Official Texans @ Colts Game Thread, 12/22/2011

[HPF Bob]

Anyone who saw Delhomme in his last season in Cleveland knows he's got nothing left in that rag arm so the only plus you'd get from putting him in is experience. And let's not bring up Delhomme's last playoff performance - wasn't it an NFL record seven INTs?

[Big Texas]

I know I might get some flak about the TJ better than Shaub comparison. Let me clarify:

Shaub is a better fit in this system NOW (only because he has been here longer) Knowledge of the system.

What TJ can bring to the table is a strong arm, mobility, and improving accuracy. Let Kubiak continue to work with him and watch this guy turn out great.

Yes he has a tendency to put the ball high, but that can easily be fixed, he's only played in a handful of games.

As I type I realize that it sounds like I am on the TJ bandwagon. However, I would prefer to think of it as the wanting to win, tired of losing, not wanting to get embarrased in the playoffs bandwagon.

[Big Texas]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

Anyone who saw Delhomme in his last season in Cleveland knows he's got nothing left in that rag arm so the only plus you'd get from putting him in is experience. And let's not bring up Delhomme's last playoff performance - wasn't it an NFL record seven INTs?

I agree...I would've preferred Kubiak get TJ some REAL reps...

[JW295]

The NFL screwed the Texans and the Colts with their officiating last night. This game can be a joke at times...

[barrett]

Our offense went from 27.3 ppg with schaub to 17.2 with Yates. Schaub is an NFL starter and Yates is not. There is no comparison and nothing in the skill set to suggest one in the future.

I am fine with talk of replacing schaub because I think he is good not great. But Yates is not that replacement.

[WMH]

Originally Posted by barrett

Our offense went from 27.3 ppg with schaub to 17.2 with Yates. Schaub is an NFL starter and Yates is not. There is no comparison and nothing in the skill set to suggest one in the future.

I am fine with talk of replacing schaub because I think he is good not great. But Yates is not that replacement.

No doubt about that.

Unfortunately, he is at the helm till the final bell rings. Kubiak made that fairly clear in his presser today. If that's the case, he needs to get rid of his checkdownitis, and throw the damn ball down the field. 20 drop backs yesterday (4 sacks). While his yds/completion was in the 8's, the majority of that was due to YAC. Not going to cut it, as evident by last night.

Gents, we've been living off borrowed time with all the starters we have lost, not to mention our DC. The last two weeks are proof that our time is slipping away. Such a shame, but it is what it is. Maybe Wade coming back wiill help return some respectability to the D at least. I have zero confidence our O can hit 20.

[Big Texas]

I think we often make premature decisions when it comes to this team.

I just think that we have not had the chance to see what the kid can truly do.

Let's see RIGHT NOW so we can determine where we go from here. Kubiak needs to open up the play book with Andre Johnson healthy and see if TJ is the way to go.

Right now, I am just saying we have not had much to base anything on.

Throw the ball 30 times next week, if he throws 3 picks, then so be it. If he throws 3 TDs so be it. We just need to see something.

[Big Texas]

Originally Posted by barrett

Our offense went from 27.3 ppg with schaub to 17.2 with Yates. Schaub is an NFL starter and Yates is not. There is no comparison and nothing in the skill set to suggest one in the future.

I am fine with talk of replacing schaub because I think he is good not great. But Yates is not that replacement.

Is that because of Yates' ineptitude or Kubiak's cautious playcalling?

Keep in mind the guy never had any time with the one's or any game experience whatsoever. Not to mention limited training camp. The guy was 3rd on the depth chart.

Let's just see. If he sucks, then I'll be the first one to admit it.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Big Texas

Is that because of Yates' ineptitude or Kubiak's cautious playcalling?
Keep in mind the guy never had any time with the one's or any game experience whatsoever. Not to mention limited training camp. The guy was 3rd on the depth chart.

Let's just see. If he sucks, then I'll be the first one to admit it.

That's because of Yates. I still see a deep man, a middle man, and a short man on every bootleg. Yates just isn't pushing it downfield. That is not a playcalling issue. That is a QBing issue.

