The Texans "A" list

[Arky]

I just read in McClain's blog a poster claiming that the Texans are an "extremely talented" team. Whelp, I'm not sure if I totally agree with that. I think there are several areas where they need upgrading and better depth (see TE's: who'd thunk they'd be down to two banged up TE's?). So, that led me to this scenario:

The NFL has just awarded a new franchise. As GM of this new franchise, you're allowed to pluck a few players from the other existing teams. You're allowed a few A, B, and C type players from each team. Players that grade out "A" are some of the best in the league - not necessarily Pro Bowlers but valuable contributors that perform highly week in and week out. Perhaps upper 15% at their position....

So, who on the Texans makes your "A" list?

Please list players from offense, defense and special teams. You can list "strong B's" or honorable mention if you wish...

(just an exercise here - please, humor me)

[Mike]

I thought of this over the weekend. Feel free to add, I went quicky through my mind. Mostly thought of the "A" list players over the weekend.

In the A's I would consider players who would start just on just about any team.
Andre Johnson, Mario Williams, Demeco Ryans, Brian Cushing, Owen Daniels

B's I would consider: Would start for more than 1/2 the teams
Eric Winston (Winston almost an A) Schaub, Pitts minus the injury, Antonio Smith.


C's - I would use this category for young players, lower salaries
Glover Quinn, Bernard Pollard, Zac Diles, Jacoby Jones (special teams, he is explosive and talented (although sometimes reckless), Kevin Walter, Slaton (the 2008 version), Bentley for his ST play, Barwin for his upside, DA for his low salary and slot third down role.

[HPF Bob]

A's = Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans. That's it.
B's = Mario Williams. That's it.
C's = Matt Schaub, Owen Daniels. That's it.

If I were a GM trying to start a new club, I'd also be interested in Cushing and Andre Davis. But the rest of the Texans would have to be on the waiver wire before I'd even consider adding them.

[EndZoneSeats]

Andre Davis, Bob?

He seems overpaid, is a relative non-factor as a receiver, and is a pedestrian KR.

[painekiller]

A's = Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans. That's it.
B's = Mario Williams. That's it.
C's = Matt Schaub, Owen Daniels. That's it..

A's = Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans, Brian Cushing.
B's = Mario Williams, Matt Schaub,Bernard Pollard.
C's = Eric Winston,Duane Brown,Owen Daniels,Vonta Leach,Steve Slaton, Chester Pitts.

Incompletes: Conner Barwin, James Casey,Antoine Caldwell,Tim Jamison,Jacoby Jones, Brice McCain.

I was wrong about Cushing, period. Pollard has been close to pro-bowl caliber.

[Joshua]

A's = Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans. That's it.
B's = Mario Williams. That's it.
C's = Matt Schaub, Owen Daniels. That's it.



Not to merge this thread with the Kubiak thread, but if this is it, Kubiak's record here is abysmal and he should be ran out of town on a rail. Only 5 guys? Plus, of those 5, the only "A" that Kubes brought in was Ryans. He gets credit for Mario and Matt, but it was widely reported that Daniels was a Casserly pick (I think even Kubiak admitted this?). Thus, Kubiak can only truly lay claim to Ryans, Mario and Schaub. Considering AJ is head and shoulders the best and Casserly was at least involved with drafting everyone else but Schaub, it could be argued that Casserly played a bigger role in getting our most talented players than Kubiak.

[Arky]

OK, thanks for the replies. I like that some of you went ahead and listed B's and C's and "upsiders". So, if you haven't replied, yet, please use this as refined criteria:

A's = excellent players
B's = very good players
C's = good players, upsiders

thanks.

[HPF Bob]

Not to merge this thread with the Kubiak thread, but if this is it, Kubiak's record here is abysmal and he should be ran out of town on a rail. Only 5 guys? Plus, of those 5, the only "A" that Kubes brought in was Ryans. He gets credit for Mario and Matt, but it was widely reported that Daniels was a Casserly pick (I think even Kubiak admitted this?). Thus, Kubiak can only truly lay claim to Ryans, Mario and Schaub. Considering AJ is head and shoulders the best and Casserly was at least involved with drafting everyone else but Schaub, it could be argued that Casserly played a bigger role in getting our most talented players than Kubiak.

You seem to forget we have a general manager. His name is Rick Smith. I believe he's somewhat responsible for the draft picks from 2007-2009 as well as Schaub.

[Joshua]

You seem to forget we have a general manager. His name is Rick Smith. I believe he's somewhat responsible for the draft picks from 2007-2009 as well as Schaub.

Thanks for the lesson in the Texans organizational structure. I had no idea.

The conventional wisdom for the last 4 years has been that this is Kubiak's team and he makes the majority of the decisions (including personnel and drafting). I suspect none of us here know the truth but, to my knowledge, that's been the general consensus. Agree?

