Owen Daniels Contract Negotiations

[dadmg]

Originally Posted by kravix

dadmg,

not to take from the conversation here, but my understanding is that there is more of a rift between the owners and profit sharing than there is with the NFLPA and the owners. I understnad that some teams couldnt come close to the cap without the CBA and why it crosses into both realms, and I understand why they cant negotiate them seperatly at this point because of revenue, but it would be nice if we had a new agreement in place with no uncapped year, and a rookie payscale.

I dont see how the rich owners dont understand that their salaries will be more than they pay in revenue sharing now if they dont agree. Football works because of the sharing, FA, and cap which gives it more parity.

Sorry, I was a bit confusing there. The rift was/is between the owners, but I've read a few articles that said Upshaw did a good job during the last round of negotiations to keep the focus on the owners rift between each other to make it more difficult for them to present a united front and bargain better against the players, which may have been how the players came away like bandits in that last round of CBA negotiations.

[cland]

In Daniels credit, I think we may be over analyzing the stats. Stats tell you a lot about your offenses scheme and offensive coaches/players success on a fairly high level. But, when you look at the TE position you have to take into account that their skills are much more about quality rather than quantity.

To put it simply, would you throw to Owen when it's 4th and 7, with the game on the line. I'd say yes, and I think Daniels has made a pretty strong case. The guy catches everything thrown his way. Dressen could probably put up %70 of Daniels numbers at %10 of the cost, but the critical game moments is when a TE earns his money.

That being said, I'll pay Daniels the top 3-4 TE money just for those critical game moments.

[Royal We Texans Off]

[barrett]

Originally Posted by cland

In Daniels credit, I think we may be over analyzing the stats. Stats tell you a lot about your offenses scheme and offensive coaches/players success on a fairly high level. But, when you look at the TE position you have to take into account that their skills are much more about quality rather than quantity.

To put it simply, would you throw to Owen when it's 4th and 7, with the game on the line. I'd say yes, and I think Daniels has made a pretty strong case. The guy catches everything thrown his way. Dressen could probably put up %70 of Daniels numbers at %10 of the cost, but the critical game moments is when a TE earns his money.

That being said, I'll pay Daniels the top 3-4 TE money just for those critical game moments.

[Royal We Texans Off]

Isn't the goalline where a TE has most of their "critical" moments? If so I can't see paying OD huge money.

My problem is I don't see OD as one of our most important players and I think if you pay him big (even in an uncapped situation), than you end up with a dozen other guys wanting big paydays.

Just among our skill position guys OD is the #4 option. How many #4 options see big paydays?

[Bigtinylittle]

Originally Posted by barrett

Isn't the goalline where a TE has most of their "critical" moments? If so I can't see paying OD huge money.

My problem is I don't see OD as one of our most important players and I think if you pay him big (even in an uncapped situation), than you end up with a dozen other guys wanting big paydays.

Just among our skill position guys OD is the #4 option. How many #4 options see big paydays?

This is exactly how I see the situation. I think OD's yardage total is highly misleading in relation to his true value. I hear people like Lance Zurlein saying ''well you have to pay him what he wants anyway because those are his numbers.'' I say no you don't.

I say if you want to run a top-notch organization you don't overpay anybody if you don't have to. Personally, I will lose some respect for Rick Smith if he caves in to OD's demands. Because both Smith and Kubiak know he's not worth what he's asking for.

[da Bull]

For me, the real question is where do you put the premium (long term, high dollar contracts) when the team starts winning? We all assume, hopefully so, that it will begin this upcoming season. So, everyone participating is going to want to get paid the big bucks and there isn't going to be enough to go around. Even in an uncapped year, there is going to be a threshold of available monies just like there will be a threshold regarding fans paying escalated ticket prices, buying expensive gear and etc.

Yah, we want the guys who were on the bus while making the trip to get paid. But, I'd rather see the bus keep on rolling than be stopped for lack of gas money.

[cadams]

Originally Posted by barrett

Isn't the goalline where a TE has most of their "critical" moments? If so I can't see paying OD huge money.

My problem is I don't see OD as one of our most important players and I think if you pay him big (even in an uncapped situation), than you end up with a dozen other guys wanting big paydays.

Just among our skill position guys OD is the #4 option. How many #4 options see big paydays?

#4 option? who are the three people you have in front of him?

AJ most certainly.

I am assuming you are including Slayton in there. He definitely had a great rookie year, but he needs to show he can continue that. Also, I guess what number slayton is depends on the situation. 3rd and 1, i got no problem saying he is top 2 options, 3rd and 7? not so sure.

You could go with walter, but i think daniels is a better option than him, and at no worse even with him.

also you have to think about positions when you make these decisions. if daniels is as good as your #2 wide receiver then he is worth much, much more than that #2. Given our scheme, daniels is often going to get matched up with a line backer since he is a tight end, which means there will often be a mismatch, you have to take that into account, and if they put a db on him, that opens up other options for the offense that wouldnt normally be there. again though, please list the three guys you have ahead of daniels. (schaub does not count)

[barrett]

Originally Posted by cadams

#4 option? who are the three people you have in front of him?

AJ most certainly.

I am assuming you are including Slayton in there. He definitely had a great rookie year, but he needs to show he can continue that. Also, I guess what number slayton is depends on the situation. 3rd and 1, i got no problem saying he is top 2 options, 3rd and 7? not so sure.

You could go with walter, but i think daniels is a better option than him, and at no worse even with him.

also you have to think about positions when you make these decisions. if daniels is as good as your #2 wide receiver then he is worth much, much more than that #2. Given our scheme, daniels is often going to get matched up with a line backer since he is a tight end, which means there will often be a mismatch, you have to take that into account, and if they put a db on him, that opens up other options for the offense that wouldnt normally be there. again though, please list the three guys you have ahead of daniels. (schaub does not count)

The three that you easily came up with. AJ is clearly our #1 offensive option. Everything revolves around him and the way that defenses must account for him.

