Trade Dunta?

[Maninthebox]

I am not a rule book afficianado. I'm not even sure if I know how to spell afficianado. Is there some sort of trade deadline in the NFL and has that already passed? The question I have is would you be willing to trade DRob for the right price? In my book, the right price would be a 2010 1st round pick. I remember reading somewhere that the most we could hope for was a 2nd. I wouldn't trade him for that. But I would definitely consider a 1st rounder. The thought being that, although we have no elite DB talent, I think the talent is somewhat solid-probably the best we've had. And with an improved, aggressive front 7, solid could look pretty good. I don't like prima donnas. I've loved DRob up until this contract dispute. But now I question whether his loyalty lies more with his teammates or with his bank account. If the club is low-balling him, then I'd side with DRob. But if he turned down the money that has been reported, then he's simply greedy or his ego is larger than his brain.

So would you make the trade?

[Maninthebox]

PS Sorry if this has already been hashed and rehashed. I've been AWOL for a while.

It would be cool if we could dupe a crappy team into thinking they're a DB away from a playoff run and end up with a top 10 pick. Maybe then we could grab Taylor Mays and solve our safety problems that began with Matt Stevens and who was it? Kevin Williams?

[nero THE zero]

I wouldn't bat an eye.

[NBT]

Why not? Dunta has shown pretty much that he is not a team player but a guard house lawyer. He turned down a $23M bonus so he could get on his soapbox and cry about how he is being mistreated because the Texans put the F designator on him! He missed 6 games last year rehabbing the injury, and then when he did come back (albeit before he should have), he let 67% of the passes he defended to be completed. :mad:

[edo783]

As things currently stand we can't trade him. Until he signs his franchise offer there isn't a dang thing we can do with him, other than revoke the offer.....OR...someone signs him and pays us two first round picks (could be less if we want to negotiate it down). Once he signs it, then we can trade him if someone is willing to trade. However, IMO I doubt anyone would offer him a contract remotely like what we did (something north of 20 mill guaranteed and 5 years with a total of somewhere around 40 Mill) until they see that he can actually play a full season at the level he used to. Even then, I suspect the number is higher than his actual market worth.

[Joel]

more interesting might be whether the f-tag was a mistake. not because of his hurt feelings (bo hoo), but because it makes it less likely we can unload him, as edo (edit) just noted.

should we have t-tagged (yikes, one letter makes all the difference) him, instead?

[cland]

I'll say no. I think we're all a little ticked at Dunta for not being around this off-season, but let's not forget this dude is a leader for our team. I don't think he's a top-5 coverage corner by any means, but that attitude and competitiveness is contagious. There have definitely been times when a loud, aggressive Dunta tackle has fueled up our defense.

Dunta was drafted at #10 overall and is coming into the prime of his career. To trade him for a future 1st round pick, and the lower than 50/50 odds that guy will ever be as good as Dunta isn't great value.

He'll be expensive to sign, but unless he's waiting on an Asomugha type deal, I think he'll end up signing with us for a bit more guaranteed than 23 mil. I just don't know when that will be.

On a larger note, I'm hoping to see some contracts with key players worked out in July.

[barrett]

more interesting might be whether the f-tag was a mistake. not because of his hurt feelings (bo hoo), but because it makes it less likely we can unload him, as edo (edit) just noted.

should we have t-tagged (yikes, one letter makes all the difference) him, instead?

It's not less likely for us to unload him at all. When a guy is franchised but not in camp they regularly go shopping to other teams looking for the long term deal they seek. Then if a suitor is found, the franchise tag is removed, and a new contract is worked out as part of the trade.

As for trading him, why do it for a draft pick who cannot help us this year? Why give up a piece that can help you in 2009 for a draft pick that won't arrive until 2010. Keep him and the worst case scenario is he sits all year (which he won't do for financial reasons), and then we trade him after the season for a pick in that same 2010 draft.

We are firmly in control of the situation and it would be dumb to dump him for a future pick just because he doesn't feel like playing for us.

[papabear]

As things currently stand we can't trade him. Until he signs his franchise offer there isn't a dang thing we can do with him, other than revoke the offer.....OR...someone signs him and pays us two first round picks (could be less if we want to negotiate it down). Once he signs it, then we can trade him if someone is willing to trade. However, IMO I doubt anyone would offer him a contract remotely like what we did (something north of 20 mill guaranteed and 5 years with a total of somewhere around 40 Mill) until they see that he can actually play a full season at the level he used to. Even then, I suspect the number is higher than his actual market worth.

I don't think it makes that big of difference in our ability to trade him. Any trade would require a new deal to be worked out with the other team before anything is finalized. Teams use the franchise tag as a way to buy more time to work out a trade. New England did it with Cassel if I'm not mistaken. Most teams know that no one is going to give up two first round picks. The F-Tag just keeps them in control of the player,whether they sign it or not, so they can see what teams will offer. The other team won't go through with the deal until a deal is in place with the player. I'm not sure if the player ever has to even sign the Franchise offer. If they do they can sign it, and send the trade paperwork to the league right after that.


I could be wrong, but that's my understanding.

[Nconroe]

If Dunta shows up in next week, good for him. otherwise he better be talking real nice to Smith and Kubiak or I guess he'll be gone. you can't be a team leader and be absent, they don't go together.

[cadams]

You don't trade him right now. I have no problem trading him for the right price, and at the right time, but this isn't it. If you were going to trade him before this season it should have been done before the draft so they could pick up anothe rplayer for this year. At this point, there is really no upside to trading him until after the season (unless he isn't the guy he used to be). After the season, if it still looks like it won't work out, then you tag him and tell him he is free to see if his agent can get a trade suitor lined up.

[TexicanMexican]

I agree with cadams. You try and trade when you can get best value for a player. I don't think the timing is right.

If it's true that he turned down the multi year contract, I'm scratching my head why?

[NBT]

When does leadership become a locker room cancer? Dunta is an out front type of guy yes, but could he be getting some bad advice?

[barrett]

I really doubt we see problems out of him in the locker room. After all the holdout is done and he reports (may not be until the start of the regular season), then he will be spending the rest of the year auditioning for a new job and a new team. Any bad press that comes out of Houston about him causing trouble will hit him where it apparently matters most to him (in the wallet).

Most likely nobody budges on the contract. He reports only when he has to in order to avoid missing game checks. He plays hard to look good for future employers. He is generally aloof towards teammates and coaches. He leaves next year via trade, after the season but before the draft.

[dadmg]

I voted "I wouldn't trade him for anything" although that's technically not true. If I could get a cornerback of the same age and caliber as Dunta who was under contract for a few more years, then obviously I would. Corner's a valuable position and I can't imagine trying to trade a good one coming into his prime. I don't think Dunta's holdout's unreasonable, nor do I think the Texans are being unreasonable in wanting to see a year of him healthy. Truthfully, we should have locked Dunta up a few years ago. That said, I think the Texans need to bite the bullet on this one. Good cornerbacks don't come cheap, but there's a reason for that. If you've got one, you don't let him go; doubly so if you're in a division with Peyton Manning.

[Rum Runner]

...If you've got one, you don't let him go...

I don't know that this is an accurate statement. Not really sure why, aside from the obvious monetary reasons, but it's not uncommon at all for a good to even great cornerback to switch teams. It's not like great quarterbacks or left tackles that normally stick with their teams until the twilight of their careers.

Just off the top of my head:
D. Sanders
C. Bailey
T. Law
A. Woodson
A. Samuel

D. Robinson had an above average rookie season and I would argue that his rookie year was his best; those flashes we saw gave us hope for more but the greatnest never materialized . I will no be surprised at all if he is wearing another uniform next year but I don't think it will be because of a trade... I think we let him walk.

[Big Texas]

Unless I have missed something, why are we willing to give up so soon on Dunta. I am not saying at all that he is back up to his normal self. But that was only half a season that he played. I think he deserves at least a full season to really assess his status. However I have been reading that Glover Quinn is doing great in OTA's. Let this guy get some more reps in the league and training camp. If turns out to be more than a nickel or dimer then lets start discussing trade rumors. Like so many others have said whats the use of giving up a starting corner for a draft pick next year. Then your back to square one.
Jacque Reeves and a whole hell of lot of maybes. At this moment with Dunta playing we are a better team.

Here's a thought. If dunta's speed is not where it needs to be, why are we not considering working him out a safety like was previously discussed?

[Big Texas]

DRob has played in 63 games. Equivalent of 4 seasons.
1st four seasons in the league.

DRob 329 Tackles 45 Pass Dfl 13 int. 1 TD
Champ ? Tackles ? Pass Dfl 16 int. 1 TD
A.Sam. 188 Tackles 43 Pass Dfl 16 int. 2 TD

I'm not saying that DRob is better than these guys at this point in his career. Im just saying he deserves at least one full season to see if he's back to normal.