All I was noting was that you did not list a single player from these 2007-09 drafts; i.e. the Smith/Kubiak era, as players anyone would want. If you truly believe this, I would think this would give you pause about Kubiak (and Smith).

[Arky]

OK, I guess no more feedback.

My own list is something like what Mike and PK offered. I might include Molden (if he ever gets healthy) and Dreesen for his long snapping skills + backup TE. There are players like Jeremiah Johnson on IR who we haven't really had a look at yet to consider, also.

So, if we go by that, Mike had 18 names. PK had 18 names. I have no debate with the players listed from those two lists. My own list would be about the same maybe +2 more. So, let's call all these guys "keepers". Then, out of a 53 man roster, we have approx. 18-20 keepers. Then that would leave about 33 JAG's (just a guy).

Now, I understand you can't have pro-bowlers at every position but I still see lots of room for improvement and depth with these Texans... While we've got some outright stars and solid, dependable players at some positions, there are areas where the team is still kinda weak, IMO....

Kubiak is in a no-win situation here: If you think he has plenty of talent, then you might think why isn't he getting the most out of it? If you think he has a dearth of talent, then you might think "dang, you've had 4 years, bud". ;)

Statistically, this might turn out to be the best Texan team ever (offensively and defensively) on paper. Unfortunately, it hasn't yet translated to the most important stat of all, W's and L's.....

[Nconroe]

I felt like adding a little more for some reason.

using Mike and PK's lists
In the A's I would consider players who would start just on just about any team.
Andre Johnson, Mario Williams, Demeco Ryans, Brian Cushing, Owen Daniels

B's I would consider: Would start for more than 1/2 the teams
Eric Winston (Winston almost an A) Schaub, Pitts minus the injury, Antonio Smith.


C's - I would use this category for young players, lower salaries
Glover Quinn, Bernard Pollard, Zac Diles, Jacoby Jones (special teams, he is explosive and talented (although sometimes reckless), Kevin Walter, Slaton (the 2008 version), Bentley for his ST play, Barwin for his upside, DA for his low salary and slot third down role.
Duane Brown,Vonta Leach,
Incompletes: James Casey,Antoine Caldwell,Tim Jamison, Brice McCain.
others mentioned: Andre Davis,

that is 25 of the 53 man roster, then I took a look at roster, seems there are several more who would likely be picked up as free agents if released by other teams. such as Xavier Adibi, Dominic Barber, Kris Brown, Shaun Cody, Arian Foster, Amobi Okeye, Jacque Reeves, Dunta Robinson, Matt Turk, Eugene Wilson, so that was get us to 35 keepers, but 18 positions of need and certainly many that could be upgraded.

I think that leaves you somewhere better than the middle, much better than 2-14 where we were 4 years ago, not yet, but almost in the playoffs, could be in playoffs with a few breaks which we know could have occurred.

[chuck]

A's = Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans, Brian Cushing.
B's = Mario Williams, Matt Schaub,Bernard Pollard.
C's = Eric Winston,Duane Brown,Owen Daniels,Vonta Leach,Steve Slaton, Chester Pitts.

Incompletes: Conner Barwin, James Casey,Antoine Caldwell,Tim Jamison,Jacoby Jones, Brice McCain.

I was wrong about Cushing, period. Pollard has been close to pro-bowl caliber.

I think you're right on here. I might add Quinn to the list of incompletes.

Does anyone want to take a shot at doing this exercise for, say, the Colts?

[barrett]

Going off of the top 15% listed in the beginning of the thread, that means that a guy is in the top 10 of his position (or top 5 for spots with one starter like QB, MLB, LT) etc...

I'll assume that 'B' doubles that to %30. 'C' to top half of starters.

A - top 15% of starters
Mario (not sure what you guys have seen to make you think there are 10 better DEs)
AJ
Daniels (I was wrong before the season when I said he was just a guy, he is as good at getting open as any TE, has good speed, and great hands, I can't name 5 better)
Demeco is a maybe, if he is top 5 it's just barely
I could see Andre Davis here as a special teams/all around guy because he does so many things well (deep threat, return man, great at punt coverage, willing blocker)

B - top third of starters
Cushing
Winston
Duane Brown
Slaton (if counted as a 3rd down back, if not he is not even a C)
schaub

C - top half of starters
Walter
Pollard (not sure what went wrong for him in KC but he is a very solid tackler and good enough in coverage for a SS)
Smith
Glover Quin is close
Dunta


I really don't think the problem is talent. If there is a personell problem it is that not one of these guys is an interior lineman on either side of the ball.

[painekiller]

I think you're right on here. I might add Quinn to the list of incompletes.

Does anyone want to take a shot at doing this exercise for, say, the Colts?

I forgot to add Quinn. Thank you.

