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-   -   Mid-Round RB: Who Ya Want? (http://inthebullseye.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512)

Keith 03-29-2009 11:08 AM

Mid-Round RB: Who Ya Want?
 
Considering, (1) that the Texans are likely to be shopping for at least one running back in the draft, and (2) that they are not likely to get one of the first round or probably early second round prospects at the position, which player would be your pick? Vote and tell us why, heck even feel free to comment with a ranking, too.

I've removed Beanie Wells, Knowshon Moreno, and Donald Brown from consideration. I'm also taking LeSean McCoy off the board since he is currently thought to be off the board by the Texans' second round pick (though I think he is completely overrated that high and really a poor, poor pick for what the Texans offense needs).

The next group, in alpha order (ht/wt, 40/10, bench, vert, broad, 20, cone - combine #s unless noted with asterisk):
Andre Brown, NC State - 6001/224, 4.47/1.47, 24, 37.0", 9'7", 4.28*, 7.08*
Shonn Greene, Iowa - 5104/227, 4.55/1.57*, 23*, 39.0"*, 10'6"*, 4.25*, 7.10
Rashad Jennings, Liberty - 6010/231, 4.52/1.53*, 29, 34.0", 10'0", 4.20, 6.79*
Cedric Peerman, Virginia - 5094/216, 4.39/1.47, 27, 40.0", 9'9", 4.29, 6.99
Javon Ringer, Michigan St. - 5091/205, 4.56/1.58, 23, 34.0", 9'7", 4.11, 6.87
Javarris Williams, Tenn St. - 5094/223, 4.51/1.50, 25, 33.5", 9'8", 4.73*, 7.26*
And of course, "other", if you want someone else.

painekiller 03-29-2009 11:41 AM

I picked Brown, but would be happy with Jennings, Peerman or Williams also.

TexanJedi 03-29-2009 01:10 PM

I picked Peerman because, while I like Brown I think he might be moving up the board and will be gone by the time we want to take a back in round 3 or more likely 4. Peerman has great measureables and looked even better than Brown at the Senior Bowl I thought. He seemed to be a more decisive runner. Since he's from Virginia I guess he's like a bigger, faster, Walli Lundy.

I still like Glen Coffee though. He's just a little bigger than Slaton but runs tough inside the tackles. I wish he would there in round 5 so the Texans can address other needs in the first 4 rounds.

idymoe 03-29-2009 01:13 PM

I don't think Shonn Greene is there at our 3rd pick. I voted for Jennings & like Brown and Peerman next.

edo783 03-29-2009 06:03 PM

A. Brown. However, I suspect we will need to take him in the 2nd if we want him. A back with that size and speed is a want by most teams.

jppaul 03-29-2009 06:08 PM

Shonn Greene but I don't think he will be there, but since he was a choice I picked him anyway.

Roy P 03-29-2009 07:54 PM

If we are to believe John McClain, we won't be drafting a RB until the 3rd round. While I'd be fine with Shonn Greene or Andre Brown, I imagine that they both will be off the board before our pick #77.

Let me be clear, I'm looking for a guy to move the sticks on third and short by running between the tackles. Rashad Jennings appears that he'd be able to do that, but I have too many questions about his character or work ethic. He is a guy who may eat himself out of job and become a 265lbs wasted pick. Apparently, his older brothers have had to mentor him into becoming more mature and serious about football. I'm concerned that he might not be a "self-starter" and may need constant supervision.

While Peeman has really great measurables, I'll admit that I was very impressed by his Combine, there was not much production from him. There is the question of his small hands and other negatives that I won't go into.

Therefore, I'm left with Javarris Williams. He may be the best north-south runner after Andre Brown. He has a low center of gravity and can push a pile and break tackles. I won't go on record saying he is an every down back, because I'm not sure how well he can run on the edges, he doesn't have break-away speed, and won't make you think of Barry Sanders with his elusiveness. However, for a late round pick who can complement Steve Slaton, this guy can carry a load.

Want some production as proof?
He leaves the university ranking second in school history with 849 carries, 4,329 rushing yards and 5,117 all-purpose yards. He ranks third in school annals in scoring with 264 points and 44 total touchdowns, as his 42 touchdowns rushing set a TSU all-time mark.

Only two other players ever rushed for more than 1,000 yards in a season for the Tigers, and Williams accomplished that feat three times. He is also the only player to lead the team in rushing four times in his career, as he owns four of the top seven spots on Tennessee State's single-season record list for rushing yardage.

jppaul 03-29-2009 08:14 PM

BTW as far as Ringer goes, I am not very high on him but he dropped a 3.98 in the short shuttle on his proday. That is amazing.