Slaton is clearly #2. He was a big threat in both the passing and running game. He totalled over 1650 yards from scrimmage and 10 TDs.

Walter is a notch above Daniels as well. He went for 900 yards and 8 TDs. He is reliable over the middle, on the out route, and stretches the field. Most of the time you get one of the three with a second receiver. He did them all, and he is a great blocker. Honestly he is a better run blocker than OD.

Daniels has really good numbers for a TE, but he is still the #4 option for the Texans. He is a very smart player. He is great at adjusting his routes to give Schaub an outlet against the blitz. He shows great patience getting off of the line and into his routes and avoids safety coverage by doing this (that's why he runs the backside screen so well). He's a great fit here. He is honestly one of my favorite Texans. I hope we retain him. I just don't know of many teams paying option 4 huge money.

But I will admit that I looked at the other TE contracts around the league and they have leaped up the last few years with guys like Dallas Clark getting rich and even Chris Cooley cashing in. So he is honestly not being unreasonable.

So I hope OD gets his and it doesn't keep us from keeping everyone else we need to keep (because their are probably a dozen guys I think are more important to retain).

[superbowlbound]

Originally Posted by barrett

The three that you easily came up with. AJ is clearly our #1 offensive option. Everything revolves around him and the way that defenses must account for him.

Slaton is clearly #2. He was a big threat in both the passing and running game. He totalled over 1650 yards from scrimmage and 10 TDs.

Walter is a notch above Daniels as well. He went for 900 yards and 8 TDs. He is reliable over the middle, on the out route, and stretches the field. Most of the time you get one of the three with a second receiver. He did them all, and he is a great blocker. Honestly he is a better run blocker than OD.

Daniels has really good numbers for a TE, but he is still the #4 option for the Texans. He is a very smart player. He is great at adjusting his routes to give Schaub an outlet against the blitz. He shows great patience getting off of the line and into his routes and avoids safety coverage by doing this (that's why he runs the backside screen so well). He's a great fit here. He is honestly one of my favorite Texans. I hope we retain him. I just don't know of many teams paying option 4 huge money.

But I will admit that I looked at the other TE contracts around the league and they have leaped up the last few years with guys like Dallas Clark getting rich and even Chris Cooley cashing in. So he is honestly not being unreasonable.

So I hope OD gets his and it doesn't keep us from keeping everyone else we need to keep (because their are probably a dozen guys I think are more important to retain).

I'm not disagreeing entirely with you, as I think you're pretty much correct, save a bit of the walter argument. While the numbers don't lie, and his TD numbers were better than Daniels, what? 4 times over? But I think you underestimate his value as a security blanket, especially given how small slaton is. You really don't want slaton having to catch too many balls with his back to the defense in the middle of the field. Daniels does a great job as an outlet, which further increases his value. a reliable guy that can play in the seams and stretch the field from the TE position is not that easily found. As a reliable outlet in the flats, he saves wear on the only solid back on this roster, and allows Matt to stay in a rhythm by completing passes rather than eating sacks or chucking it out of bounds. The fact of the matter is that Daniels is easily one of the best TE's in football, and when guys like LJ Smith and Jim Kleinsasser are nearly lapping him in terms of cap numbers, the dude is owed a raise. period.

Also, you say that Walter is a much better run blocker than daniels, but look at who he's blocking. Daniels is up against strong side defensive ends and linebackers, while walter is blocking #2 CB's. when there's an 80 lb difference between the defenders in question, that argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, Daniels is an adequate, willing run blocker, so I don't see that as much of an issue.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by superbowlbound

I'm not disagreeing entirely with you, as I think you're pretty much correct, save a bit of the walter argument. While the numbers don't lie, and his TD numbers were better than Daniels, what? 4 times over? But I think you underestimate his value as a security blanket, especially given how small slaton is. You really don't want slaton having to catch too many balls with his back to the defense in the middle of the field. Daniels does a great job as an outlet, which further increases his value. a reliable guy that can play in the seams and stretch the field from the TE position is not that easily found. As a reliable outlet in the flats, he saves wear on the only solid back on this roster, and allows Matt to stay in a rhythm by completing passes rather than eating sacks or chucking it out of bounds. The fact of the matter is that Daniels is easily one of the best TE's in football, and when guys like LJ Smith and Jim Kleinsasser are nearly lapping him in terms of cap numbers, the dude is owed a raise. period.

Also, you say that Walter is a much better run blocker than daniels, but look at who he's blocking. Daniels is up against strong side defensive ends and linebackers, while walter is blocking #2 CB's. when there's an 80 lb difference between the defenders in question, that argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, Daniels is an adequate, willing run blocker, so I don't see that as much of an issue.

I agree with you here that he deserves a raise. I balk at how much out of gut reaction, but with my last post I went and looked at TE salaries and saw I was wrong about where they are at. It appears OD is not being unreasonable, and I hope he gets paid commensurate for what he does.

But I disagree regarding the blocking. Walter is often cracking in our run game and I have seen him stone LBs and be a willing speed bump for DL. OD on the other hand is often put in motion in the run game and is matched up heads up very rarely with a LB on the play side in our offense. Walter is a great run blocker and is far more eager for contact than daniels. But OD is a pass catching TE who is split off the line regularly so I have no problem with him not being a 6th OL in the run game. Honestly he 'blocks' more effectively by being a good receiver, spreading the field, and not tipping run or pass by being on the field than he does by actually blocking. But either way, I think Walter is a better option in the offense, and a very complete player. There are not many better WR2s in the NFL. Walter for a 7th rounder was probably our best trade ever.