My Lessons for next year

[painekiller]

Lesson #1 - The player we take in the 1st is not going to be a guy we have visited with. Plus he will be someone I am not happy with for one reason or another.

Lesson #2 - RB will be drafted every draft. Wait throw out that lesson, we can get by by with an UDFA or two.

Lesson #3 - Even with a ton of research, Rick Smith will find guys I have not heard of to draft.

Lesson #4 Gibbs does know what he is doing

Evaluation
I am not a fan of Cushing, but I respect ability and his experience on the field.5

[painekiller]

Another thing I noticed, having more than one guy with talent is a good thing. Do not mistake a guy making a lot of tackles for a guy making offenses account for him. Cushing is a huge upgrade .


We are going to be able to bring Barwin along at the slower pace that will allow him to succeed. He should also be a special teams monster.

If Caldwell plays this year that is a bonis, it should be next season before he get a shot at starting. BTW he can be the OC in a few years, if injuries do force him to be sooner.

I understand the blocking TE, but the kid from Rice? He was to good to pass? This must be the year of the TE. I am not knocking his talent, he has a ton of it was supposed to be a 2nd rounder iirc. Another super special teamer...

[nero THE zero]

Another thing Smithiak seems to like to do is draft a high-potential-project fairly high in the draft. They've done it with Amobi, Jacoby, Molden, and now Barwin.

They also seem to like small school guys and guys from the Carolinas/VA. I was actually surprised that we went to the SW a couple of times in this draft. I was starting to think we didn't have scouts that worked that area of the country.

[Nconroe]

not sure if this is valid observtion, but seems the spots where we have a veteran complaining about wanting a better, updated contract even if he is not yet an RFA or FA, is where we drafted and brought in FA, maybe just depth or maybe a backup plan. Sometimes giving the boss a hard time is not a good negotiating tactic even if it is just business, things get personal real easy.

so, these aren't seen as draft needs yet, but maybe will be. is this what NE does. they seem to always get these compensatory draft picks and keep rebuilding while letting seeming good plyers go as FA. and they fill in with a few over the hill FA that know how to play smart and just want to win. easier to do when you have that winning track record and proven QB on your side.

and Smithiak do seem to find guys we all think are like rank 30 at their position by draft analysts, but then you start looking at their background and they have a good chance to succeed in nfl, as good a chance as anyone . Our first three picks were players ranked near those spots, below that seemed reaches by most boards, but we'll see. one extra TE pick doesn't bother me since we did seem to stress flexibility in our choices this year and the value seemed obvious for the pick. always could be trade if someone needs this position, which seemed to be a strategy of previous regime, ie. draft for trade value, not sure that worked to well.

[nunusguy]

Another thing Smithiak seems to like to do is draft a high-potential-project fairly high in the draft. They've done it with Amobi, Jacoby, Molden, and now Barwin.

Going into the Draft the Texans biggest top priority need arguably was finding an edge-rusher to play at the other end of the DLine from Mario in passing situations: Barwin, an unpolished but nevertheless talented pass-rusher, was drafted to meet that need now, this year.

[nero THE zero]

Going into the Draft the Texans biggest top priority need arguably was finding an edge-rusher to play at the other end of the DLine from Mario in passing situations: Barwin, an unpolished but nevertheless talented pass-rusher, was drafted to meet that need now, this year.
Barwin has played one year as a DE in the Big East.

Are you trying to say he's not a project?

[barrett]

Barwin has played one year as a DE in the Big East.

Are you trying to say he's not a project?

A guy who had double digit sacks in a major conference can't be called a project.

Now you can say he has only started reaching his potential due to his inexperience at the position, but he has production at that spot already. He is not a project.

[nero THE zero]

A guy who had double digit sacks in a major conference can't be called a project.

Now you can say he has only started reaching his potential due to his inexperience at the position, but he has production at that spot already. He is not a project.
He's played the position for one year. Being inexperienced inherently means that he's a project, the two things are synonymous.

Read his scouting profiles, everyone of them is littered with the words raw and potential. That means he's a project.