Roy P 03-29-2009 08:36 PM

Andre Brown is currently ranked #54 - #70, depending upon where you look. Would anybody here who voted for Brown be willing to trade our #77 and #112 to move up to #64 in order to draft him?

I'm assuming that we drafted a LB like Matthews and a DB like William Moore with our 1st 2 picks, so those needs have been filled.

Remember, there appears to be a lot of players who could fill roster spots in the 3rd and 4th rounds this year. We would be giving up on one of them, assuming one of those picks would be going to a RB (maybe of lesser stature).

jppaul 03-29-2009 10:59 PM

Actually sorry thats a 3.89 on his short shuttle.

Roy P 04-17-2009 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 9706)
Andre Brown is currently ranked #54 - #70, depending upon where you look. Would anybody here who voted for Brown be willing to trade our #77 and #112 to move up to #64 in order to draft him?

I still haven't heard an answer to this question. Today I heard a guy talking about the Texans drafting Brown at #46, which I think is a reach. Then he talked about how Andre Brown is this year's Mike Forte of the draft. We may have to use our 3rd round (#77), 4th round (#112), and 5th (#152) round pick to move up to #59 in order to get him.

There are quite a few successful teams with a RB by committee, in which the RBs could be "featured" backs. Brown could be that if he's another Forte and we know what we have in Slaton. My question boils down to, is getting another RB worth giving up the 4th and 5th rounders (assuming the 3rd would be going to a RB anyway). Rashad Jennings might not last to #77, for those who thought he might. Who may we be missing out on at those slots?

4th - David Bruton, Cedric Peeman, Gerald McGrath, CJ Spillman, Roy Miller

5th - AQ Shipley, Johnny Knox, Gregory Toler, Scott McKillop, James Davis

painekiller 04-17-2009 10:21 PM

I say no way give up both rounds, but a future pick? Would I give a 4th this year and a 4th next year? I might.

What about picking higher, maybe trying to get to a late 1st or early 2nd round pick ? What would the cost be? Remember future picks could be in play?

Roy P 04-17-2009 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by painekiller (Post 10431)

What about picking higher, maybe trying to get to a late 1st or early 2nd round pick ? What would the cost be? Remember future picks could be in play?

Are you suggesting we trade up for Donald?

Hmm....

#28 now belongs to the Bills and Marshawn Lynch has a suspension coming up. #27 is the Colts' and Joseph Addai has had his issues. #29 is the Giants who may be thinking that they are only a Big WR away, so they might not be wanting to trade down to #46. Everyone knows that Arizona wants a RB, so I'm not thinking they move out. I'm not giving Tennessee extra picks. Pittsburgh might be too late.

So, my best option is hoping the Colts pass on him or take Knowshon Moreno and the Bills trade out of their new pick for two more picks in which they can get A. Brown. It's going to cost me #46 and #77 for a total of 645 points to do that. They might go for this year's second round pick and next year's 2nd. What ya think?

painekiller 04-17-2009 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 10435)

So, my best option is hoping the Colts pass on him or take Knowshon Moreno and the Bills trade out of their new pick for two more picks in which they can get A. Brown. It's going to cost me #46 and #77 for a total of 645 points to do that. They might go for this year's second round pick and next year's 2nd. What ya think?

I am almost thinking I would make that offer to Indy, and grab the Donald at 27.

How about a trading down from 15 to the low 20's, get's a 3rd, and then make the offer to Indy of #46 and next years 2nd for 27? ...

Wait, this just in. DraftDaddy.com has a 2 round mock and guess what?

We get Malcolm Jenkins and Donald Brown. Brown at #46. I don't see it.

machoneil 04-18-2009 10:04 AM

We'll get Brown on one of our trade down acquisitions

Roy P 04-18-2009 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by painekiller (Post 10436)
I am almost thinking I would make that offer to Indy, and grab the Donald at 27.

How about a trading down from 15 to the low 20's, get's a 3rd, and then make the offer to Indy of #46 and next years 2nd for 27? ...

Wait, this just in. DraftDaddy.com has a 2 round mock and guess what?

We get Malcolm Jenkins and Donald Brown. Brown at #46. I don't see it.

The trade down option may be there or not. If Everette Brown is still on the board, I'm not trading down. If we get to the low 20's I'm hoping Clay Matthews, Peria Jerry, or Vontae Daivs is the pick. I know you rate Ziggy higher, but I'm a little cautious about him that high. I've seen him moving up draft boards (up to #26 but as low at #37) but he may be climbing more because of his Combine numbers rather than his game film. The good thing about trading down is we would still have a 3rd round pick. That way we could end up with Mathews, Brown, and Vaughn.

