View Full Version : Would You Give A 3rd Rounder For Jason Taylor?
HPF Bob
05-22-2008, 05:19 PM
Now that the Dolphins have pretty much declared Jason Taylor on the trading block, would you part with a third to bring him to Houston?
I would. I think he would be the edge rusher we keep hearing that we need. He's going to force opponents to account for him which will improve the games of Mario, Amobi and DeMeco. We could wind up with a D-line that will absolutely dominate up front which will mean better production from our porous secondary.
Yes, Taylor will be expensive and he may be on a bit of decline but I think he's going to disrupt a lot of pass plays and force more single blocking schemes for Mario and the others.
painekiller
05-22-2008, 11:13 PM
If I truly thought we where the 1st or 2nd best team in our division, and that we had a chance to go deep into the playoffs this year or next, then I would pull that trigger.
But we are currently 3rd or 4th in our division, and we have some other holes to plug before we are being talked about as a top AFC team, none bigger than this one granted.
Indy, NE, San Diego and Jacksonville are the current class of our conference. Jacksonville should have made the move for Taylor.
And I think we need that 3rd pick to play for us for the next 7 years, not the next couple.
Just my opinion.
painekiller
05-23-2008, 01:15 AM
Wanted to add, seems a few teams are interested in giving up a 4th, if you believe the reports on ESPN. There has been some talk also of conditional 3rds.
I have to agree with Bob, adding Taylor would give us our best DL to date, and a potential top 5 DL, maybe even top 3.
I still want to build for the long haul future, choosing to avoid the Drayton McClain practice of going for the short term big name, while selling off the future.
TheMatrix31
05-23-2008, 03:28 AM
I say we should definitely give a third rounder if that's all it takes to get Jason Taylor. He'd be a great mentor to Mario and having those two guys on the edge would be murder for any ppposing OL and QB. Have DeMeco back that line up and it'll just be filthy defense.
And hey, third in THIS division proved to be good enough to get a wild card spot in the playoffs last year. Wouldn't happen every year but I think that could be a move that would push us towards 10, 11 wins.
Of course, that'd just be me being optimistic.
no
eric winston, charles spencer, steve slaton, antwaun molden, jacoby jones. did i miss any of them? kubiak is TOO good with his 3rd round picks.
jason taylor is the prototypical "we need one more veteran guy on our defensive line for a championship caliber defense" and we would need him, a LB and a Safety or two to have that. let him dance elsewhere!
painekiller do not speak mcmoneybag's full name!!! that only GIVES him power!!! :D:D:D
papabear
05-23-2008, 08:22 AM
Jason Taylor is not the same player anymore. Of course he is still one of the best ends in league. He's been very durable for most of his career, but he also definitely has plans for after football. I don't see him playing for more than a couple of years....and its possible he could have a big decline in his play during that time.
I would love to have someone like him around for Mario....I just wouldn't want to lose a third round pick for him at this stage in hi career. I think the Dolphins screwed up by not moving him before or during the draft. Teams would have been more likely to deal then. Now the Dolphins are in the situation of HAVING to trade him....or risk having a very bad situation drag out over the whole season.
I would be happy if we got him....I would just prefer it if we did for a fourth round pick or later. Even fourth round picks can be very important to the long term "health" of a team.
Texan from KC
05-23-2008, 08:29 AM
no
eric winston, charles spencer, steve slaton, antwaun molden, jacoby jones. did i miss any of them? kubiak is TOO good with his 3rd round picks.
I see one starter, one guy who played two games (although I am not arguing about what could have been), one guy who we still know little about after a rookie campaign, and two guys who haven't even signed their rookie contracts yet. There could be 5 future Pro-Bowlers there, or there could be 4 guys who are off the team in 2-3 years just like Taylor would be.
Kubes and Smith are doing a tremendous job of finding talent through both the draft and FA, but let's not go overboard giving guys credit who haven't done anything yet.
As far as the trade goes, I think I'd do the 3rd rounder for Taylor, and I'd definitely do the 4th rounder. Not just for the talent, but for the presence he'd bring. The guys who are the core of our defense are all very young - Dunta's the veteran of the group, and he's only played 4 years. Taylor could help even after he's gone by leaving a legacy. Plus, after being dissed by the Fins, he ought to feel he's got something to prove at his next (and likely final) stop.
edo783
05-23-2008, 08:36 AM
Obviously a pick lower than a third would be better, but I think I would pull the trigger on this one with a third, but with conditions.
