will offer much for him. However, to address your point, where I think you somewhat go wrong here is the assumption that both the Texans and the team they are trading with are looking for a backup QB. If that were the case, I agree with your point. However, I think most are operating under the assumption that the team trading for Sage view him as a potential starter. That's where the difference in value comes in.

[barrett]

First, I think you're right that no one will offer much for him. However, to address your point, where I think you somewhat go wrong here is the assumption that both the Texans and the team they are trading with are looking for a backup QB. If that were the case, I agree with your point. However, I think most are operating under the assumption that the team trading for Sage view him as a potential starter. That's where the difference in value comes in.

Further up the page Nero already stated that the argument is about how valuable sage is, not how valuable a backup QB is.

I just don't see any team offering enough to make it worth getting rid of him. I think his value is greater to us than any other team since he has been in our system for 4 years and we often need a backup to come in.

As for other teams, I don't think any are looking at the off-season thinking, "If only we can pry Sage Rosenfels away from the Texans..."

[nero THE zero]

Further up the page Nero already stated that the argument is about how valuable sage is, not how valuable a backup QB is.

I just don't see any team offering enough to make it worth getting rid of him. I think his value is greater to us than any other team since he has been in our system for 4 years and we often need a backup to come in.

As for other teams, I don't think any are looking at the off-season thinking, "If only we can pry Sage Rosenfels away from the Texans..."

There's always teams that will place a different value on a player than you will. There's a balance of need and perceived value that you have to take into account. We have a starting QB and his name is Matt Schaub. We have a back-up QB who has flashed the ability to be a good player. Obviously, after this season, Sage's value will not be nearly as high as it was after the 2007 season. But, that's not to say that there's not a team out there without a starting QB (Jets, Chiefs, Vikings, etc.) that thinks they could take a veteran player who has flashed with other teams into their starting guy.

Remember, my premise isn't necessarily that Sage is a bad player. I think that due to his Thursday night game, his near comeback against the Tacks, and being in the position that affords him to be the most popular guy in town he is . He's simply not untradeable he is overvalued by some. But the job he does as our back-up QB can be done by many other veteran retreads. Do you not think that a Kyle Boller couldn't come in here and throw 3 picks in a loss to double digit wins teams whilst looking like the second coming of Joe Montana against the 4 win Browns?

I don't think that a team would give up a high pick for him. But, if the Jets came calling with a fourth or fifth round pick I think it's a no-brainer. Fact is, what Sage has done for us isn't inrreplacable and if you can get a decent pick for him you take it. Building a good team often entails taking commodities (re: decent back-up players with trade potential) and dealing them.

[jppaul]

I would trade Sage for a 4th but I don't think I would go for a 5th for several reasons. He may be a turnover machine but he is a better backup than most, Schuab is a good QB but is fragile, Sage knows the system and has actually won some games for us, the 5th round has not been all that profitable for us as far as finding diamonds in the rough. For the foregoing I say keep him for another year.

[barrett]

There's always teams that will place a different value on a player than you will. There's a balance of need and perceived value that you have to take into account. We have a starting QB and his name is Matt Schaub. We have a back-up QB who has flashed the ability to be a good player. Obviously, after this season, Sage's value will not be nearly as high as it was after the 2007 season. But, that's not to say that there's not a team out there without a starting QB (Jets, Chiefs, Vikings, etc.) that thinks they could take a veteran player who has flashed with other teams into their starting guy.

Remember, my premise isn't necessarily that Sage is a bad player. I think that due to his Thursday night game, his near comeback against the Tacks, and being in the position that affords him to be the most popular guy in town he is . He's simply not untradeable he is overvalued by some. But the job he does as our back-up QB can be done by many other veteran retreads. Do you not think that a Kyle Boller couldn't come in here and throw 3 picks in a loss to double digit wins teams whilst looking like the second coming of Joe Montana against the 4 win Browns?

I don't think that a team would give up a high pick for him. But, if the Jets came calling with a fourth or fifth round pick I think it's a no-brainer. Fact is, what Sage has done for us isn't inrreplacable and if you can get a decent pick for him you take it. Building a good team often entails taking commodities (re: decent back-up players with trade potential) and dealing them.

No Boller could not come in and do it. He could not win on a winning team. A rookie QB who completed 50% of his passes (Flacco) looked good on a team Boller was terrible with. Troy Smith looked better than Boller when he played. You are dreaming if you think Boller plays anywhere near the level of Sage or any other decent NFL backup.

As for the Jets coming to offer a 4th or a 5th, it will never happen. They only gave up a 4th for Brett Favre. The shine is way off of Sage from where it was in 2007. We'd be luck to get a 6th right now. He is worth more on our team than he is off of it right now.

[nero THE zero]

No Boller could not come in and do it. He could not win on a winning team. A rookie QB who completed 50% of his passes (Flacco) looked good on a team Boller was terrible with. Troy Smith looked better than Boller when he played. You are dreaming if you think Boller plays anywhere near the level of Sage or any other decent NFL backup.

As for the Jets coming to offer a 4th or a 5th, it will never happen. They only gave up a 4th for Brett Favre. The shine is way off of Sage from where it was in 2007. We'd be luck to get a 6th right now. He is worth more on our team than he is off of it right now.

746 1,311 56.9% 45 44
351 562 62.5% 30 29
511 913 56% 35 30
558 941 59.3% 33 34

Markedly different players. Don't know what I was thining.