Donald Brown at #46? Do they have a bridge for sale too?

Blitzwood 04-18-2009 11:42 AM

I don't think our first rounder will be a situational guy, but more of a starter or tandem RB player, I could see us going with Mack, Woods, Oher, Maclin, or Wells on offense or on defense going with Matthews, Sintim, Jenkins, Butler, Gilbert, Jerry, Hood, or Cushings.

My Mid round RB preferences:
1. S. Greene
2. Andre Brown
2b. Jennings
3. James Davis
4. G. Coffee

Sleeper RB is Herb Donaldson from W. Illinois
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3n26z6Zr98

Roy P 04-18-2009 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzwood (Post 10446)

My Mid round RB preferences:
1. S. Greene
2. Andre Brown
2b. Jennings
3. James Davis
4. G. Coffee

Sleeper RB is Herb Donaldson from W. Illinois
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3n26z6Zr98

I don't think that the 2nd round qualifies as "mid round" and that's what Greene and Brown are starting to look like. Jennings might be available in the 3rd round.

I was hot on Donaldson early on, but then his Combine cooled me off after running a 4.68. The same goes for Gartrell Johnson and his 4.75. If I want a slow cruise liner, Arian Foster is a 4.68 guy.

My super duper deepity deep dark horse is Tyler Roehl from North Dakota State. He's a FB/HB/RB hybrid. I call him a shorter Brian Leonard.

HPF Bob 04-18-2009 01:06 PM

Peerman scares me because I ask where was that speed when he was on the playing field? I'd be alright with Brown/Green/Jennings based on whom the Texans believe is the best choice. While Casserly became easy to predict, the Rick Smith era has not been for me other than he seems to like ACC/Big East guys and he has a knack for taking guys who weren't anywhere near my radar.

Thinking outside the box, here are two names to consider as contingencies.

Javorskie Lane probably won't have his name called until the 6th or 7th round but if you want a guy who moves the pile, he certainly can. He would have to be a short-yardage only guy but there are few I would trust more to get me one yard I absolutely had to get - that is, until he eats half of Sharpstown.

Judging by the fact that he signed three FA running backs in the off-season and spent yesterday singing the praises of Peyton Hillis, I'm guessing McDaniels will not be keeping Selvyn Young on the Broncos. Young's proved that, when healthy, he's a legit all-purpose back in a ZBS offense and he would be a cheap back-up for Slaton who will have the offense picked up in no time. He's not an answer to the short-yardage issue but he would be good insurance and wouldn't cost as much as the Chris Brown signing last year. He's also a Houston product so he wouldn't be hard to sign.

Blitzwood 04-18-2009 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 9690)
thought to be off the board by the Texans' second round pick (though I think he is completely overrated that high and really a poor, poor pick for what the Texans offense needs).


And of course, "other", if you want someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 10451)
I don't think that the 2nd round qualifies as "mid round" and that's what Greene and Brown are starting to look like. Jennings might be available in the 3rd round.

I was hot on Donaldson early on, but then his Combine cooled me off after running a 4.68. The same goes for Gartrell Johnson and his 4.75. If I want a slow cruise liner, Arian Foster is a 4.68 guy.

Roy, I was keeping with Keith's original post as to who will be there when our 2nd round pick is on the clock, I'm sorry you feel that the 2nd round doesn't "qualify" as a mid rounder....


I'm not looking for a sub 4.5 RB in the mid-rounds, I want a thumper that can punch it in on goalline and short yardage situations. If I take a "thumper" in the second or third, then I would look at J. Williams, a local product, as insurance for Slaton.

A. Foster does too much dancing for a guy his size, IMO, and had some ball security issues in 08. I like H. Donaldson's toughness and determination fighting off tackles. He's got a nice stiff arm and is tough to bring down.

painekiller 04-18-2009 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPF Bob (Post 10453)
Javorskie Lane probably won't have his name called until the 6th or 7th round but if you want a guy who moves the pile, he certainly can. He would have to be a short-yardage only guy but there are few I would trust more to get me one yard I absolutely had to get - that is, until he eats half of Sharpstown.

I have not seen any talk about Lane since the all star games. And then it was what a shame he could/would not stop eating.

I do not see him being pick by any one.

hound 04-18-2009 03:56 PM

I like H. Donaldson also for the power back... to come in to rest Slaton and to pound away at the end of the game when you are trying to run out the clock.