1. It is a short term contract - preferably 2 years, but would consider three.
2. It is structured such that we don't take a shot to the shorts cap wise if it doesn't workout and we have to cut him.
3. He make some sort of personal comitment to do at least 2 years if he is able to play. I know that has no force of law, but I would just like to hear that he will give it his best for 2 years. This is the thing that actually would worry me the most. I think he may allready have mentally left the game of football.
I see one starter, one guy who played two games (although I am not arguing about what could have been), one guy who we still know little about after a rookie campaign, and two guys who haven't even signed their rookie contracts yet. There could be 5 future Pro-Bowlers there, or there could be 4 guys who are off the team in 2-3 years just like Taylor would be.
Kubes and Smith are doing a tremendous job of finding talent through both the draft and FA, but let's not go overboard giving guys credit who haven't done anything yet.
well, you're going overboard with your reply homie. i said they were good 3rd round draft picks, not all-star future hall-of-famers. big difference. the biggest difference though, is that kubiak makes good use of his 3rd round picks. at least his guys have potential to be all-stars, maybe a HOFer comes out of it but i'm not betting on it. look at, for an easy example, casserly's 3rd round selections. fred weary, he's alright. charles hill, who? seth wand, sucked! dave ragone, worse than picking carr the year before! vernand morency, really? let's not forget the sweeping bust that took, among other things, a 3rd rounder to get babin.
the point is, kubiak's selections and coaching make a 3rd round worth much more than the end of jason taylor's career.
kravix
05-23-2008, 09:57 AM
I wouldnt be upset if we handed a 3rd rounder in for him, but at the same time I wouldnt do it. His tenure here would be very short, his contract is sure to be rather big, and we are no where near to 1 great player away from a championship. While I do think we can make the playoffs I dont see us as a Superbowl team yet. (I am entitled to change this opinion after the season starts and we have a better evaluation).
A fourth rounder I would jump on, but that 4th would have to be a conditional 3rd at least IMO, which brings me back to point one.
Yes it would be exiting, yes he would make the def better, and yes I would love to watch him and Mario destroy offenses. But the long term value isnt there.
cadams
05-23-2008, 10:28 AM
i would definitely give up a 3rd for him, i think he has got at least 3 years left in him, and if he plays around the same level he did last year (11 sacks i bleieve) it would make a HUGE difference with our defense.
Texan from KC
05-23-2008, 10:37 AM
the point is, kubiak's selections and coaching make a 3rd round worth much more than the end of jason taylor's career.
I'm not arguing about the astuteness of the current Texans brain-trust. In fact, you could turn that around and point out that as good as I (actually it should be we) think are last three drafts were (and I think the '06 draft is borderline historic), in two of those drafts we didn't have a 2nd round pick. Still good drafts in all cases. If they were good with no 2nd round pick, I don't think a '09 draft without a 3rd rounder would be a bad thing at all if we can replace that 3rd rounder with a former DPoY who still has something left in the tank.
Let's say that Kubes is here for another 10 years (maybe realistic, maybe not). Given the sheer amount of 3rd round picks he's going to be making over that time, there will be some picks that don't turn out. With Taylor, you've got a pretty good idea of what you're getting, and it aint bad.
As much as Taylor would bring on the field, I think he would add locker room intangibles that could go on well after his retirement. I've heard (and believe) the comment that going from 8-8 to 10-6 is far more difficult than going from 6-10 to 8-8. I think Taylor gives us a better chance of making that jump this year, and I think that's worth alot (up to and including a 3rd round pick).
HPF Bob
05-23-2008, 10:48 AM
Imagine if we could have shanghaied a third for Sage Rosenfels, this decision would be easier. (No, the Dolphins probably wouldn't do a Sage-for-Taylor trade, in part because the Fins now have two high picks spent on QBs).
papabear
05-23-2008, 11:01 AM
I can see both sides to this debate, but the more I think about it the more I think the phins screwed up by not working a little harder to get something done by draft day.
Texan from KC
05-23-2008, 11:15 AM
I can see both sides to this debate, but the more I think about it the more I think the phins screwed up by not working a little harder to get something done by draft day.
