Official Texans vs. Saints Game Thread, 8/22/2009

[HPF Bob]

What this told me is how badly the Chiefs must suck. Our defense really got chewed up. Back to the drawing board.

[Big Texas]

here was a passing team that completely abandoned their normal style of play and ran all over us with a sub par running back. I don't care how good a game Bell had, he is not as good as the game he had on us. I know right now that might seem like the words of a sore loser, but I will just sit back and let time tell on that one.

With that said, I do believe that our Dline got some good penetration, however Peyton counter planned for our game plan. It seemed as if he knew we would be aggressive at getting to the QB, so he just punched it right up the gut on us. The intriguing thing to me is that we never counter his counter. We just continued to get punched in kidney.

P.S. There were a few of those running plays where Okam got walked backwards several yards. Hard to believe for a guy his size. The only thing I could think is that he had become worried about the RB getting past him that he started to second guess his bull rush.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by barrett

Almost everyone on this board wanted the DL playing forward, penetrating, and aggressive. They did this last night. The problem is that when you shoot gaps you are shooting yourself out of the play as often as not. That's why not many DL play to shoot the gaps. At least not with both DTs. Yet everyone was excited that Bush promised this style. And from what I saw last night, the DL was in the backfield often against both the run and the pass.

The problem is that the LBs MUST play downhill against the run if your DL is going to penetrate. Specifically they must fill the gaps. They must take on and shed blocks from the FB or pulling OL. Our LBs are not made for this. They are all small and they all struggle when blocked by OL. Especially Demeco. He will struggle if we play like this. He is too small to deal with OL.

I think that sums it up pretty well. How big a miss is Okoye now, especially when you could have had Willis. I liked Okoye in college and I thought he would be better then he is playing so far, but I had Willis higher.

[nunusguy]

I remember Rick Smith saying how happy, even surprised he was that Okoye was still on the Board when the Texans were picking in the #10 slot
back in 2007, and his remarks seemed genuinely sincere. And I dunno, but there was very strong rumors of opportunites to trade the pick.
I doubt that Smith would have drafted Willis even if Okoye wasn't available, given that he played the same position that DeMeco, who had just been named NFL Defensive rookie of the year in 2006, played though with benefit of hindsight today we know we'd much rather have DeMeco at WIL and Willis at MIKE than what we have now, DeMeco & Okoye. Other interesting picks back then would have been Marshawn Lynch & Darrel Revis, just to name a couple.
But along with taking Jacobey with the next pick, that first Draft for Rick Smith is lookin more & more like a real stinker.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

Other interesting picks back then would have been Marshawn Lynch & Darrel Revis, just to name a couple.
But along with taking Jacobey with the next pick, that first Draft for Rick Smith is lookin more & more like a real stinker.

Lynch would not have passed McNair's smell test, he has off the field issue and will miss 3 games this season due to continued off the field issues.

Revis would have been a solid pick and really helped this team.

I will throw in Adam Carriker would have had a year under Weaver and then been the bookend to Mario.

As for the Jocabey pick I thought he was a round or two early, but not many guys from that drafts 3rd round turn out to be very good.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

I remember Rick Smith saying how happy, even surprised he was that Okoye was still on the Board when the Texans were picking in the #10 slot
back in 2007, and his remarks seemed genuinely sincere. And I dunno, but there was very strong rumors of opportunites to trade the pick.
I doubt that Smith would have drafted Willis even if Okoye wasn't available, given that he played the same position that DeMeco, who had just been named NFL Defensive rookie of the year in 2006, played though with benefit of hindsight today we know we'd much rather have DeMeco at WIL and Willis at MIKE than what we have now, DeMeco & Okoye. Other interesting picks back then would have been Marshawn Lynch & Darrel Revis, just to name a couple.
But along with taking Jacobey with the next pick, that first Draft for Rick Smith is lookin more & more like a real stinker.

I don't know that Demeco would make a great WLB even if it was once considered his position. He is best when chasing plays from the middle. He makes lots of tackles and has great leadership skills. All of this makes him good at MLB (and great when protected by his DTs).

If you put him at WLB his lack of speed hurts him. Additionally he is average at best in pass coverage. I think he is in the perfect spot right now. I am not sure another LB would have had a great impact for us.

Now a CB like Revis could have solved some problems. But I am still willing to wait and see what Okoye becomes. He got penetration and rushed the passer well the other night. I just think he will always struggle unless he plays next to a big and strong DT that can cover for him in the run game.

