Clowney to IR, Ending His Rookie Season

[WMH]

Originally Posted by Keith

Well, we can trust in the team's experience with microfracture surgeries. It went so great with Brennan Williams. Remember him? The 3rd round pick from 2013 who was cut a year later after he underwent the procedure.

Seriously. Injuries are a fact of life in the NFL, but the medical history on this team has been an issue since the Tony Boselli drama and the days of the expansion draft. Maddening misinformation and an apparent lack of accountability when it comes to the medical side of their business.

Seth Payne said something interesting on the radio today regarding Boselli. Per him, the Texans knew he was damaged goods but was required to spend X in the expansion draft. He also said there was likely a handshake deal with the Hags that they would leave him and Gary Walker as eligible for the draft if they cleared Boselli off the books. Interesting thought......

Heard a lot about the Clowney thing today, and as best I could gather was the Texans gambled as to whether or not he could function with just the scope. Turned out he couldn't and this is where we're at. Supposedly he didn't do any more damage to the knee as a resultof trying.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by WMH

Seth Payne said something interesting on the radio today regarding Boselli. Per him, the Texans knew he was damaged goods but was required to spend X in the expansion draft. He also said there was likely a handshake deal with the Hags that they would leave him and Gary Walker as eligible for the draft if they cleared Boselli off the books. Interesting thought......

Heard a lot about the Clowney thing today, and as best I could gather was the Texans gambled as to whether or not he could function with just the scope. Turned out he couldn't and this is where we're at. Supposedly he didn't do any more damage to the knee as a resultof trying.

Chatty Casserly was totally obvious about the expansion draft. A team could either draft 38 (I think) players or draft to a certain salary figure. The Browns, the year before, went the first way and basically drafted rubbish (with a few minor exceptions) so Casserly decided to draft to the salary cap.

The Jets, Jaguars and Ravens were in "salary cap hell" over the revised cap levels and needed to get some pricey players off their payrolls. So Casserly approached those three teams with deals to expose good players if we would also draft some bad contracts to help the teams out of their cap positions.

So the Jags exposed Gary Walker and Seth Paine if we'd also draft Boselli.
The Jets exposed Aaron Glenn, Marcus Coleman and Ryan Young and the Ravens exposed Jamie Sharper and Jermaine Lewis. There were a couple of other names that escape me but, essentially, there were quid pro quos done with all three teams and it was a brilliant gambit. It set Dom Capers up with a strong veteran defense from the very beginning while he tried to build a young and inexperienced offense.

Unfortunately, Boselli and Young were garbage and Capers forgot to do anything about building an offensive line for David Carr who turned to jello after a few seasons of setting sack records for a QB. Lots of folks forget we were 7-9 just three years into expansion before it all caved in on itself.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

Lots of folks forget we were 7-9 just three years into expansion before it all caved in on itself.

Who cares? Carolina was 7-9 in their first freaking season. Then they went to the conference championship game in their second. Jacksonville was 9-7 in their second year and went to the playoffs four times in their first five seasons. The Texans are a fking joke from the owner on down.

Two other things. The Browns re-entered the league in 1999, not 2001. Also, David Carr sucked not because he had a bad offensive line (which he did). He sucked because he sucked. Suggesting that he would have been successful behind a good line is delusion of the highest order.

[WMH]

Originally Posted by chuck

Who cares? Carolina was 7-9 in their first freaking season. Then they went to the conference championship game in their second. Jacksonville was 9-7 in their second year and went to the playoffs four times in their first five seasons. The Texans are a fking joke from the owner on down.

Two other things. The Browns re-entered the league in 1999, not 2001. Also, David Carr sucked not because he had a bad offensive line (which he did). He sucked because he sucked. Suggesting that he would have been successful behind a good line is delusion of the highest order.

Your hatred of this franchise coupled with the amount of time you spend paying attention to them is truly fascinating.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by chuck

Who cares? Carolina was 7-9 in their first freaking season. Then they went to the conference championship game in their second. Jacksonville was 9-7 in their second year and went to the playoffs four times in their first five seasons. The Texans are a fking joke from the owner on down.