I don't think there is any way the Texans will draft a guy before the 3rd... why bring in a new guy and pay him more money to be back up than your top RB who only got 3rd round money. The Texans are most likely to spend the lowest pick they can on a RB that can do what they want.

Another guy I like very, very late... as a roll player RB....

NFLdraftcountdown says...

"Naturally athletic...Very good size and bulk...Strong and runs hard...A patient runner...Excellent hands...Runs great routes...Above average blocker...Smart...Special teams ability...A hard worker...Team leader. A four-time Academic All-Big 12 selection...Was a semifinalist for the Draddy Trophy (Academic Heisman)...Has the ability to play either running back or fullback at the next level...Multitalented player who does everything well but nothing great." 6" 220 runs a 4.6 Averaged 5.0 yards a carry as a senior and caught 46 passes for 540 yards... in fact started college as a wide receiver... Chris Ogbonnaya Probably get him as FA or 7th round...

Roy P 04-18-2009 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzwood (Post 10457)

I'm not looking for a sub 4.5 RB in the mid-rounds, I want a thumper that can punch it in on goalline and short yardage situations. If I take a "thumper" in the second or third, then I would look at J. Williams, a local product, as insurance for Slaton.

I don't need sub 4.5 either, but sub 4.6 is a must for me.

Are you talking about Javarris Williams in the 2nd or 3rd round?

Roy P 04-18-2009 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 10451)
Jennings might be available in the 3rd round.

I keep watching the Senior Bowl practices, since Liberty didn't have many games on T.V., and Jennings is not impressing me much. I keep seeing him run high and getting knocked over by "thumps" that the defense is allowed to do in practice. At first, I let is slide when I saw Cushing de-cleat him on a run. However, when Sherrod Martin gives you a love tap and you fall over like Ronnie Lott just tagged you, I start to worry.

If we don't get a Moreno or Brown early, I am starting to think that there is really 3 guys to target afterwards. Andre Brown, Shonn Greene, or Javarris Williams. Brown and Greene might have to be 2nd round targets, only a miracle would allow one to be available at #77,

edo783 04-18-2009 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 10467)
If we don't get a Moreno or Brown early, I am starting to think that there is really 3 guys to target afterwards. Andre Brown, Shonn Greene, or Javarris Williams. Brown and Greene might have to be 2nd round targets, only a miracle would allow one to be available at #77,

That is the way I read it also. I think/hope we go Mathews/A. brown/Sidbury in the first three. Then take the best FS left and then a SS with the 2 4s. Then an OC, then a Guard and then finish with the BPA. If it happened to fall that way I would be one happy camper.

Roy P 04-18-2009 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edo783 (Post 10469)
That is the way I read it also. I think/hope we go Mathews/A. brown/Sidbury in the first three. Then take the best FS left and then a SS with the 2 4s. Then an OC, then a Guard and then finish with the BPA. If it happened to fall that way I would be one happy camper.

Just to display it out without any trade downs....

15. LB Clay Matthews USC
46. RB Andre Brown NC State
77. DE Lawrence Sidbury Richmond (I'm hopeful for Cody Brown here)
112. S David Bruton Notre Dame
122. S Chris Clemons Clemson
152. OC A.Q. Shipley Penn St
188. OG Anthony Parker Tennessee
223. CB Don Carey Norfolk State

edo783 04-18-2009 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 10471)
Just to display it out without any trade downs....

15. LB Clay Matthews USC
46. RB Andre Brown NC State
77. DE Lawrence Sidbury Richmond (I'm hopeful for Cody Brown here)
112. S David Bruton Notre Dame
122. S Chris Clemons Clemson
152. OC A.Q. Shipley Penn St
188. OG Anthony Parker Tennessee
223. CB Don Carey Norfolk State


OK, let's phone that order in and just kick back. The work is done! That would be one heck of a draft IMO.

Blitzwood 04-19-2009 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 10460)
I don't need sub 4.5 either, but sub 4.6 is a must for me.

Are you talking about Javarris Williams in the 2nd or 3rd round?

No, I would take J.W. with one of the 4th rounders at the soonest.

