Owen Daniels Contract Negotiations

[Keith]

In fact Texans General Manager Rick Smith made contact Tuesday with Daniels representatives.

"Rick reached out to me and and (agent) Dave (Butz) and my sense is the Texans are going to try and get something done," said Alan Herman, one of Daniels' agents.

"Whether we can remains to be seen."

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/sports/090407_daniels_texans_contract

Other quotes from Owen Daniels in the article:

"Honestly I would probably be a little upset," Daniels said prior to the team's conditioning workouts. "I think I've earned something. I've earned more than a one-year situation here.

"A lot of the guys have been working hard, getting three and four-year deals around here. So I'm happy for them and I think I should be in the same boat." ...

"I can't lie and say it's something that wasn't thrown around between me and my agent," Daniels said. "I thought it was the best thing for me just to come out here and work and be with the guys and show what I'm here for.

"It's not in my personality to not come out here. I love being around the guys." ...
"Guys try to play well in this league and try to earn their keep, earn some security on a team and be there for awhile," Daniels said.

"I think I've tried to do that. I would love to be here. So if they can do that, it would be the best thing for both sides."

More from McClain (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6363544.html).

[da Bull]

Well I guess this begs the question of what positions are the most critical? Also, along those same lines, what players in those positions are the most critical to overall team success?

New England for example has been very successful for a number of years. But they always appear to have a defensive back who becomes a high priced free agent every year. On the other hand, quarterback would seem to be the most critical and yet they had a very good year with an unknown backup.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that you can't pay every position the high salaries, so which ones do you target? And, which do you let walk even though the player is extremely popular with the fan base?

[papabear]

.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that you can't pay every position the high salaries, so which ones do you target? And, which do you let walk even though the player is extremely popular with the fan base?

The problem with that is trying to figure out if the 3rd best tight end in the league is worth more than the 20th best CB? CB's are generally regarded as more valuable than TE's, but if I had to pick between the two I'm probably taking a pro-bowler over an average starter the majority of the time.

Fan popularity really shouldn't come into play in most cases even though I'm sure it plays a part occasionally. It's hard to compare apples to oranges, but you have to decide how valuable that PLAYER is to your franchise. In the case of Daniels, I think he plays a vital role in our offense.

[Mike]

I think OD did the right thing by coming in for the voluntary camp. I think that buys him some good PR. While that only means so much, I think that helps.

Rick Smith has to start somewhere with negotiations, I wonder if getting OD done is the easiest of the three and then he can work on the other two.

I saw a snippet on rotoworld last night that the agents for Demeco have also been contacted recently by the GM. If I can get the link, I'll paste it.

I agree with Papa, OD is really important to this offense. Even if he does not make the catch, he puts pressure on the defense.

[da Bull]

After thinking about it some more, to me, it comes back to what positions become "plug and play" positions. You have to generate a out/in pipeline at point in time.

I think at this point, the offense could operate more effectively without Daniels than the defense could without Ryans. But hopefully at some point in the future it becomes a wash, not saying that I want either one to walk. Just that you have to be able to pay the Andre Johnson and Mario Williamses, because both make their side of the ball go, more so than either Daniels or Ryans, respectively.

[Nconroe]

Yeah, poor OD will only make 2.9mil if he doesn't get a new deal. Demeco is the one who is relatively underpaid for now. I think all the salaries are too high and so are ticket prices, for average fan anyways. I think TE is important to our attack, not sure if it is OD or the position, some of both.

It is tough to be fair to all the guys who have four-five year deals, they wanted the security, and then salries go up , it puts everyone in a tough spot relatively speaking. And you have to keep total under a cap, which is good.

Philadelphia, Boston, Indianapolis , probably others, have to let some good veterans go every year it seems due to this problem, and they rebuild well enough it looks like.

[papabear]

I saw a snippet on rotoworld last night that the agents for Demeco have also been contacted recently by the GM. If I can get the link, I'll paste it.

.

I saw that Ryans fired his agent and is looking for a new one...I'll look for confirmation on that too.

[papabear]

I saw that Ryans fired his agent and is looking for a new one...I'll look for confirmation on that too.


yep...

from McClain:

http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2009/04/a_texans_contest_and_a_cat_who.html

[Mike]

[QUOTE=Nconroe;10104]Yeah, poor OD will only make 2.9mil if he doesn't get a new deal. Demeco is the one who is relatively underpaid for now. I think all the salaries are too high and so are ticket prices, for average fan anyways. I think TE is important to our attack, not sure if it is OD or the position, some of both.


That is irrevelant if you think salaries and ticket prices are to high. We are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay. You cannot just plug in another TE and have OD's production.

We are not good enough to let our good players leave without compensation.

[nunusguy]

I like OD personally, I like his hustle, and I like his talent but honestly I don't think any player is a bigger beneficiary of this offense that Kubiak is running than OD. He is after all a rather undersized TE who isn't more than a mediorce blocker. To me OD is a classic TE/WR tweener with good hands. For example I could see the kid from Rice (Casey I think his name is ?), doing pretty well in this system.

[Roy P]

For example I could see the kid from Rice (Casey I think his name is ?), doing pretty well in this system.

This is most likely true. We could get another pass-catching TE in the draft and pay him like a rookie. However, there is a hidden 'cost' associated with that route. We already have a TE who is productive, that allows us to go out and use that draft pick on another position to make the team better overall. If we simply replace one with another (cheaper) version, then we aren't getting any better, we are simply standing in place. That's also assuming that the replacement player actually lives up to those expectations (as they sometimes don't). It's nice to know what kind of production you can expect from a young veteran, because he's already done it!

The guys that you let walk are players who think too much of themselves or simply don't want to stay with their team. So, the salaries that they are looking for are not in line with their production. Somebody like........Dunta Robinson?

[papabear]

If we simply replace one with another (cheaper) version, then we aren't getting any better, we are simply standing in place. That's also assuming that the replacement player actually lives up to those expectations (as they sometimes don't).


I would guess they most likely don't live up to expectations a majority of the time. even when they do long term it's not a good idea to bet on a rookie to come in an outperform a pro-bowl level player in his prime as a rookie. OD showed some skill as a rookie, but he's much better now than he was then. Even if we went after Pettigrew (I'm guessing he's the top TE in this draft?) He probably has a higher ceiling as a blocker than OD, and could likely be just as effective in the passing game. Even assuming best case scenario he's not likely to do all those things as rookie.

I'm not saying that we should give him a Winslow like contract or anything. I just don't think he's easily replaceable. I think his blocking has also improved quite a bit from his rookie year.

[Nconroe]

fwiw, USA Today has a pretty comprehensive salaries list available, sortable by positionm, player, team, year at
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=134

contract you signed vs what worth now aside, looks like OD should get a raise and it sounds like they are talking , so good. similar for Demeco.

I know hard to build a good team and need to keep our good players, but I wouldn't mind just one year of some of these salaries and I'd be set.

[nunusguy]

This is most likely true. We could get another pass-catching TE in the draft and pay him like a rookie. However, there is a hidden 'cost' associated with that route. We already have a TE who is productive, that allows us to go out and use that draft pick on another position to make the team better overall. If we simply replace one with another (cheaper) version, then we aren't getting any better, we are simply standing in place. That's also assuming that the replacement player actually lives up to those expectations (as they sometimes don't). It's nice to know what kind of production you can expect from a young veteran, because he's already done it!

The guys that you let walk are players who think too much of themselves or simply don't want to stay with their team. So, the salaries that they are looking for are not in line with their production. Somebody like........Dunta Robinson?

I really think we can get another OD in the 3rd or 4th round like we did the origional and I think that's what the Texans should do if OD is too greedy
when it comes to a new deal, in spite of the sweet-deal Winslow got ?
Winslow may be a jerk, but he has Gonzales type talent and ODs just not a classic TE but mainly a real good fit in a very non-standardized kinda offense.
Why we may already may have the next OD on our roster in the person of one Joel Dreessen ? Cap money is a finite resource and it shouldn't be squandered on players who are not that difficult to repalce relatively speaking.

[Roy P]

fwiw, USA Today has a pretty comprehensive salaries list available, sortable by positionm, player, team, year at
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=134
.

If Randy McMichael is worth 3.9 and Witten is 4.1, then OD should be at $4 Mil per year. Four years and $16M sounds reasonable. Right?

We gave Greenwood 5.5 and Marcus Washington is at 6.4, So DeMeco is in a strange situation. He's not an OLB in a 3-4, which is more like a DE, but he does other things like run the defense. I would say that 6.6 is reasonable, but he's probably looking for 7+, therefore, the happy medium might be 6.9M per season. I realize that there are bonus things to consider, but 4 years 26M or 5yr/34M might be the deal I'd look for on the cap.

[gunslinger57]

If I were Rick, I'd take the next flight to Tampa Bay and slap Mark Dominik and all the Glazers for giving Kellen "I'm a SOULJA" that ridiculous contract. You know OD and his agents are going, "Hey, why can't I get at LEAST that much? I'm more productive than him, and healthier!"

[WMH]

If I were Rick, I'd take the next flight to Tampa Bay and slap Mark Dominik and all the Glazers for giving Kellen "I'm a SOULJA" that ridiculous contract. You know OD and his agents are going, "Hey, why can't I get at LEAST that much? I'm more productive than him, and healthier!"

Tampa Bay has to spend crazy money just to get to the floor. They have been in a that spot for a couple of years now. Who was that guard they gave stupid money to......(can't remember).

So, yes, they screw up the market. Hopefully, Rick Smith is smooth enough to work thru it.