A - Peyton, Wayne, Saturday (is getting old), Clark, Mathis, Freeney, Brackett, Sanders, Vinatieri ,Lilja, Diem
B- Garcon, Addai, Gonzalez, Baskett, Bullitt, Jackson, Brock


INC - Brown

10 rookies

23 players added to roster since SB win.

Now I may have the receivers too high, how much is Peyton improving the young WRs?

That is 17 players I rated an A or B, the Texans had only 12 players I rated A-B-C.

[painekiller]

B - top third of starters
Cushing


How many SAMs stay on the field and cover? His stats in pass defense are outstanding, and he is making a difference in the run game. Name 5 better SAMS?

BTW this is the guy I thought was a wasted pick.

[barrett]

How many SAMs stay on the field and cover? His stats in pass defense are outstanding, and he is making a difference in the run game. Name 5 better SAMS?

BTW this is the guy I thought was a wasted pick.

He could be top 5. I just wouldn't name him an 'A' player before he has completed a season. I think he performs at that level, but I think injury concerns are still only partially eliminated. Another season at this level and he is not just an 'A' but a first team All-Pro.

I also disliked this pick and happily admit I was totally wrong.

[painekiller]

He could be top 5. I just wouldn't name him an 'A' player before he has completed a season. I think he performs at that level, but I think injury concerns are still only partially eliminated. Another season at this level and he is not just an 'A' but a first team All-Pro.

I also disliked this pick and happily admit I was totally wrong.

Fair enough, the book is only in the 1st chapter, and I too am concerned about his long term health.

[Keith]

Fair enough, the book is only in the 1st chapter, and I too am concerned about his long term health.
Apparently, according to his mic'd up video against the Seahawks, if Cushing just drinks his milk, he'll be alight.

Milk. It does a linebacker good.

:p

[itssharif]

My A's would be:

QB- M.Schaub (top 5 QB in my book after P.Manning, T.Brady, P.Rivers, D.Brees - I know this is debatable but there is loads of potential in Schaub and this offense if it only did what it was suppose to do when the regime was originally brought in here and that is to RUN the ball effectively)

WR- A.Johnson (best WR in the league)

TE- O.Daniels (top 3 TE)

MLB- D.Ryans (top 5 MLB)

SLB- B.Cushing (top 3 SLB)

RE- M.Williams (top 5 DE)

B's would be:

SS- B.Pollard (leadership, hard hitting, and very mature)

CB- D.Robinson (physical CB who has only allowed 1 - 100 yard receiver against our D all year)

RT- E.Winston (solid pro)

RB- S.Slaton (say what you will about his sophomore slump but it was never his burst that was missing it was 3 very poor interior offensive linemen and when given the opportunity through the air he excelled, I expect a BIG TIME COMEBACK from him next year)

LG- C.Pitts (it was said before the injury that C.Pitts could start on virtually any other team's squad in the NFL, I personally think it's important to retain him)

C's would be:

PR- J.Jones (this guy is an absolute wild card as numbers showed he was a very efficient receiver this year and is always a dangerous returner whenever his hands are on the ball but the head on his shoulders and fumble concerns can be scary)

LT- D.Brown (in my eyes was in the B-league before our 4 game losing stretch where I feel many of his individual lost battles against his defender led to some critical turnovers and eventual losses for the team, still though the upside can not be denied as he's had a pretty solid overall year)

WLB- Z.Diles & X.Adibi (Z.Diles came back strong from injury and X.Adibi's potential due to his great speed still hasn't been seen yet)

CB-G.Quin (the opportunity to have a 2nd physical corner opposite Dunta with decent coverage skills has shown to help tremendously in our pass defense which quietly has been quite solid statistically all season)

TE- J.Casey (if he can work on blocking to get more playing time on the field his pass catching capabilities give him Owen Daniels like potential if he could just build up that chemistry with Schaub)

DT- A.Okoye (has been disruptive enough to rack up tackles for losses but needs to figure out ways to make more of an effect in the sacks department, I personally think a 2nd stud DT who would require double teams virtually every play next to Amobi would actually tap into the final remnants of Okoye's potential as a dual pass rushing and run stopping threat)

WR- D.Anderson (incredibly underrated slot WR who got open for Schaub in key moments of games and for key 3rd down conversions)

LE- C.Barwin (has potential of developing into a pass rushing specialist)


Aside from this I find everybody else on the Texans roster as either expendable or replaceable. The biggest name of my cuts here is LE-A.Smith. The reason for this is because though he is very solid in what he does for us and our team I don't see how if we ever found that big time NT how A.Smith's responsibilities couldn't be replaced (I say this because I assume a LE's responsibilities would become much easier with a NT that brings in penetration from the middle). With this upcoming DT rich draft and free agent class I don't see how the Texans don't fulfill this need. The other honoroble mention of which I find replaceable is Kevin Walter. I feel as if it's very realistic to find someone with his skill set in the open market. And with that said everyone else can walk and I'm sure we could find an adequate replacement for them.