Two other things. The Browns re-entered the league in 1999, not 2001. Also, David Carr sucked not because he had a bad offensive line (which he did). He sucked because he sucked. Suggesting that he would have been successful behind a good line is delusion of the highest order.

You are one self hating masochist for the way you frequent message boards of a team you despise like Houston.

It is funny you say the franchise is a joke from the owner down and as proof you cite how great Carolina was there first two years. You can praise a Capers led team as correctly run (Carolina) while eviscerating the Texans for being Capers run. Anything that fits your narrative of Texans incompetence and makes you feel better about your bitterness.

Let me ask you how many teams have won more playoff games than Houston in the last 5 years? How many have won more division titles. I'd imagine about 1/4 of the league has outdone us over that time period, another 1/4 equals us, and half would love to trade places (actual numbers may vary as I took a wild guess).

But you act like the Texans have personally harmed you and the only defense mechanism you have is to tear them down. It's like you need them to be bad so you can hate them instead of loving them and getting heart broken again. So you spew mindless drivel that ignores reality. You are like a divorcee who has to convince herself her ex-husband was the worst person ever to justify leaving. Except you won't leave them.

I can't call myself your friend Chuck because I only know you from an internet message board, but seriously as an internet friend, leave the Texans. It's not a healthy relationship for you.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by barrett

You are one self hating masochist for the way you frequent message boards of a team you despise like Houston.

It is funny you say the franchise is a joke from the owner down and as proof you cite how great Carolina was there first two years. You can praise a Capers led team as correctly run (Carolina) while eviscerating the Texans for being Capers run. Anything that fits your narrative of Texans incompetence and makes you feel better about your bitterness.

Let me ask you how many teams have won more playoff games than Houston in the last 5 years? How many have won more division titles. I'd imagine about 1/4 of the league has outdone us over that time period, another 1/4 equals us, and half would love to trade places (actual numbers may vary as I took a wild guess).

But you act like the Texans have personally harmed you and the only defense mechanism you have is to tear them down. It's like you need them to be bad so you can hate them instead of loving them and getting heart broken again. So you spew mindless drivel that ignores reality. You are like a divorcee who has to convince herself her ex-husband was the worst person ever to justify leaving. Except you won't leave them.

I can't call myself your friend Chuck because I only know you from an internet message board, but seriously as an internet friend, leave the Texans. It's not a healthy relationship for you.

Maybe the Chuckster is afflicted with some kind of new yet undefined form of cyberspace self-mutilation ? Anyway all of your questions/observations are very fair Barrett, I hope the Chuckster gets back with a sincere reply.

[chuck]

Bob goes bragging that the Texans were 7-9 in year three (Three! The next year they were, guess what? 2-14.) and I point out that two other expansion teams did far better, faster. And so I'm some sort of self-hating lunatic that deals in fantasy.

You necks are out of control.

[HPF Bob]

Chuck, I do believe Carr could have been an above-average NFL quarterback with proper protection and handling. His confidence went to zilch once he could no longer trust the players around him to do their jobs and the fan base turned on him during the 2005 season. I point out 7-9 to say we were a competitive NFL team unlike the meme out there that the Texans were never good until Kubiak/Smith came to town. And the 7-9 was really to say that Casserly's approach to the expansion draft was better than the approach the Browns took. I'd still rather start at square one with Carr than start at square one with Tim Couch.

Personally, I wish you'd address the question raised by Barrett and WMH. Why do you care to follow the Texans when they so disgust you? I remember when you used to brag that you were a season ticket holder and, therefore, had a stake in their performance but I haven't heard that line in years so I suspect that's no longer true, particularly since you used to rail against the fan experience of attending games but no longer do.