QFT
Imagine that - The Big Tuna making a mistake.
edo783
05-23-2008, 01:12 PM
QFT
Imagine that - The Big Tuna making a mistake.
Tuna probably didn't believe it wouldn't workout and that he could "Manhandle" Jason. Jason sees himself out of football either now or in the very near future and didn't give a rip what Tuna wanted or thought.
I'm not arguing about the astuteness of the current Texans brain-trust.:D In fact, you could turn that around and point out that as good as I (actually it should be we) think are last three drafts were (and I think the '06 draft is borderline historic:D), in two of those drafts we didn't have a 2nd round pick.:D Still good drafts in all cases.:D If they were good with no 2nd round pick, I don't think a '09 draft without a 3rd rounder would be a bad thing at all if we can replace that 3rd rounder with a former DPoY who still has something left in the tank.:mad:
Let's say that Kubes is here for another 10 years:D (maybe realistic, maybe not). Given the sheer amount of 3rd round picks he's going to be making over that time, there will be some picks that don't turn out. With Taylor, you've got a pretty good idea of what you're getting, and it aint bad.
As much as Taylor would bring on the field, I think he would add locker room intangibles that could go on well after his retirement.:mad: I've heard (and believe) the comment that going from 8-8 to 10-6 is far more difficult than going from 6-10 to 8-8.:D I think Taylor gives us a better chance of making that jump this year, and I think that's worth alot (up to and including a 3rd round pick).:mad:
i just smilied my responses to reading haha...easy, quick, and above all no explaining!!!
nah, i'm not belichick, i'll talk.
i don't buy the "kubiak will have plenty of 3rd rounds in his tenure" or the "well we didn't have a 2nd and it was fine" bits. neither is a reason to give up a 3rd for a 33 year old, 11 year vet who has one foot out the door to his hollywood interests but may come back to play for a SUPER BOWL CONTENDER being that he is the "superstar vet looking for one last chance on a team that is one player away" type. besides, not having a 2nd round the last two years has been brutality on wheels -and i'm just a fan- imagine these guys straining over it for months and months.
probably not the hell it used to be, but he would bring some hellraising defense.
the locker-room leadership thing has always been a mystery to me. some people think it's important while others not so much. i think it's important, but i also believe it has more to do with who is setting the tone for the locker room. maybe it is the players, but i look at how this team is turning around and i say it's kubiak. but nobody really knows so...whatev.
i see the good in taylor man, i really do. great guy, consumate professional, all-pro player, hellraiser, emotional leader but i look at what is being given up and i just think it's too much to get him. not that any of this matters, because i don't think parcells will let him go anywhere.
Tuna probably didn't believe it wouldn't workout and that he could "Manhandle" Jason. Jason sees himself out of football either now or in the very near future and didn't give a rip what Tuna wanted or thought.
i think that's the "no ego, no superstars" mentality that parcells is known for. not always nice, but i think it's the right thing for him to do.
now taylor has to do what's right for him. play for tuna or go home.
Texan from KC
05-23-2008, 03:02 PM
i just smilied my responses to reading haha...easy, quick, and above all no explaining!!!
nah, i'm not belichick, i'll talk.
i don't buy the "kubiak will have plenty of 3rd rounds in his tenure" or the "well we didn't have a 2nd and it was fine" bits. neither is a reason to give up a 3rd for a 33 year old, 11 year vet who has one foot out the door to his hollywood interests but may come back to play for a SUPER BOWL CONTENDER being that he is the "superstar vet looking for one last chance on a team that is one player away" type. besides, not having a 2nd round the last two years has been brutality on wheels -and i'm just a fan- imagine these guys straining over it for months and months.
probably not the hell it used to be, but he would bring some hellraising defense.
the locker-room leadership thing has always been a mystery to me. some people think it's important while others not so much. i think it's important, but i also believe it has more to do with who is setting the tone for the locker room. maybe it is the players, but i look at how this team is turning around and i say it's kubiak. but nobody really knows so...whatev.
i see the good in taylor man, i really do. great guy, consumate professional, all-pro player, hellraiser, emotional leader but i look at what is being given up and i just think it's too much to get him. not that any of this matters, because i don't think parcells will let him go anywhere.