[bckey]

Unless I have missed something, why are we willing to give up so soon on Dunta.

It doesn't really come down to how DRob compares to the elite cb's of the NFL. It comes down to his unwillingness to sign what was reported to be a Chris Gamble type contract. The Texans offered him elite money even with the unsurety of him ever being what he was pre-injury. Instead the Texans had to franchise him so that he couldn't just walk. Dunta has made it pretty clear he doesn't want to play in Houston with his actions not necessarily his words. He said he would report to camp if the Texans would promise not to franchise him next year. He wants to play somewhere else. He has alienated himself from most Texan fans that used to be behind him 100%. I'm worried he will be a cancer in the lockeroom this year because he feels he has been disrespected by Rick Smith and the fans are really getting tired of all his whining. I say get rid of him now and be done with him.

[NBT]

I hear all this crap about what Dunta deserves, but what about what the team deserves? The Texans weren't exactly putting DRob on bread and water when they offered $23M in guaranteed money! Come on people, he is looking out for himself to get the fattest contract he can get before the league starts capping these humongous bonuses.

[barrett]

It doesn't really come down to how DRob compares to the elite cb's of the NFL. It comes down to his unwillingness to sign what was reported to be a Chris Gamble type contract. The Texans offered him elite money even with the unsurety of him ever being what he was pre-injury. Instead the Texans had to franchise him so that he couldn't just walk. Dunta has made it pretty clear he doesn't want to play in Houston with his actions not necessarily his words. He said he would report to camp if the Texans would promise not to franchise him next year. He wants to play somewhere else. He has alienated himself from most Texan fans that used to be behind him 100%. I'm worried he will be a cancer in the lockeroom this year because he feels he has been disrespected by Rick Smith and the fans are really getting tired of all his whining. I say get rid of him now and be done with him.

Who cares if he alienated fans? That has nothing to do with anything. I would hope that those alienated fans care more about winning and what's best for the team.

If we can't get a player for Dunta their is absolutely ZERO reason to trade him before next year's draft. Use him for what he's worth before he leaves if that's what he wants. The franchise tag gives us all the power here and letting him get his way for pouting just because some fans don't like him anymore would be foolish.

[Big Texas]

I understand that he is possibly being stubborn here. But how many stars are not. There is definately a business side to football. Me personally I would have taken the franchise tag offer and worked my ass off this year to prove that I was worth a long term deal. But its not me. I dont think this is a personal attack on the team in any way. When it comes down to the business side, the players must look out for themselves because the owners surely are not. They will trade you or release you without a hesitation if it fits their scheme of things. So he must look out for himself or no one will.

2. Its not uncommon for players to want long term security.

[bckey]

Its not uncommon for players to want long term security.

But Dunta doesn't want that security in Houston

[edo783]

Dunta WAS offered long term security at a level FAR above what he should have been (20+ million guaranteed), but top 5 CB money just wasn't good enough for him. What does that say? To me it says "I don't care what you offer, I don't want to be here". So, the team stuck with him through his injury and paid him the whole time with no complaints and he turns around and craps in their hand on the long term offer that he supposedly wanted and then snivels that they franchise him for a MERE 9.9 million guaranteed and then wants them to grantee they wont franchise him next year. Well screw him and the horse he rode in on. Wait to the last dang minute, withdraw the tag and let him get what he deserves...... maybe 2 million from some team. And that BS about "They said they wouldn't franchise me" is just that, BS. If he has more smarts than a box of rocks, he would know that isn't even a possibility in the negotiations. The team probably didn't expect to have to do it because they expected him to accept the type of offer he said he was looking for. Frack him and chuck his butt out of town in the worst possible situation that they can create. If the team was trying to low ball him and take advantage of his injury situation I would feel very differently, but basically the guy flat out lied about wanting to be a Texan until he retired and he proved it when he rejected exactly the type of contract he said he wanted.

[barrett]

Dunta WAS offered long term security at a level FAR above what he should have been (20+ million guaranteed), but top 5 CB money just wasn't good enough for him. What does that say? To me it says "I don't care what you offer, I don't want to be here". So, the team stuck with him through his injury and paid him the whole time with no complaints and he turns around and craps in their hand on the long term offer that he supposedly wanted and then snivels that they franchise him for a MERE 9.9 million guaranteed and then wants them to grantee they wont franchise him next year. Well screw him and the horse he rode in on. Wait to the last dang minute, withdraw the tag and let him get what he deserves...... maybe 2 million from some team. And that BS about "They said they wouldn't franchise me" is just that, BS. If he has more smarts than a box of rocks, he would know that isn't even a possibility in the negotiations. The team probably didn't expect to have to do it because they expected him to accept the type of offer he said he was looking for. Frack him and chuck his butt out of town in the worst possible situation that they can create. If the team was trying to low ball him and take advantage of his injury situation I would feel very differently, but basically the guy flat out lied about wanting to be a Texan until he retired and he proved it when he rejected exactly the type of contract he said he wanted.

Please explain how this helps the Texans win football games next year.

[edo783]

Please explain how this helps the Texans win football games next year.

By keeping the 10 mill and getting player(s) who wants to be here and will actually contribute to the team and not be a locker room asshat. Heck use the money to sign the guys that are actually playing and needing a new contract. I think there might be a couple of those guys out there. It also gives the satisfaction of punking a dipstick that basically spit in your face while lying to you. Dunta on his BEST day was a just slightly above average CB. Pretty good against the run and fair at best against the pass. Last season showed him to be less than marginal as a CB. Might he come back better than last year, yes but do you really think he will even be back to 90% of what he was when he was just slightly above average? So we make him a stupendous offer and get treated this way.... I'm sorry, when the team goes out of it's way to do more than fair by the player and you get this level of whinny disrespect, then just jackem up. And if you think any one will trade a 1st or even a 2nd for him you need to back off on the drugs.

[bckey]

I pretty much agree with everything edo783 said concerning Dunta. Get rid of the bum. The sooner the better.

[popanot]

First sign of a contract squabbled and people fly off the deep end. I'm sure glad Kubiak and Smith are playing this close to the vest and not overreacting. It would not surprise me at all to see this getting resolved with a new contract at some point. If it doesn't, well then trade him before the '10 draft - or for a player like Landry or Atogwe (sp??). Dunta has everything to lose by not playing hard and/or being an a$$-clown in the locker room this year. I doubt he's going to do that. He might make a comment to the media about his contract status from time to time, but I doubt he's going to be a disruptive force in the locker room. For one, I don't think the leaders on this team would put up with it, and second, Kubiak would put his arse on the pine if he doesn't perform and they have a suitable replacement. Dunta loses big-time if that happens.

[barrett]

By keeping the 10 mill and getting player(s) who wants to be here and will actually contribute to the team and not be a locker room asshat. Heck use the money to sign the guys that are actually playing and needing a new contract. I think there might be a couple of those guys out there. It also gives the satisfaction of punking a dipstick that basically spit in your face while lying to you. Dunta on his BEST day was a just slightly above average CB. Pretty good against the run and fair at best against the pass. Last season showed him to be less than marginal as a CB. Might he come back better than last year, yes but do you really think he will even be back to 90% of what he was when he was just slightly above average? So we make him a stupendous offer and get treated this way.... I'm sorry, when the team goes out of it's way to do more than fair by the player and you get this level of whinny disrespect, then just jackem up. And if you think any one will trade a 1st or even a 2nd for him you need to back off on the drugs.

I still cannot believe that you are calling for the team to just let him go. Some are calling for a trade, and while not logical in timing, it is a possible NFL move. To just pull the offer and let him walk is colosally stupid.

Almost nothing you said has anything to do with winning games next year. Most of it is just whining that is out of all proportion to the situation. You are reacting like Dunta has somehow personally wronged you by trying to get paid more money. He may be delusional and he may not want to play in Houston, but neither makes him the anti-christ.

Dunta will sign the offer before he loses game checks because obviously money matters to him. Then he will play hard for us because it's a business and he'll be auditioning for a new team. Then he will likely leave after the year through a trade for a 2010 draft pick. In this scenario we get a season of play from him (and he is certainly one of our 2 best CBs). And we get compensation for him in some form when he leaves.

In your scenario we get the "satisfaction of punking a dipstick that basically spit in your face while lying to you." I am very glad that our GM isn't running our franchise looking to punk people.

[Big Texas]

Almost nothing you said has anything to do with winning games next year

Agreed.

I dont understand why people are really pushing to get rid of this guy as if CB is our strongest position. If by some stretch of the imagination he is released or traded for a 2010 draft pick, I hope Quin becomes a stud because otherwise we will be bringing back the same sub par secondary that we had last year.

And as far as saving the money from Dunta contract to sign a good player. I can count on one hand how many impactful free agents we've signed since our inception.

Lets just go with our best options for winning right now.