[papabear]

"Hey, why can't I get at LEAST that much? I'm more productive than him, and healthier!"

I agree that OD's agents are going to use that....but Winslow might be one of those cases of perception distorting reality. When Winslow is healthy he's been very productive. He had 1,100 receiving yards 2 years ago, and in the two seasons he's played 16 games he's caught 82 and 89 balls. Daniels highest yardage was 862 and he's never caught more than 70.

I'm not saying Winslow is better by any means, but simply pointing out that Winslow has been much more productive than I thought he was until I actually went and looked. I'll take OD any day of the week though.

[gunslinger57]

I agree that OD's agents are going to use that....but Winslow might be one of those cases of perception distorting reality. When Winslow is healthy he's been very productive. He had 1,100 receiving yards 2 years ago, and in the two seasons he's played 16 games he's caught 82 and 89 balls. Daniels highest yardage was 862 and he's never caught more than 70.

I'm not saying Winslow is better by any means, but simply pointing out that Winslow has been much more productive than I thought he was until I actually went and looked. I'll take OD any day of the week though.

Yeah, but OD's agents are going to say, "Look at career stats! Owen's got stats that are just as good AND he'll be there for every game!" I'm just afraid we're going to end up with a (relatively) huge contract that ends up restricting the Texans when it comes to dealing with out other soon to be FAs. DeMeco and Dunta still need to be dealt with, and Schaub's got a huge roster bonus that kicks in in 2010, doesn't he? That'll require a renegotiation, and you knw that if he has better than average stats he's going to get serious guaranteed money.

[Mike]

Let Smith and the capologists figure it out. The Colts seem to make the playoffs with tons of guys with monster deals. Manning, Harrison, Freeney, Wayne, Clark and Sanders. I think Manning has the biggest salary # in the league. So I would not fret about having to pay OD. It is not going to be a mega deal.

[papabear]

Yeah, but OD's agents are going to say, "Look at career stats! Owen's got stats that are just as good AND he'll be there for every game!" .

that's just the way negotiations go. I was simply pointing out that I didn't realize how productive Winslow was when he was on the field. His attitude coming out of college and the whole motorcycle thing got him a bad reputation, and was probably tainting my opinion of him as a player.


I'm just afraid we're going to end up with a (relatively) huge contract that ends up restricting the Texans when it comes to dealing with out other soon to be FAs. DeMeco and Dunta still need to be dealt with, and Schaub's got a huge roster bonus that kicks in in 2010, doesn't he? That'll require a renegotiation, and you knw that if he has better than average stats he's going to get serious guaranteed money

I am too. I don't think this offense is so good that we can just pick any TE and plug and play so to speak. I think OD would be much harder to replace than people to realize. That being said if he demands a Winslow like contract then we are probably better off letting him go. I think it would hurt the team a great deal, but not as much as the possible salary cap problems probably would in the long run. We still have no idea what's going to happen when the owners and the NFLPA sit down and negotiate. That makes this that much harder.

I don't see Schaub's contract as a big problem. They will renegotiate, but it will be more of a shuffling things around for cap purposes (if there is one)with a little extra thrown on top. I could be wrong, but I just don't see that being a big issue when we get there.

[TheMatrix31]

I personally think Owen Daniels is a MUST. He's imperative to the offense. So often, I've seen him come up huge (despite some stupid fumbles on his part) when there was nothing else open. He's Schaub's security blanket, especially as mobile as he is and especially in the offense we run.

[Nconroe]

sounds like OD wants a Killen Winslow type deal, 6 years, 36 mil, 20 mil guanranteed, 42 mil with incentives. sounds steep, Tampa messed up the whole league pay structure for TE. I doubt OD is worth that much, even though he may be quite good and valuable to Texans. Good for OD coming to voluntary workouts. Hope they find a happy medium and he stays a Texan.

[Roy P]

6 years,

$24M with $16M guaranteed. Anything more than that is $tupid.

[kravix]

Does it matter that OD is technically the 3rd QB on the roster on game day and he knows it?

There was a snippet last season, maybe the one before, where OD talked about Kubiak telling him that if Sage went down he was taking the snaps.

I know he doesnt take any practice snaps, not that we see anyway, but that doesnt mean that he and the team dont know who is comming in.

I am actually pretty suprised we havent seen any trick plays with OD given his QB background.

[nunusguy]

Tampa messed up the whole league pay structure for TE.
You mean like when the Texans messed up the whole league pay structure for non-OLTs way back in 2004 when they coughed-up 10 M guaranteed for a very ordinary (at best) RT named Todd Wade ?
How does that go - what goes around comes around ?

[RunninRaven]

I'm not too worried about the team forking over a huge contract like some. I think the negotiations between Dunta and Demeco are pretty good evidence that the team is not going to cave and overpay just because a player is a favorite. If Owen has ridiculous expectations and demands for his new contract, I'm sure they will let him walk. But I don't expect Daniels will demand a Winslow type contract.

[John S]

I don't think the Texans should pay him stupid money like Winslow got, but i do think you have to pay him in the top 5 TE range. I feel that he is one of the 5 best TEs in the League. He is just hitting his prime so they should lock him up.

[nunusguy]

Here's my question: does OD have any significant leverage left for negotiating a new contract after the Texans took not one but 2 TEs in the Draft, especially the second guy James Casey ?
And while Anthony Hill may be primarily a blocking TE who is a replacement for the retired Breuner, on the face of it Casey looks to be a virtual clone of OD. He's the same size in height & weight and I suspect their combine/Pro- Day measurerables are very comparable ? And like OD he's very athletic with excellent hands.
I dunno but I'll bet OD was in near shock after he heard about the second TE picked in the Draft ? And if anybody (like the Bills who reportedly were interested in OD) comes to them now with an attractive trade offer including a high 2010 Draft pick how seriously do Smith/Kubiak consider such a deal ?

[NBT]

I think that if buffalo comes with a deal for OD, it needs to be seriously considered. On the other hand, OD has been such a cog in our offense, that it would take a very high draft choice and maybe another vet to make the deal work for us. I still think OD will be a Texan this year.

[Roy P]

I think that if buffalo comes with a deal for OD, it needs to be seriously considered. On the other hand, OD has been such a cog in our offense, that it would take a very high draft choice and maybe another vet to make the deal work for us. I still think OD will be a Texan this year.

I'm thinking John Wendling, Xavier Omon, and a 3rd round pick.

[HPF Bob]

I think if the Texans are going to pay big money for a TE, they'd prefer one who fumbles less.

(Six coughed up over the past two seasons)

[nero THE zero]

I think Casey is just insurance. There's so much in the air right now with the CBA negotiations that there's no way to be certain what contractual role Daniels will fall under after this season. Will he be an UFA? Will he be a RFA again?

You don't want to deal a proven, pro-bowl veteran and replace him with a rookie. So, you draft Casey, let him learn the system for a year, let the CBA drama play itself out, and make your decision next off-season.

[nunusguy]

I think TEs are like running backs in the Kubiak offense, they're almost a dime a dozen but not quite. They are tweeners, too small to be a traditional TE and too slow to be a WR and therefor there aren't many systems in the NFL that guys like OD can succeed at, let alone star. I think Joel Dressen or the rookie Casey can step up and play TE for Kubiak.
I like OD, he's a hard worker, a solid team player, and reasonably talented football player but we're not talking Andre Johnson here, he's certainly expendable IMO. If we could get anything like a 2nd round pick for him I say jump on it before the other team has a chance to reconsider.

[NBT]

...........Another yes but - OD was our second leading receiver last year!

[papabear]

I think TEs are like running backs in the Kubiak offense, they're almost a dime a dozen but not quite.

I think the TE position is crucial to this offense. Whether or not OD is the reason for that or it is all scheme is hard for me to say, and I guess we have to trust Kubiak and Smith on how easy that position is to fill. I see OD's success the last few years as a major reason our offense has been relatively effective.

[NBT]

I find it pretty easy to trust Kubiak and Smith. They get an A from me so far.

[nunusguy]

FWIW Bob Allen reported yesterday on local Channel 13 (ABC), that a Texans "source" told him contract negotiations with ODs agent are now very active. I'll be very surprised if they work out a new deal with OD before they do with DeMeco, whos signing to me is clearly the higher priority.

[popanot]

I'll be very surprised if they work out a new deal with OD before they do with DeMeco, whos signing to me is clearly the higher priority.Doesn't matter which one is the higher priority. They still need to sign both. OD's contract may be easier to work out since he may not have as much negotiating leverage, or, it may just be a matter that the two sides have been closer coming to an agreement than the Texans and DeMeco have been.

[Keith]

And if Daniels doesn’t accept his one-year, $2.792 million offer by June 15, things could get interesting.

After that date, the Texans acquire the option to reduce the tender to the greater of the minimum salary for a player of Daniels’ experience level or 110 percent of his 2008 pay.

Since he made $451,000 in 2008, the Texans would able to reduce the tender to the three-year veteran minimum of $520,000. ...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/03/texans-owen-daniels-playing-contract-chicken/

[papabear]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/03/texans-owen-daniels-playing-contract-chicken/

Saw that...my question is, knowing this why wouldn't OD sign the offer before that date? Does he lose the ability to negotiate a long term deal once he signs the tender? I just don't see any reason why he wouldn't sign it knowing it could cost him 2+ million. I don't know if the Texans would take advantage of the option to reduce the tender, but there's no business reason not to other than hurting OD's feelings. I'm sure Owen recognizes, or at least hope he does, the business aspects of it.