Sounds like we basically have a difference of opinion on how well and how long JT's going to play. I think he's got at least a couple of years of high-level playing (with a change of scenery anyway). I think there's still a small chance of him being back with the Dolphins, but I think he'll be a man on a mission if he's traded or cut.
And trust me, in two/three years if we can look at Kubiak's list of 3rd round picks and find as few "busts" as you clearly believe we will, I'll be happier than you could know.
HPF Bob
05-23-2008, 06:11 PM
An even more fun idea would be a trade for Taylor *and* Ricky Williams. I don't know what the cap ramifications would be (probably sucks worse for the Dolphins) but the Texans would be getting two former All-Pros on the cheap that could be spectacular with a change of scenery.
I'm still talking about just a third-rounder here but Tuna might like the idea of unloading two albatrosses who I think still have something left to prove. And isn't rush end and RB two positions we were thinking were weaknesses before the draft?
Obviously, I'd want to know what the contract situations would be like but it is something to ponder about. Of course, maybe we should wait for June 2nd to see if they might get cut first.;)
There ya go Bob, talking like a teasip Texan again. No, No & heck no! There will be other solutions to the DE problem before the season starts, and Ricky Williams.......you've really gotta be kidding.
HPF Bob
05-26-2008, 01:22 AM
Who would you rather hand the ball to 20 times a game? Ricky Williams or Ron Dayne? That's all I'm saying. Of course, that assumes Williams is over his injury/motivation problems.
Sounds like we basically have a difference of opinion on how well and how long JT's going to play. I think he's got at least a couple of years of high-level playing (with a change of scenery anyway). I think there's still a small chance of him being back with the Dolphins, but I think he'll be a 33 year old man on an 11 year+ mission if he's traded or cut.
And trust me, in two/three years if we can look at Kubiak's list of 3rd round picks and find as few "busts" as you clearly believe we will, I'll be happier than you could know.
i guess we do. i mean i don't think either one of us expects more than two years out of taylor. but will he still be around by the time the team kubiak is putting together (through the draft :eek:) competes for a ring or will he be retired and dancing?
kubiak brings more to the texans from a 3rd round pick than jason taylor ever could.
RunninRaven
05-27-2008, 07:37 AM
I would absolutely do a 3rd for Taylor. Quick turnarounds are commonplace in the NFL, and this team was already average to begin with. Adding a defensive pass rusher like Taylor could immediately vault our defense into elite territory. If our offensive weapons stay healthy, that would be enough to make us contenders, I feel. As others have mentioned, putting more pressure on the QB, as Taylor would do, opens things up more for Mario, who is already a handful, and will make things easier on our secondary, which is our biggest weakness on defense. I doubt that it happens, but I think it would be worth it to try.
I would absolutely do a 3rd for Taylor. Quick turnarounds are commonplace in the NFL, and this team was already average to begin with. Adding a defensive pass rusher like Taylor could immediately vault our defense into elite territory. If our offensive weapons stay healthy, that would be enough to make us contenders, I feel. As others have mentioned, putting more pressure on the QB, as Taylor would do, opens things up more for Mario, who is already a handful, and will make things easier on our secondary, which is our biggest weakness on defense. I doubt that it happens, but I think it would be worth it to try.
i say you are a homer, and that you are homering all over this post.
taylor might bring us one step closer to elite, but wouldn't put us over the hump so to speak. reggie white might take this texans defense and put it to elite status, but jason taylor does not. perhaps the continued development of mario, amobi, tj, fred bennett, the return to health of dunta/earl to a lesser extent, the blooming of diles, adibi, and molden, and consistent solid play from demps and co. at safety AND jason taylor MIGHT put us up to elite but that's banking off of too many walls for me to believe.
weaver, taylor, mario, amobi, tj....damn that's a lotta cash for 1 line
I'd trade Weaver for Taylor in a heart beat (weaver has a big contract and so does taylor so you have to even it out)
and maybe a 5th or so on the draft scale
weaver and a 5th for taylor sounds like a way sweeter deal for us. taylor + weaver on the same line is one expensive position to fill.
