A few things. (1) Dunta was far better than mediocre in 2007 and before. (2) We had no choice but to pay Dunta while he was hurt. It wasn't like we did it out of the goodness of our heart. (3) He is our best option at CB if healthy and would be one of our 2 best this year even if he doesn't make it all the back.

Make him play for the franchise tag and buy yourself a year in the negotiations to see if he can still play like he did pre-injury. If he doesn't like it he will sit out and not get paid and hurt his own value for other teams.

So I have no problem with Dunta trying to get paid (especially since he is looking at what might be his one big payday in a league heavily slanted to the owners), and I have no problem with the Texans not paying a guy coming off of a serious injury. Lets just let it play out. We haven't even hit training camp yet.

What you are saying is so clear that for the life of me I can't understand why anyone sees it any other way. Giving a big time contract to a player who may never again be more than average is a huge risk. In a sport without a cap it might be different, but in football every bad contract hurts the team.

Dunta was better than mediocre in 2007, but his best year by far was his rookie year when he exceeded expectations for a rookie corner. He hasn't played at that same level since then. I blame a lot of it on scheme...but that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't performed as well as I had hoped he had.

I have zero problem with him for trying to maximize his money right now. I think he's taking the negotiations a little too personnel, but I guess it's hard not too sometimes. I'm not a fan of some of the comments he made publicly either. I think it should be handled a different way, but it's his contract not mine. If he were to ask me for my advice I would tell him that he should have taken the 23 Mill deal...if that's what he really got offered. It's entirely possible that the the Texans slipped a big roster bonus on the back end of the contract that they included in the gauranteed money when it "accidentally" got leaked to the media. Pure speculation, but if they did something like that then Dunta is smart enough to know that he would be released before ever seeing that big bonus. He would probably also feel like the Texans were just trying to make him look. You never know.

He's very aware of how fragile an NFL career is. This is probably his one shot at a really big deal. Very few players get a shot at more than 1 big free agent deal. Holdouts happen all the time, we've just had very few players of a high enough caliber for it to be an issue. Every year guys get included on the "potential" free agents list and everyone starts drooling over who they might be able to sign next year. Most of the marquee names end up staying with their team. We don't know what's being said behind closed doors, and that's why I'm just can't get too worked up over this. He's here this year for sure unless something wild happens. Beyond that there's nothing to do but wait and see.

IMO, Dunta WAS a close to elite run stopper, but just slightly above average in pass coverage. The ONLY time he showed well was his rookie year. Last year he was less than average in both realms and was beaten badly in pass coverage. Will he be better this year....most likely, but certainly not at top 5 level as he was NEVER there to start with.

And I can't understand why anyone can't see Dunta already turned down a big pay day (23 million guaranteed) with the Texans and doesn't want to play here. Unless you think he deserves more than that I don't see what he can possibly hold out for.

What's your point?

We use the franchise tag to wait and see. What better option do you think we have?

I agree. You have to use the franchise tag. My point is some people keep thinking Dunta is waiting for the right offer from the Texans and they will come to an agreement and I'm saying it has come and gone. The Texans aren't going to up their offer of 23 million guaranteed. Letting it play out only favors the Texans. Dunta has already rejected their max offer. If he was smart he would appologize to the f/o and the fans and ask if the deal is still on the table and then sign it. It was ignorant for him to think the Texans would just let him walk regardless if R Smith said it or not. Grow up, shut up and play Dunta. Be thankful you were able to come back from such a devastating injury and still have a chance to get paid. Take the money and quit whining.

At this point I am assuming we rent him with the Franchise tag and then move him before the 2010 draft (what we get depends on how he plays). I assume he will show up right before the regular season to avoid missing game checks, and will play hard to improve his value for other teams.

The issue with letting him come in at the start of the season and not attending TC and be in the pre-season games, is that we have installed a defense that has some new wrinkles to it. All the schemes will be set with the guys who are in camp. He will basically be a guy who doesn't know it and it will take several weeks for him to get up to speed, not to mention in game day condition and have the rapport with his team mates. I doubt he will reach effectiveness (which IMO is with greatly diminished skill set) before week 3, so in essence we are disrupting what we are building for a guy who wont be effective for 20% of the season and very likely wont be here next year for continuity and paying him 9.9 million for it. For some reason, that doesn't seem very sensible to me.

Even assuming everything goes as bad as you say, tell me what the alternatives at CB are.

Currently on the roster are Jaques Reeves, Fred Bennett (who played worse than the gimpy Dunta of last year), Molden (who never saw the field and was burried behind a terrible group of CBs), and low round rookies with no experience.