[Nconroe]

I hope they work it out to satisfaction of both sides. no holdouts please. Does seem OD has earned a raise to atleast get into top 15 if not top 10 TE salaries sometime soon.

[Keith]

Saw that...my question is, knowing this why wouldn't OD sign the offer before that date? Does he lose the ability to negotiate a long term deal once he signs the tender? I just don't see any reason why he wouldn't sign it knowing it could cost him 2+ million. I don't know if the Texans would take advantage of the option to reduce the tender, but there's no business reason not to other than hurting OD's feelings. I'm sure Owen recognizes, or at least hope he does, the business aspects of it.

I'm guessing he recognizes it. I'm going to also guess that there's some amount of good faith negotiating going on behind the scences (gaspshock! might our local media be missing the scent of this story?? egads! :rolleyes:)

Daniels has been in attendance through OTAs from all I can infer. And afaik, there is no reason why he couldn't still try to negotiate a long-term deal after signing the tender.

[nunusguy]

Texans tight end Owen Daniels has become the second player to skip organized team activities this offseason because of a contract dispute with the franchise's front office.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6466951.html

[Keith]

Yeah, yeah. The Texans should be counting their lucky stars OD showed up at all without a contract.

Fans have been kinda harsh on Dunta's situation when I'm not really sure I believe all that's been reported contractually in the first place. Now Owen's out, and until I know more about what the Texans REALLY have and have not offered, I refuse to get upset at either Dunta or Owen.

Don't fault the player in either case here. Fault the system if anything. And don't forget your healthy sense of skepticism on anything you read about these things in the media.

[Nconroe]

Yes, its the long offseason so we have to talk about something. From what I've heard, I think the offer to OD is low so far. Maybe been to harsh on the guys skipping OTA, but they do make a lot of money for a game, so hard to feel to sorry for these guys.

[Keith]

Yeah, you either feel sorry for the millionaire players or the billionaire ownership... so I don't feel sorry for either.

I will say though that players have a VERY small window in which to make the big buxxx, and Daniels has just entered that window (as has Robinson). I think that's why the longer I've been at this, the more I tend to at least sympathize with the player's "plight" over the team's/ownership's. The fan in us wants everyone on the field, but this is business, and I doubt most of us regular joe's would risk life and limb for our jobs without vying for the best compensation we could, especially if our window to get PAID was anywhere near as small as it is for an NFL player.

[cadams]

Yeah, you either feel sorry for the millionaire players or the billionaire ownership... so I don't feel sorry for either.

I will say though that players have a VERY small window in which to make the big buxxx, and Daniels has just entered that window (as has Robinson). I think that's why the longer I've been at this, the more I tend to at least sympathize with the player's "plight" over the team's/ownership's. The fan in us wants everyone on the field, but this is business, and I doubt most of us regular joe's would risk life and limb for our jobs without vying for the best compensation we could, especially if our window to get PAID was anywhere near as small as it is for an NFL player.

I am starting to get a little concerned over how they are handling negotiations. We no have 3 key players (robinson, daniels, and ryans) who want contracts, two of whom are now holding out. I am sure there are two sides to this story, but I don't like the way it is playing out.

[Keith]

I am starting to get a little concerned over how they are handling negotiations. We no have 3 key players (robinson, daniels, and ryans) who want contracts, two of whom are now holding out. I am sure there are two sides to this story, but I don't like the way it is playing out.

I agree, but it is also important to look at all three individually, at least for now, since each is in a different situation. And it is important to remember that the current CBA situation is impacting all three of them, too.

Ryans is currently under contract, which immediately makes him different from Dunta and Owen. He would be a true/classic holdout if he failed to show for mandatory workouts. His situation is aggravated in that he'll be a RFA without a new CBA, so he's feeling a little screwed by the circumstances (and placing those feelings onto the GM), not to mention he feels as though he has already outperformed his rookie contract.

Daniels is an RFA that deserves a real contract. From reports it sounds like his team hasn't even been discussing #s yet with the Texans. Just sort of a slap in the face since the Texans already extended another RFA, Joel Dreesen, who ohbytheway is Daniels' backup. Without a new CBA though, instead of riding out 2009 as a RFA, he still wouldn't be a UFA next year.

Dunta's situation is a more standard F-tag one, but his is complicated by his significant injury in 2007. Much more uncertainty here than with other F-tags, so that both parties are at a standstill is predictable to me. I don't put a lot of faith into media reports re: Dunta's situation, and fans getting overly angry at Dunta are possibly jumping to conclusions. I think Dunta might just have to play 2009 as an F-tag, though I would still like him to sign long-term here.

[Bigtinylittle]

I agree, but it is also important to look at all three individually, at least for now, since each is in a different situation. And it is important to remember that the current CBA situation is impacting all three of them, too.

Ryans is currently under contract, which immediately makes him different from Dunta and Owen. He would be a true/classic holdout if he failed to show for mandatory workouts. His situation is aggravated in that he'll be a RFA without a new CBA, so he's feeling a little screwed by the circumstances (and placing those feelings onto the GM), not to mention he feels as though he has already outperformed his rookie contract.

Daniels is an RFA that deserves a real contract. From reports it sounds like his team hasn't even been discussing #s yet with the Texans. Just sort of a slap in the face since the Texans already extended another RFA, Joel Dreesen, who ohbytheway is Daniels' backup. Without a new CBA though, instead of riding out 2009 as a RFA, he still wouldn't be a UFA next year.

Dunta's situation is a more standard F-tag one, but his is complicated by his significant injury in 2007. Much more uncertainty here than with other F-tags, so that both parties are at a standstill is predictable to me. I don't put a lot of faith into media reports re: Dunta's situation, and fans getting overly angry at Dunta are possibly jumping to conclusions. I think Dunta might just have to play 2009 as an F-tag, though I would still like him to sign long-term here.

I normally tune out all talk of contract negotions because we fans never actually know what is really going on behind the scenes anyway. I have learned from long experience that agents try their best to whip up public sentiment against a team as a way to pressure a team for more money. That is a given. What is also a given is that as part of their tactics agents either lie about the negotiations or are very vague in their details. I refuse to be a part of their game.

As long as there is a cap in the NFL it will be very important for the Texans to spend their money very wisely and avoid overpaying players. That's Rick's job, and I intend to let him do it.

[NBT]

Owen missed day 12 of OTA's because he's unhappy over his contract status. Offered a one year $2.7M deal, He wants to lock in a longterm deal before the CBA expires in 2010. The Texans don't want to get hung into that until they find out how the wind is going to blow. So we quite naturally have holdouts. It will either work out for the players or the teams. We just have to wait and see which way the wind will blow.

[dadmg]

I am starting to get a little concerned over how they are handling negotiations. We no have 3 key players (robinson, daniels, and ryans) who want contracts, two of whom are now holding out.

You and me both. I'm surprised they let Demeco's or Dunta's contracts get to this point. And if they wanted to keep Owen it would've been a lot cheaper to sign him to an extension earlier too.

[papabear]

You and me both. I'm surprised they let Demeco's or Dunta's contracts get to this point. And if they wanted to keep Owen it would've been a lot cheaper to sign him to an extension earlier too.


This isn't at all unusual. That doesn't mean behind closed doors that things aren't going poorly, but the fact the contract negotiations got to this point is no reason to think the Texans are handling things badly.

Dunta's injury kept them from doing anything last year. We knew Daniels was going to be a RFA this year so there was no rush to get anything done before this offseason. I'm sure they both would have liked to have gotten a deal done before now, but it's not unusual by any stretch. There trying to get an extension done with Demeco entering the final year of his contract. I would like to see it all resolved, but there is nothing out of the ordinary about this at all.

[painekiller]

So Owen has signed his tender offer for the 2.9M. According to the chron.com (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6478391.html), the Texans made Daniels a new offer this week that would have made him the #2 highest paid TE.

What that means is not clear, was it total money, guaranteed money, 1st 3 years? No sure, but Daniels did not accept it. His agents will continue to try to work out a long term deal.

[popanot]

OD is quickly entering DRob territory, IMO. The guy thinks he's worth way more than he is. How about you stop fumbling at critical times then come back and talk, OD?? Anyone wondering why they signed Dreessen and drafted two TE's now?

Texans Don’t Plan To Negotiate With Daniels
Posted by Mike Florio on June 14, 2009, 8:10 p.m.

Although agents Alan Herman and Dave Butz reportedly hope to continue to negotiate with the Texans on a long-term deal for tight end Owen Daniels, a league source tells us that the team’s current plan is to allow Daniels to play out the 2009 season under his one-year, $2.79 million salary, before taking up the issue of a multi-year contract.

Per the source, Daniels wants to be the highest-paid tight end in the sport. To get there, he’d need a deal that averages more than Dallas Clark’s $6.9 million annual package from the Colts.

And while John McClain of the Houston Chronicle reports that the Texans already have offered a contract that would make Daniels the league’s second highest-paid tight end (the current No. 2, Kellen Winslow of Tampa, averages $6.5 million), we’re told that the Texans’ best offer would put Daniels at No. 4, between Tony Gonzalez’s $6.25 million average and Daniel Graham’s $6 million average.

Rounding out the top eight are Jeremy Shockey ($5.1 million), Chris Cooley ($4.8 million), Jason Witten ($4.6 million), and Antonio Gates ($4.4 million).

The team’s hard line with Daniels arises in part, we’re told, from the fact that he is represented by the same firm that has cornerback Dunta Robinson, the team’s unsigned franchise player — and that the Texans are irritated with the manner in which both players have been handled this offseason.