I also find it amusing that you are more supportive of the baseball franchise that denuded their roster of talent and fielded a true abomination to the sport solely so they could suck so bad as to get the first overall draft choice three years running then can't even sign their top draft choice. Yeah, the Texans sometimes seem poorly run at times but at least they've sniffed a winning season or two recently and don't completely embarrass themselves as often as the Astros do.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by chuck

Bob goes bragging that the Texans were 7-9 in year three (Three! The next year they were, guess what? 2-14.) and I point out that two other expansion teams did far better, faster. And so I'm some sort of self-hating lunatic that deals in fantasy.

You necks are out of control.

We are all here for you Chuck.

[Keith]

Can't we all agree that the quixotic plight of a Houston pro football fan can lead someone to wayward tendencies? The years of unfulfilled hopes, the mental and physical anguish incurred over decades of abuse, it leaves a scar.

He is chuck. He is you. He is me. He is all of us.

[HPF Bob]

True dat. I remember when the Titans went to the Super Bowl and I complained that it wasn't fair that they got to enjoy the spoils of all our misery. Thanks, Bud. Keep rotting, you old buzzard.

[Nconroe]

It may be some of you just don't follow Chucks humor. just relax.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Keith

Can't we all agree that the quixotic plight of a Houston pro football fan can lead someone to wayward tendencies? The years of unfulfilled hopes, the mental and physical anguish incurred over decades of abuse, it leaves a scar.

He is chuck. He is you. He is me. He is all of us.

I am Chuck.

[Nconroe]

Originally Posted by barrett

I am Chuck.

I bet you don't even look a little bit like Chuck. Mentally, perhaps so.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by Keith

Can't we all agree that the quixotic plight of a Houston pro football fan can lead someone to wayward tendencies? The years of unfulfilled hopes, the mental and physical anguish incurred over decades of abuse, it leaves a scar.

He is chuck. He is you. He is me. He is all of us.

I am chuck. I am also Napoleon Boneparte. I am the walrus, koo koo ka choo.

[chuck]

This is all fairly entertaining, and I have to say that I'm enjoying the board's being more active than it has been in a long while.

Bob, I know you think Carr would have been a good player under different circumstances. I think that is crazy and I think that the facts clearly state otherwise. He didn't lack confidence, he lacked intelligence. And he never studied film. If you're an idiot who never watches tape you are not going to succeed in the NFL as a quarterback. He had several fresh starts in other places and could never get anywhere close to the field, even on quarterback starved teams.

I was born and raised in Houston. I am a fan of Houston pro football. What do you want me to do, change teams mid-life? Have a second team like you do? I'll do neither. But my fandom does not preclude me from making a sober appraisal of the franchise I follow. It sucks. Two playoff wins in twelve years. That is indefensible.

No, I no longer have season tickets. I'm pretty sure I mentioned my letting them go at the time. When it became clear that the owner doesn't care much about winning and the team is more interested in advertising and cheap jingoism than a football experience inside the stadium I realized that it is lunacy for me to travel internationally six times a year or whatever it was simply to watch a team whose leadership is brazenly disrespectful to its customers. And the lock-out was absolutely the last straw.

And I have absolutely no idea why you think I'm an Astros fan. We've talked about this, too. My esteem for Bob McNair is stratospheric compared to what I think about the current and former owners of the Astros, two slimy dickwads who conspired in a most cowardly way to steal fifty years of history from fans like you and me. No sir, I am no longer an Astros fan. I will admit that I do enjoy watching the team struggle and it pleases me that Luhnow is a league-wide pariah. You'll note that several of their recent free agent targets have turned the Astros down in order to sign less lucrative contracts with other clubs. No one with any real options wants to play for this group of frauds and that makes me happy.

On the other hand I want desperately for the Texans to win; I simply recognize that as currently organized they won't.

The truth is I am not nearly as invested in the team as I once was, both literally and otherwise. It's impossible to continue to be as emotionally tied in as I once was when the team underperforms for more than a decade. Also, I am now a part owner of a professional futbol team here and that takes up a great deal of my sports-related emotion. It's a very rewarding experience, actually. Not financially certainly, but in every other way it has been quite something.