This is what I would do with no trades, not what I think the Texans will do:

15. M. Jenkins CB/FS
46. Eric Woods OL
77. Jason Williams OLB
112. Terrence Knighton DT
122. Kyle Moore DE
152. James Davis RB
188. Lee Robinson OLB/ILB
223. Herb Donaldson RB/FB

bckey 04-19-2009 10:30 AM

My late round/fa sleeper RB is Frank Summers from UNLV.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009...-unlv-pro-day/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz2iGgUrQpI

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...2009&genpos=FB

http://draftzoo.com/2009/03/frank-summers-interview/

Roy P 04-19-2009 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 10451)

My super duper deepity deep dark horse is Tyler Roehl from North Dakota State. He's a FB/HB/RB hybrid. I call him a shorter Brian Leonard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GNk8EDKFCw&NR=1

263 yards vs. Minnesota

I'll see your 30 reps and raise you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k7cGNeMHQA

bckey 04-19-2009 05:15 PM

OK. I'll go all in!

Roy P 04-19-2009 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by painekiller (Post 10436)
I am almost thinking I would make that offer to Indy, and grab the Donald at 27.

I don't know if you have seen this, but it's priceless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRCKz...eature=related

Watch what he does to Clint Sintim at 0:51 of this thing.

Then at 1:05 Sintim has him wrapped up in the backfield, oh no he didn't.

It's like when I was a little kid and watched Tony Dorsett at Pittsburgh. Somebody is going to be happy to have this guy on draft day.

painekiller 04-21-2009 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy P (Post 10503)
I don't know if you have seen this, but it's priceless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRCKz...eature=related

Watch what he does to Clint Sintim at 0:51 of this thing.

Then at 1:05 Sintim has him wrapped up in the backfield, oh no he didn't.

It's like when I was a little kid and watched Tony Dorsett at Pittsburgh. Somebody is going to be happy to have this guy on draft day.

And I am hoping it's not Indy, would not mind him going to the Cards.

TexanJedi 04-21-2009 02:47 PM

I would like Andre Brown if we can get him in round 3, not as much in round 2. Otherwise I would rather wait for Glen Coffee in the 4th or 5th.

nero THE zero 04-21-2009 02:54 PM

If we're talking mid-rounders, and that excludes A. Brown, D. Brown, S. Greene, K. Moreno, and C. Wells, my preferences are:

1. C. Peerman
2. R. Jennings
3. G. Coffee

But, I would rather take Moreno in the first or Brown in the last first/second (via trade down, not up.) In fact, I'd prefer to trade out of the first round completely for a future first, though that's a different discussion for a different day.

And, FWIW, here are LZ's positional rankings:
Quote:

Here are my ratings on the offensive side of the ball for the top ten players per position. Keep in mind these ratings reflect my opinion of their draft grade rather than where I think they will be drafted or what order they will be drafted in. This is the order I think they should be drafted in.
Quote:

Running Backs
1. Knowshon Moreno - Georgia - Top 15
2. Chris "Beanie" Wells - Ohio State - 1st
3. Donald Brown - UConn - 2nd
4. Shonn Green - Iowa - 2nd
5. Rashad Jennings - Liberty - 2nd/3rd
6. LeSean McCoy - Pitt - 2nd/3rd
7. Andre Brown - NC State - 3rd
8. Javon Ringer - Michigan State - 3rd/4th
9. Cedric Peerman - Virginia - 3rd/4th
10. Glen Coffee - Alabama - 4th

Overview: This is a very respectable group of running backs with the strength being in rounds 2-4. Moreno is as good as Cadillac Williams when he came out so I think he's going to be a good value pick if he goes outside of the top 10. As for Wells, all the talent in the world is there, but can he stay healthy? Green looked great all season, but my biggest concerns on him are whether he is a one-year wonder and whether he has enough speed to get to the corner against faster NFL defenses. Donald Brown's good toughness and great balance and he would be a terrific value early in the 2nd. Scouts have said that LeSean McCoy has the ability to be the next Reggie Bush but with better skills as a running back. I know Javon Ringer doesn't have the size/speed that teams covet, but I wouldn't be so quick to overlook his productivity during his stay at Michigan State. He's a tougher runner than maybe some give him credit for.

Most Overrated - Andre Brown, N.C. State: I don't really consider Brown to be overrated, but I think he's a 3rd-rounder and not a 2nd where he'll be drafted. To me, it looks like he is shooting up the draft boards based more on his postseason measurements than his film. James Davis from Clemson would probably be the most overrated RB in the draft in the truest sense of the world

Possible Steal - Chris Ogbonnaya, Texas: He'll be drafted late if he is drafted at all, but there are several things working in his favor. While his top-end speed is limited and he's not the shiftiest back, his ability to play in zone schemes will create opportunities for him. He has terrific hands out of the backfield and is a willing pass protector. He's also not afraid to put his helmet done and get physical if need be. He could be a better pro than college player.


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