You can argue semantics all you want. But my point still stands; Another thing Smithiak seems to like to do is draft a high-potential-project/raw/inexperienced (players) fairly high in the draft. They've done it with Amobi, Jacoby, Molden, and now Barwin.

Tomato:tomato

[barrett]

He's played the position for one year. Being inexperienced inherently means that he's a project, the two things are synonymous.

Read his scouting profiles, everyone of them is littered with the words raw and potential. That means he's a project.

You can argue semantics all you want. But my point still stands; Another thing Smithiak seems to like to do is draft a high-potential-project/raw/inexperienced (players) fairly high in the draft. They've done it with Amobi, Jacoby, Molden, and now Barwin.

Tomato:tomato

A project is a guy who is drafted based on what you are projecting, not based on what you have seen. And because it's based on projections, it is a guy who you are prepared to wait on for development.

Barwin on the other hand was the team MVP for a team that made it to the BCS, 1st team Big East (led the conference in sacks), and an All-American. You cannot be an All-American DE and be considered a project at that same position.

[Joshua]

I think you guys are probably talking past each other a little bit and both have a point. Clearly, Barwin produced in college, although it is a limited sample size of 1 year. However, by most accounts, he produced without being technically sound, with a limited number of pass rush moves, and with just very little experience at the position in general. I don't think it's wrong to assume that to be successful in the NFL, one generally needs more than athleticism and some technical proficiency at your position is necessary (I seem to recall numerous discussions of Mario's lack of pass rushing moves (swim, spin, etc.) early on). Thus, I don't think it's wrong to categorize Barwin as a project in that sense. However, he did produce at a high level in college without much experience at the position which is encouraging.

[nero THE zero]

A project is a guy who is drafted based on what you are projecting, not based on what you have seen. And because it's based on projections, it is a guy who you are prepared to wait on for development.

Barwin on the other hand was the team MVP for a team that made it to the BCS, 1st team Big East (led the conference in sacks), and an All-American. You cannot be an All-American DE and be considered a project at that same position.

We're working off different definitions of "project."

To me, a project is a guy who takes an extraordinary amount of work, for a number of possible reasons, to develop to realize his potential. It could be because he was new to/inexperienced at his position (ie. Barwin), was extremely young (ie. Amobi), or played in a small conference against inferior competition (ie. Jacoby.)

Again, that's not to say that Barwin won't succeed in the NFL. But, it is going to take more work on Barwin to develop his pass rushing skills and DE acumen because of his lack of experience at the position. That is, by definition, a project.

Again; You can argue semantics all you want. But my point still stands; Another thing Smithiak seems to like to do is draft a high-potential-project/raw/inexperienced (players) fairly high in the draft. They've done it with Amobi, Jacoby, Molden, and now Barwin.

Tomato:tomato

[barrett]

We're working off different definitions of "project."

To me, a project is a guy who takes an extraordinary amount of work, for a number of possible reasons, to develop to realize his potential. It could be because he was new to/inexperienced at his position (ie. Barwin), was extremely young (ie. Amobi), or played in a small conference against inferior competition (ie. Jacoby.)

Again, that's not to say that Barwin won't succeed in the NFL. But, it is going to take more work on Barwin to develop his pass rushing skills and DE acumen because of his lack of experience at the position. That is, by definition, a project.

Again; You can argue semantics all you want. But my point still stands; Another thing Smithiak seems to like to do is draft a high-potential-project/raw/inexperienced (players) fairly high in the draft. They've done it with Amobi, Jacoby, Molden, and now Barwin.

Tomato:tomato

I agree it will take a lot of work for him to reach his potential, but name me the DE taken who will not take a lot of work.

To me, Barwin can come in and have an impact as a situational rusher completely "as is." His current skill set may be limited in regards to what it may become, but I think he can get after the QB this year before any work other than training camp. That is why I think you can't term him a project.

As for the idea that Smith likes players with high risk/reward (more accurate than "project" with the guys you named), I agree somewhat. Amobi and JJ fit this mold (and even though you didn't name him so does Duane Brown).