[jppaul]

I hear all this crap about what Dunta deserves, but what about what the team deserves? The Texans weren't exactly putting DRob on bread and water when they offered $23M in guaranteed money! Come on people, he is looking out for himself to get the fattest contract he can get before the league starts capping these humongous bonuses.

I don't know, I think he is scared of injury. I think that last injury shook him. If you need evidence, the look at every play where a pile was rolling up on him, he looked like a rabbit, hopping around.

In a game dominated by bravado and fearlessness, amongst a car crash a play, the realization of your own mortality in the context of football life, has to be a debilitating thought.

Compound that with the epiphany that this is all you have ever done, that you have little skill outside of a 40x100 rectangle of sod, and other likeminded individuals, little other ability to make a living or to provide for your family, it makes sense.

Considering all that I think his position becomes clear, and I for one firmly believe that he should do what is best for his family. I know that by stating such sentiments I am standing in the way of an almost universal countertide, but I have little problem with Dunta or his stance.

[Nconroe]

Well, just for the sake of discussion, if Dunta were really upset, and became a locker room cancer,or really wants out of town, and likely that is not the case, but if it was judged to be true by those close enough to know, then it would help win games if he were not here. But, if it is just negotiating, no hard feelings, everyone is positive, all the teammates are ok, then keep him, assuming he can play good enough to make the team, like he did three years ago. And maybe he gets a long term deal and everyone is happy and even more happy once we go to the playoffs. We seem to get mixed signals out of Dunta and his agents, so we get confused on the best way forward as well.

[jppaul]

Well, just for the sake of discussion, if Dunta were really upset, and became a locker room cancer,or really wants out of town, and likely that is not the case, but if it was judged to be true by those close enough to know, then it would help win games if he were not here. But, if it is just negotiating, no hard feelings, everyone is positive, all the teammates are ok, then keep him, assuming he can play good enough to make the team, like he did three years ago. And maybe he gets a long term deal and everyone is happy and even more happy once we go to the playoffs. We seem to get mixed signals out of Dunta and his agents, so we get confused on the best way forward as well.

Sounds like a fair enough assessment.

[popanot]

So now that Daniels has decided to take the Dunta route, I guess we should jettison him too. :rolleyes:

Greedy bastards!!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6466951.html

[bckey]

I think Dunta's case is unique. He turned down what pretty much everyone except him thinks is a more than fair offer and long term deal. The guy doesn't want to play in Houston and he is mad because he got franchised.

[NBT]

So now that Daniels has decided to take the Dunta route, I guess we should jettison him too. :rolleyes:

Greedy bastards!!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6466951.html


It's the nature of the NFL beast right now. The CBA is about to exprire and the players whose contracts are expiring are getting antsy over their money. Right now I can't put Daniels in the same league with Robinson. Owen is restricted and Dunta is F-tagged. Lots of difference there. Owen is mildly confused, Dunta is foaming at the mouth over the F-tag. I would placate Owen and get rid of the other.

[dadmg]

Owen is mildly confused

Daniels isn't mildly confused; he knows that if they don't reach a CBA then he will not be a free agent next year because the uncapped year rules are different and require more accrued experience.

[dadmg]

I think Dunta's case is unique. He turned down what pretty much everyone except him thinks is a more than fair offer and long term deal. The guy doesn't want to play in Houston and he is mad because he got franchised.

I would be willing to bet he'd get a much better deal in free agency if he has a solid year. I can understand why the Texans wouldn't want to go higher, but I still think they're wrong.

In 2007, Asante Samuel got $20 million guaranteed on a 6-year, $57 million contract.

In 2008, Nnamdi Asomugha got $28.5 million guaranteed on a three year, $45 million contract, Marcus Trufant got a $20 million guaranteed on a 6-year $50 contract, and Chris Gamble got a $23 million guaranteed on 6 years and $50 million.

Asomugha is the top CB in the league and Dunta won't approach that money, even with the increases that come from year to year. But I think that Trufant and Gamble were able to get similar deals to Samuel a year later is as good an indicator as any of the way contracts go up each year. Considering the likely increase next year even if they reach a CBA, Dunta should be able to get $22-25 million guaranteed if he has a decent year. And if there is an uncapped year then that money might go up further. Last I heard, the Texans were supposedly offering $18-19 and Dunta wanted $23. I think it'd be rather shocking if he couldn't make better than the Texans offer on the open market. I think there's a good chance he could make more than he's asking for right now. Add in that Dunta has sufficient leverage to ask for the franchise tender to have a no-franchise clause (which has happened several times in the last few years) and the leverage goes even more in Dunta's favor. It may be a lot of money, but the Texans offer doesn't look like much more than an opening offer. If that's their final offer, Dunta should leave.

[barrett]

I would be willing to bet he'd get a much better deal in free agency if he has a solid year. I can understand why the Texans wouldn't want to go higher, but I still think they're wrong.

In 2007, Asante Samuel got $20 million guaranteed on a 6-year, $57 million contract.

In 2008, Nnamdi Asomugha got $28.5 million guaranteed on a three year, $45 million contract, Marcus Trufant got a $20 million guaranteed on a 6-year $50 contract, and Chris Gamble got a $23 million guaranteed on 6 years and $50 million.

Asomugha is the top CB in the league and Dunta won't approach that money, even with the increases that come from year to year. But I think that Trufant and Gamble were able to get similar deals to Samuel a year later is as good an indicator as any of the way contracts go up each year. Considering the likely increase next year even if they reach a CBA, Dunta should be able to get $22-25 million guaranteed if he has a decent year. And if there is an uncapped year then that money might go up further. Last I heard, the Texans were supposedly offering $18-19 and Dunta wanted $23. I think it'd be rather shocking if he couldn't make better than the Texans offer on the open market. I think there's a good chance he could make more than he's asking for right now. Add in that Dunta has sufficient leverage to ask for the franchise tender to have a no-franchise clause (which has happened several times in the last few years) and the leverage goes even more in Dunta's favor. It may be a lot of money, but the Texans offer doesn't look like much more than an opening offer. If that's their final offer, Dunta should leave.

You act like Dunta is coming off of a career year. He's not. He's coming off of starting the year on the PUP and then finishing it as a part time player who could tackle but couldn't cover.

To this point we have not seen Dunta close to the level he played at in 2007. To me it makes sense that if he wants a long term deal right now under these circumstances, then he is going to have to give a discount for security's sake. Or if he is that confiddent in himself and his health, he can play the year at $10 million and get the big payday next year. Either way he has no right to cash in for anything close to $25 million based on what he showed on the field last year.

So sign the deal for less or bet on yourself and perform your way to the big deal next year. I hope he plays like the Dunta of old and gets every dollar he can. But either way I am glad we're not throwing $25 million at a guy who is almost 2 years away from playing good football.

[edo783]

According to reports and not denied by Dunta or his agent, we offered him a contract similar to Gamble's, long term with 23 million guaranteed. Even in his BEST form that would probably be more than he is worth, or at the very least at the very top of his market/playing worth. We did that after paying him during the time he was off and after a less than stellar return and yet he didn't want the deal. To think that we some how didn't give a stupendously good offer is ludicrous. IMO, we are lucky he didn't take it as he isn't worth it nor IMO is he worth the 9.9 mill of the franchise. Lots of fans are in love with the hits he does in the run game, but seem to forget that other than his rookie year, he was rather consistently beat in the passing game. Does he seem to bring some fire to the defense, yes at times, but is that worth burying the cap room to pay for what is a mediocre CB at best and perhaps not even mediocre these days.

[barrett]

According to reports and not denied by Dunta or his agent, we offered him a contract similar to Gamble's, long term with 23 million guaranteed. Even in his BEST form that would probably be more than he is worth, or at the very least at the very top of his market/playing worth. We did that after paying him during the time he was off and after a less than stellar return and yet he didn't want the deal. To think that we some how didn't give a stupendously good offer is ludicrous. IMO, we are lucky he didn't take it as he isn't worth it nor IMO is he worth the 9.9 mill of the franchise. Lots of fans are in love with the hits he does in the run game, but seem to forget that other than his rookie year, he was rather consistently beat in the passing game. Does he seem to bring some fire to the defense, yes at times, but is that worth burying the cap room to pay for what is a mediocre CB at best and perhaps not even mediocre these days.

A few things. (1) Dunta was far better than mediocre in 2007 and before. (2) We had no choice but to pay Dunta while he was hurt. It wasn't like we did it out of the goodness of our heart. (3) He is our best option at CB if healthy and would be one of our 2 best this year even if he doesn't make it all the back.

Make him play for the franchise tag and buy yourself a year in the negotiations to see if he can still play like he did pre-injury. If he doesn't like it he will sit out and not get paid and hurt his own value for other teams.

So I have no problem with Dunta trying to get paid (especially since he is looking at what might be his one big payday in a league heavily slanted to the owners), and I have no problem with the Texans not paying a guy coming off of a serious injury. Lets just let it play out. We haven't even hit training camp yet.

