Official Texans vs. Raiders Game Thread, 11/17/2013

[chuck]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

No, Chuck. That sentence describes the Houston Astros and there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans.

You are so completely, hilariously wrong about so much that in some ways I would be disappointed if you weren't completely, hilariously wrong about this, too. Happily, I am not disappointed.

And I'll tell you honestly that your complete misreading of the respective state of each franchise really does surprise me because I know you at one time spent a great deal of time with the Astros and I assumed you still do.

The Astros have had an historically bad three year stretch. We all know that. But if you talk with anyone in professional baseball the unanimous consensus is that the team is growing from the bottom up in an impressively powerful way, and no one expects the team to be the league doormat for much longer. Me, I don't give a fck because I can't and won't root for an American League team. I do watch the Astros closely, though, and I follow professional baseball closely. The Astros have been terrible, yes, but they are far from a league-wide joke. Most baseball people are in near awe of what Luhnow has done building up the farm and stockpiling promising arms. How do you not know this? (I fully expect Crane to pull the rug out in three or four years but that's a conversation for another day.)

The Texans, on the other hand, have an owner that no one in football respects, have a head coach that will never be a head coach for another team and a general manager who will never again be a general manager. They can rely on AJ, Watt, Duane Brown. And Myers. Let's make it an even four. Every other player either sucks or won't be back or both or is an injury liability. That's it, dude. Do you want to look at who started for the Texans today and tell me that a quick turnaround is in the works? They could hire Vince Lombardi and this team would suck for another three years.

They are two and eight. This is a two and eight team. They are a disgrace and a joke. Snakebit my ass.

You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by chuck

They are two and eight. This is a two and eight team. They are a disgrace and a joke. Snakebit my ass.

You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.

Dang, the Chuckster has a serious hard-on for the Texans. Who took your Christmas candy from you last year over there on Kirby Drive boy ?
Now I don't know that much about baseball, but I do understand that the Astros are on the rise, but when an organization is rock-bottom that's usually the only way to go. Haven't they had like 2 consecutive 100-loss seasons which is pretty much in the rock-bottom category while the Texans have had 2 consecutive PO seasons ? Now this season is surprising and certainly very disappointing and not just because of the miserable 2-8 record, but it's far too soon to know if this will be a new path for even the near term or just a single-season aberration.

[nunusguy]

Running back Ben Tate had some tough words for Texans fans.

They booed so loudly during the 28-23 loss at Reliant Stadium that the Texans had to go to a silent-count on offense (something usually reserved for road games).

“These fans here in Houston are so up and down and so wishy-washy,” Tate said. “I’m just shocked at that because this organization has come a long way.

“I just feel like if you’re a true fan, you stick with the team through the tough times and we’re going through a tough time right now.”

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans...f-texans-fans/
*****
Ben Tate is an Auburn guy, so he knows something about what "real" fans are, and I'm inclined to agree with him. I know one thing, when I've gone to games at Reliant I'm always surprised to see so many people wait until after KO to come into the stadium, and then wonder what they are thinking when they yell their azzes off when the Texans are on offense just as they do when the D is on the field. Many local fans are certainly uninformed, atleast the ones who attend the games and that's what Tate was talking about. And many cheered loudly when Matt Schaub was hurt a couple weeks ago, well that was pathetic because Schaub has been responsible for some big wins at Reliant in recent years and also along with his wife has been a solid citizen with his time and money re charitable giving here in Houston.

[barrett]

It's tough for the general fan base to be well informed when you don't have a half decent reporter covering the team. Nothing gets written but puff pieces for 90% of the year, even at 2-8.

As for real fans not booing, I see both sides of that one.

But maybe Tate should be more focused on holding onto the ball and less focused on fan response.

[popanot]

What McNair does this offseason will tell me all I need to know about this franchise. If McNair can't recognize the fact Kubiak has lost the team and keeps him and his boy-toy around for another year, it will show me he's perfectly fine with mediocrity and his team will NEVER win big.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by popanot

What McNair does this offseason will tell me all I need to know about this franchise. If McNair can't recognize the fact Kubiak has lost the team and keeps him and his boy-toy around for another year, it will show me he's perfectly fine with mediocrity and his team will NEVER win big.