And I have squarely in my mind the fact that he is not ready for this. That is the whole problem. He does a few things well and is just not ready in many others. Now that those few things he does well are on tape he is looking worse each week. That is the NFL. Teams look to take away what you do best. A Matt Schaub led offense had every defender reacting and not sure what they wanted to take away first. Every safety and LB took false steps a dozen plus times a game because they could not make up their mind what they were most afraid of. He knew where everyone on the field was and got through the progressions and attacked enough different places that the defense was on its heels.

Yates is clearly not that guy and hasn't had a chance to become that guy. What I don't get is how you take Yates' average physical tools, bad accuracy, and totally lacking preparation (not his fault) and add them up to him being better than Schaub at some point in the unnamed future. There is nothing to indicate that.

As for you being the first to admit it if he stinks, I would disagree. He stinks right now (and has for the vast majority of 4 and a half games) and you don't want to admit it.

[popanot]

TJ's inexperience and ability (or lack thereof) is showing through and definitely a main factor, but the current problems with this offense go way beyond him at this point. The starting WRs on this team right now (not including AJ, of course) would be WR 3 or 4 or non-starters on most teams. You can give all the kudos you want to Walter for his blocking, but his WR skills are average at best and it doesn't help the rookie QB. I'm not even going to bring up JJ because all know what a slug WR he is. But in addition to that, at least in the Colts game, Caldwell and Winston were downright awful and TJ didn't have any time in the pocket when he took and normal 3-5 step drop. Again, it is what it with TJ. He's a rookie for crying out loud so what did people expect? What I'm saying is it's not only him and this team has far deeper issues.

It's hogwash to say the D wasn't a factor in that loss. The Colts drove up and down the field the whole game - they just couldn't put it in the end zone. In addition, the Texans offense had a 5min+ drive before the last Colts drive, so they had plenty of time to catch their breath. They choked it just as much as the offense.

[chuck]

I would like to see TJ play four or five games with AJ (or ten or twelve) before I declare him unable to play in the league. He is not a plus athlete but he's far from laughable. I don't consider him particularly inaccurate. He's a woefully unprepared rookie thrust into a high pressure situation. Quarterback is by far the most difficult position in the NFL, maybe in all sports. Just look around. There are 32 teams and about 8 quarterbacks that look like they have any business being out there at all.

I'm certainly not saying that TJ has been good; he hasn't. But I'm not at all ready to assert that he can't play in the league.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

TJ's inexperience and ability (or lack thereof) is showing through and definitely a main factor, but the current problems with this offense go way beyond him at this point. The starting WRs on this team right now (not including AJ, of course) would be WR 3 or 4 or non-starters on most teams. You can give all the kudos you want to Walter for his blocking, but his WR skills are average at best and it doesn't help the rookie QB. I'm not even going to bring up JJ because all know what a slug WR he is. But in addition to that, at least in the Colts game, Caldwell and Winston were downright awful and TJ didn't have any time in the pocket when he took and normal 3-5 step drop. Again, it is what it with TJ. He's a rookie for crying out loud so what did people expect? What I'm saying is it's not only him and this team has far deeper issues.

It's hogwash to say the D wasn't a factor in that loss. The Colts drove up and down the field the whole game - they just couldn't put it in the end zone. In addition, the Texans offense had a 5min+ drive before the last Colts drive, so they had plenty of time to catch their breath. They choked it just as much as the offense.

We ran for 170+ and gave up 19 points. The Defense also gift wrapped the offense a TD and let them play the entire game with a lead. Yates had more than enough help. The problem was his ONLY 3rd down conversion of the game was in the 4th quarter on a ball thrown 3 feet behind his WR that was then caught off a defenders back. He simply cannot put the ball where he wants to and the Colts made him.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by chuck

I would like to see TJ play four or five games with AJ (or ten or twelve) before I declare him unable to play in the league. He is not a plus athlete but he's far from laughable. I don't consider him particularly inaccurate. He's a woefully unprepared rookie thrust into a high pressure situation. Quarterback is by far the most difficult position in the NFL, maybe in all sports. Just look around. There are 32 teams and about 8 quarterbacks that look like they have any business being out there at all.