[Bigtinylittle]

You act like Dunta is coming off of a career year. He's not. He's coming off of starting the year on the PUP and then finishing it as a part time player who could tackle but couldn't cover.

To this point we have not seen Dunta close to the level he played at in 2007. To me it makes sense that if he wants a long term deal right now under these circumstances, then he is going to have to give a discount for security's sake. Or if he is that confiddent in himself and his health, he can play the year at $10 million and get the big payday next year. Either way he has no right to cash in for anything close to $25 million based on what he showed on the field last year.

So sign the deal for less or bet on yourself and perform your way to the big deal next year. I hope he plays like the Dunta of old and gets every dollar he can. But either way I am glad we're not throwing $25 million at a guy who is almost 2 years away from playing good football.


What you are saying is so clear that for the life of me I can't understand why anyone sees it any other way. Giving a big time contract to a player who may never again be more than average is a huge risk. In a sport without a cap it might be different, but in football every bad contract hurts the team.

[papabear]

A few things. (1) Dunta was far better than mediocre in 2007 and before. (2) We had no choice but to pay Dunta while he was hurt. It wasn't like we did it out of the goodness of our heart. (3) He is our best option at CB if healthy and would be one of our 2 best this year even if he doesn't make it all the back.

Make him play for the franchise tag and buy yourself a year in the negotiations to see if he can still play like he did pre-injury. If he doesn't like it he will sit out and not get paid and hurt his own value for other teams.

So I have no problem with Dunta trying to get paid (especially since he is looking at what might be his one big payday in a league heavily slanted to the owners), and I have no problem with the Texans not paying a guy coming off of a serious injury. Lets just let it play out. We haven't even hit training camp yet.

Dunta was better than mediocre in 2007, but his best year by far was his rookie year when he exceeded expectations for a rookie corner. He hasn't played at that same level since then. I blame a lot of it on scheme...but that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't performed as well as I had hoped he had.

I have zero problem with him for trying to maximize his money right now. I think he's taking the negotiations a little too personnel, but I guess it's hard not too sometimes. I'm not a fan of some of the comments he made publicly either. I think it should be handled a different way, but it's his contract not mine. If he were to ask me for my advice I would tell him that he should have taken the 23 Mill deal...if that's what he really got offered. It's entirely possible that the the Texans slipped a big roster bonus on the back end of the contract that they included in the gauranteed money when it "accidentally" got leaked to the media. Pure speculation, but if they did something like that then Dunta is smart enough to know that he would be released before ever seeing that big bonus. He would probably also feel like the Texans were just trying to make him look. You never know.

He's very aware of how fragile an NFL career is. This is probably his one shot at a really big deal. Very few players get a shot at more than 1 big free agent deal. Holdouts happen all the time, we've just had very few players of a high enough caliber for it to be an issue. Every year guys get included on the "potential" free agents list and everyone starts drooling over who they might be able to sign next year. Most of the marquee names end up staying with their team. We don't know what's being said behind closed doors, and that's why I'm just can't get too worked up over this. He's here this year for sure unless something wild happens. Beyond that there's nothing to do but wait and see.

[edo783]

IMO, Dunta WAS a close to elite run stopper, but just slightly above average in pass coverage. The ONLY time he showed well was his rookie year. Last year he was less than average in both realms and was beaten badly in pass coverage. Will he be better this year....most likely, but certainly not at top 5 level as he was NEVER there to start with.

[bckey]

What you are saying is so clear that for the life of me I can't understand why anyone sees it any other way. Giving a big time contract to a player who may never again be more than average is a huge risk. In a sport without a cap it might be different, but in football every bad contract hurts the team.

And I can't understand why anyone can't see Dunta already turned down a big pay day (23 million guaranteed) with the Texans and doesn't want to play here. Unless you think he deserves more than that I don't see what he can possibly hold out for.

[barrett]

And I can't understand why anyone can't see Dunta already turned down a big pay day (23 million guaranteed) with the Texans and doesn't want to play here. Unless you think he deserves more than that I don't see what he can possibly hold out for.


What's your point?

We use the franchise tag to wait and see. What better option do you think we have?

[bckey]

What's your point?

We use the franchise tag to wait and see. What better option do you think we have?

I agree. You have to use the franchise tag. My point is some people keep thinking Dunta is waiting for the right offer from the Texans and they will come to an agreement and I'm saying it has come and gone. The Texans aren't going to up their offer of 23 million guaranteed. Letting it play out only favors the Texans. Dunta has already rejected their max offer. If he was smart he would appologize to the f/o and the fans and ask if the deal is still on the table and then sign it. It was ignorant for him to think the Texans would just let him walk regardless if R Smith said it or not. Grow up, shut up and play Dunta. Be thankful you were able to come back from such a devastating injury and still have a chance to get paid. Take the money and quit whining.

[barrett]

I agree. You have to use the franchise tag. My point is some people keep thinking Dunta is waiting for the right offer from the Texans and they will come to an agreement and I'm saying it has come and gone. The Texans aren't going to up their offer of 23 million guaranteed. Letting it play out only favors the Texans. Dunta has already rejected their max offer. If he was smart he would appologize to the f/o and the fans and ask if the deal is still on the table and then sign it. It was ignorant for him to think the Texans would just let him walk regardless if R Smith said it or not. Grow up, shut up and play Dunta. Be thankful you were able to come back from such a devastating injury and still have a chance to get paid. Take the money and quit whining.

At this point I am assuming we rent him with the Franchise tag and then move him before the 2010 draft (what we get depends on how he plays). I assume he will show up right before the regular season to avoid missing game checks, and will play hard to improve his value for other teams.

[edo783]

At this point I am assuming we rent him with the Franchise tag and then move him before the 2010 draft (what we get depends on how he plays). I assume he will show up right before the regular season to avoid missing game checks, and will play hard to improve his value for other teams.

The issue with letting him come in at the start of the season and not attending TC and be in the pre-season games, is that we have installed a defense that has some new wrinkles to it. All the schemes will be set with the guys who are in camp. He will basically be a guy who doesn't know it and it will take several weeks for him to get up to speed, not to mention in game day condition and have the rapport with his team mates. I doubt he will reach effectiveness (which IMO is with greatly diminished skill set) before week 3, so in essence we are disrupting what we are building for a guy who wont be effective for 20% of the season and very likely wont be here next year for continuity and paying him 9.9 million for it. For some reason, that doesn't seem very sensible to me.

[barrett]

The issue with letting him come in at the start of the season and not attending TC and be in the pre-season games, is that we have installed a defense that has some new wrinkles to it. All the schemes will be set with the guys who are in camp. He will basically be a guy who doesn't know it and it will take several weeks for him to get up to speed, not to mention in game day condition and have the rapport with his team mates. I doubt he will reach effectiveness (which IMO is with greatly diminished skill set) before week 3, so in essence we are disrupting what we are building for a guy who wont be effective for 20% of the season and very likely wont be here next year for continuity and paying him 9.9 million for it. For some reason, that doesn't seem very sensible to me.

Even assuming everything goes as bad as you say, tell me what the alternatives at CB are.

Currently on the roster are Jaques Reeves, Fred Bennett (who played worse than the gimpy Dunta of last year), Molden (who never saw the field and was burried behind a terrible group of CBs), and low round rookies with no experience.

Even if Dunta is not the dunta of old, and even if he comes in late and does not play until week 3, he is still one of our two best CBs. This is all that matters. Playing him gives the Texans a better chance to win than not playing him. So use him for what he's worth next year.

[Roy P]

Currently on the roster are Jaques Reeves, Fred Bennett (who played worse than the gimpy Dunta of last year), Molden (who never saw the field and was burried behind a terrible group of CBs), and low round rookies with no experience.



Don't underestimate the value of Young Gibbs over our old D-Backs coach.

[edo783]

Don't underestimate the value of Young Gibbs over our old D-Backs coach.

Exactly, and Bennett isn't chopped liver and he is a better bet than Dunta to play well particularly in pass coverage, which if I'm not mistaken is the key role for a CB.

[Keith]

The ONLY time he showed well was his rookie year.

I think this is completely wrong.

The stats won't show it (they sometimes don't for good corners that are not challenged as much as their teammate on the other side), but imo Robinson was probably having the best year of his career in 2007 before the injury. Everyone remembers how much of an impact he made as a rookie because expectations were low and he was challenged more often (especially initially as a still-useful Aaron Glenn played the other corner), but Robinson was having a Pro Bowl-caliber season in 2007 before he went down. But don't take my word for it - - per this chron article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6172615.html), "Robinson was playing at what Kubiak considered a Pro Bowl level before the injury".

We were lucky to have Fred Bennett step in as a rookie after the injury, but Bennett's rookie status and the lowered fan expectations that come with it might be also contributing to this selective memory loss about Robinson's quality of play two years ago.

