Saw that...my question is, knowing this why wouldn't OD sign the offer before that date? Does he lose the ability to negotiate a long term deal once he signs the tender? I just don't see any reason why he wouldn't sign it knowing it could cost him 2+ million. I don't know if the Texans would take advantage of the option to reduce the tender, but there's no business reason not to other than hurting OD's feelings. I'm sure Owen recognizes, or at least hope he does, the business aspects of it.

I hope they work it out to satisfaction of both sides. no holdouts please. Does seem OD has earned a raise to atleast get into top 15 if not top 10 TE salaries sometime soon.

I'm guessing he recognizes it. I'm going to also guess that there's some amount of good faith negotiating going on behind the scences (gaspshock! might our local media be missing the scent of this story?? egads! :rolleyes:)

Daniels has been in attendance through OTAs from all I can infer. And afaik, there is no reason why he couldn't still try to negotiate a long-term deal after signing the tender.

Texans tight end Owen Daniels has become the second player to skip organized team activities this offseason because of a contract dispute with the franchise's front office.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6466951.html

Yeah, yeah. The Texans should be counting their lucky stars OD showed up at all without a contract.

Fans have been kinda harsh on Dunta's situation when I'm not really sure I believe all that's been reported contractually in the first place. Now Owen's out, and until I know more about what the Texans REALLY have and have not offered, I refuse to get upset at either Dunta or Owen.

Don't fault the player in either case here. Fault the system if anything. And don't forget your healthy sense of skepticism on anything you read about these things in the media.

Yes, its the long offseason so we have to talk about something. From what I've heard, I think the offer to OD is low so far. Maybe been to harsh on the guys skipping OTA, but they do make a lot of money for a game, so hard to feel to sorry for these guys.

Yeah, you either feel sorry for the millionaire players or the billionaire ownership... so I don't feel sorry for either.

I will say though that players have a VERY small window in which to make the big buxxx, and Daniels has just entered that window (as has Robinson). I think that's why the longer I've been at this, the more I tend to at least sympathize with the player's "plight" over the team's/ownership's. The fan in us wants everyone on the field, but this is business, and I doubt most of us regular joe's would risk life and limb for our jobs without vying for the best compensation we could, especially if our window to get PAID was anywhere near as small as it is for an NFL player.

I am starting to get a little concerned over how they are handling negotiations. We no have 3 key players (robinson, daniels, and ryans) who want contracts, two of whom are now holding out. I am sure there are two sides to this story, but I don't like the way it is playing out.

I agree, but it is also important to look at all three individually, at least for now, since each is in a different situation. And it is important to remember that the current CBA situation is impacting all three of them, too.

Ryans is currently under contract, which immediately makes him different from Dunta and Owen. He would be a true/classic holdout if he failed to show for mandatory workouts. His situation is aggravated in that he'll be a RFA without a new CBA, so he's feeling a little screwed by the circumstances (and placing those feelings onto the GM), not to mention he feels as though he has already outperformed his rookie contract.

Daniels is an RFA that deserves a real contract. From reports it sounds like his team hasn't even been discussing #s yet with the Texans. Just sort of a slap in the face since the Texans already extended another RFA, Joel Dreesen, who ohbytheway is Daniels' backup. Without a new CBA though, instead of riding out 2009 as a RFA, he still wouldn't be a UFA next year.

Dunta's situation is a more standard F-tag one, but his is complicated by his significant injury in 2007. Much more uncertainty here than with other F-tags, so that both parties are at a standstill is predictable to me. I don't put a lot of faith into media reports re: Dunta's situation, and fans getting overly angry at Dunta are possibly jumping to conclusions. I think Dunta might just have to play 2009 as an F-tag, though I would still like him to sign long-term here.

I normally tune out all talk of contract negotions because we fans never actually know what is really going on behind the scenes anyway. I have learned from long experience that agents try their best to whip up public sentiment against a team as a way to pressure a team for more money. That is a given. What is also a given is that as part of their tactics agents either lie about the negotiations or are very vague in their details. I refuse to be a part of their game.

As long as there is a cap in the NFL it will be very important for the Texans to spend their money very wisely and avoid overpaying players. That's Rick's job, and I intend to let him do it.

Owen missed day 12 of OTA's because he's unhappy over his contract status. Offered a one year $2.7M deal, He wants to lock in a longterm deal before the CBA expires in 2010. The Texans don't want to get hung into that until they find out how the wind is going to blow. So we quite naturally have holdouts. It will either work out for the players or the teams. We just have to wait and see which way the wind will blow.