But then in the first round this year we went with a very safe and plain pick of Cushing over a number of players who appeared to have a higher ceiling. I think every team balances these things and I don't see the Texans doing it any more often than the rest of the league. So I agree we are likely to see a risky/project type pick somewhere in each draft, but I think you see those in most team's drafts most years.

[jaimeg]

.

Lesson #2 - RB will be drafted every draft. Wait throw out that lesson, we can get by by with an UDFA or two.


Lesson #4 Gibbs does know what he is doing

5

Kubiaks (like Denvers' Shannahan-Gibbs system) downfall is never drafting a running back early (1st or 2nd round)

These systems rely on being lucky with picks (Slaton- Terrell Davis).

If the system is so good wouldn't it be reasonable to expect a talented, good vision 1st or 2nd rounder to get 2000 yards.

[nero THE zero]

Kubiaks (like Denvers' Shannahan-Gibbs system) downfall is never drafting a running back early (1st or 2nd round)

These systems rely on being lucky with picks (Slaton- Terrell Davis).

If the system is so good wouldn't it be reasonable to expect a talented, good vision 1st or 2nd rounder to get 2000 yards.

If that's true, explain Kubiak's attempt to trade into the first round in 2006 for DeAngelo Williams.

[nunusguy]

We're working off different definitions of "project."

To me, a project is a guy who takes an extraordinary amount of work, for a number of possible reasons, to develop to realize his potential. It could be because he was new to/inexperienced at his position (ie. Barwin), was extremely young (ie. Amobi), or played in a small conference against inferior competition (ie. Jacoby.)

Again, that's not to say that Barwin won't succeed in the NFL. But, it is going to take more work on Barwin to develop his pass rushing skills and DE acumen because of his lack of experience at the position. That is, by definition, a project.

Again; You can argue semantics all you want. But my point still stands; Another thing Smithiak seems to like to do is draft a high-potential-project/raw/inexperienced (players) fairly high in the draft. They've done it with Amobi, Jacoby, Molden, and now Barwin.

Tomato:tomato
I hear you, but I think what I'm trying to say is that we now expect him to be productive based up his college performance as a pass-rusher while still having serious upside out there. Barret & others probably put it better than me.
Now regarding his play on other downs in a series, yea he's a project there for sure. I'd guess the Texans aren't even totally for sure if they play him as an OLB or DE in those situations ?

[barrett]

Kubiaks (like Denvers' Shannahan-Gibbs system) downfall is never drafting a running back early (1st or 2nd round)

These systems rely on being lucky with picks (Slaton- Terrell Davis).

If the system is so good wouldn't it be reasonable to expect a talented, good vision 1st or 2nd rounder to get 2000 yards.

Can you explain how that is the downfall of these teams. With Denver it seems to have worked very well. And with the Texans it resulted in Slaton. You can call it lucky, but if you do, how about an explanation for how this is the "downfall" of a team that ran the ball as well as anyone for over a decade.

[NBT]

Another thing I noticed, having more than one guy with talent is a good thing. Do not mistake a guy making a lot of tackles for a guy making offenses account for him. Cushing is a huge upgrade .


We are going to be able to bring Barwin along at the slower pace that will allow him to succeed. He should also be a special teams monster.

If Caldwell plays this year that is a bonis, it should be next season before he get a shot at starting. BTW he can be the OC in a few years, if injuries do force him to be sooner.

I understand the blocking TE, but the kid from Rice? He was to good to pass? This must be the year of the TE. I am not knocking his talent, he has a ton of it was supposed to be a 2nd rounder iirc. Another super special teamer...

Not sure why you were not a fan of Cushing. He wasn't my first choice either until I sat down and thought about just what did we need at OLB. No it wasn't the WILL, it was the SAM, thus the Cushings pick was a natural. Mathews could have played SAM, but his best position, IMOG is the WILL.

As for why draft two TE's in this Draft? I think as much as anything else, it was to send a plain message to OD that he is not the only TE out there. I think the NFL is going to tighten up in general on a team's FA's. This means OD and Mr. Robinson, who just may end up in another neighborhood. JMO, of course.