[Nconroe]

I don't think you can blame the loss on one or two guys or one or two plays, it was pretty much the complete defense, starters and all, all positions. Only the third quarter defense was ok. Special teams were not good overall, atleast on the one big return. and offense was not too good once starters were out. so, I'll let it go as a character building, learning experience, during preseason, maybe they were flat for some reason. Hope to see things get better as more starters return from injuries and season continues.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by Keith

[URL]Wow, a chuck sighting. Were you there tonight?

No, I'm not in town at the moment. I'll be at the regular season opener. Do you still tailgate at the old place? If so I'll come find you. It would be good to see you again.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by barrett

But I am still willing to wait and see what Okoye becomes.

Barrett you truly have the “patience of Job”.

[Joshua]

paine and barrett,

Thanks for the response to my questions. While I would be the first to admit that I'm no expert on D line schemes, I guess I had a different idea of what a more aggressive D versus a read-and-react one would look like. While being more aggressive does have the tradeoff that you will run yourself out of plays sometimes, I had never envisioned it as being a scheme where our linemen simply charge blindly upfield regardless of down and distance. Perhaps wrongly, I assumed that there would still be some recognition of the likelihood of pass versus run and the aggressiveness of their charge would be dictated accordingly. Clearly, this is nothing more than guesswork much of the time, but other teams seem to be able to do it. I guess my assumption was wrong, but I assumed that our more agressive approach was one reserved primarily for plays when we anticipated a pass, rather than our default mode in all scenarios.

Also, while I was at the game and haven't had the opportunity to rewatch it. I distinctly remember several running plays where Okoye and Okam just got walked backward completely out of the play. They didn't run past the play because of their aggression and stellar pass rush. Instead, I saw 2 guys who just got worked over at the point of attack. While it is too early to draw any major conclusions, I'm at least slightly concerned and I think our interior line play warrants a close eye. In this regard we're lucky, they won't get a better test than the one coming in Monday night.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by chuck

No, I'm not in town at the moment. I'll be at the regular season opener. Do you still tailgate at the old place? If so I'll come find you. It would be good to see you again.

I haven't been to a tailgate in a long time. Wife and kids usually want to make a bee-line into the stadium when we arrive.

I wouldn't mind crashing someone else's tailgate to meet up though if another ItB'er has one going (Mike - did you know someone?). I'm also in the middle of the last row of sec 137, usually an hour or so before kickoff even, if you want to stop by on the way to your seats (you still in the mezz above me?).

[chuck]

Originally Posted by Keith

I haven't been to a tailgate in a long time. Wife and kids usually want to make a bee-line into the stadium when we arrive.

I wouldn't mind crashing someone else's tailgate to meet up though if another ItB'er has one going (Mike - did you know someone?). I'm also in the middle of the last row of sec 137, usually an hour or so before kickoff even, if you want to stop by on the way to your seats (you still in the mezz above me?).

Exactly, 354. I'll come find you before a game. If you end up crashing a tailgate let me know.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Joshua

paine and barrett,

Thanks for the response to my questions. While I would be the first to admit that I'm no expert on D line schemes, I guess I had a different idea of what a more aggressive D versus a read-and-react one would look like. While being more aggressive does have the tradeoff that you will run yourself out of plays sometimes, I had never envisioned it as being a scheme where our linemen simply charge blindly upfield regardless of down and distance. Perhaps wrongly, I assumed that there would still be some recognition of the likelihood of pass versus run and the aggressiveness of their charge would be dictated accordingly. Clearly, this is nothing more than guesswork much of the time, but other teams seem to be able to do it. I guess my assumption was wrong, but I assumed that our more agressive approach was one reserved primarily for plays when we anticipated a pass, rather than our default mode in all scenarios.

Also, while I was at the game and haven't had the opportunity to rewatch it. I distinctly remember several running plays where Okoye and Okam just got walked backward completely out of the play. They didn't run past the play because of their aggression and stellar pass rush. Instead, I saw 2 guys who just got worked over at the point of attack. While it is too early to draw any major conclusions, I'm at least slightly concerned and I think our interior line play warrants a close eye. In this regard we're lucky, they won't get a better test than the one coming in Monday night.

I don't think we are really disagreeing all that much. I don't think the DL played a great game, I just think they did a large part of what they were asked. I think they were in the backfield often.

As for diagnosing when a play is a run or a pass, this is the strength of a read and react DL scheme. If you are firing off you are not doing much diagnosing. So we had gaps and lanes. And we have no LBs or Safetys whose strength is filling a whole. This makes the DL look very bad. As for other teams doing it, the only team I know of who plays with 2 DTs penetrating is the colts. And they get gouged by the run, but they play with the lead most of the time so it is not a big deal. And of course they have Bob Sanders in the box and they lose when they don't.