All that said, however, it doesn't really make the current situation any clearer. At this point, I'm sorta feeling like what barrett says, that we may be witnessing Robinson's final year as a Texan in 2009 before he moves elsewhere next year. I still have hope though that a compromise is achieved on a new contract within the first week of so of training camp. I think it's entirely possible.

Regardless of whether a new agreement is reached, the window to trade Robinson has most likely passed until next Feb/Mar imo. If the Texans were going to move him in 2009, they probably would have done it before the draft.

[barrett]

Exactly, and Bennett isn't chopped liver and he is a better bet than Dunta to play well particularly in pass coverage, which if I'm not mistaken is the key role for a CB.

Bennett was worse than chopped liver last year. He took a GIANT step backwards and was benched even before Dunta came back. He made a small recovery towards the end of the season and attributed it to Dunta's return.

[jppaul]

Bennett was worse than chopped liver last year. He took a GIANT step backwards and was benched even before Dunta came back. He made a small recovery towards the end of the season and attributed it to Dunta's return.

I hope that is hyperbole, because that statement, just like your stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB, is a load of crap.

[barrett]

I hope that is hyperbole, because that statement, just like your stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB, is a load of crap.

I never took a stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB. Try to find one. Instead I took a stance that I wouldn't draft a SLB in round 1 because I don't think it's a valued position in the 4-3. Obviously (and luckily for all of us), Rick Smith currently runs the Texans while I sit and watch games on my couch. I still don't like the Cushing pick, but none of that applies to Fred Bennett.

Now do you think Bennett played well last year? Before you answer, remember that he was benched in favor of PETEY FAGGINS.

[jppaul]

I never took a stance that the Texans wouldn't draft a SLB. Try to find one. Instead I took a stance that I wouldn't draft a SLB in round 1 because I don't think it's a valued position in the 4-3. Obviously (and luckily for all of us), Rick Smith currently runs the Texans while I sit and watch games on my couch. I still don't like the Cushing pick, but none of that applies to Fred Bennett.

Now do you think Bennett played well last year? Before you answer, remember that he was benched in favor of PETEY FAGGINS.

You are correct I misstated your position on SLB, but as you say it is lucky that professionals run the organization, because Bennett certainly was better than chopped liver, despite the fact that he was benched, and if you had your way he wouldn't be out there.

I think he played well at times, and not so well at times. His performance was not any worse than the rest of our CBs, and the performance of that unit, was largely a function of the lack of pressure.

Even the best CB looks like crap when a QB has all day to throw. Champ Bailey looked like crap last year too.

[Bigtinylittle]

I usually would think it was a mistake to take an SLB in the first, but in this case it makes more sense than usual. Traditional first round picks: LT, QB, WR, DE, CB, and MLB are pretty well represented on the Texans. I think we probably needed a SS and a DT more than an SLB, but SS is not normally a position you go for in the first, and I guess the Texans didn't see a DT they liked. Besides, we've already spent enough first rounders on DTs. The Texans took Cushing over Mathews not because his position is more important, but because they clearly think he's the better player. Time will tell whether he is or not. If both players turn out to be equally good, then Weakside should have been our pick IMO.

[barrett]

You are correct I misstated your position on SLB, but as you say it is lucky that professionals run the organization, because Bennett certainly was better than chopped liver, despite the fact that he was benched, and if you had your way he wouldn't be out there.

I think he played well at times, and not so well at times. His performance was not any worse than the rest of our CBs, and the performance of that unit, was largely a function of the lack of pressure.

Even the best CB looks like crap when a QB has all day to throw. Champ Bailey looked like crap last year too.

Again, I never said Bennett should not be here. I said we need Dunta to play this year because it will help us win games. A response was made that Bennett wasn't chopped liver and we'd be ok without Dunta.

I feel this is false and that Bennett followed up a very good rookie campaign with a terrible second season. He was so bad he was benched in favor of the oft-maligned Petey Faggins (and rightly so). At the end of the year he started to play a little better, but only after Dunta (a fellow gamecock and mentor to Bennett) returned to the field.

I remain hopeful Bennett will become what he showed the potential to be during his rookie season. But at this point I feel it would be foolish to count on Bennett as a starting NFL CB when we have other options (like DR).

As for Cushing (who is not related to this conersation at all). I would not pick a SLB in round 1, but I place great value in what Smith and Kubiak believe. And I can easily withhold my own flawed judgement until I see results on the field to show what kind of pick this was. Especially since I do not follow the draft or College football as deeply as many on this site (and certainly not anything like an NFL GM).

[jppaul]

We'll agree that I hope Bennett is better this year, but I also don't think he was as bad as you think.

[superbowlbound]

I wanted to stay out of this, but this has clearly gone on too long. If this argument is going to continue, I'm gonna weigh in too. My opinion sits pretty much squarely in the middle between jp and barrett. Are we better with dunta? sure. Is our secondary decimated without him? not by any stretch of the imagination. as JP already said, the biggest reason our secondary looked so bad (apart from reeves' patent refusal to EVER turn his head to look for the ball) was because of our pass rush, which should be markedly improved this year, by both the new scheme (which will hopefully use our dt's strengths, which are primarily in the getting up field department) and the addition of connor barwin and antonio smith. While Bennett was bad last year, he showed improvement down the stretch, and is too talented and committed an individual to go pbust on us. A good front 7 will cover a myriad of secondary issues, and I now think we have one of the better front 7's in the league.

So back on point. Would I like to have dunta as a career texan? absolutely. Is that a likely outcome to this situation? I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm thinking no. I really get the sense that dunta's not so much offended that we f-tagged him, but that we didn't just hand him namdi asomugha's contract with his name on it, despite that horrific injury. Apparently, the fact that he came back early and the texans (with the no. 3 ranked offense in the league) won games after his return cancel out the fact that he allowed a 67% completion percentage to quarterbacks who threw at him. Honestly, I was surprised when I heard mcclain's report that he was offered chris gamble money. The only logic I can fathom is that his stance is "I was drafted higher than him, therefore I deserve more money" which is flawed from the beginning. With or without dunta, we're still a better team than we were last year. And, IMO, the titans, colts, and to a lesser extent the jags, are weaker than they were last year, so I won't cry if dunta doesn't show up into the season. He really oughta know that a holdout until week 1 won't help him in his audition for other teams now that we've got a new dc.

Also, while I personally liked matthews better than cushing, if for no other reason than he ran the same 10 yard split as darius heyward-bay at the combine, slb was a far greater need than wlb. Adibi and Diles can both play, when healthy, and the addition of cato june certainly doesn't hurt that situation. our front 7 is f-ing formidable, and that's a first for our franchise. That will necessarily improve the secondary, with or without dunta.

[jcp]

I generally agree with what SBB said....honestly don't really care anymore, I loved the way Dunta played the game pre-injury and would love to see it return for years. But if he has developed some grudge against the Texans we can do without.

I get the feeling the team now figures he'll eventually sign on for the 10 mil and one of two things will happen:

1. He'll return to form and fetch a better value in trade

or

2. He'll flame out and we'll be glad we didn't invest 23 mil (or whatever he was offered)

Now if somebody goes down in camp and we get a great deal for Dunta to fill in...maybe a trade happens this summer ala champ for portis

We'll see, but i no longer feel like it would be a catastrophic loss...

[jppaul]

In order to fetch anything in a trade we are going to have to resign Daniels or Ryans, so that we can F-tag Dunta.

[Keith]

Negotiations have apparently not improved. Anyone catch this report live? Here is PFT's take:

Jason La Canfora of NFL Network (via our semi-sister site Rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=2774)) reports that the Texans and Robinson remain far apart in contract talks.

And that's significant now because, as of July 15, the Texans and Robinson will be relegated to a one-year deal only.

The July 15 deadline applies to all franchise players. After that date, there can be no multi-year deals. ...


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/08/robinson-texans-still-far-apart/

[painekiller]

Negotiations have apparently not improved. Anyone catch this report live? Here is PFT's take:


I hate to say it, but I am of the notion now that a trade maybe the best option. Late in trading camp when injuries have crept in.

PFT showed an option where the Texans just flat cut him.

What if Bennett & Reeves look solid in preseason and Molden and Quinn have solid camps. Do you mess with the Chemistry and shuffle the guys who have been working there rears off? I might be getting to the point where I say bye bye.

[cland]

I'll have a major problem with Dunta if he continues the holdout through training camp. I understand the OTA holdout as the team still has time to put a long-term package together, and may be swayed by your non-participation to up the ante.

After July 15th has passed, skipping training camp only serves to hurt your team and yourself for the upcoming season. The team can't sign you to any contract until the season is over, so holding out from training camp does nothing from a negotiation standpoint. This is particularly relevant when a new secondary coach has joined the staff. You're not learning the new techniques and scheme, and you're not giving the new DC a chance to see what you bring to the table as he formulates his season long plan.