RunninRaven
06-02-2008, 07:29 AM
i say you are a homer, and that you are homering all over this post.
taylor might bring us one step closer to elite, but wouldn't put us over the hump so to speak. reggie white might take this texans defense and put it to elite status, but jason taylor does not. perhaps the continued development of mario, amobi, tj, fred bennett, the return to health of dunta/earl to a lesser extent, the blooming of diles, adibi, and molden, and consistent solid play from demps and co. at safety AND jason taylor MIGHT put us up to elite but that's banking off of too many walls for me to believe.
weaver, taylor, mario, amobi, tj....damn that's a lotta cash for 1 line
I say you are a negative nelly, and you are negative nellying all over this post.
I had written up a long post explaining why your statement above is being overly critical, but you are not going to be swayed, I can tell, so I won't bother. I will say that I thought I heard on the radio the other day that Taylor stated he will only play one more season. If that is indeed the case, I would not give up a 3rd for him. My willingness to trade a 3rd round pick is contingent on him being here and being productive for 2 more years (which I think he could do...if he was willing).
Let me ask you this, would you be willing to trade Eric Winston for Taylor, straight up?
Vinny
06-02-2008, 09:11 AM
weaver and a 5th for taylor sounds like a way sweeter deal for us. taylor + weaver on the same line is one expensive position to fill.sure it is...and why the Dolphins wouldn't consider it. a 5th plus a worthless player for Taylor isn't too enticing.
I say you are a negative nelly, and you are negative nellying all over this post.
I had written up a long post explaining why your statement above is being overly critical, but you are not going to be swayed, I can tell, so I won't bother. I will say that I thought I heard on the radio the other day that Taylor stated he will only play one more season. If that is indeed the case, I would not give up a 3rd for him. My willingness to trade a 3rd round pick is contingent on him being here and being productive for 2 more years (which I think he could do...if he was willing).
Let me ask you this, would you be willing to trade Eric Winston for Taylor, straight up?
haha fair enough...nellying hehehe...funny word. i just think you are expecting way too much development out of our young defense for taylor to matter in the "one player away" department. but agree to disagree :D
winston for taylor no way. taylor and a 1st, and a 1st next year, and a conditional 3rd that could escalate to 3 more 1st rounds until like 2013 maybe ill mull it over...:D winston is and will be as long as he continues developing (or as long as he is willing to stay here) a cornerstone of the texans offense.
sure it is...and why the Dolphins wouldn't consider it. a 5th plus a worthless player for Taylor isn't too enticing.
yea, basically all they would get is a stop-gap (which is all he has amounted to thus far) replacement and a shot in the dark at fixing it...
.....so call 'em up right? haha...
Any talk of giving up draft choices for old has-beens like Taylor should be completely out of the question for the Texans. As stated in the post above, Taylor will only play one more year, he is 34 years old, and has a humongous salary which would decimate our cap. We are not going to win it all this year, so why do something panicky? Stay the course and build through the Draft.
sescoyote
06-04-2008, 04:14 PM
Taylor seems to always be in great shape, so I really wouldn't have a problem with him at all. He had 11 sacks last year at age 33. If he can stay on as long as Strahan can then that would not be a bad pickup at all. Strahan is 36 now and still racked up 9 sacks. Would a rookie 3rd rounder produce like he would for the next couple of years? Get Taylor this year, give him a 2 year contract, draft his replacement next year.
painekiller
06-04-2008, 06:08 PM
Taylor seems to always be in great shape, so I really wouldn't have a problem with him at all. He had 11 sacks last year at age 33. If he can stay on as long as Strahan can then that would not be a bad pickup at all. Strahan is 36 now and still racked up 9 sacks. Would a rookie 3rd rounder produce like he would for the next couple of years? Get Taylor this year, give him a 2 year contract, draft his replacement next year.
Even though he has said he want to play only one more year. This guy is not coming to Houston, he wants/needs to go to a true Super Bowl contender.
sescoyote
06-05-2008, 06:01 PM
Even though he has said he want to play only one more year. This guy is not coming to Houston, he wants/needs to go to a true Super Bowl contender.If I had a dime for every time a player said one thing and did another, I'd have as much money as Jason Taylor. Money talks.