Most teams have at least one DT anchoring and eating blockers. We don't have that guy. Travis Johnson is far and away our best at it, and he is average (and missing). Okam, for all his size, is better at penetrating than at holding ground. deljuan shoots gaps. okoye shoots gaps. Cody shoots gaps.

We don't have a DT that plays the run. So I am not going to blame DL play but rather Bush or Rick Smith. More aggressive is not always better. I said this over and over last year when people wanted aggressive. You have to have the players for aggressive. Otherwise every D-coordinator in the NFL would be bringing pressure on every play. We don't have the players for it. Our LBs are too small to play unprotected. Demeco is great when protected by the DT and awful when the OL gets to him. Diles is small at SLB. And our Safeties are no force in the run game. And we did nothing at DT or at Safety this offseason.

We need to hope TJ and Cushing make a big impact, or we may be even worse on D than last year.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by barrett

If you are firing off you are not doing much diagnosing. So we had gaps and lanes.

I had this same argument last year. The problem with an across the board 1 gap system with your front seven is if one guy screws up it can lead to a huge play.

Most teams have at least one DT anchoring and eating blockers. We don't have that guy. Travis Johnson is far and away our best at it, and he is average (and missing). Okam, for all his size, is better at penetrating than at holding ground. deljuan shoots gaps. okoye shoots gaps. Cody shoots gaps.

Having that one space eating tackle can make the difference. It allows your other lineman to be more agressive. Okam is our best hope. He looked much improved...until the Saints game. I still think there's a chance he can provide a boost to the NT position.

More aggressive is not always better. I said this over and over last year when people wanted aggressive. You have to have the players for aggressive. Otherwise every D-coordinator in the NFL would be bringing pressure on every play.

I know people who talked about how we should use more agressice zone blitzing....and then bitched when we ran a zone blitz with Mario in coverage. The whole premise of the zone blitz is that it confuses the QB because he never knows who is rushing and who is going into coverage. If your going to do Zone blitz then Mario (really all of the lineman) have to drop into coverage from time to time or the element of surprise is gone. My point is that aggressive defense is one of those buzz words that people get caught up in without realizing the negatives.

Demeco is great when protected by the DT and awful when the OL gets to him.

Haven't noticed it as much this year yet...but I was really disappointed in Demeco's sloppy tackling last year. He missed a lot of tackles because he just lunged in the general direction of the ball carrier. Could have been a symptom of the injury I guess.

Diles is small at SLB.

That's what scares me. We supposedly want to do a lot of 4-3 under stuff where the SAM is up on the line and really needs to be a physical presence. Other than Cushing we don't have anyone who is built for this. If he misses a lot of time we'll have to adjust the defense...and that could keep us from building an identity on defense and executing the way we should.

We need to hope TJ and Cushing make a big impact, or we may be even worse on D than last year.

I agree...although I'm not sure we could be much worse. The key is stopping the run. If we can be decent against the run and force 3rd and longs on a more regular basis I actually feel pretty good about our ability to harass the QB.
Our defense needs to be aggressive to a degree...there's no point in not having Okoye(or most of our other DT's) shoot the gap. It's what he's best at. We need someone to step up at the other tackle who can really mix it up and clog the middle. Our only hope is TJ or Okam IMO....or another teams cast off.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Keith

I wouldn't mind crashing someone else's tailgate to meet up though if another ItB'er has one going (Mike - did you know someone?). I'm also in the middle of the last row of sec 137, usually an hour or so before kickoff even, if you want to stop by on the way to your seats (you still in the mezz above me?).

My tailgate activities are hit and miss. I have a few that I host, otherwise it is just a few of my friends who might be attending that particular game. Activity depends on how much my wife has been widowed the previous week. I am in section 349 always in my seat for the warm-ups and player introductions.

[Joshua]

Originally Posted by barrett

I don't think we are really disagreeing all that much. I don't think the DL played a great game, I just think they did a large part of what they were asked. I think they were in the backfield often.

As for diagnosing when a play is a run or a pass, this is the strength of a read and react DL scheme. If you are firing off you are not doing much diagnosing. So we had gaps and lanes. And we have no LBs or Safetys whose strength is filling a whole. This makes the DL look very bad. As for other teams doing it, the only team I know of who plays with 2 DTs penetrating is the colts. And they get gouged by the run, but they play with the lead most of the time so it is not a big deal. And of course they have Bob Sanders in the box and they lose when they don't.