Part of what Dunta brings to the table is his leadership over the entire defense, but if he's willing to trade training camp for nothing more than a few extra weeks of vacation that leadership quality takes a major hit. So listen up Dunta, accept that you didn't get your long term deal, cash your 9.5m contract, and get your butt out on the field with all of your lower paid teammates.

[cadams]

I hate to say it, but I am of the notion now that a trade maybe the best option. Late in trading camp when injuries have crept in.

PFT showed an option where the Texans just flat cut him.

What if Bennett & Reeves look solid in preseason and Molden and Quinn have solid camps. Do you mess with the Chemistry and shuffle the guys who have been working there rears off? I might be getting to the point where I say bye bye.

I still think this would be a bad move. As I have said earlier, I don't have a problem trading him if you can get good value in return and you do it at the best time for the team. Trading him at the beginning of the season doesn't do the texans any good. If they are going to do that, they should have traded him before the draft so they would have new players this season. No need to do anything until after the season now.

Dunta will be on the field this year, and should be playing his best ball. He will be playing for a contract, even if it isn't with the texans. If he does play well this year that will only help the texans' position in trading him after the season if it comes to that.

All this being said, if someone were to offer some kind of crazy deal for Dunta before the season out of desperation then that would change my stance. It would have to be big though, in my opinion, something crazy like two, first rounders AND a second or third this year.

[painekiller]

I still think this would be a bad move. As I have said earlier, I don't have a problem trading him if you can get good value in return and you do it at the best time for the team. Trading him at the beginning of the season doesn't do the texans any good. If they are going to do that, they should have traded him before the draft so they would have new players this season. No need to do anything until after the season now.

Dunta will be on the field this year, and should be playing his best ball. He will be playing for a contract, even if it isn't with the texans. If he does play well this year that will only help the texans' position in trading him after the season if it comes to that.

All this being said, if someone were to offer some kind of crazy deal for Dunta before the season out of desperation then that would change my stance. It would have to be big though, in my opinion, something crazy like two, first rounders AND a second or third this year.

Nice thought but you can not trade a player who is not under contract. And Dunta will not be under contract after the season is over. In fact right now the team can not discuss trades for Dunta until he signs his offer sheet.

[barrett]

Nice thought but you can not trade a player who is not under contract. And Dunta will not be under contract after the season is over. In fact right now the team can not discuss trades for Dunta until he signs his offer sheet.

Are you serious? We will franchise Dunta next year and he will be in the exact same position, so having him under contract is no issue.

As for talking to other teams now, we don't have to. His agent does. They look for a team willing to re-work his deal, and then come to us when they find one (exactly like we tried with Orlando Pace). Then terms of a trade are worked out. He signs his contract with us, is traded, and signs the new extension with his new team. It is very simple and fairly common.

Guys get traded who are franchised all the time, and many of them are yet to sign their offer sheet.

[nero THE zero]

I'll have a major problem with Dunta if he continues the holdout through training camp. I understand the OTA holdout as the team still has time to put a long-term package together, and may be swayed by your non-participation to up the ante.

After July 15th has passed, skipping training camp only serves to hurt your team and yourself for the upcoming season. The team can't sign you to any contract until the season is over, so holding out from training camp does nothing from a negotiation standpoint. This is particularly relevant when a new secondary coach has joined the staff. You're not learning the new techniques and scheme, and you're not giving the new DC a chance to see what you bring to the table as he formulates his season long plan.

Part of what Dunta brings to the table is his leadership over the entire defense, but if he's willing to trade training camp for nothing more than a few extra weeks of vacation that leadership quality takes a major hit. So listen up Dunta, accept that you didn't get your long term deal, cash your 9.5m contract, and get your butt out on the field with all of your lower paid teammates.

Meh. He's still risking injury without a long term deal if he comes back early. I wouldn't hold that against him.

But, the writing's on the wall. He won't be a Texan after this season. I just hope we trade him in order to get some value back in return; a late 3rd round compensatory pick in a couple of years would not suffice. So, be it this preseason, during the season, or after the season, I hope we deal him for a pick.

[nunusguy]

Are you serious? We will franchise Dunta next year and he will be in the exact same position, so having him under contract is no issue.

As for talking to other teams now, we don't have to. His agent does. They look for a team willing to re-work his deal, and then come to us when they find one (exactly like we tried with Orlando Pace). Then terms of a trade are worked out. He signs his contract with us, is traded, and signs the new extension with his new team. It is very simple and fairly common.

Guys get traded who are franchised all the time, and many of them are yet to sign their offer sheet.

OK then, if that's how it works what if any implications are there of him signing vs not signing the Texans' tender offer on or before 7/15/'09 ?
BTW I don't see D-Rob fetching more than a second rounder at this time without a real "stress-test" this Fall ?

[cadams]

Nice thought but you can not trade a player who is not under contract. And Dunta will not be under contract after the season is over. In fact right now the team can not discuss trades for Dunta until he signs his offer sheet.

Barrett is correct. Also, if the texans tag dunta after the season another team could still sign him, they would just have to give up 2 first round picks for him if the texans don't match the offer or work out a different trade deal . . .at least that is how it works if my memory is correct.

[papabear]

BTW I don't see D-Rob fetching more than a second rounder at this time without a real "stress-test" this Fall ?

I don't see him getting more than a second rounder anyway....It would have been tough to get a second for him pre-injury. Not that he's a bad player, but teams don't give up early draft picks that easily...and casserly isn't currently a GM anywhere.

[barrett]

OK then, if that's how it works what if any implications are there of him signing vs not signing the Texans' tender offer on or before 7/15/'09 ?
BTW I don't see D-Rob fetching more than a second rounder at this time without a real "stress-test" this Fall ?

I believe 7/15 is just his last chance to sign an extension with the Texans. After that he can only sign his tender. But that doesn't affect the new deal that would have to come with any team that trades for him.

That is what people are forgetting who want to trade him. He is only going to agree to a trade if the team he is going to is willing to give him the new deal he is looking for. And nobody will trade for him without a new deal worked out ahead of time. So it's not like we can just unload him for a draft pick. We have to find a team willing to pay him what he wants AND give us what we want. It's not likely to happen.

[dadmg]

Are you serious? We will franchise Dunta next year and he will be in the exact same position, so having him under contract is no issue.


I wouldn't be so certain of that. More than a few recent franchisees have been able to hold out on signing their franchise tender until the team made a contractual agreement not to franchise them again the following year. At this point, its not a certainty that franchising him again would be an option.

[superbowlbound]

I wouldn't be so certain of that. More than a few recent franchisees have been able to hold out on signing their franchise tender until the team made a contractual agreement not to franchise them again the following year. At this point, its not a certainty that franchising him again would be an option.

true, but most of them have had that agreement based on performance clauses, ie albert haynesworth's trip to the probowl. I would gladly give dunta that same stipulation, as I don't think he'll get there, at least not this season.

[barrett]

I wouldn't be so certain of that. More than a few recent franchisees have been able to hold out on signing their franchise tender until the team made a contractual agreement not to franchise them again the following year. At this point, its not a certainty that franchising him again would be an option.

But in all those cases the team needed the player on the field more than the player needed it. In essence it was a one year team rental.

In Dunta's case I don't think they applied the tag because they needed to keep him. They applied it because they were unwilling to let him walk in FA with no recompense. Smith already showed he is willing to upset Dunta and use the tag. I'd be shocked if their is a deal to not use it again. Right now we have all the leverage. We seem willing to go forward with him unsigned but tagged. If he doesn't play he hurts himself far more than he hurts us.

He will almost certainly sign with us and play this year at some point. If there was a team willing to give him a new deal and trade for him, then it would have happened already.

[edo783]

Dunta has been offered a F-tag, but that means zip if he doesn't sign it. We can't trade him until he does and that would be the same next year as well. So, if he doesn't sign it until the start of the season, are you willing to pay a guy 9.9 million who is coming off a bad injury, who showed last year he was horrible in coverage and when he does come back it would be at least game 3-4 before he is up to speed and able to play the new defense? IMO, it was way over paying him at 9.9 million when he was going to play a 16 game schedule AFTER a TC of learning and getting back into football shape, but to pay what is likely a VERY marginal CB 9.9 million for 2/3 - 3/4 of a season is ridiculous. IMO, if two weeks before the start of the season he hasn't signed, pull the F-tag and save the money rather than just flushing it down the drain on someone who is yet to show he is back from injury and likely would be a divisive factor in the locker room. Just save the money and find some other players that could provide some depth elsewhere.

[NBT]

So let's assume Dunta doesn't sign his F-tagged contract? He won't get paid will he? And what is with the 7-15 deadline, will he be able to sign with some other team after that, or do we still have his rights?

[painekiller]

So let's assume Dunta doesn't sign his F-tagged contract? He won't get paid will he? And what is with the 7-15 deadline, will he be able to sign with some other team after that, or do we still have his rights?