Though it’s possible that the Texans will reverse course on their willingness to sign Daniels to a long-term deal if he decides to take the best offer that has been on the table, the current position (as we understand it) is that the Texans won’t be making Daniels the highest-paid tight end in the game.

Though he has been a solid player during his first three NFL seasons, does he really merit $7 million per year?

[Nconroe]

If I heard right, on ABC 13 news tonight OD signed tender. I guess that is very good for him and the team. Wonder if he is one of the 30 who don't have to practice, just workout, I guess so.

[superbowlbound]

I don't like this one bit. Sure, I'm definitely pleased that the tender's been signed, but regardless of who's got the right information, be it florio or mcclain, I don't understand how you can argue with that money, especially with the state of the CBA. I hope the Texans don't negotiate further, as far as the per-year average goes. To be perfectly honest, if you're going to turn down top 5 money at your position, you're a damn fool, and you deserve whatever negative things come of it. I would laugh my ass off if neither dunta nor owen got their deals done, both become/remain RFA's with the burning of the old CBA, and they lose a good 7 million each in the process, because their agents are f*cking stupid. according to last year's numbers, owen was, among TE's: 5th in receptions, 3rd in yards, 5th in ypc (min 40 receptions), 6th in 1st down % (same min), and tied for 3rd in fumbles. sounds like 4th highest paid TE in the sport is right where he should be. Get your head out of your ass and play some football.

[Keith]

Update from Owen via Facebook a little over an hour ago seems to counter the PFT story:
We're still working really hard to get something done. Hopefully we can make it happen soon.

If the Texans really did offer what these reports suggest, and assuming there is nothing funny with the per year averages (i.e. backloading the "guarantees" with some huge roster bonus in 2011 or something), then I'd think REAL hard before turning down the next offer if I were Daniels.

I hate commenting on this though because we don't know what's really happening with these negotiations. If you think you know just because you saw it reported on the chron or somewhere else, then in reality you only know an angle of it filtered through the lens of someone who may or may not trust and understand the info him/herself.

Just sayin'. I think I've said this a bunch already, but I am still skeptical that the Texans really had that huge offer to Dunta on the table. I could be wrong of course, but Dunta's agent has been a little quiet on the terms and we all know already that Rick Smith and the Texans know how to use the chron as their mouthpiece when they want to.

But if the reports are true, then these guys should sign. But we don't know all the facts other than that the teams and not the players hold all the cards in both of these negotiations.

Back to Daniels... unless he knows that a new CBA is coming, then he needs to know that he's screwed. That's why I would sign any legit offer I can get, and a top 3-5 offer is legit. Which is different than Dunta... he'll get almost $10mm as a f-tag w/o a deal vs. the $2mm or so OD gets with just his tender. Big difference, plus the situation is the same in 2010 without a CBA with Dunta as potential UFA, Daniels as RFA.

[Mike]

That quote from OD makes me breathe a bit easier. I hope they can get him and Demeco done before camp opens. Lance Z this AM said that OD and Dunta are represented by the same firm, so maybe...maybe I am looking for the silver lining that if they can get OD taken care of, that might make it a little easier for Dunta to get a deal done. With Demeco canning his agent that says he wants to get a deal done.

Hopefully both sides in all three cases understand the art of the negotiation and can come to reasonable concessions to make the deals happen.

[Keith]

Daniels skipped out on the first day of the mandatory mini-camp.

Daniels is in line for a fine of almost $10,000 for missing the mandatory session while under contract. A player cannot be fined further than that for missing additional days and it's unclear if Daniels intends to skip all three days.

"We're happy that he elected to come in and sign his tender and be a part of the football team again; a little disappointed that he's not here today," general manager Rick Smith said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4260673&campaign=rss&source=NFLHeadlines

Not surprised he isn't there, at least not until a new contract is signed.

[Keith]

As I was saying earlier today...I hate commenting on this though because we don't know what's really happening with these negotiations. If you think you know just because you saw it reported on the chron or somewhere else, then in reality you only know an angle of it filtered through the lens of someone who may or may not trust and understand the info him/herself.

The chron has an updated article on the situation, this time with quotes from Daniels' agent:
The Chronicle reported that the Texans' offer made would make Daniels the second-highest paid tight end in the league.

“I’ve read reports in the media about the contract and they are not accurate,” Herman said. “We didn’t have anything to do with those reports. I’m hoping we can have professional dialogue with Rick to get this done. I think the key to getting something done is not to go over the details in the media.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6479538.html

So Daniels' camp is disclaiming ownership of the contract details link, and now later in that chron link above Smith says he wants to keep negotiations private. Soooo... typical negotiation stuff, meaning as fans we should be careful to jump to conclusions as long as both sides remain open to negotiation.

And if you want more blah blah on this, Kuharsky has a post (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-10-75/Might-hovering-contract-issues-distract-Texans-.html) at the worldwide.

[papabear]

I'm very skeptical of anything regarding contract amount rumors reported by the chron. Especially since Mcclain has responded to an email of mine about the cap that he didn't really understand how it all worked and that was impossible for someone not in the business to really understand it. I sent him here to Keith's cap page and told him that if a guy who runs a message board in his spare time can take the time to read the CBA and keep up with a cap page that maybe since his job is to cover the NFL he should at least put forth a little effort and try to figure it out. He didn't respond, but I doubt he was amused.

My point is that the chron either parrots what the team tells them just on their word, or is told what the contract offer actually is and doesn't understand it enough to give an accurate picture of what the offer really is.

[Keith]

My point is that the chron either parrots what the team tells them just on their word, or is told what the contract offer actually is and doesn't understand it enough to give an accurate picture of what the offer really is.
Even Richard Justice doesn't believe what McClain reports (http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10016&postcount=18) in his own paper on Texans contract negotiations, so why should we?

[papabear]

Even Richard Justice doesn't believe what McClain reports (http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10016&postcount=18) in his own paper on Texans contract negotiations, so why should we?

it's just hard for Justice to trust anyone because we are all soooo much dumber than him.

[edo783]

So Daniels' camp is disclaiming ownership of the contract details link, and now later in that chron link above Smith says he wants to keep negotiations private. And if you want more blah blah on this, Kuharsky has a post (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcsouth/0-10-75/Might-hovering-contract-issues-distract-Texans-.html) at the worldwide.

See, now that is what makes me think the offer to Dunta is pretty darn close to what has been reported. The agent or someone would have come out and said it was horse hockey if in fact it wasn't reasonably close. Now in ODs case and possibly DRs, from what I gather, based on what I-Cak posted, they may all be squabbling over HOW the guaranteed money is to be paid. Keith would probably know this the best of anyone of us, but from what I can gather, a year or two ago the Texans moved to trying to make the contracts to where they paid the bulk of the guaranteed funds over a couple of years rather than in a big chunk at the start of the contract. I can see the agents wanting the big chunk up front so that if they get fired they at least got paid. I'm not sure if agent contracts work that way to where if they get fired they don't get paid the money in the next years or not. Actually from a player perspective it MIGHT be best for them to get it in multiple chunks from a tax perspective and naturally it is better for the team to spread and level the effects of the cash going out the door. The money is still guaranteed, just a different delivery pattern than what everyone is used to. From that sort of perspective, it does make it at least sort of comprehensible as to why two guys would be turning down deals that at least at first blush, are probably above where their play would/should place their value.

[kravix]

With so many reports about salary offers and salary demands flying around it is hard to belive any of it.

I will say that if OD really is holding out to be paid #1 instead of #4-6 as he should be getting then I would rather see him go. I dont know him personally, but he has never struck me as that kind of guy.

The fact that OD and Drob are both represented by the same agents, and all the crazyness that has gone on around these negotiations really concerns me that perhaps the agents are not on the up and up. If I remember correctly Demeco had the same guys and fired them to pick up the same agent as MW.

What if the Texans did offer #2 and the agents went to OD and gave him a different number, and the same with Drob. Is there anything the league could do after the fact to ensure that players and teams arent getting the run around from shady agents?

If, just if, any of the numbers that have come out for OD and Drob are true, and the Texans have said they offered top money to Drob, it may be possible that much of this is over structures rather than ammounts. We have a cap guru sitting in the Texans FO and it is possible that they are getting a little too cute with their contracts.

[dalemurphy]

With so many reports about salary offers and salary demands flying around it is hard to belive any of it.

I will say that if OD really is holding out to be paid #1 instead of #4-6 as he should be getting then I would rather see him go. I dont know him personally, but he has never struck me as that kind of guy.

The fact that OD and Drob are both represented by the same agents, and all the crazyness that has gone on around these negotiations really concerns me that perhaps the agents are not on the up and up. If I remember correctly Demeco had the same guys and fired them to pick up the same agent as MW.

What if the Texans did offer #2 and the agents went to OD and gave him a different number, and the same with Drob. Is there anything the league could do after the fact to ensure that players and teams arent getting the run around from shady agents?

If, just if, any of the numbers that have come out for OD and Drob are true, and the Texans have said they offered top money to Drob, it may be possible that much of this is over structures rather than ammounts. We have a cap guru sitting in the Texans FO and it is possible that they are getting a little too cute with their contracts.


Yeah, much of the discussion probably has to do with bonus triggers, options, etc... Not only is the total amount of a contract a bogus number but often, so is the guaranteed money and even the years of the contract. They are so much more complicated than we make them out to be.

[painekiller]

The fact that OD and Drob are both represented by the same agents, and all the crazyness that has gone on around these negotiations really concerns me that perhaps the agents are not on the up and up. If I remember correctly Demeco had the same guys and fired them to pick up the same agent as MW.