[Foo'ball Fool]

Originally Posted by chuck

Who cares? Carolina was 7-9 in their first freaking season. Then they went to the conference championship game in their second. Jacksonville was 9-7 in their second year and went to the playoffs four times in their first five seasons. The Texans are a fking joke from the owner on down.

I know I’m jumping in here late. Comparing the expansion teams of 1995 and 1999 to the Texans is almost comparing apples to oranges. In the ‘95 expansion draft, Carolina picked 35 players, and Jacksonville selected 31. In the ’99 expansion draft, the Browns picked up 37 players. in the 2002 expansion draft, the Texans had a choice of taking up to 30 unprotected players or a specified amount of salary cap. There was also some sort of an agreement with the Jags and Jets that they would not protect certain players if the Texans would select a specific player from their roster. From the Jags, the Texans infamously selected Tony Boselli so they could also get Seth Payne and Gary Walker, helping the defense that first year. Likewise, from the Jets, we got Aaron Glenn and Marcus Coleman after we took Ryan Young. 2 starting CBs and 2 starting D linemen to go with 2 O linemen that were worthless to the Texans. The total? 19 players, 2 of whom never played. The Texans had a decent defense in those first years, but with no Boselli or Young, their O-line was a joke. It’s no wonder Carr got sacked so much. The Texans did not pick up the depth in the expansion draft that the other teams did in their draft.
In the ’95 amateur draft, Carolina began with the following picks: 1-1, 1-32, 2-2 (they were stripped of the 2-31 and 6-36 picks because of the way they hired Dom Capers from Pittsburgh), 3-1, 3-34, 4-2, 4-34, 5-1, 5-37, 6-2, 7-1, and 7-41. Jacksonville began with 1-2, 1-31, 2-1, 2-32, 3-2, 3-33, 4-1, 4-36, 5-2, 5-36, 6-1, 6-37, 7-2, and 7-40. In the ’99 draft, the league cut back on the number of picks to Cleveland. They had 1-1, 2-1, 2-14, 3-1, 3-15, 4-1, 4-15, 5-1, 5-15, 6-1, 6-15, 7-1, 7-15, and 7-47. So, Carolina and Jacksonville each started with 14 picks, 2 per round. In 1995. Cleveland also had 14 picks, one in the 1st, 3 in the 7th, and 2 in the others. Houston was set up like Cleveland, except they picked 18th for the second picks in each round, while Cleveland had picked 14th in the 2nd round and 15th after that.
To sum this up, Carolina had 47 drafted players in their 1st camp from their draft. Jacksonville had 45. Cleveland had 51 players, since they selected so many in the expansion draft. Houston’s drafted players? In reality 17 + 14 in the draft makes 31. Houston began with a lot smaller core of talent than the other teams did. So, there were a great number of street free agents in those first few years. So, you really can't compare the expansion Texans to the others. It just won’t fly. Sorry for being long-winded.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by chuck

This is all fairly entertaining, and I have to say that I'm enjoying the board's being more active than it has been in a long while.

Bob, I know you think Carr would have been a good player under different circumstances. I think that is crazy and I think that the facts clearly state otherwise. He didn't lack confidence, he lacked intelligence. And he never studied film. If you're an idiot who never watches tape you are not going to succeed in the NFL as a quarterback. He had several fresh starts in other places and could never get anywhere close to the field, even on quarterback starved teams.

I was born and raised in Houston. I am a fan of Houston pro football. What do you want me to do, change teams mid-life? Have a second team like you do? I'll do neither. But my fandom does not preclude me from making a sober appraisal of the franchise I follow. It sucks. Two playoff wins in twelve years. That is indefensible.

No, I no longer have season tickets. I'm pretty sure I mentioned my letting them go at the time. When it became clear that the owner doesn't care much about winning and the team is more interested in advertising and cheap jingoism than a football experience inside the stadium I realized that it is lunacy for me to travel internationally six times a year or whatever it was simply to watch a team whose leadership is brazenly disrespectful to its customers. And the lock-out was absolutely the last straw.