IIRC if we pull the offer, then he is an unrestricted FA. Funny thing is in the middle of training camp not to many teams have $9M of cap money available.

I am with edo, but i also want to add the guys who are here have to be doing the job well enough that we would not miss Dunta. It is stupid to cut a player who is better then the ones you are starting.

[superbowlbound]

While I agree that 9.9 mil for a crappy version of dunta is ridiculous, I'd much rather pay him than just let him walk because he pitched a fit. This team has let every single player that wanted to be elsewhere just go, as a gesture of goodwill in hopes of luring free agents. Well how has that worked out?

Besides, I think Dunta has to know that it's not in his best interest to hold out too too long. I'm thinking he shows up by the second week of preseason. He's gotta be looking at this season as a chance to audition for the rest of the league, and regardless of how much of the old scheme Bush is keeping, there will undoubtedly be new wrinkles that he'll have to learn, and a month of getting burned worse than usual certainly won't help him get paid.

Also, I've grown so tired of this situation, and have soured on Dunta so much, that I didn't even say anything to him when I saw him at the gas station a couple days ago. Seeing him actually made me angry and a little physically sick. I found that strange. He used to be my favorite.

[Keith]

I'm gonna predict that Dunta signs his tender this week. Julius Peppers has signed his, Karlos Dansby has signed his, Antonio Bryant has signed his... There are only three F-tagged players unsigned including Robinson. Terrell Suggs is supposedly close to a long-term deal. Like Dunta here, O.J. Atogwe is still waiting for what the Rams will do (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nflnation/0-8-53/Why-Atogwe-hasn-t-signed-Rams--franchise-offer.html) (though he has attended OTAs and mini-camp).

It wouldn't surprise me at all though if the Texans left Robinson with no choice but to sign his tender. And in retrospect, if there are still lingering concerns about Robinson's health, then he missed a golden opportunity to start putting those to rest by skipping OTAs. The team probably isn't likely to rescind the F-tag like the Seahawks did with Leroy Hill (mostly because the Texans didn't pick a CB in round 1 like Seattle did in picking a LB), but it's possible.

Hard to say what kind of offer Robinson would get on the open market this close to training camp. The $10 million guaranteed now with the possibility of still getting a huge bonus next season is not a bad option for him.

So to me, the drama will be whether the team really makes any final effort to sign Dunta long-term, but I just think it's a slim possibility. The Texans don't need the cap room, and the $10 million or so that will be guaranteed to Dunta, with a chance for roughly $12 million guaranteed next year as a 2nd-year F-tag... well, it's not the end of the world for Robinson, either.

And that should be okay for both sides, at least for this year. Cooler heads ought to prevail here, and imo fans lashing out against Dunta should probably take more of a wait-and-see position for the time being. Oh, and if I were Robinson, I'd probably find new representation if no long-term deal is signed by July 15, too.

[dadmg]

So let's assume Dunta doesn't sign his F-tagged contract? He won't get paid will he? And what is with the 7-15 deadline, will he be able to sign with some other team after that, or do we still have his rights?

The July 15 deadline is just to sign franchised players to new contracts - after that point no new deals can be negotiated until the end of the season. The franchise tender is still out there and will remain so.

[bckey]

The franchise tender is still out there and will remain so.

Unless the Texans decide to take it off the table. They may think that it might not be worth almost 10 million for a guy coming off injury. If he skips all of training camp and possibly pre-season he wouldn't even be ready for the first couple of regular season games. I wouldn't blame the Texans if they pull the franchise tag off the table after the 15th.

[Keith]

Stephanie has a new post on her convo with a Football Outsiders writer, and the writer is not very complimentary of Dunta Robinson.

By our statistics, Dunta Robinson was the Texans' worst corner last year. ...

Teams were successful (picking up 40% of the needed yardage to move the chains on first down, 60% on second down, or 100% on third or fourth down) throwing the ball at him on 56% of their attempts. That placed Robinson 69th amongst corners. He allowed 8.9 yards per attempt -- that's 78th. He only broke up six of the 51 passes thrown at him. ...

http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/07/talking_texans_with_football_o.html

More insight there on Jacques Reeves and Fred Bennett, too. Interesting stuff since stats are only part of the picture when it comes to evaluating cornerbacks.

I don't think anyone debates that Robinson was rusty coming back from injury last year. The debate is just how much better he will be in 2009 and beyond.

[Arky]

..... Interesting stuff since stats are only part of the picture ......

Best sentence I've read all week. I don't need stats to tell me Dunta kinda sucked last year - I could see it with my eyes. Football Outsiders, KC Joyner, et al, while I respect their work, it is just another viewpoint - just another stat of many. I am a stathead myself but there's only so much that can be gleaned from stats....

Dunta supporters will tell you the team was 7-4 when he played. And that should count for something but it's not like Dunta was out there winning and losing those games by himself. They were also 4-2 when Adibi played so what does that say?

[dadmg]

Stephanie has a new post on her convo with a Football Outsiders writer, and the writer is not very complimentary of Dunta Robinson.



http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/07/talking_texans_with_football_o.html

More insight there on Jacques Reeves and Fred Bennett, too. Interesting stuff since stats are only part of the picture when it comes to evaluating cornerbacks.

I don't think anyone debates that Robinson was rusty coming back from injury last year. The debate is just how much better he will be in 2009 and beyond.

Here's some more numbers from FO, for the corners talked about, for additional context:

Dunta Robinson
2005:
Pass Success Rate: 52% (41st in the league)
Adjusted Passing Yards/Attempt: 7.7 (52nd)

2006:
Pass Success Rate: 55% (20th)
Adjusted Passing Yards/Attempt: 7.0 (30th)

2007:
Pass Success Rate: 57% (9th)
Adjusted Passing Yards/Attempt: 7.7 (51st)

2008:
Pass Success Rate: 44% (69th)
Adjusted Passing Yards/Attempt: 8.9 (78th)

Jacque Reeves
2007 (First year with enough playing time to qualify):
Pass Success Rate: 47% (53rd)
Adjusted Passing Yards/Attempt: 8.1 (56th)

2008:
Pass Success Rate: 54% (28th)
Adjusted Passing Yards/Attempt: 8.0 (57th)


Fred Bennett
2007:
Pass Success Rate: 61% (2nd in the NFL)
Adjusted Passing Yards/Attempt: 4.4 (1st)

2008:
Pass Success Rate: 46% (58th)
Adjusted Passing Yards/Attempt: 7.9 (52nd)

Here's what Ned Macey wrote about the Texans secondary in the 2009 Football Outsiders Almanac:

"Both of Houston’s corners are question marks: one due to health, the other to inconsistency. For the second
consecutive season, franchise cornerback Dunta Robinson missed extensive time due to injuries. Robinson was
never physically right all year, and his performance suffered as a result. Still, Robinson has exceptional cover
skills and a track record of success. If he is fully healthy, he provides the Texans with an outstanding top cornerback.
After 2007, we felt that the Texans would have an outstanding cornerback duo because rookie Fred Bennett
dominated our charting statistics. By his second year, however, it was clear that teams had studied film and
figured out what kind of receivers and routes they could use to attack Bennett. As a result, Bennett was terrible
early on, and Gary Kubiak demoted him to nickelback after just three weeks, although Bennett did improve after
that. The one cornerback who started all 16 games — and is likely to be starting alongside Robinson in 2009
— was free-agent pickup Jacques Reeves, a league-average player who is reasonable on short stuff but gives
up too many big plays deep. The Texans increased their depth at the draft by using a fourth-round pick on New
Mexico’s Glover Quin, a physical corner who could excel in the slot, although some project him to eventually
be a safety. They also added undersized but speedy cornerback Brice McCain out of Utah in the sixth round.
At safety, the Texans have made good use of former New England cornerback Eugene Wilson. Wilson plays it
safe at times, but he is fundamentally sound in coverage. Nick Ferguson, on the other hand, was an unmitigated
disaster, average as a run defender but consistently abused in coverage. The Texans failed to find an impact upgrade
this offseason and will probably go with 2007 fifth-rounder Brandon Harrison as this year’s starter. He’s
better in coverage but could not beat out Ferguson last season. The other possibilities including moving Quin to
safety this season or hoping that seventh-round pick Troy Nolan out of Arizona State is ready to contribute as a
rookie. The Quin move is obviously more intriguing, and if he shifts to safety in training camp, it is clear that
the Texans realize they have a problem."

(since I'm quoting a large chunk of text, I feel obligated to put in a quick plug: the FO Almanac is available in PDF form on the Football Outsiders website for $12. I'm on page 185 of 558 so far: tis interesting stuff, as always)

[dadmg]

Dunta supporters will tell you the team was 7-4 when he played. And that should count for something but it's not like Dunta was out there winning and losing those games by himself. They were also 4-2 when Adibi played so what does that say?