Taylor seems to always be in great shape, so I really wouldn't have a problem with him at all. He had 11 sacks last year at age 33. If he can stay on as long as Strahan can then that would not be a bad pickup at all. Strahan is 36 now and still racked up 9 sacks. Would a rookie 3rd rounder produce like he would for the next couple of years? Get Taylor this year, give him a 2 year contract, draft his replacement next year.
or.....here's another option.....draft his replacement next year and spend the money you would've spent on taylor on booze for the fans! :D
oh yea and jason taylor was a third round pick in '97, 73rd overall. just thought i would throw that tidbit in since you mentioned 3rd round picks...so i guess a third round pick has quite the possibility of playing like jason taylor.
i've been thinking about this for a while now and i've come to the conclusion that besides the fact that he wants a ring, we could do better with our 3rd round picks, his contract, his drama and all that jazz another reason not to pick him up is it takes the pressure off of mario, amobi, tj and i suppose okam to get better.
sescoyote
06-06-2008, 11:58 AM
...so i guess a third round pick has quite the possibility of playing like jason taylor.
i've been thinking about this for a while now and i've come to the conclusion that besides the fact that he wants a ring, we could do better with our 3rd round picks, his contract, his drama and all that jazz another reason not to pick him up is it takes the pressure off of mario, amobi, tj and i suppose okam to get better.We could still draft a player like him next year in the 3rd round, but I tend to think that Taylor is ready to go right now and will not need a couple of years for "seasoning". The point was that if we are to going to make any kind of push this year then we need that extra player to help push us over the top. He is a pro-bowl player, we know what we are getting. It's simple, is he an upgrade over what we have now? Yes. There you have it.
We could still draft a player like him next year in the 3rd round, but I tend to think that Taylor is ready to go right now and will not need a couple of years for "seasoning". The point was that if we are to going to make any kind of push this year then we need that extra player to help push us over the top. He is a pro-bowl player, we know what we are getting. It's simple, is he an upgrade over what we have now? Yes. There you have it.
there i have what? 10 more sacks? whoopty crap, that's not going to solidify anything playoffs-wise.
just what exactly is taylor bringing that we don't have for a 3rd round pick who has just as much a chance of making "the difference" on this team as taylor does? is it really just 7 more sacks than a weaver/DE combo could get? i'm not being sarcastic either, i'm asking because i don't see what he brings that is that much better than who we have now or the general worth of a 3rd round pick.
if jacoby jones (as a 3rd round pick) steps up and catches 5 td's/50 receptions/500 yards would it make more or less of a difference than the taylor 10? i don't think this is out of his reach, especially with the guy's we have around (and currently in front) of him.
you're right though, we do need an extra player to get over the top. like maybe andre johnson plays the whole season this go-round? dunta? schauby? ahman? 17 players by season's end. don't tell me their health wouldn't have made a difference the way you think taylor would.
sescoyote
06-06-2008, 04:29 PM
there i have what? 10 more sacks? whoopty crap, that's not going to solidify anything playoffs-wise.10 sacks is whoopty crap???? No one person is going to elevate us to the playoffs, that is why it's a "team" sport. But I'm not sure how you think a 3rd round in his 1st year is going to equate to the level of Taylor; There wasn't a player in last years 3rd round draft that had more than 2 sacks. 3rd rounders just don't have a big impact their first year.
just what exactly is taylor bringing that we don't have for a 3rd round pick who has just as much a chance of making "the difference" on this team as taylor does?.Taylor brings Pro Bowls, experience in both the "4-3" and "3-4", and sack production. See above regarding last years 3rd rounders.
you're right though, we do need an extra player to get over the top. like maybe andre johnson plays the whole season this go-round? dunta? schauby? ahman? 17 players by season's end. don't tell me their health wouldn't have made a difference the way you think taylor would.Ever the more reason to get quality players in, we agree then.
Ses, you can argue till the cows come home, but Taylor just ain't coming here, for all the reasons stated above, but most especially because we are all about the future and Taylor is only the present. Waste of draft pick. Waste of money. Give it up man.
The point was that if we are to going to make any kind of push this year then we need that extra player to help push us over the top.
No one person is going to elevate us to the playoffs
hmmmmm
.Taylor brings Pro Bowls, experience in both the "4-3" and "3-4", and sack production. See above regarding last years 3rd rounders.
taylor's popularity isn't going to help us win and neither will his past defenses. about 10 sacks is what he will bring that we won't get otherwise. 10 sacks for a player with the potential to do anything doesn't sound like a sweet deal to me.
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