And I have absolutely no idea why you think I'm an Astros fan. We've talked about this, too. My esteem for Bob McNair is stratospheric compared to what I think about the current and former owners of the Astros, two slimy dickwads who conspired in a most cowardly way to steal fifty years of history from fans like you and me. No sir, I am no longer an Astros fan. I will admit that I do enjoy watching the team struggle and it pleases me that Luhnow is a league-wide pariah. You'll note that several of their recent free agent targets have turned the Astros down in order to sign less lucrative contracts with other clubs. No one with any real options wants to play for this group of frauds and that makes me happy.

On the other hand I want desperately for the Texans to win; I simply recognize that as currently organized they won't.

The truth is I am not nearly as invested in the team as I once was, both literally and otherwise. It's impossible to continue to be as emotionally tied in as I once was when the team underperforms for more than a decade. Also, I am now a part owner of a professional futbol team here and that takes up a great deal of my sports-related emotion. It's a very rewarding experience, actually. Not financially certainly, but in every other way it has been quite something.

Looking back, I always felt Carr needed a mentor, someone to guide him right from the get-go. Show him how to be a pro in the NFL. Show him in the film room what he needed to do to become a better - someone that knew what they were doing. I've forgotten who his QB coach was at the time but whoever he was, he did a terrible job with Carr. Instead, he was allowed to be the Golden Boy, the face and savior of the new franchise and along the way, he picked up bad habits that were never corrected.

Re: season tickets, I read a lot of Texans stuff on the internet. One thing I've noticed is that the fans who regard their "investment" as disposable income are a lot more at peace with what transpires on Sundays. Especially, when things aren't going well with the team......

Interesting that the joke-of-a-franchise Texans have your favor and the joke-of-a-franchise Astros do not.....

[HPF Bob]

Chuck, I apologize if you're not the "Chuck" that posts at Orange Whoopass and its predecessors. He seems to have the same general attitude about many things as you.

I fully understand the "Houston or die" fandom and having to confront whether you can still support a team that's not heading in the direction you desire. I had to deal with it during the short-lived McDaniels era in Denver as well as the continuing Astros debacle.

I will disagree with the idea that two playoff wins in 12 years is "indefensible". I believe that is more than the Cowboys or Bengals over that time. Certainly more than the Lions, the Chiefs, the Browns or the Dolphins. Assuming they win one more game, the Texans will have just two losing seasons in their past eight. That sounds like they are giving their fans a legit franchise to watch.

I, too, have disagreements with the way some things are handled but, at the bottom, I believe the Texans do what they do because they want to be NFL champions. I believe the Astros do what they do to prove their pet theories and any championships they may accrue are just a byproduct.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

Chuck, I apologize if you're not the "Chuck" that posts at Orange Whoopass and its predecessors. He seems to have the same general attitude about many things as you.

I fully understand the "Houston or die" fandom and having to confront whether you can still support a team that's not heading in the direction you desire. I had to deal with it during the short-lived McDaniels era in Denver as well as the continuing Astros debacle.

I will disagree with the idea that two playoff wins in 12 years is "indefensible". I believe that is more than the Cowboys or Bengals over that time. Certainly more than the Lions, the Chiefs, the Browns or the Dolphins. Assuming they win one more game, the Texans will have just two losing seasons in their past eight. That sounds like they are giving their fans a legit franchise to watch.

I, too, have disagreements with the way some things are handled but, at the bottom, I believe the Texans do what they do because they want to be NFL champions. I believe the Astros do what they do to prove their pet theories and any championships they may accrue are just a byproduct.

I think being respected in the Billionaire owner's club and in NFL circles comes first for McNair and championships 2nd. I think if you offered Bob a choice of the following;;

1 superbowl title in the next 2 decades with a 5-6 year stretch of losing that alienated fans somewhere over that time period, plus a scandal of some kind thrown in.

Or another 2 decades just like our last 8 years (6 non-losing seasons like you pointed out, and 2 division titles and playoff wins), general respectability, largely contented fan base, other owners back slapping him, etc...

I think Bob takes door number 2 every time.