I'm a Dunta advocate, but I think that's an extremely weak argument. Then again, I roll my eyes whenever I hear how many "wins" a quarterback has. Pretty much the same argument and its a lame one no matter what. You pretty much nailed it: teams win, not individual players.

[nunusguy]

When D-Rob returned last year he was clearly only a shadow of hisself preinjury physically speaking, but nevertheless his rapid recover/rehab and return was remarkable and he was very positive for team chemistry, as usual.
But I dunno how D-Rob can be a positve element in the locker room this year, as by now it should be obvious to all that he's very bitter about the Texans.
I honestly dunno about giving this guy 10 million with whats been happening and given what also has to be significant doubt about his physical condidtion since they have not even seen him jog for months ? Guess we'll find out by midnight Wednesday though ?

[WMH]

Is 4:00 PM, EST a magic time for Dunta to either sign the tender or a long term deal? I have seen/read some things that lead me to believe that, but then I have seen some others that make me go :confused:

Anybody got any insight....in English?

[Bigtinylittle]

[QUOTE=dadmg;12218]
2008:
The one cornerback who started all 16 games — and is likely to be starting alongside Robinson in 2009
— was free-agent pickup Jacques Reeves, a league-average player who is reasonable on short stuff but gives
up too many big plays deep.

Reeves is probably the corner on the Texans who would benefit most from a stronger pass rush by our front seven. Long routes take a lot of time to develope, and with a strong rush, the time just isn't there.

To me, Robinson's greatest drawback is his height. I have seen taller receivers abuse him even when he had them covered. He's probably not the kind of guy you want covering a fade route to a 6'4" receiver in the end zone. This drawback is only going to get worse over time since the trend seems to be for new receivers into the league being taller and taller.

[Mike]

The Ravens locked up Suggs. Two more hours to get a deal done, and we all know that a deal with Dunta is not happening, not matter how much us eternal optomists have held out any hope.

[barrett]

This deadline just means we don't sign him to a long term deal this year. It does not affect the franchise tag in any way. He still has no choice but to sign the tender or not get paid.

[Keith]

Is 4:00 PM, EST a magic time for Dunta to either sign the tender or a long term deal? It's a deadline to sign a long-term deal. Once it passes, both sides will have to wait until after the season to reopen long-term contract negotiations.

The Ravens locked up Suggs. Two more hours to get a deal done, and we all know that a deal with Dunta is not happening, not matter how much us eternal optomists have held out any hope.
Atogwe is signing his tender (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-07-15/atogwe-expected-sign-1-year-deal-rams).

Dunta is the last of the F-tagged mohicans...

[painekiller]

It's a deadline to sign a long-term deal. Once it passes, both sides will have to wait until after the season to reopen long-term contract negotiations.


Atogwe is signing his tender (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-07-15/atogwe-expected-sign-1-year-deal-rams).

Dunta is the last of the F-tagged mohicans...

Like Lance Z says in his latest column (http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2009/07/enjoy_dunta_robinson_in_a_texa.html), good bye Dunta. One and done is what we should expect.

That is why I say trade the guy. Let him go.

[WMH]

Can they negotiate/sign an extension during the season?

[Keith]

Can they negotiate/sign an extension during the season?
Nope.

Like Lance Z says in his latest column (http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2009/07/enjoy_dunta_robinson_in_a_texa.html), good bye Dunta. One and done is what we should expect.

That is why I say trade the guy. Let him go.
No, no, no. He plays 2009 with the Texans as a F-tag. Then tag his butt again next February THEN trade him. That is the proper order.

And it seems EVERYONE is basing their dislike of Dunta based on his 2008 performance. Here's the deal - he returned ahead of schedule from devastating injurIES... proving his heart and desire for the team we love, and that he was at least serviceable (i.e. better than Bennett, better than Molden, better than Petey) means he is worth using the f-tag on this season to see if he can return to his 2007 form (which imo was BETTER than his rookie season).

I am more convinced than ever that the best option for all as it stands right now is for Dunta to sign his tender this year and for him to report to camp on time.

[Mike]

I really wish that we knew the true story about the negotiations. I love Dunta, he is the heart and soul of this team. Not sure how much damage has been done, but I am hoping that they can come to a reasonable deal
for both sides, and #23 stays here. Now onto getting #59 and #81 deals to keep them here for a long, long time as well as signing the draftees.

His heart and character should not be questioned as Keith indicates.

[barrett]

I hope Dunta has a great season this year. Hopefully the Injury is all the way behind him and he is back to being a good starting NFL CB. If he is then I hope he gets paid. I don't care who pays him. Either we give him the long term deal after seeing him play at a high level. Or we trade him after the year to another team after tagging him again. Either way it is clear that using the tag and keeping him is the #1 option.

To trade him right now, we'd need some other team to give him the long term deal he is seeking from us. Otherwise he won't sign the tender to get traded and another team won't give anything up for a guy without knowing they can keep him. He is basically untradable right now unless some other team is willing to come along and pay him a big long term deal AND give us fair compensation. That's not happening. This means we keep him or we let him walk.

[Keith]

No deal. Check this from the chron clip below though:The last time Robinson spoke he said he was prepared to sit out training camp and part of the season.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6531114.html

Missing any part of the regular season would be beyond stupid.

Robinson's biggest play here has to be to get the Texans to write into his agreement that he will not be franchised in 2010. That, plus maybe a freakish risk-averse tendency to another injury, is the only thing I can think of that would keep Robinson from signing his tender right now.

Honestly though, if he misses training camp, I start to wonder about rescinding the tender altogether. Part of what I'm paying Robinson for in the $10 million is his on-field leadership, and if he isn't there, then that's a big negative toward his 2009 value.

[painekiller]

Honestly though, if he misses training camp, I start to wonder about rescinding the tender altogether. Part of what I'm paying Robinson for in the $10 million is his on-field leadership, and if he isn't there, then that's a big negative toward his 2009 value.

That is why I have been saying to trade him, let him shop himself. Take a 1st or a 2nd round pick, he will not help you missing all of camp, and then having to sit out. His advisers are playing this all wrong.

[barrett]

That is why I have been saying to trade him, let him shop himself. Take a 1st or a 2nd round pick, he will not help you missing all of camp, and then having to sit out. His advisers are playing this all wrong.

Do you really think another team is going to give up a 1st or 2nd rounder for the right to pay $30 gauranteed to a CB coming off of injury? There is nobody who wants him right now if it is going to cost a draft pick and a new contract at the $$$ he is talking.

[nunusguy]

OK so the drop-dead date & time for the Texans & Robinson to negotitate a new contract passed yesterday at 3 PM local time. For the sake of clarification - if the Texans & Robinson mutually agree can a third-party come in and negotiate with Robinson at this time for a long-term deal, assuming the consideration that the other team would give to the Texans (draft-pick(s), player(s), etc.), would be acceptable to them ? Or can no one
negotiate a long-term contract with Robinson until the completion of the 2009season ?

[NBT]

Robinson is certainly not helping his own cause that's for sure, by holding out and being uncommunicative.

[edo783]

Honestly though, if he misses training camp, I start to wonder about rescinding the tender altogether. Part of what I'm paying Robinson for in the $10 million is his on-field leadership, and if he isn't there, then that's a big negative toward his 2009 value.

That is the conclusion I came to a couple of weeks ago. Even if he were to sign for the first game, he wouldn't really be available until week 3-4. Given that, we will in effect be paying 12 million for him. Ask yourself, is there anyway on Gods green earth Dunta is worth that? Also factor in the negatives of the hold out and a very likely negative person in the locker room. I could very easily see him doing his best to do everything he could to undermine what any of the coaches are trying to do. He is pissed (right or wrong about it) he didn't get to go to FA or get the mega contract and isn't to be trusted to be a team player at this point. IMO, if he hasn't signed by at least 2 weeks before the start of the season, pull the offer, put the money saved to use and get DeMeco signed and pick up a could of depth guys.

[idymoe]

Just saw this on KFFL.com:

Jason La Canfora, of the NFL Network, reports Houston Texans CB Dunta Robinson is prepared to not report to training camp on time and hold out for perhaps longer, according to a source.



I just don't like this. Even if the Texans f-tag Dunta next year also, that's over 20 million for two years.

[papabear]

Just saw this on KFFL.com:

Jason La Canfora, of the NFL Network, reports Houston Texans CB Dunta Robinson is prepared to not report to training camp on time and hold out for perhaps longer, according to a source.



I just don't like this. Even if the Texans f-tag Dunta next year also, that's over 20 million for two years.


not reporting to training camp was pretty much a given at this point

[NBT]

He doesn't want to play or report for close to ten big ones then fine, let him sit out all TC and into the season as he threatens to do. Then freeze him, and let him see how he likes sitting and griping and not getting paid. I would send him a voided check for $625.000 each game to see what he is missing by holding out!