You and me both. I'm surprised they let Demeco's or Dunta's contracts get to this point. And if they wanted to keep Owen it would've been a lot cheaper to sign him to an extension earlier too.

This isn't at all unusual. That doesn't mean behind closed doors that things aren't going poorly, but the fact the contract negotiations got to this point is no reason to think the Texans are handling things badly.

Dunta's injury kept them from doing anything last year. We knew Daniels was going to be a RFA this year so there was no rush to get anything done before this offseason. I'm sure they both would have liked to have gotten a deal done before now, but it's not unusual by any stretch. There trying to get an extension done with Demeco entering the final year of his contract. I would like to see it all resolved, but there is nothing out of the ordinary about this at all.

So Owen has signed his tender offer for the 2.9M. According to the chron.com, the Texans made Daniels a new offer this week that would have made him the #2 highest paid TE.

What that means is not clear, was it total money, guaranteed money, 1st 3 years? No sure, but Daniels did not accept it. His agents will continue to try to work out a long term deal.

OD is quickly entering DRob territory, IMO. The guy thinks he's worth way more than he is. How about you stop fumbling at critical times then come back and talk, OD?? Anyone wondering why they signed Dreessen and drafted two TE's now?

OD signs tender
 

If I heard right, on ABC 13 news tonight OD signed tender. I guess that is very good for him and the team. Wonder if he is one of the 30 who don't have to practice, just workout, I guess so.

I don't like this one bit. Sure, I'm definitely pleased that the tender's been signed, but regardless of who's got the right information, be it florio or mcclain, I don't understand how you can argue with that money, especially with the state of the CBA. I hope the Texans don't negotiate further, as far as the per-year average goes. To be perfectly honest, if you're going to turn down top 5 money at your position, you're a damn fool, and you deserve whatever negative things come of it. I would laugh my ass off if neither dunta nor owen got their deals done, both become/remain RFA's with the burning of the old CBA, and they lose a good 7 million each in the process, because their agents are f*cking stupid. according to last year's numbers, owen was, among TE's: 5th in receptions, 3rd in yards, 5th in ypc (min 40 receptions), 6th in 1st down % (same min), and tied for 3rd in fumbles. sounds like 4th highest paid TE in the sport is right where he should be. Get your head out of your ass and play some football.

Update from Owen via Facebook a little over an hour ago seems to counter the PFT story:
If the Texans really did offer what these reports suggest, and assuming there is nothing funny with the per year averages (i.e. backloading the "guarantees" with some huge roster bonus in 2011 or something), then I'd think REAL hard before turning down the next offer if I were Daniels.

I hate commenting on this though because we don't know what's really happening with these negotiations. If you think you know just because you saw it reported on the chron or somewhere else, then in reality you only know an angle of it filtered through the lens of someone who may or may not trust and understand the info him/herself.

Just sayin'. I think I've said this a bunch already, but I am still skeptical that the Texans really had that huge offer to Dunta on the table. I could be wrong of course, but Dunta's agent has been a little quiet on the terms and we all know already that Rick Smith and the Texans know how to use the chron as their mouthpiece when they want to.

But if the reports are true, then these guys should sign. But we don't know all the facts other than that the teams and not the players hold all the cards in both of these negotiations.

Back to Daniels... unless he knows that a new CBA is coming, then he needs to know that he's screwed. That's why I would sign any legit offer I can get, and a top 3-5 offer is legit. Which is different than Dunta... he'll get almost $10mm as a f-tag w/o a deal vs. the $2mm or so OD gets with just his tender. Big difference, plus the situation is the same in 2010 without a CBA with Dunta as potential UFA, Daniels as RFA.

That quote from OD makes me breathe a bit easier. I hope they can get him and Demeco done before camp opens. Lance Z this AM said that OD and Dunta are represented by the same firm, so maybe...maybe I am looking for the silver lining that if they can get OD taken care of, that might make it a little easier for Dunta to get a deal done. With Demeco canning his agent that says he wants to get a deal done.

Hopefully both sides in all three cases understand the art of the negotiation and can come to reasonable concessions to make the deals happen.

Daniels skipped out on the first day of the mandatory mini-camp.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/s...e=NFLHeadlines

Not surprised he isn't there, at least not until a new contract is signed.

As I was saying earlier today...The chron has an updated article on the situation, this time with quotes from Daniels' agent:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...t/6479538.html

So Daniels' camp is disclaiming ownership of the contract details link, and now later in that chron link above Smith says he wants to keep negotiations private. Soooo... typical negotiation stuff, meaning as fans we should be careful to jump to conclusions as long as both sides remain open to negotiation.

And if you want more blah blah on this, Kuharsky has a post at the worldwide.