I'm certainly not saying that TJ has been good; he hasn't. But I'm not at all ready to assert that he can't play in the league.

I also will not say he cannot play in the NFL. He has had way too much to ovecome for any long term judgement to be made here. But we honestly don't need a long term judgment about the guy. He is not a long term option for us. Schaub is the QB going forward and Yates is not the guy to change that. What we need is a short term answer and we don't have one. We have a guy who is not ready to play QB in the NFL.

I sincerely hope Schaub is replaced (though I bet we "stay the course") but only if it is a chance at a real upgrade. Spend a 1st round pick on a guy you love who has all the tools Schaub doesn't. Don't try to sell a guy who has a chance to become Matt Schaub in 3 years if everything falls just right for him.

[Big Texas]

I understand completely what you are saying Barrett. You are right to be skeptical of TJ. However, I just can't share your sentiment because the guy has not been given a fair shot.

As has been mentioned over and over again, our receiving core sucks. On top of that he has had lttle time to prepare. He was thrown into this job and asked to learn an offense that took Shaub 4 years.

Maybe I just like to look for potential, but I saw some good things from this guy. When he gets the chance he throws a better deep ball than Shaub and he is more athletic than Shaub. He is still learning. Just like Shaub was doing. The only bad thing I have seen from TJ is his tendency to throw the medium pass high at times.

Concerning the playaction pass, most of the time the deep guy (Jacoby) is not even looking for the ball.

Overall, I am not going to say a guy sucks after 4 games, minimal practice reps, and no training camp.

One final note, its not like Shaub has been the most accurate QB. He has been known on multiple occasions to make the dumb ass pass.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Big Texas

I understand completely what you are saying Barrett. You are right to be skeptical of TJ. However, I just can't share your sentiment because the guy has not been given a fair shot.

As has been mentioned over and over again, our receiving core sucks. On top of that he has had lttle time to prepare. He was thrown into this job and asked to learn an offense that took Shaub 4 years.

Maybe I just like to look for potential, but I saw some good things from this guy. When he gets the chance he throws a better deep ball than Shaub and he is more athletic than Shaub. He is still learning. Just like Shaub was doing. The only bad thing I have seen from TJ is his tendency to throw the medium pass high at times.

Concerning the playaction pass, most of the time the deep guy (Jacoby) is not even looking for the ball.

Overall, I am not going to say a guy sucks after 4 games, minimal practice reps, and no training camp.

One final note, its not like Shaub has been the most accurate QB. He has been known on multiple occasions to make the dumb ass pass.

I get what you are saying, I just don't think it is particularly relevant. Yates isn't auditioning for a starting job in the future. I highly doubt he is ever given real consideration for that role. If I am ever wrong I will evaluate him on what he becomes.

But circumstances have given him the job right now and for however long our season lasts. It really doesn't matter what level of preparation he has or what is around him. He has what he has. He can only be evaluated for the job he currently has, and he stinks at that job. No amount of daydreaming over whether he can one day be better than Matt Schaub in the right circumstances changes the fact that he stinks right now. I don't blame him for it at all, and I don't think anyone else in his shoes would be any better, but it is what it is. The end of our football season.

[Nconroe]

It is what it is for sure.

But I choose to hope our season isn't over with one and done in playoffs.


Perhaps the checkdowns are partially due to Yates having a sore shoulder which will get better in next 10 days?

Perhaps getting AJ back will stabalize offense a little.

Perhaps with Wade back Defense can get more turnovers and sacks.

Just hope however we won over Atlanta and Cincinnatti can happen a little more.

Maybe I'm just dreaming, optimistic against the odds.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Nconroe

It is what it is for sure.

But I choose to hope our season isn't over with one and done in playoffs.


Perhaps the checkdowns are partially due to Yates having a sore shoulder which will get better in next 10 days?