This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.

[HPF Bob]

If the Astros were an NFL team, they'd be the Jacksonville Jaguars, complete with a midget as their best player. The Jags throw tarps over half their stadium rather than try to attract fans with better talent. The Astros have taken to lying about attendance figures to pretend they have fans.

Mike Brown's cheapness forced the NFL to put in a salary floor. Jim Crane's may force MLB to do the same thing.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

Jim Crane's may force MLB to do the same thing.

That would be fine with me. It's obvious he's cheapskating it because he has an enormous amount of debt and is happy to rake in the money that the league gives him while fielding a team with a $20MM payroll. This will become clear to most people when he starts to let good, arb-eligible players go via trade. We're a couple of years away from that yet though.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.

And therein lies the problem. If McNair sticks with the current regime for another season it will prove to me he's more committed to taking care of his good 'ol boys rather than being committed to doing what's right for the franchise and reaching the pinnacle. In addition, it will show me he lacks the vision to see the cesspool his team has become and what needs to be done to move the franchise forward. I can see it now because it's so typical of what he's let happen to date... He'll keep Kubiak and crew another year, they'll get back to roughly .500 football (how can they be any worse than this year) and Billy Bob will proclaim to the world all is good in Texans Nation and we're making strides to improvement. Frickin gag me!!! McNair's the only one on the entire planet that thinks he has the second coming of Bill Walsh at HC.

I don't know what's worse, having a meddlesome owner or a wallflower owner. I'm starting to think the latter is worse. Bud Adams never won the big one and for the most part I couldn't stand him, but at least I could tell he was trying and passionate about his team. Hard to say McNair is passionate about anything right now other than his good 'ol boy network, back-slapping the other owners, and making tons of money.

[chuck]

McNair called a meeting of the minority owners and apparently the consensus is that Kubiak has to go.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.

He did not clean house in 2005. He almost cleaned house. But he made sure the worst special teams coach in the league survived a regime change for purely personal reasons. That is bad business no matter what business you are in.

[sinnister]

Kubiak has to go, as well as Schaub and Marciano. Since I said Schaub, Brice MCCain needs to go also. I am starting to watch college games just for the purpose of next years pick, and I hope it very high......And I am praying they don't blow it.

[Nconroe]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.

I'm hoping Kubiak and Schaub, and both are nice guys, are both gone at the end of this 2013 season , early January, 2014 would be ok. sooner, not latter. And best of luck to them in future.

I think Keenum could develop further, as to handle blitzes better, quicker releases at times, given time seems some good potential there.

Turnovers and a few plays are what have done in Texans this year, repeatedly in these close losses.

Tate still has four cracked ribs, bound to hurt sometimes, likely he should be resting.

It was nice to see a good FG and a ST return for touchdown for a nice change in those areas.

Somehow Texans are 101/2 point favorites over Jags this coming weekend.

[Warren]

Tate said. “I’m just shocked at that because this organization has come a long way."

Really? At 2-8? With an 8-game losing streak, something even the horrific 2005 team managed to avoid? If anything, this organization has come full circle.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by chuck

The Texans, on the other hand, have an owner that no one in football respects, have a head coach that will never be a head coach for another team and a general manager who will never again be a general manager.

I would wager money Rick Smith gets another GM job if the Texans let him go. And McNair is deeply respected around the league for having a relatively clean organization with few missteps.

As for Kubiak, that mini-stroke may cost him another HC gig were he to get fired. But I'd almost guarantee he'll be an OC somewhere.

You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.

One team can't even negotiate a ****************ing tv deal. I got to see more Texans *exhibition games* in Austin this summer than I did Astros games except when they were on the Rangers network.

One team had the league's worst hitting and the league's worst pitching so they retained the hitting coach for another year and kicked the pitching coach upstairs to assist the GM. (You can draw your Marciano analogies here).