I'm very skeptical of anything regarding contract amount rumors reported by the chron. Especially since Mcclain has responded to an email of mine about the cap that he didn't really understand how it all worked and that was impossible for someone not in the business to really understand it. I sent him here to Keith's cap page and told him that if a guy who runs a message board in his spare time can take the time to read the CBA and keep up with a cap page that maybe since his job is to cover the NFL he should at least put forth a little effort and try to figure it out. He didn't respond, but I doubt he was amused.

My point is that the chron either parrots what the team tells them just on their word, or is told what the contract offer actually is and doesn't understand it enough to give an accurate picture of what the offer really is.

Even Richard Justice doesn't believe what McClain reports in his own paper on Texans contract negotiations, so why should we?

it's just hard for Justice to trust anyone because we are all soooo much dumber than him.

See, now that is what makes me think the offer to Dunta is pretty darn close to what has been reported. The agent or someone would have come out and said it was horse hockey if in fact it wasn't reasonably close. Now in ODs case and possibly DRs, from what I gather, based on what I-Cak posted, they may all be squabbling over HOW the guaranteed money is to be paid. Keith would probably know this the best of anyone of us, but from what I can gather, a year or two ago the Texans moved to trying to make the contracts to where they paid the bulk of the guaranteed funds over a couple of years rather than in a big chunk at the start of the contract. I can see the agents wanting the big chunk up front so that if they get fired they at least got paid. I'm not sure if agent contracts work that way to where if they get fired they don't get paid the money in the next years or not. Actually from a player perspective it MIGHT be best for them to get it in multiple chunks from a tax perspective and naturally it is better for the team to spread and level the effects of the cash going out the door. The money is still guaranteed, just a different delivery pattern than what everyone is used to. From that sort of perspective, it does make it at least sort of comprehensible as to why two guys would be turning down deals that at least at first blush, are probably above where their play would/should place their value.

With so many reports about salary offers and salary demands flying around it is hard to belive any of it.

I will say that if OD really is holding out to be paid #1 instead of #4-6 as he should be getting then I would rather see him go. I dont know him personally, but he has never struck me as that kind of guy.

The fact that OD and Drob are both represented by the same agents, and all the crazyness that has gone on around these negotiations really concerns me that perhaps the agents are not on the up and up. If I remember correctly Demeco had the same guys and fired them to pick up the same agent as MW.

What if the Texans did offer #2 and the agents went to OD and gave him a different number, and the same with Drob. Is there anything the league could do after the fact to ensure that players and teams arent getting the run around from shady agents?

If, just if, any of the numbers that have come out for OD and Drob are true, and the Texans have said they offered top money to Drob, it may be possible that much of this is over structures rather than ammounts. We have a cap guru sitting in the Texans FO and it is possible that they are getting a little too cute with their contracts.

Yeah, much of the discussion probably has to do with bonus triggers, options, etc... Not only is the total amount of a contract a bogus number but often, so is the guaranteed money and even the years of the contract. They are so much more complicated than we make them out to be.

Dunta is repressented by Jason Chayut ,and Owen's agents are Alan Herman and David Butz.

Not sure where Lance came up with they have the same agent.

I think he said "Agent Group". Given that, these guys might be from the same firm, just different agents, but operating on some sort of group think. Not sure if that is it or not, just tossing it out there.

None of us have any idea on any of this. Nothing goes to the media on either side without an agenda. Not to mention the complexity of these contracts. I bet you could show most of us the actual contract, and we still wouldn't know what a guy was paid.

All these numbers are make believe and half the time are more about making an agent look good for his player than about the player getting paid. Its millions of dollars flying around with a dozen lawyers involved, and everybody is out to screw the next guy.

I think with any hold out you just have to wait and see. And even when the dust settles, we'll still probably never know half of the truth.

Yes, all three are agents from the firm Sportstars, Inc.

btw, Owen had this to say on Monday night via Facebook:

what that says to me is that the Texans are saying Winslows deal is unreasonable and we are not going to use that as a basis for a contract with Owen. O.D. is saying that's market value for a top TE right now.

You are probably right. While we may or may not think Winslow's deal is reasonable, Daniels' camp is right to reference it in the negotiations imo.

The Texans, however, still have the leverage here, especially in the absence of a new CBA. Daniels is a RFA, and there is little he can do to push his point assuming he'll cease his life as a holdout at some point. The question is just going to be how far apart the two parties are.