Dunta is repressented by Jason Chayut ,and Owen's agents are Alan Herman and David Butz.

Not sure where Lance came up with they have the same agent.

[edo783]

Dunta is repressented by Jason Chayut ,and Owen's agents are Alan Herman and David Butz.

Not sure where Lance came up with they have the same agent.

I think he said "Agent Group". Given that, these guys might be from the same firm, just different agents, but operating on some sort of group think. Not sure if that is it or not, just tossing it out there.

[barrett]

None of us have any idea on any of this. Nothing goes to the media on either side without an agenda. Not to mention the complexity of these contracts. I bet you could show most of us the actual contract, and we still wouldn't know what a guy was paid.

All these numbers are make believe and half the time are more about making an agent look good for his player than about the player getting paid. Its millions of dollars flying around with a dozen lawyers involved, and everybody is out to screw the next guy.

I think with any hold out you just have to wait and see. And even when the dust settles, we'll still probably never know half of the truth.

[Keith]

I think he said "Agent Group". Given that, these guys might be from the same firm, just different agents, but operating on some sort of group think. Not sure if that is it or not, just tossing it out there.

Yes, all three are agents from the firm Sportstars, Inc.

btw, Owen had this to say on Monday night via Facebook:
I'm still hopeful we can get a long term deal done. I'm a reasonable person and will absolutely accept a fair deal. The monetary value of the deal means less to me than the fairness of it. (i.e. to me a te deal that is two years old is no longer relevant.)

[papabear]

Yes, all three are agents from the firm Sportstars, Inc.

btw, Owen had this to say on Monday night via Facebook:


what that says to me is that the Texans are saying Winslows deal is unreasonable and we are not going to use that as a basis for a contract with Owen. O.D. is saying that's market value for a top TE right now.

[Keith]

what that says to me is that the Texans are saying Winslows deal is unreasonable and we are not going to use that as a basis for a contract with Owen. O.D. is saying that's market value for a top TE right now.You are probably right. While we may or may not think Winslow's deal is reasonable, Daniels' camp is right to reference it in the negotiations imo.

The Texans, however, still have the leverage here, especially in the absence of a new CBA. Daniels is a RFA, and there is little he can do to push his point assuming he'll cease his life as a holdout at some point. The question is just going to be how far apart the two parties are.

[nunusguy]

You are probably right. While we may or may not think Winslow's deal is reasonable, Daniels' camp is right to reference it in the negotiations imo.

The Texans, however, still have the leverage here, especially in the absence of a new CBA. Daniels is a RFA, and there is little he can do to push his point assuming he'll cease his life as a holdout at some point. The question is just going to be how far apart the two parties are.

I dunno, but it seems stunning to me how far Owen Daniels and his agents got ahead of themselves on this deal and I honestly think his demands are totally unreasonable if not outragous if he's thinking anything like 20 M guaranteed. As I recall AJ only got about 15 M in guaranteed money on his new deal just a couple years ago ?
Daniels is a good TE, but not in the league of Gonzales or Gates or others and he appears to have a very inflated idea of his value to the team. If he got what these reports seem to imply he's after, just imagine what the Texans would have to cough up for DeMeco (not to mention Mario, Shaub, & others down the road). And of course they'd have to rewrite AJs deal.
And they just drafted 2 more TEs this year and Dressen isn't a bad backup for OD, while being at 260 quite a bit bigger than OD. Now that OD has signed
his tender, isn't he ripe as trade bait ? I'd consider trading him for a high 2nd, and be all over any 1st round pick.

[barrett]

I dunno, but it seems stunning to me how far Owen Daniels and his agents got ahead of themselves on this deal and I honestly think his demands are totally unreasonable if not outragous if he's thinking anything like 20 M guaranteed. As I recall AJ only got about 15 M in guaranteed money on his new deal just a couple years ago ?
Daniels is a good TE, but not in the league of Gonzales or Gates or others and he appears to have a very inflated idea of his value to the team. If he got what these reports seem to imply he's after, just imagine what the Texans would have to cough up for DeMeco (not to mention Mario, Shaub, & others down the road). And of course they'd have to rewrite AJs deal.
And they just drafted 2 more TEs this year and Dressen isn't a bad backup for OD, while being at 260 quite a bit bigger than OD. Now that OD has signed
his tender, isn't he ripe as trade bait ? I'd consider trading him for a high 2nd, and be all over any 1st round pick.

I think all of this explains why we drafted Casey. It would appear we are hoping that Daniels can be replaced in what is a very TE friendly offense.

[Keith]

... just a couple years ago ?

I don't mean to be blunt, but this is sorta the point: Welcome to 2009. The NFL's barometer for salaries increases significantly every year.

And lest we forget, Daniels was in the Pro Bowl last year. Actually, if memory serves, he had a pretty good game, too.

It would appear we are hoping that Daniels can be replaced in what is a very TE friendly offense.

Yes, this interpretation worries me some. Are some fans damning him because they perceive the Texans as employers of a TE-friendly offense?

Daniels:
2008 70-862-2
2007 63-768-3
2006 34-352-5

Bronco Leading TEs:
2006 Tony Scheffler 18-286-4
2005 Jeb Putzier 37-481-0
2004 Jeb Putzier 36-572-2
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3
2001 Dwayne Carswell 34-299-4

You have to go back to Shannon Sharpe before you find numbers as good as Daniels'. And Sharpe's stood out among other Bronco TEs, i.e. Sharpe is the reason Sharpe was good, not just the TE-friendly offense. He was a Hall of Fame finalist this year.

Daniels has out-performed Putzier and Scheffler, the former who knew the offense better when he arrived in Houston three years ago, and the latter who was picked two rounds before Daniels. Maybe Daniels is the reason Daniels is good?

I am hopeful Casey is Daniels v2.0. Actually, I think Dreesen gets a chance before Casey. But no one knows for sure how good they can be and how soon.

btw, an extension or a re-worked contract isn't out of the question for Angry Dre, especially if his deal falls out of the top 10 or something.

[nunusguy]

And lest we forget, Daniels was in the Pro Bowl last year. Actually, if memory serves, he had a pretty good game, too.


He was Will Demps II, a guy who was a substitute on the Pro-Bowl team a couple years ago who didn't get to make the trip and was later cut by the Texans and is no longer even on the team. He may be out of football for all I know ?
As a sub Daniels got lucky when Gates or somebody cancelled out and he went to Hawaii and actually got in the game, caught a couple passes, even a TD pass. For being a lucky sub he's now worth 20 M guaranteed ?
On the other hand I say pay DeMeco, really whatever it takes because he's our best D player (sorry Mario), and the leader of the D ?

[papabear]

He was Will Demps II, a guy who was a substitute on the Pro-Bowl team a couple years ago who didn't get to make the trip and was later cut by the Texans and is no longer even on the team. He may be out of football for all I know ?
As a sub Daniels got lucky when Gates or somebody cancelled out and he went to Hawaii and actually got in the game, caught a couple passes, even a TD pass. For being a lucky sub he's now worth 20 M guaranteed ?
On the other hand I say pay DeMeco, really whatever it takes because he's our best D player (sorry Mario), and the leader of the D ?

a pro bowl nod is almost as worthless as a golden glove. The biggest difference between Will and Owen is that many people thought Owen deserved to go before an injury got him there. With Will everyone was absolutely SHOCKED that Will was even in the conversation.

If you want to get mad at anyone get mad at Tampa Bay for giving Winslow all that money.

[barrett]

I don't mean to be blunt, but this is sorta the point: Welcome to 2009. The NFL's barometer for salaries increases significantly every year.

And lest we forget, Daniels was in the Pro Bowl last year. Actually, if memory serves, he had a pretty good game, too.



Yes, this interpretation worries me some. Are some fans damning him because they perceive the Texans as employers of a TE-friendly offense?

Daniels:
2008 70-862-2
2007 63-768-3
2006 34-352-5

Bronco Leading TEs:
2006 Tony Scheffler 18-286-4
2005 Jeb Putzier 37-481-0
2004 Jeb Putzier 36-572-2
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3
2001 Dwayne Carswell 34-299-4

You have to go back to Shannon Sharpe before you find numbers as good as Daniels'. And Sharpe's stood out among other Bronco TEs, i.e. Sharpe is the reason Sharpe was good, not just the TE-friendly offense. He was a Hall of Fame finalist this year.

Daniels has out-performed Putzier and Scheffler, the former who knew the offense better when he arrived in Houston three years ago, and the latter who was picked two rounds before Daniels. Maybe Daniels is the reason Daniels is good?

I am hopeful Casey is Daniels v2.0. Actually, I think Dreesen gets a chance before Casey. But no one knows for sure how good they can be and how soon.

btw, an extension or a re-worked contract isn't out of the question for Angry Dre, especially if his deal falls out of the top 10 or something.

Denver is not Houston and the offenses are not identical. Certainly not in how we run them. The rushing stats bear that out.

Our offense is far more TE friendly than Denver's, perhaps by subtle differences in design, but certainly due to Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub.

Johnson is constantly bracketed with a safety which means our TEs are constantly working in space against LBs. There is no parallel to AJ in the Denver offense, so their TEs don't have the space or success ours have.

Additionally Schaub is characterized by mediocre arm strength, good accuracy, and getting the ball out quickly. All of these factors lend themselves to the TE getting the ball. Cutler (and even Plummer before him), are total opposites.