Even if Dunta is not the dunta of old, and even if he comes in late and does not play until week 3, he is still one of our two best CBs. This is all that matters. Playing him gives the Texans a better chance to win than not playing him. So use him for what he's worth next year.

Don't underestimate the value of Young Gibbs over our old D-Backs coach.

Exactly, and Bennett isn't chopped liver and he is a better bet than Dunta to play well particularly in pass coverage, which if I'm not mistaken is the key role for a CB.

I think this is completely wrong.

The stats won't show it (they sometimes don't for good corners that are not challenged as much as their teammate on the other side), but imo Robinson was probably having the best year of his career in 2007 before the injury. Everyone remembers how much of an impact he made as a rookie because expectations were low and he was challenged more often (especially initially as a still-useful Aaron Glenn played the other corner), but Robinson was having a Pro Bowl-caliber season in 2007 before he went down. But don't take my word for it - - per this chron article, "Robinson was playing at what Kubiak considered a Pro Bowl level before the injury".

We were lucky to have Fred Bennett step in as a rookie after the injury, but Bennett's rookie status and the lowered fan expectations that come with it might be also contributing to this selective memory loss about Robinson's quality of play two years ago.

All that said, however, it doesn't really make the current situation any clearer. At this point, I'm sorta feeling like what barrett says, that we may be witnessing Robinson's final year as a Texan in 2009 before he moves elsewhere next year. I still have hope though that a compromise is achieved on a new contract within the first week of so of training camp. I think it's entirely possible.

Regardless of whether a new agreement is reached, the window to trade Robinson has most likely passed until next Feb/Mar imo. If the Texans were going to move him in 2009, they probably would have done it before the draft.

Bennett was worse than chopped liver last year. He took a GIANT step backwards and was benched even before Dunta came back. He made a small recovery towards the end of the season and attributed it to Dunta's return.

I hope that is hyperbole, because that statement, just like your stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB, is a load of crap.

I never took a stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB. Try to find one. Instead I took a stance that I wouldn't draft a SLB in round 1 because I don't think it's a valued position in the 4-3. Obviously (and luckily for all of us), Rick Smith currently runs the Texans while I sit and watch games on my couch. I still don't like the Cushing pick, but none of that applies to Fred Bennett.

Now do you think Bennett played well last year? Before you answer, remember that he was benched in favor of PETEY FAGGINS.

You are correct I misstated your position on SLB, but as you say it is lucky that professionals run the organization, because Bennett certainly was better than chopped liver, despite the fact that he was benched, and if you had your way he wouldn't be out there.

I think he played well at times, and not so well at times. His performance was not any worse than the rest of our CBs, and the performance of that unit, was largely a function of the lack of pressure.

Even the best CB looks like crap when a QB has all day to throw. Champ Bailey looked like crap last year too.

I usually would think it was a mistake to take an SLB in the first, but in this case it makes more sense than usual. Traditional first round picks: LT, QB, WR, DE, CB, and MLB are pretty well represented on the Texans. I think we probably needed a SS and a DT more than an SLB, but SS is not normally a position you go for in the first, and I guess the Texans didn't see a DT they liked. Besides, we've already spent enough first rounders on DTs. The Texans took Cushing over Mathews not because his position is more important, but because they clearly think he's the better player. Time will tell whether he is or not. If both players turn out to be equally good, then Weakside should have been our pick IMO.

Again, I never said Bennett should not be here. I said we need Dunta to play this year because it will help us win games. A response was made that Bennett wasn't chopped liver and we'd be ok without Dunta.

I feel this is false and that Bennett followed up a very good rookie campaign with a terrible second season. He was so bad he was benched in favor of the oft-maligned Petey Faggins (and rightly so). At the end of the year he started to play a little better, but only after Dunta (a fellow gamecock and mentor to Bennett) returned to the field.

I remain hopeful Bennett will become what he showed the potential to be during his rookie season. But at this point I feel it would be foolish to count on Bennett as a starting NFL CB when we have other options (like DR).

As for Cushing (who is not related to this conersation at all). I would not pick a SLB in round 1, but I place great value in what Smith and Kubiak believe. And I can easily withhold my own flawed judgement until I see results on the field to show what kind of pick this was. Especially since I do not follow the draft or College football as deeply as many on this site (and certainly not anything like an NFL GM).

We'll agree that I hope Bennett is better this year, but I also don't think he was as bad as you think.