I dunno, but it seems stunning to me how far Owen Daniels and his agents got ahead of themselves on this deal and I honestly think his demands are totally unreasonable if not outragous if he's thinking anything like 20 M guaranteed. As I recall AJ only got about 15 M in guaranteed money on his new deal just a couple years ago ?
Daniels is a good TE, but not in the league of Gonzales or Gates or others and he appears to have a very inflated idea of his value to the team. If he got what these reports seem to imply he's after, just imagine what the Texans would have to cough up for DeMeco (not to mention Mario, Shaub, & others down the road). And of course they'd have to rewrite AJs deal.
And they just drafted 2 more TEs this year and Dressen isn't a bad backup for OD, while being at 260 quite a bit bigger than OD. Now that OD has signed
his tender, isn't he ripe as trade bait ? I'd consider trading him for a high 2nd, and be all over any 1st round pick.

I think all of this explains why we drafted Casey. It would appear we are hoping that Daniels can be replaced in what is a very TE friendly offense.

I don't mean to be blunt, but this is sorta the point: Welcome to 2009. The NFL's barometer for salaries increases significantly every year.

And lest we forget, Daniels was in the Pro Bowl last year. Actually, if memory serves, he had a pretty good game, too.

Yes, this interpretation worries me some. Are some fans damning him because they perceive the Texans as employers of a TE-friendly offense?

Daniels:
2008 70-862-2
2007 63-768-3
2006 34-352-5

Bronco Leading TEs:
2006 Tony Scheffler 18-286-4
2005 Jeb Putzier 37-481-0
2004 Jeb Putzier 36-572-2
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3
2001 Dwayne Carswell 34-299-4

You have to go back to Shannon Sharpe before you find numbers as good as Daniels'. And Sharpe's stood out among other Bronco TEs, i.e. Sharpe is the reason Sharpe was good, not just the TE-friendly offense. He was a Hall of Fame finalist this year.

Daniels has out-performed Putzier and Scheffler, the former who knew the offense better when he arrived in Houston three years ago, and the latter who was picked two rounds before Daniels. Maybe Daniels is the reason Daniels is good?

I am hopeful Casey is Daniels v2.0. Actually, I think Dreesen gets a chance before Casey. But no one knows for sure how good they can be and how soon.

btw, an extension or a re-worked contract isn't out of the question for Angry Dre, especially if his deal falls out of the top 10 or something.

He was Will Demps II, a guy who was a substitute on the Pro-Bowl team a couple years ago who didn't get to make the trip and was later cut by the Texans and is no longer even on the team. He may be out of football for all I know ?
As a sub Daniels got lucky when Gates or somebody cancelled out and he went to Hawaii and actually got in the game, caught a couple passes, even a TD pass. For being a lucky sub he's now worth 20 M guaranteed ?
On the other hand I say pay DeMeco, really whatever it takes because he's our best D player (sorry Mario), and the leader of the D ?

a pro bowl nod is almost as worthless as a golden glove. The biggest difference between Will and Owen is that many people thought Owen deserved to go before an injury got him there. With Will everyone was absolutely SHOCKED that Will was even in the conversation.

If you want to get mad at anyone get mad at Tampa Bay for giving Winslow all that money.

Denver is not Houston and the offenses are not identical. Certainly not in how we run them. The rushing stats bear that out.

Our offense is far more TE friendly than Denver's, perhaps by subtle differences in design, but certainly due to Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub.

Johnson is constantly bracketed with a safety which means our TEs are constantly working in space against LBs. There is no parallel to AJ in the Denver offense, so their TEs don't have the space or success ours have.

Additionally Schaub is characterized by mediocre arm strength, good accuracy, and getting the ball out quickly. All of these factors lend themselves to the TE getting the ball. Cutler (and even Plummer before him), are total opposites.

It is not relevant what Denver TEs do when deciding how hard it is/how much talent is needed for a Houston TE to succeed. I think Daniels is a smart and tough player who is in a perfect fit to make him look far better than he is. Not to mention that even with the good stats he was ineffective in the red zone last year, fumbled too much, and is not a great blocker. He is one of my favorite Texans, but he is nowhere near a top NFL TE.

This is exactly why I don't want Owen Daniels to get a huge contract. He's just not worth it. The guys you want to pay the most are the difference-makers. In other words, the guys who you are going to miss the most if they aren't in the game. I like Owen as a player, but it wouldn't make me really nervous if he was sitting out a game with an injury. I was never nervous when Putzier came in the game. Or even Dreesen. Any decent tight end is probably going to do pretty well in our offense. I would be far more worried if Schaub was sitting out. Or Andre Johnson. Or Slaton. Frankly, I would be more worried if Pitts was sitting out. Or Brown. Or Winston. Schaub waits a long time for routes to develop, something that benefits Owen's numbers a lot.