It is not relevant what Denver TEs do when deciding how hard it is/how much talent is needed for a Houston TE to succeed. I think Daniels is a smart and tough player who is in a perfect fit to make him look far better than he is. Not to mention that even with the good stats he was ineffective in the red zone last year, fumbled too much, and is not a great blocker. He is one of my favorite Texans, but he is nowhere near a top NFL TE.

[Bigtinylittle]

Denver is not Houston and the offenses are not identical. Certainly not in how we run them. The rushing stats bear that out.

Our offense is far more TE friendly than Denver's, perhaps by subtle differences in design, but certainly due to Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub.

Johnson is constantly bracketed with a safety which means our TEs are constantly working in space against LBs. There is no parallel to AJ in the Denver offense, so their TEs don't have the space or success ours have.

Additionally Schaub is characterized by mediocre arm strength, good accuracy, and getting the ball out quickly. All of these factors lend themselves to the TE getting the ball. Cutler (and even Plummer before him), are total opposites.

It is not relevant what Denver TEs do when deciding how hard it is/how much talent is needed for a Houston TE to succeed. I think Daniels is a smart and tough player who is in a perfect fit to make him look far better than he is. Not to mention that even with the good stats he was ineffective in the red zone last year, fumbled too much, and is not a great blocker. He is one of my favorite Texans, but he is nowhere near a top NFL TE.

This is exactly why I don't want Owen Daniels to get a huge contract. He's just not worth it. The guys you want to pay the most are the difference-makers. In other words, the guys who you are going to miss the most if they aren't in the game. I like Owen as a player, but it wouldn't make me really nervous if he was sitting out a game with an injury. I was never nervous when Putzier came in the game. Or even Dreesen. Any decent tight end is probably going to do pretty well in our offense. I would be far more worried if Schaub was sitting out. Or Andre Johnson. Or Slaton. Frankly, I would be more worried if Pitts was sitting out. Or Brown. Or Winston. Schaub waits a long time for routes to develop, something that benefits Owen's numbers a lot.

[Keith]

Denver is not Houston and the offenses are not identical. Certainly not in how we run them. The rushing stats bear that out.Of course they are not 'identical', but there is not a better comparison in the league than in the offensive system Denver ran, at least through the recent years when the current Texans head coach was Denver's offensive coordinator. Not to mention the Texans now have Denver's rushing guru, Alex Gibbs, as well. And please, let me stop there in the comparisons between Denver and Denver South or I'll be here all afternoon...

Our offense is far more TE friendly than Denver's, perhaps by subtle differences in design, but certainly due to Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub.

Johnson is constantly bracketed with a safety which means our TEs are constantly working in space against LBs. There is no parallel to AJ in the Denver offense, so their TEs don't have the space or success ours have. Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey were pretty effective in the offense. Squint a little and you might see some resemblences to Dre and Kevin Walter.

Additionally Schaub is characterized by mediocre arm strength, good accuracy, and getting the ball out quickly. All of these factors lend themselves to the TE getting the ball. Cutler (and even Plummer before him), are total opposites. I'm trying not to include the Cutler years as much since he joined after Kubiak hired with the Texans. But the Broncos did employ Brian Griese for several years during that time span under Kubiak. Mediocre table for one? Yes, please.

It is not relevant what Denver TEs do when deciding how hard it is/how much talent is needed for a Houston TE to succeed. I think Daniels is a smart and tough player who is in a perfect fit to make him look far better than he is. Not to mention that even with the good stats he was ineffective in the red zone last year, fumbled too much, and is not a great blocker. He is one of my favorite Texans, but he is nowhere near a top NFL TE.The Denver comparisons may or may not be relevant, but they offer a window into an alternate view of this offense. Until the day comes when there is no Daniels running routes for the team, evaluating his real effectiveness is a healthy bit of speculation on everyone's behalf, yours and mine both (and Owen's and Rick Smith's...).

It's just the idea of "fit" here that can be frustrating. Of course he is a fit, as Casey and Dreesen might be... they were added to the roster because of the expectations of their fit with the offense. Take a "better" TE like Winslow or Gates or Clark or Cooley or whoever you think is better... would those guys be that much more effective than Daniels in this system? Marginally, maybe, but it's speculation either way, so all we have to go on is what Daniels actually produced, which by his third season has been Pro Bowl-quality receiving stats.

btw, I realize Owen had a few dropsies in 2007, but Daniels had one fumble lost last year, the same as Winslow, Gates and Clark, and one less than Cooley. His new contract would pay him for production in 2009 and beyond mostly based on his 2008 performance and the potential he has based on that.

[barrett]

Keith, I agree with a lot of this. It definitely is speculation what anyone would do. I also agree that statistically we may not get much more out of any other top TE. The only thing I disagree on is that we won't get much less from any other TE not making top money.

I feel like Daniels is a very smart player who takes advantage of LB coverage and picks up lots of catches and first downs in the middle of the field. This is an important contribution and helped make our offense what it was. But when things tightened up on the goalline, he did not have the ability to either create space, or take the ball from the defender.

To me this is what the top 2-3 TEs are paid for. You have a bunch of guys paid similarly who can block a little and catch the football. Daniels should be paid at the top end of that range. Then you have a few guys paid a premium because they make their living catching TDs. Daniels cannot reasonably ask for premium money until he shows he is a redzone threat.

[papabear]

I feel like Daniels is a very smart player who takes advantage of LB coverage and picks up lots of catches and first downs in the middle of the field. This is an important contribution and helped make our offense what it was. But when things tightened up on the goalline, he did not have the ability to either create space, or take the ball from the defender.

To me this is what the top 2-3 TEs are paid for. You have a bunch of guys paid similarly who can block a little and catch the football. Daniels should be paid at the top end of that range. Then you have a few guys paid a premium because they make their living catching TDs. Daniels cannot reasonably ask for premium money until he shows he is a redzone threat.

This is more of a general complaint than anything else...and more of an observation really. It's so hard to judge a players effectiveness in a certain situation as a fan because we have no way of knowing how the coaches are using them. Sure, Kubes might call for a pass near the goal line, but Daniels could be the third or fourth option on many of those plays.

I think the goal line problems start and stop with the inability to run the ball in that area of the field. Plain and simple teams weren't scared of our short yardage running game and that lets them get into pass coverage sooner. When your on a short field like that there is much less ground for the defense to cover making it easier to clog up the throwing lanes. Remember none of our WR's were very effective in redzone situations either, including AJ...if they were then we wouldn't have been third in offense, but 17th in scoring (well that plus turnovers). Scoring in the redzone was a team problem.

I haven't watched all the film to say one way or the other whether or not Owen was getting open in those situations so I can't comment on that. I'm just saying that it was a problem for our whole team and without knowing the specifics of the play calls it's hard to say one way or the other if OD was the one failing to get it done. I do know that the redzone is usually a good time to use the TE, and I've wondered why we don't use them more in that situation. Owen could definitely be part of the problem, but I think it's something that goes deeper than just one guy.

[barrett]

I'm just saying that it was a problem for our whole team and without knowing the specifics of the play calls it's hard to say one way or the other if OD was the one failing to get it done.

Actually, we can say OD is not getting it done. Maybe he doesn't get the opportunities, maybe it's not his fault, but we're not talking about who is to blame for our redzone struggles. We are talking about the fact that you get paid for performance, and OD did not perform in the redzone (even if it wasn't his fault).

I do know that the redzone is usually a good time to use the TE, and I've wondered why we don't use them more in that situation. Owen could definitely be part of the problem, but I think it's something that goes deeper than just one guy.

I do agree that we can't blame it all on him, as it is definitely a whole team problem. But he is clearly not part of the solution. So, I just don't think we need to pay him like he's a redzone solution.

[papabear]

Actually, we can say OD is not getting it done. Maybe he doesn't get the opportunities, maybe it's not his fault, but we're not talking about who is to blame for our redzone struggles. We are talking about the fact that you get paid for performance, and OD did not perform in the redzone (even if it wasn't his fault).


Fair enough in regards to pay. I don't think that will hold much weight at the bargaining table because his overall numbers were so good. You do have a point though.


I do agree that we can't blame it all on him, as it is definitely a whole team problem. But he is clearly not part of the solution. So, I just don't think we need to pay him like he's a redzone solution.

I don't think he's being asked to be paid as a red zone solution. He's asked to be paid comparable to what other top TE's are earning. He's clearly has the stats to make that claim even without the big TD numbers.

I think the solution is the running game. I think one area where you can lay some of the blame on Owen is the running game. The TE can be crucial to the running game and blocking isn't his best attribute. I think he's gotten MUCH better in that area, but he will likely never be a dominant run blocker. In that sense Owen is part of the problem...although I would put more of the blame on the interior of the line with Myers and Briesel IMO.

speaking of, I've got really high hopes for Caldwell. I think he's got a chance to give us a little more meat in the short yardage game, while still being able to handle the zone scheme.

I just have a hard time believing that Owen can be a top 5 (top 10 if that makes you happier) TE in the league for over 80 yards, but be a waste of space in the last 20. I would hate for the Texans to sign him to a deal that puts them in a position to not have the opportunity to sign another player later. Being able to make the tough calls on productive players in regards to how much salary is too much is what turns good teams into dynasties. I'm just not confident enough if our front office/coaching staff that we can cast off productive players and consistently find cheaper options who don't cause a drop in production...yet.

[barrett]

Fair enough in regards to pay. I don't think that will hold much weight at the bargaining table because his overall numbers were so good. You do have a point though.



I don't think he's being asked to be paid as a red zone solution. He's asked to be paid comparable to what other top TE's are earning. He's clearly has the stats to make that claim even without the big TD numbers.