Most teams have at least one DT anchoring and eating blockers. We don't have that guy. Travis Johnson is far and away our best at it, and he is average (and missing). Okam, for all his size, is better at penetrating than at holding ground. deljuan shoots gaps. okoye shoots gaps. Cody shoots gaps.

We don't have a DT that plays the run. So I am not going to blame DL play but rather Bush or Rick Smith. More aggressive is not always better. I said this over and over last year when people wanted aggressive. You have to have the players for aggressive. Otherwise every D-coordinator in the NFL would be bringing pressure on every play. We don't have the players for it. Our LBs are too small to play unprotected. Demeco is great when protected by the DT and awful when the OL gets to him. Diles is small at SLB. And our Safeties are no force in the run game. And we did nothing at DT or at Safety this offseason.

We need to hope TJ and Cushing make a big impact, or we may be even worse on D than last year.

Good points all.

I seem to recall hearing one of the coaches commenting one time that they didn't want the big, gap plugging DT, but wanted guys who could play sideline to sideline. Now, maybe this comment was just meant to inspire confidence in the guys we have but it always bugged me. For the life of me, I don't know why having a DT who can cover huge swaths of the field is a prerequisite. While I understand wanting athleticism, good teams have to stop the run and it almost always starts with a monster inside.

You're right about Demeco, or almost any other middle linebacker as well. Ray Lewis came way back to earth after the Ravens lost Siragusa and some of their other big guys up front. Then they drafted Ngata, and whaddayaknow, Ray Ray is all over the field again.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Joshua

Good points all.

I seem to recall hearing one of the coaches commenting one time that they didn't want the big, gap plugging DT, but wanted guys who could play sideline to sideline. Now, maybe this comment was just meant to inspire confidence in the guys we have but it always bugged me. For the life of me, I don't know why having a DT who can cover huge swaths of the field is a prerequisite. While I understand wanting athleticism, good teams have to stop the run and it almost always starts with a monster inside.

You're right about Demeco, or almost any other middle linebacker as well. Ray Lewis came way back to earth after the Ravens lost Siragusa and some of their other big guys up front. Then they drafted Ngata, and whaddayaknow, Ray Ray is all over the field again.

Yep. most athletic sideline-to-sideline types at MLB struggle without DL protection. demeco is normal in this. That is why if we are going to shoot gaps with all of our DL I think we have the wrong personnel. It wastes Demeco. Plus we have no safety presence in the box. I mean our FS's biggest impact against the run was when he threw a great block to spring Mike Bell on his TD run.

Hopefully Cushing makes a difference just by providing size at the point of attack. And even if he can't, we have a defense built to put pressure on the QB with the front 4. We just have to play with a lead so teams don't stuff it down our throat. This was the Colts blueprint to one superbowl, so maybe we can see the playoffs with it.

[Bigtinylittle]

Originally Posted by barrett

I don't think we are really disagreeing all that much. I don't think the DL played a great game, I just think they did a large part of what they were asked. I think they were in the backfield often.

As for diagnosing when a play is a run or a pass, this is the strength of a read and react DL scheme. If you are firing off you are not doing much diagnosing. So we had gaps and lanes. And we have no LBs or Safetys whose strength is filling a whole. This makes the DL look very bad. As for other teams doing it, the only team I know of who plays with 2 DTs penetrating is the colts. And they get gouged by the run, but they play with the lead most of the time so it is not a big deal. And of course they have Bob Sanders in the box and they lose when they don't.

Most teams have at least one DT anchoring and eating blockers. We don't have that guy. Travis Johnson is far and away our best at it, and he is average (and missing). Okam, for all his size, is better at penetrating than at holding ground. deljuan shoots gaps. okoye shoots gaps. Cody shoots gaps.

We don't have a DT that plays the run. So I am not going to blame DL play but rather Bush or Rick Smith. More aggressive is not always better. I said this over and over last year when people wanted aggressive. You have to have the players for aggressive. Otherwise every D-coordinator in the NFL would be bringing pressure on every play. We don't have the players for it. Our LBs are too small to play unprotected. Demeco is great when protected by the DT and awful when the OL gets to him. Diles is small at SLB. And our Safeties are no force in the run game. And we did nothing at DT or at Safety this offseason.

We need to hope TJ and Cushing make a big impact, or we may be even worse on D than last year.

I'm going to go ahead and nominate this for post of the week!

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Joshua

Then they drafted Ngata, and whaddayaknow, Ray Ray is all over the field again.

I honestly dunno if Ngata has been to a pro bowl, but no matter he's a tremendous talent and a very valuable addition and member of the Ravens D.
Actually, into the 4th year now after the 2006 Draft I'd put him in with Mario and Cutler as the Big 3 coming out of that Draft.