True, they had no failures this year of the Ed Reed variety but only because they were too ****************ing cheap to sign anyone who could fail like that. Instead, they gave us cheap failures like Carlos Pena, Philip Humber and Rick Ankiel. They are currently on a 15-game losing streak they have to wait until next April to snap.

Good minor leaguers doesn't mean shit until they are winning in the major leagues. I'm sure the Texans have high praise for their practice squad players too.

No doubt the Texans are a disappointment and some of their wounds (play-calling, Marciano) are self-inflicted. But they are a disappointment because we thought they had the talent in place to win something and because they had made the playoffs two straight years. The Astros may have the talent to win in the Pacific Coast League but they are a hideous joke at the major league level. They will ascend only because enough #1 overall draft choices will eventually make them no longer a laughingstock but I've seen nothing yet to make me think they can ever reach the playoffs, much less win them.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

I would wager money Rick Smith gets another GM job if the Texans let him go. And McNair is deeply respected around the league for having a relatively clean organization with few missteps.

As for Kubiak, that mini-stroke may cost him another HC gig were he to get fired. But I'd almost guarantee he'll be an OC somewhere.



One team can't even negotiate a ****************ing tv deal. I got to see more Texans *exhibition games* in Austin this summer than I did Astros games except when they were on the Rangers network.

One team had the league's worst hitting and the league's worst pitching so they retained the hitting coach for another year and kicked the pitching coach upstairs to assist the GM. (You can draw your Marciano analogies here).

True, they had no failures this year of the Ed Reed variety but only because they were too ****************ing cheap to sign anyone who could fail like that. Instead, they gave us cheap failures like Carlos Pena, Philip Humber and Rick Ankiel. They are currently on a 15-game losing streak they have to wait until next April to snap.

Good minor leaguers doesn't mean shit until they are winning in the major leagues. I'm sure the Texans have high praise for their practice squad players too.

No doubt the Texans are a disappointment and some of their wounds (play-calling, Marciano) are self-inflicted. But they are a disappointment because we thought they had the talent in place to win something and because they had made the playoffs two straight years. The Astros may have the talent to win in the Pacific Coast League but they are a hideous joke at the major league level. They will ascend only because enough #1 overall draft choices will eventually make them no longer a laughingstock but I've seen nothing yet to make me think they can ever reach the playoffs, much less win them.

As a fellow owner I would LOVE Bob McNair.

Clean organization that will never give the league a black eye...check.
Increases my share of the revenue pie...check.
Hosts great superbowls withprivate airfields for owners jets...check.
Never a threat to stop a real franchise from winning a superbowl...check.

If I was an NFL owner I'd love to have 31 Bob McNairs to compete against and would "respect" the heck out of all of them. I mean the Harlem Globetrotters respect the Generals for their effort and clean franchise.

[chuck]

I'll admit to being inconsistent in that I place an enormous amount of blame on McNair for the state of the organization while ignoring Crane's many successive missteps in my evaluation of the Astros.

But the organization of football and baseball teams is totally different. You know this as well as I do so I'm not really sure why you're arguing with me. You're free to think that the Texans are closer to being good than I do and my general pessimism is well known around here so maybe you're right. I would love the team to go 14-2 next year under a new coach. I don't see it but who knows. Yeah, I know, the Chiefs. Look, the Chiefs sent more guys to the Pro Bowl last year than the number of games they won. They had plenty of talent. I don't see the Texans in the same place right now ready for an immediate turnaround.

But again, if you were to get a consensus of football people and baseball people on the state of each respective organization I am quite sure that the football people would stress the concerning problems that the Texans have and the baseball people would stress the impressive strengthening of the Astros' farm and the quality of the FO. I don't mean to make light of your situation but no one cares that you can't watch the games in Austin. That has no meaning to anyone evaluating the possibility of future success, not at this point. If Crane spends three years in television wilderness (and he might) that will surely begin to impact the team's ability to sign free agents but I don't see him signing any real free agent in the next decade tv deal or no.

They may lose 100 games again next year but the Astros have a solid plan that has the respect of everyone watching them. The Texans are completely and listlessly adrift. That could not be more plain.

Baseball's better on the radio anyway.