I think the solution is the running game. I think one area where you can lay some of the blame on Owen is the running game. The TE can be crucial to the running game and blocking isn't his best attribute. I think he's gotten MUCH better in that area, but he will likely never be a dominant run blocker. In that sense Owen is part of the problem...although I would put more of the blame on the interior of the line with Myers and Briesel IMO.

speaking of, I've got really high hopes for Caldwell. I think he's got a chance to give us a little more meat in the short yardage game, while still being able to handle the zone scheme.

I just have a hard time believing that Owen can be a top 5 (top 10 if that makes you happier) TE in the league for over 80 yards, but be a waste of space in the last 20. I would hate for the Texans to sign him to a deal that puts them in a position to not have the opportunity to sign another player later. Being able to make the tough calls on productive players in regards to how much salary is too much is what turns good teams into dynasties. I'm just not confident enough if our front office/coaching staff that we can cast off productive players and consistently find cheaper options who don't cause a drop in production...yet.

I agree that the interior line is most at fault in the redzone. Then probably our RB situation, and OD only after that.

While I still feel I wouldn't pay him huge, this is probably a case of offseason over-analysis as much as anything.

[dadmg]

I don't mean to be blunt, but this is sorta the point: Welcome to 2009. The NFL's barometer for salaries increases significantly every year.

And lest we forget, Daniels was in the Pro Bowl last year. Actually, if memory serves, he had a pretty good game, too.



Yes, this interpretation worries me some. Are some fans damning him because they perceive the Texans as employers of a TE-friendly offense?

Daniels:
2008 70-862-2
2007 63-768-3
2006 34-352-5

Bronco Leading TEs:
2006 Tony Scheffler 18-286-4
2005 Jeb Putzier 37-481-0
2004 Jeb Putzier 36-572-2
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3
2001 Dwayne Carswell 34-299-4

You have to go back to Shannon Sharpe before you find numbers as good as Daniels'. And Sharpe's stood out among other Bronco TEs, i.e. Sharpe is the reason Sharpe was good, not just the TE-friendly offense. He was a Hall of Fame finalist this year.

Daniels has out-performed Putzier and Scheffler, the former who knew the offense better when he arrived in Houston three years ago, and the latter who was picked two rounds before Daniels. Maybe Daniels is the reason Daniels is good?

I am hopeful Casey is Daniels v2.0. Actually, I think Dreesen gets a chance before Casey. But no one knows for sure how good they can be and how soon.

btw, an extension or a re-worked contract isn't out of the question for Angry Dre, especially if his deal falls out of the top 10 or something.

Interesting analysis, Keith. I especially liked the full article treatment on the front-page. I'm not sure I quite ready to agree with it, but it provided good food for thought. And any analysis that actually provokes thought gets a two thumbs up from me :)

My thoughts are that Owen Daniels is a good tight end (maybe even very good) but not elite. Essentially a Todd Heap-type rather than an Antonio Gates - certainly nothing to sneeze at and better than most of the league, but not a scary guy. And I'm not sure whether I would want to allocate significant cap resources to a tight end unless they were all-world (and whomever Daniels signs his next contract with will surely be allocating some serious coinage.) Going back to the table you posted on the front page, I come to a slightly different conclusion about the table you posted.


Daniels:
2008 70-862-2
2007 63-768-3
2006 34-352-5

Bronco Leading TEs:
2005 Jeb Putzier 37-481-0
2004 Jeb Putzier 36-572-2
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3
2001 Dwayne Carswell 34-299-4
2000 Dwayne Carswell 37-481-0


I'm not so sure that those numbers don't point to a tight-end friendly offense. First off, it should be noted that Desmond Clark was also a significant portion of their offense in 2000 and 2001, putting up 339 and 566 yards respectively in those years. So another version of Denver TE production could be expressed like so:

Bronco TEs:
2000 Dwayne Carswell 37-481-0 + Desmond Clark 27-339-3 = 64-820-3
2001 Desmond Clark 51-566-6 + Dwayne Carswell 34-299-4 = 85-865-10
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3 + Carswell 21-189-1 = 82-875-4
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8 + Carswell 6-53-1 = 68-823-9
2004* Jeb Putzier 36-572-2 + Carswell 22-198-1 = 58-770-3
2005* Jeb Putzier 37-481-0 + Stephen Alexander 27-170-1 = 64-651-1

*H-Back/FB/TE Kyle Johnson also contributed 9-126-2 in '04 and 17-160-5 in '05, but, as the slashes indicate, considering him just a TE is problematic.

Texans TEs:
2006 Daniels 34-352-5 + Putzier 13-125-0 = 47-477-5
2007 Daniels 63-768-3 + Putzier/Dreesen 10-94-3 = 73-862-6
2008 Daniels 70-862-2 + Dreesen 11-77-0 = 81-939-2

There are a few things I take away from this grouping. One is that OD provides the lion's share of the Texans TE production. In contrast, the Denver years have two years with split production and in the other years only once did the 2nd TE fail to pick up 170 yards. My interpretation is that this probably occurred due to a few factors. One, Daniels has been considerably better than our 2nd tight ends and has been durable enough be on the field almost all the time. The blocking TE, Bruener, the Texans have paired Daniels with was also not going to see many throws aimed his way. The other thing I notice from this grouping, though, is that the Broncos combined TE production has been similar to the Texans in the Kubiak offense. The average for the years cited for Denver TE's is 70-801-5; the average for Texans TEs is 67-759-4. If you throw out Owen's rookie year, the Texans averages are 77-900-4.

If you just compare the Bronco's top TE's to OD you get:

Bronco TEs:
2000 Dwayne Carswell 37-481-0
2001 Desmond Clark 51-566-6
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8
2004 Jeb Putzier 36-572-2
2005 Jeb Putzier 37-481-0
Average: 47-593-3

Owen Daniels:
2006 Daniels 34-352-5
2007 Daniels 63-768-3
2008 Daniels 70-862-2
OD Avg: 56-661-3

While I think that Denver chart gives a less clear view of Denver's TE dynamic, I think it's interesting because of the players involved. Dwayne Carswell was an oversized blocking TE who would convert to the offensive line late in his career; only 3 times in his career did he exceed 200 yards receiving (the two mentioned, plus one year at 201 yards.) Desmond Clark disappeared after the 2000 and 2001 campaigns, not matching his 2001 timeshare season again until 2006 when he came out of witness protection for Ron Turner's Bears offense. Sharpe, at the end of his career, was able to average 728 yards and 5 TDs at the ages of 34 and 35 in this offense.

The worst two years on the Broncos list belong to Putzier who has only 19 receptions since the 2004-05 campaigns and couldn't even muster a decent timeshare in Houston despite knowing the system. Even Putzier averaged 525 yards in his years as the #1 TE. For a guy whose done nothing since even as he entered what should have been the prime of his career, 525 yards per year makes it seem like you should be able to plug anyone whose hands aren't made of stone into this offense and get a solid level of production.

This isn't to say that Owen hasn't been better than his Denver predecessors. He has been and I think he's been a pretty good receiving weapon for us. But I'm not sure if he's worth paying him the numbers he will likely get when we can likely get decent production for considerably less money. I don't see the production gap as worth the dollar gap and I'd be willing to take my chances with a Dreesen or a Casey if it meant more money freed up to spend on Demeco, Dunta and others down the line. I'm wondering if the Texans might be thinking they might be able to match OD's production with a Casey/Hill pairing that would be similar to the Clark/Carswell grouping that combined to produce OD-like numbers. I think these next 8 months or so will be quite interesting to watch how the front office and coaching staff manage this situation.

[Keith]

I don't see the production gap as worth the dollar gap
I think this is the point where the argument boils down. Yours is an interesting counterpoint, and I think we possibly differ here on something of a philosophical perspective.

Average players are available and come and go. I think it was Charles Barkley who said the NBA was a league of all-stars, i.e. everyone who's good enough to make it can play at a real high level, but not everyone is special and truly capable of separating themselves from the rest of the 'stars'. The NFL is not the NBA, but I think the same perspective is applicable. Premium players are harder to find and they come at a price. Everyone is going to have different thresholds on what to pay.

And where to spend it. Just like with the expansion era Texans when the team had to answer a philosophical question about where to spend their top draft picks, position-wise (yes... if they were really going to go BPA, then they probably would not have forced a QB up their draft board in 2002 for example.) There's the franchise QB, the LT, the pass rusher, the shutdown corner... you have to go really far down that list before you get the seam-busting TE. This where I hesitate to open McNair's wallet ...if I was working under a strict budget.

and I'd be willing to take my chances with a Dreesen or a Casey if it meant more money freed up to spend on Demeco, Dunta and others down the line.So, yes, this assumes a sort of zero sum limited capital scenario, or at least one severely stricken by salary cap limits. While this was a concern before 2009, I'm not certain it is as concerning from here forward. The next CBA will have a lot to say here. Teams have more cap room than they need this year (a few are going to struggle to spend to the floor much less the max), and as it looks right now, there won't even be a cap in 2010.

As I said in the extended article (http://www.inthebullseye.com/archive/2009/20090623.html) (yay! I have the new software!), Daniels' negotiation is surprisingly complex because of these reasons and more. This will be an interesting situation to keep watching for sure.

[Nconroe]

I took a similar approach with this, looking at top TE salaries in 2008 and top TE stats includingTDs in 2008. I don't know if OD has been offered a fair or long term deal or exactly where he is evaluated, but I think he need to show up for practice.
Salary looks to me like 2.9 isn't too bad for a TE and some good ones make less than that, a few make more,
Skill, is it TDs or yardage or blocking , doesn't seem like that unusually special , but pretty good.