[Roy P]

If that's true, explain Kubiak's attempt to trade into the first round in 2006 for DeAngelo Williams.

If I recall, Clinton Portis was drafted in the 2nd round, after William Green and T.J. Duckett were selected in the 1st round. A 2nd round pick isn't exactly waiting until the 2nd day of the draft and calling UDFAs. Also, it would appear that it was a 2nd round pick well spent and not the "downfall" of the Denver system. It is more a product of finding the right player for the system.

[jaimeg]

Can you explain how that is the downfall of these teams. With Denver it seems to have worked very well. And with the Texans it resulted in Slaton. You can call it lucky, but if you do, how about an explanation for how this is the "downfall" of a team that ran the ball as well as anyone for over a decade.

By downfall, I mean where is Shanahan now (out of work)?. Could he have won more than 2 championships? Isn't that the ultimate goal?

Ran the ball "well", but couldn't it have been even better?

[barrett]

By downfall, I mean where is Shanahan now (out of work)?. Could he have won more than 2 championships? Isn't that the ultimate goal?

Ran the ball "well", but couldn't it have been even better?

Are you serious? They were the top offense and top running team over his tenure in Denver that included 2 superbowl wins. And you are going to sit with a straight face and say that their system is a failure because Shanahan only lasted 3 times as long as the average NFL coach. And only won 2 superbowls (which is 2nd best in the NFL over his tenure I believe). Genius.

I for one would love for the Texans to have the kind of "downfall" that results in a decade of high powered offense, winning, and multiple superbowls.

[jaimeg]

Are you serious? They were the top offense and top running team over his tenure in Denver that included 2 superbowl wins. And you are going to sit with a straight face and say that their system is a failure because Shanahan only lasted 3 times as long as the average NFL coach. And only won 2 superbowls (which is 2nd best in the NFL over his tenure I believe). Genius.

I for one would love for the Texans to have the kind of "downfall" that results in a decade of high powered offense, winning, and multiple superbowls.

I'm not saying their system is a failure, I am just saying it could have been better. Yes they won two superbowls but Schaub is not Elway. I just believe that we're basically a turf toe away (Slaton) from being a 6-10 team.

[Roy P]

I just believe that we're basically a turf toe away (Slaton) from being a 6-10 team.

I am also concerned about Slaton's durability. Last season was a pleasant surprise, and perhaps I'm just a cynic, but I can envision a scenario where we overuse Slaton and expose him to possible injury. Ideally, I'd like to see Slaton getting about 15 touches per game. However, I'm not very confident that the other RBs on the roster can take on the other rushing attempts and have the offense not miss a beat. There is some hope about Foster and Johnson to make the roster and we may still be able to get another RB as a FA or in a trade. On a positive note, perhaps the additions of Caldwell and Hill will help keep the big powerful tacklers off of Slaton allowing him to take less impactful hits.

[nero THE zero]

I'm not saying their system is a failure, I am just saying it could have been better. Yes they won two superbowls but Schaub is not Elway. I just believe that we're basically a turf toe away (Slaton) from being a 6-10 team.

Your whole premise is flawed anyway. Kubiak has shown he is willing to draft RB in the high(est) rounds. Why don't you address that?

[barrett]

I'm not saying their system is a failure, I am just saying it could have been better. Yes they won two superbowls but Schaub is not Elway. I just believe that we're basically a turf toe away (Slaton) from being a 6-10 team.

Your logic is terrible though. You say they might have been better which is unrealisitic considering the success they achieved. But even if they could have done better, it wasn't RB that was holding them back. They were the top rushing team in the NFL during Shanahan's tenure.

By attempting to piggyback your legitimate concern over the Texans RB situation to the Broncos, you have ruined what could have been a valid point (we need help at RB). And I just don't understand what could have possessed you to put our running game issues at the feet of the two best running game coaches of modern NFL football (shanahan and gibbs).