[Arky]

................
RB- S.Slaton (say what you will about his sophomore slump but it was never his burst that was missing it was 3 very poor interior offensive linemen and when given the opportunity through the air he excelled, I expect a BIG TIME COMEBACK from him next year)...............

Like barrett alluded to, it's interesting that only a healthy Pitts gets mentioned in this thread when speaking of G-C-G. Myers might not be as bad as some of us think - he was dealing with injury early in the year. The coaches apparently like him - perhaps because he's the best they got. Having said that, I still think he could be upgraded and would make a good backup... Would love to see a 1st or 2nd round used on a Grade A center next year. Seems like all the dynasty type teams in the past had an all-world center (Steelers had Webster, etc.)...

----------------

Thinking about it a little more, I could easily add about 5 to 7 more names to my own list which would make 26-27 keepers or roughly half the roster.... And that suggests that half the roster could be upgraded. In building a team, I think you gotta get or try to get all the starters in the ABC categories. Doesn't mean they all have to be all-pro, a C is fine if he is solid and doing his job. So, according to this very informal survey, we have several starters that don't make the ABC list....

One other thing to note: this roster is definitely improved from where it was just a few years ago. Should the Texans change the HC for next year, this is not the kind of roster the incoming coach should blow up (ala what Payton did with the Saints). Just a few more pieces needed.....

[nero THE zero]

A's = Andre Johnson, Demeco Ryans. That's it.
B's = Mario Williams. That's it.
C's = Matt Schaub, Owen Daniels. That's it.

If I were a GM trying to start a new club, I'd also be interested in Cushing and Andre Davis. But the rest of the Texans would have to be on the waiver wire before I'd even consider adding them.

Wow, tough sell.

IMO, these are the Texans' "A" players, players that are competitive for a pro-bowl this, or most years:

Andre Johnson, Matt Schaub, Owen Daniels, Mario Williams, DeMeco Ryans, Brian Cushing, and Bernard Pollard.

I don't know how you'd define the "B" and "C" players, but out of our starting 22, I think the only players who aren't starters for most "good" teams in the NFL are Okoye, Cody, Meyers, and whoever the flavor of the week at RB is.

[edo783]

Tops in the league QB is a "C" player. MMmmm, the Russian judge is one tough scorer.

[Arky]

I'd say well done to all who participated on the "A" list. Since the pro-bowlers were announced, most all of you had the four Texans named as A's. Though probably Mario had a "B" year due to injury, he still gets in and that is fine. We've come to expect much more from him and I know next year, that most of us will expect a healthy Mario to step it up....

[Big Texas]

I know Mario's numbers have not been what we are used to. However, I think this year he added a tremendous piece to his skill set-run defense. Despite the lack of production in terms of sacks, he was consistently putting pressure on the opposing qbs. The problem was that the lack of an interior push made it easy for the opposition to just step up in the pocket. I think with increased productivity from the interior Mario will be picking be sitting at about 12-15 sacks next year. Or at least being doubled and giving opportunities for others to get sacks. Either way is fine with me.

[nero THE zero]

I know Mario's numbers have not been what we are used to. However, I think this year he added a tremendous piece to his skill set-run defense. Despite the lack of production in terms of sacks, he was consistently putting pressure on the opposing qbs. The problem was that the lack of an interior push made it easy for the opposition to just step up in the pocket. I think with increased productivity from the interior Mario will be picking be sitting at about 12-15 sacks next year. Or at least being doubled and giving opportunities for others to get sacks. Either way is fine with me.

He has also relied too heavily on his speed rush. I don't know if it was due to his injury, or if he's just more confident in his speed, but in a lot of plays that appeared to be almost-sacks or QB pressures, he was simply being run out of the play.

LZ has said that he feels that Mario hasn't really added any pass rush moves in his four years here, which might be indicative of his ability/willingness to learn given that he's had two DL coaches in the league.

Also, Anotonio Smith (I believe it was) specifically called out a/some underperforming first round linemen on the team who he says were not giving full effort.

Mario's been a good player thus far in the league. I was first to defend him and his plantar faciitis his rookie season. I was first to defend him against any criticism in subsequent seasons. And, I was first to stump for him for pro-bowl, all-pro, all-world, all-universe honors. But, we're starting to see a disturbing trend emerge here with him. Hopefully he bucks it and realizes his potential.

[NBT]

It seems Mario relies too much on the bullrush to the outside. He never seems to do the Dwight Freeney dance where he goes to the outside then spins inside to make the tackle. I don't know if this is primarily Mario not having enough moves, or it is a product of too conservative of a pass rush being put on the defensive lineman by the Dcoach, or by Kube.