I wanted to stay out of this, but this has clearly gone on too long. If this argument is going to continue, I'm gonna weigh in too. My opinion sits pretty much squarely in the middle between jp and barrett. Are we better with dunta? sure. Is our secondary decimated without him? not by any stretch of the imagination. as JP already said, the biggest reason our secondary looked so bad (apart from reeves' patent refusal to EVER turn his head to look for the ball) was because of our pass rush, which should be markedly improved this year, by both the new scheme (which will hopefully use our dt's strengths, which are primarily in the getting up field department) and the addition of connor barwin and antonio smith. While Bennett was bad last year, he showed improvement down the stretch, and is too talented and committed an individual to go pbust on us. A good front 7 will cover a myriad of secondary issues, and I now think we have one of the better front 7's in the league.

So back on point. Would I like to have dunta as a career texan? absolutely. Is that a likely outcome to this situation? I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm thinking no. I really get the sense that dunta's not so much offended that we f-tagged him, but that we didn't just hand him namdi asomugha's contract with his name on it, despite that horrific injury. Apparently, the fact that he came back early and the texans (with the no. 3 ranked offense in the league) won games after his return cancel out the fact that he allowed a 67% completion percentage to quarterbacks who threw at him. Honestly, I was surprised when I heard mcclain's report that he was offered chris gamble money. The only logic I can fathom is that his stance is "I was drafted higher than him, therefore I deserve more money" which is flawed from the beginning. With or without dunta, we're still a better team than we were last year. And, IMO, the titans, colts, and to a lesser extent the jags, are weaker than they were last year, so I won't cry if dunta doesn't show up into the season. He really oughta know that a holdout until week 1 won't help him in his audition for other teams now that we've got a new dc.

Also, while I personally liked matthews better than cushing, if for no other reason than he ran the same 10 yard split as darius heyward-bay at the combine, slb was a far greater need than wlb. Adibi and Diles can both play, when healthy, and the addition of cato june certainly doesn't hurt that situation. our front 7 is f-ing formidable, and that's a first for our franchise. That will necessarily improve the secondary, with or without dunta.

I generally agree with what SBB said....honestly don't really care anymore, I loved the way Dunta played the game pre-injury and would love to see it return for years. But if he has developed some grudge against the Texans we can do without.

I get the feeling the team now figures he'll eventually sign on for the 10 mil and one of two things will happen:

1. He'll return to form and fetch a better value in trade

or

2. He'll flame out and we'll be glad we didn't invest 23 mil (or whatever he was offered)

Now if somebody goes down in camp and we get a great deal for Dunta to fill in...maybe a trade happens this summer ala champ for portis

We'll see, but i no longer feel like it would be a catastrophic loss...

In order to fetch anything in a trade we are going to have to resign Daniels or Ryans, so that we can F-tag Dunta.

Negotiations have apparently not improved. Anyone catch this report live? Here is PFT's take:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ill-far-apart/

I hate to say it, but I am of the notion now that a trade maybe the best option. Late in trading camp when injuries have crept in.

PFT showed an option where the Texans just flat cut him.

What if Bennett & Reeves look solid in preseason and Molden and Quinn have solid camps. Do you mess with the Chemistry and shuffle the guys who have been working there rears off? I might be getting to the point where I say bye bye.

I'll have a major problem with Dunta if he continues the holdout through training camp. I understand the OTA holdout as the team still has time to put a long-term package together, and may be swayed by your non-participation to up the ante.

After July 15th has passed, skipping training camp only serves to hurt your team and yourself for the upcoming season. The team can't sign you to any contract until the season is over, so holding out from training camp does nothing from a negotiation standpoint. This is particularly relevant when a new secondary coach has joined the staff. You're not learning the new techniques and scheme, and you're not giving the new DC a chance to see what you bring to the table as he formulates his season long plan.

Part of what Dunta brings to the table is his leadership over the entire defense, but if he's willing to trade training camp for nothing more than a few extra weeks of vacation that leadership quality takes a major hit. So listen up Dunta, accept that you didn't get your long term deal, cash your 9.5m contract, and get your butt out on the field with all of your lower paid teammates.

I still think this would be a bad move. As I have said earlier, I don't have a problem trading him if you can get good value in return and you do it at the best time for the team. Trading him at the beginning of the season doesn't do the texans any good. If they are going to do that, they should have traded him before the draft so they would have new players this season. No need to do anything until after the season now.

Dunta will be on the field this year, and should be playing his best ball. He will be playing for a contract, even if it isn't with the texans. If he does play well this year that will only help the texans' position in trading him after the season if it comes to that.