With all of that said I too am concerned we don't have more at RB. I wish we'd drafted one (though not in the first two rounds). But it is the one position where it is still possible to easily upgrade. RBs are constantly cut and become available more often than any other position. Edgerin James just hit the market and has size and great durability. If not him, then I am confident we will find someone who can be a backup RB and carry the ball 10 times a game.

[Roy P]

RBs are constantly cut and become available more often than any other position. Edgerin James just hit the market and has size and great durability. If not him, then I am confident we will find someone who can be a backup RB and carry the ball 10 times a game.

Does anybody believe that Selvin Young could carry the ball 10 times a game? He was pretty effective in Denver a couple of years ago and he's only 25 years old.

[painekiller]

Every RB gets hurt, period. No matter what round you draft the guy he will be hurt at some point. Why guarantee a large amount of money to a guy that in most cases will not last more than 3 years.

Blaming Shanahan's job loss on not drafting a RB in the early rounds is showing a very low knowledge of the Denver trouble's and draft problem the last few years.

Shanahan wasted picks, and he did not ever give a defense time or the resources to develop.

It was time for him to go in Denver, but his replacement sure has made a ton of mistakes so far. Glad I am a Texans fan

[NBT]

Maybe we stole the genius behind Denver's drafting when we signed Rick Smith. He has certainly paid off for us.

[painekiller]

Maybe we stole the genius behind Denver's drafting when we signed Rick Smith. He has certainly paid off for us.

Go back and look at the drafts Denver had since they won the Super Bowl before saying they had anyone there that could be called genius.

[NBT]

You may be right, but he has certainly brought our drafting out of the dark ages.

[papabear]

You may be right, but he has certainly brought our drafting out of the dark ages.

I've got zero complaints so far, but based on the general rule that it takes three years to evaluate a draft class there really isn't a large enough sample size to have a good grip on Smith's drafts. Again,I have no complaints, and I do think he's made some good moves. It's safe to say that he's better than Casserly, but a big reason for that is that Kubiak and Smith appear to have a good working relationship. I'm not saying Casserly and Capers didn't get along, just that they never seemed to be on the same page personnel wise.

[NBT]

Kubiak and Smith do have a symbiotic relationship that certainly helps in their draft efforts. The reverse was true When Capers said do, that is what Casserly did. There was no dialogue, and very little assistant coaching or scout involvement, IMO.

[NBT]

Maybe Barwin is somewhat of a project, but then isn't Casey?

[Roy P]

Maybe Barwin is somewhat of a project, but then isn't Casey?

I don't think so. Barwin is an immediate pass-rusher to come in on 3rd downs because Antonio Smith is the 1st and 2nd down DE. So, Barwin is more of a specialist. Now, if they tinker a little and try him at the SAM and put Cushing at the WILL, then that would be a project.

[Nconroe]

Just wondering has Cushing ever played Mike?

[Roy P]

Just wondering has Cushing ever played Mike?

Nay, but we've got a guy named DeMeco.

[NBT]

I don't think so. Barwin is an immediate pass-rusher to come in on 3rd downs because Antonio Smith is the 1st and 2nd down DE. So, Barwin is more of a specialist. Now, if they tinker a little and try him at the SAM and put Cushing at the WILL, then that would be a project.

I think I said that about Barwin because a couple of guys on the main board were comparing Barwin to Peek and Babin. Maybe it was just the coaching but they never achieved their potential.

Doesn't Barwin backup Mario and not Smith?

[Roy P]

I think Barwin will be the DE opposite Mario on passing downs as Antoni Smith slides inside to the 3-Tech. Just my gut feeling, I don't have any evidence.

[painekiller]

I think Barwin will be the DE opposite Mario on passing downs as Antoni Smith slides inside to the 3-Tech. Just my gut feeling, I don't have any evidence.

There is evidence of that at the open practices. And I agree, this will be the main passing down DL.

[papabear]

There is evidence of that at the open practices. And I agree, this will be the main passing down DL.


Yep, that's what I saw at practice too. Barwin will come in on passing downs with Smith going inside.

[NBT]

Then I stand corrected. If that is the most effective combination, then I'm all for it.