Perhaps getting AJ back will stabalize offense a little.

Perhaps with Wade back Defense can get more turnovers and sacks.

Just hope however we won over Atlanta and Cincinnatti can happen a little more.

Maybe I'm just dreaming, optimistic against the odds.

I think we can win a low scoring game and some of the reasons I think that are the ones you mentioned (I think Yates is hurt, I think he is overwhelmed and 10 days might help, AJ is a huge help who makes every QB better, and Wade will be welcomed as a stabilizing factor all-around for what must be a damaged psyche and confidence right now).

I definitely believe we can be in a 1 score game just like Indy, ATL, Cincy because I think our running game and defense will keep us competitive in almost any situation. I'm just not real positive about our ability to win four close ones in a row with a neutered offense.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

We ran for 170+ and gave up 19 points. The Defense also gift wrapped the offense a TD and let them play the entire game with a lead. Yates had more than enough help. The problem was his ONLY 3rd down conversion of the game was in the 4th quarter on a ball thrown 3 feet behind his WR that was then caught off a defenders back. He simply cannot put the ball where he wants to and the Colts made him.

Yes the running game and Watt were off the charts. But IMO, the OL pass protection (and again the right side in particular) was atrocious and made it virtually impossible for Yates to take a normal 3-5 step drop in the pocket. They had no choice but to run the PA rollouts. As for the WRs going deep and giving Yates an option on those plays, again, the replays I saw the WR either never turned around like they were an option or they had a defender right next to them. This all goes back to my comment that our WRs are below average and can't get separation.

As for the D, yes, they got that 1 turnover in the beginning of the game. But other than Watt playing lights-out, they didn't disrupt the Colts offense nor did they stop the Colts when they needed to. With the us in lead, they gave up a game winning TD to a 1 win with barely over 1 minute to play with no timeouts. And that was after a 5 mintue drive by our offense where they had plenty of rest. That's "helping" the team to win? Pretty much sealed the loss from what I saw. The 19 points the Colts scored were just much them stopping themselves (as well as a missed FG) than our D making game winning plays.

Blame it on TJ all you want, and he certainly had a big part in that loss, but not placing some of the blame on the OL, WRs, the D and the coaching staff is being shortsighted and giving them way too much credit.

EDIT: And don't get me wrong... I'm not saying TJ is great and certainly not saying he's better than Schaub or there should be a QB competition next year. He's certainly knocked Lienart out of a job, but no way is he a better option than Schaub. All I'm saying is the whole team for the most part is playing like crap and there's plenty of blame to go around - not only on the QB. Schaub was probably good enough to overcome some of these weak performances, but a backup rookie QB is not and everyone has to step up their game or they won't win another game this season.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

EDIT: And don't get me wrong... I'm not saying TJ is great and certainly not saying he's better than Schaub or there should be a QB competition next year. He's certainly knocked Lienart out of a job, but no way is he a better option than Schaub. All I'm saying is the whole team for the most part is playing like crap and there's plenty of blame to go around - not only on the QB. Schaub was probably good enough to overcome some of these weak performances, but a backup rookie QB is not and everyone has to step up their game or they won't win another game this season.

I agree with all of this. We played well enough to win if we got good QB play. With the QB play we are getting we need to be better than average and cannot give away opportunites anywhere. The team laid it's 2nd consecutive egg and will lay two more if they don't change something.

And I am very grateful Yates has been just good enough to keep me hopeful before the games and bitter afterwards. But I don't think the last two games were better than Leinhart would have done. Yates has started checking the ball down (perhaps as a reaction to the turnovers?). We would have gotten that with more rhythm and less mistakes out of Leinhart.

Either Yates is hurt, or teams are adjusting after getting film on him, or something else. But the same guys who aren't that good when Schaub played (or in the Cincy game), are running downfield routes and Yates isn't throwing it to them anymore. I don't buy he's being told to do that, because his turnover issues did not come on downfield throws. He simply looks indecisive and weaker armed the last two weeks, and it is getting worse not better.