All this being said, if someone were to offer some kind of crazy deal for Dunta before the season out of desperation then that would change my stance. It would have to be big though, in my opinion, something crazy like two, first rounders AND a second or third this year.

Nice thought but you can not trade a player who is not under contract. And Dunta will not be under contract after the season is over. In fact right now the team can not discuss trades for Dunta until he signs his offer sheet.

Are you serious? We will franchise Dunta next year and he will be in the exact same position, so having him under contract is no issue.

As for talking to other teams now, we don't have to. His agent does. They look for a team willing to re-work his deal, and then come to us when they find one (exactly like we tried with Orlando Pace). Then terms of a trade are worked out. He signs his contract with us, is traded, and signs the new extension with his new team. It is very simple and fairly common.

Guys get traded who are franchised all the time, and many of them are yet to sign their offer sheet.

Meh. He's still risking injury without a long term deal if he comes back early. I wouldn't hold that against him.

But, the writing's on the wall. He won't be a Texan after this season. I just hope we trade him in order to get some value back in return; a late 3rd round compensatory pick in a couple of years would not suffice. So, be it this preseason, during the season, or after the season, I hope we deal him for a pick.

OK then, if that's how it works what if any implications are there of him signing vs not signing the Texans' tender offer on or before 7/15/'09 ?
BTW I don't see D-Rob fetching more than a second rounder at this time without a real "stress-test" this Fall ?

Barrett is correct. Also, if the texans tag dunta after the season another team could still sign him, they would just have to give up 2 first round picks for him if the texans don't match the offer or work out a different trade deal . . .at least that is how it works if my memory is correct.

I don't see him getting more than a second rounder anyway....It would have been tough to get a second for him pre-injury. Not that he's a bad player, but teams don't give up early draft picks that easily...and casserly isn't currently a GM anywhere.

I believe 7/15 is just his last chance to sign an extension with the Texans. After that he can only sign his tender. But that doesn't affect the new deal that would have to come with any team that trades for him.

That is what people are forgetting who want to trade him. He is only going to agree to a trade if the team he is going to is willing to give him the new deal he is looking for. And nobody will trade for him without a new deal worked out ahead of time. So it's not like we can just unload him for a draft pick. We have to find a team willing to pay him what he wants AND give us what we want. It's not likely to happen.

I wouldn't be so certain of that. More than a few recent franchisees have been able to hold out on signing their franchise tender until the team made a contractual agreement not to franchise them again the following year. At this point, its not a certainty that franchising him again would be an option.

true, but most of them have had that agreement based on performance clauses, ie albert haynesworth's trip to the probowl. I would gladly give dunta that same stipulation, as I don't think he'll get there, at least not this season.

But in all those cases the team needed the player on the field more than the player needed it. In essence it was a one year team rental.

In Dunta's case I don't think they applied the tag because they needed to keep him. They applied it because they were unwilling to let him walk in FA with no recompense. Smith already showed he is willing to upset Dunta and use the tag. I'd be shocked if their is a deal to not use it again. Right now we have all the leverage. We seem willing to go forward with him unsigned but tagged. If he doesn't play he hurts himself far more than he hurts us.

He will almost certainly sign with us and play this year at some point. If there was a team willing to give him a new deal and trade for him, then it would have happened already.

Dunta has been offered a F-tag, but that means zip if he doesn't sign it. We can't trade him until he does and that would be the same next year as well. So, if he doesn't sign it until the start of the season, are you willing to pay a guy 9.9 million who is coming off a bad injury, who showed last year he was horrible in coverage and when he does come back it would be at least game 3-4 before he is up to speed and able to play the new defense? IMO, it was way over paying him at 9.9 million when he was going to play a 16 game schedule AFTER a TC of learning and getting back into football shape, but to pay what is likely a VERY marginal CB 9.9 million for 2/3 - 3/4 of a season is ridiculous. IMO, if two weeks before the start of the season he hasn't signed, pull the F-tag and save the money rather than just flushing it down the drain on someone who is yet to show he is back from injury and likely would be a divisive factor in the locker room. Just save the money and find some other players that could provide some depth elsewhere.

So let's assume Dunta doesn't sign his F-tagged contract? He won't get paid will he? And what is with the 7-15 deadline, will he be able to sign with some other team after that, or do we still have his rights?

IIRC if we pull the offer, then he is an unrestricted FA. Funny thing is in the middle of training camp not to many teams have $9M of cap money available.

I am with edo, but i also want to add the guys who are here have to be doing the job well enough that we would not miss Dunta. It is stupid to cut a player who is better then the ones you are starting.