From USA Today salary Database get this
Player Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value
Gonzalez, Tony Chiefs $ 1,000,000 $ 10,000,000 $ 500,840 $ 1,500,840 $ 5,032,215
Winslow, Kellen Browns $ 4,000,000 $ 0 $ 1,607,500 $ 5,607,500 $ 4,599,584
Smith, L.J. Eagles $ 4,022,000 $ 0 $ 1,320 $ 4,023,320 $ 4,523,320
Gates, Antonio Chargers $ 3,000,000 $ 6,000,000 $ 840 $ 3,000,840 $ 4,200,840
Graham, Daniel Broncos $ 700,000 $ 10,000,000 $ 200,000 $ 900,000 $ 4,150,000
Witten, Jason Cowboys $ 1,905,000 $ 6,000,000 $ 5,760 $ 1,910,760 $ 4,110,760
McMichael, Randy Rams $ 2,900,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 1,440 $ 2,901,440 $ 3,901,440
Kleinsasser, Jim Vikings $ 2,400,000 $ 0 $ 600,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 3,850,000
Heap, Todd Ravens $ 730,000 $ 2,270,000 $ 4,680 $ 3,004,680 $ 3,502,180
Davis, Vernon 49ers $ 900,000 $ 0 $ 3,775,000 $ 4,675,000 $ 3,340,000
Shiancoe, Odai Vikings $ 2,100,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 300,000 $ 2,400,000 $ 3,200,000
Kelly, Reggie Bengals $ 2,000,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 200,000 $ 2,200,000 $ 3,200,000
Miller, Zach Raiders $ 370,000 $ 965,000 $ 5,174,880 $ 5,544,880 $ 3,139,130
Cooley, Chris Redskins $ 605,000 $ 11,000,000 $ 90,000 $ 11,695,000 $ 3,028,333
Lee, Donald Packers $ 1,600,000 $ 0 $ 1,366,720 $ 2,966,720 $ 2,881,720
Utecht, Ben Bengals $ 2,000,000 $ 2,000,000 $ 5,040 $ 4,005,040 $ 2,671,706
Clark, Dallas Colts $ 605,000 $ 11,000,000 $ 45,000 $ 11,650,000 $ 2,483,333
Shockey, Jeremy Saints $ 1,925,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 500,000 $ 2,425,000 $ 2,425,000
Clark, Desmond Bears $ 1,000,000 $ 2,000,000 $ 506,720 $ 3,506,720 $ 2,340,056
Royal, Robert Bills $ 1,675,000 $ 2,500,000 $ 152,160 $ 1,827,160 $ 2,327,160
Campbell, Dan Lions $ 1,800,000 $ 0 $ 75,000 $ 1,875,000 $ 2,315,000
Crumpler, Alge Titans $ 1,200,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 506,720 $ 2,706,720 $ 2,056,720

Is Gonzales the top TE, hear are his stats to compare, so OD is not Gonzales. More yards and lots more TD's.

GONZALEZ’S NFL STATISTICS
RECEIVING
Year Team G-S No. Yds. Avg. LG TD
1997 Kansas City 16-0 33 368 11.2 30 2
1998 Kansas City 16-16 59 621 10.5 32 2
1999 Kansas City 15-15 76 849 11.2 73 11
2000 Kansas City 16-16 93 1,203 12.9 39 9
2001 Kansas City 16-16 73 917 12.8 36 6
2002 Kansas City 16-16 63 773 12.3 42 7
2003 Kansas City 16-16 71 916 12.9 67 10
2004 Kansas City 16-16 102 1,258 12.3 32 7
Totals 127-111 570 6,905 12.1 73 54

TE in 2008 stats - from ESPN receiver ranking
RNK NAME REC YDS AVG YPG LNG TD FUM LST
12 Tony Gonzalez TE, KAN 96 1058 11.0 66.1 35 10 0 0
25 Jason Witten TE, DAL 81 952 11.8 59.5 42 4 0 0
32 Owen Daniels TE, HOU 70 862 12.3 53.9 35 2 2 1
35 Chris Cooley TE, WAS 83 849 10.2 53.1 28 1 3 2
36 Dallas Clark TE, IND 77 848 11.0 56.5 33 6 2 1

and TE ranking from nfl.com for 2008,
Rk Player Team Pos Rec Yds Avg Yds/G Lng TD 20+ 40+ 1st 1st% FUM
1 Tony Gonzalez KC TE 96 1,058 11.0 66.1 35 10 10 0 67 69.8 0
2 Chris Cooley WAS TE 83 849 10.2 53.1 28 1 7 0 43 51.8 3
3 Jason Witten DAL TE 81 952 11.8 59.5 42 4 14 1 50 61.7 0
4 Dallas Clark IND TE 77 848 11.0 56.5 33 6 13 0 41 53.2 2
5 Owen Daniels HOU TE 70 862 12.3 53.9 35 2 10 0 46 65.7 2
6 Antonio Gates SD TE 60 704 11.7 44.0 34 8 8 0 39 65.0 1
7 Bo Scaife TEN TE 58 561 9.7 35.1 44 2 4 1 29 50.0 1
8 Zach Miller OAK TE 56 778 13.9 48.6 63T 1 16 1 32 57.1 0
9 John Carlson SEA TE 55 627 11.4 39.2 33 5 10 0 36 65.5 0
10 Greg Olsen CHI TE 54 574 10.6 35.9 52 5 6 1 31 57.4 2
11 Jeremy Shockey NO TE 50 483 9.7 40.2 26 0 4 0 30 60.0 2
12 Dustin Keller NYJ TE 48 535 11.1 33.4 54 3 7 1 32 66.7 0
12 Heath Miller PIT TE 48 514 10.7 36.7 22 3 4 0 29 60.4 1
14 Billy Miller NO TE 45 579 12.9 38.6 41 1 11 1 30 66.7 0
15 Kellen Winslow CLE TE 43 428 10.0 42.8 30 3 3 0 25 58.1 1
16 Visanthe Shiancoe MIN TE 42 596 14.2 37.2 40 7 12 1 30 71.4 0
17 Desmond Clark CHI TE 41 367 9.0 22.9 35 1 5 0 18 43.9 1

and then ODs stats from nfl.com
Season Team Receiving Rushing Fumbles
G GS Rec Yds Avg Lng TD Att Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
2008 Houston Texans 16 16 70 862 12.3 35 2 -- -- -- -- -- 2 1
2007 Houston Texans 16 16 63 768 12.2 29 3 -- -- -- -- -- 4 3
2006 Houston Texans 14 12 34 352 10.4 33T 5 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
TOTAL 167 1,982 11.9 35 10 0 0 0.0 0 0 6 4


Overall, sure be fair and be realistic, OD, you have good competition to make the team now.

[dadmg]

I


So, yes, this assumes a sort of zero sum limited capital scenario, or at least one severely stricken by salary cap limits. While this was a concern before 2009, I'm not certain it is as concerning from here forward. The next CBA will have a lot to say here. Teams have more cap room than they need this year (a few are going to struggle to spend to the floor much less the max), and as it looks right now, there won't even be a cap in 2010.


When I was writing that sentence, that popped into my head and I thought about tossing in a qualifier. But, honestly, I would be surprised (not to mention very disappointed) if there was no labor agreement before the start of the off-season. The biggest problem I foresee is that the owners have more leverage (the severe restrictions on player movement and lack of a salary floor in uncapped year) but the NFLPA has a new boss and Demaurice Smith probably doesn't want to start his career being known as the guy who gave up what they got in Gene Upshaw's final negotiations (which turned out to be a windfall as he played big owners against small owners instead of against him). That worries me a little. But there's too much for both sides to lose here. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed hoping for a painless resolution even though a protracted struggle with an uncapped 2010 might benefit my team.


As I said in the extended article (http://www.inthebullseye.com/archive/2009/20090623.html) (yay! I have the new software!), Daniels' negotiation is surprisingly complex because of these reasons and more. This will be an interesting situation to keep watching for sure.

'twas interesting.

[kravix]

dadmg,

not to take from the conversation here, but my understanding is that there is more of a rift between the owners and profit sharing than there is with the NFLPA and the owners. I understnad that some teams couldnt come close to the cap without the CBA and why it crosses into both realms, and I understand why they cant negotiate them seperatly at this point because of revenue, but it would be nice if we had a new agreement in place with no uncapped year, and a rookie payscale.

I dont see how the rich owners dont understand that their salaries will be more than they pay in revenue sharing now if they dont agree. Football works because of the sharing, FA, and cap which gives it more parity.

[dadmg]

dadmg,

not to take from the conversation here, but my understanding is that there is more of a rift between the owners and profit sharing than there is with the NFLPA and the owners. I understnad that some teams couldnt come close to the cap without the CBA and why it crosses into both realms, and I understand why they cant negotiate them seperatly at this point because of revenue, but it would be nice if we had a new agreement in place with no uncapped year, and a rookie payscale.

I dont see how the rich owners dont understand that their salaries will be more than they pay in revenue sharing now if they dont agree. Football works because of the sharing, FA, and cap which gives it more parity.

Sorry, I was a bit confusing there. The rift was/is between the owners, but I've read a few articles that said Upshaw did a good job during the last round of negotiations to keep the focus on the owners rift between each other to make it more difficult for them to present a united front and bargain better against the players, which may have been how the players came away like bandits in that last round of CBA negotiations.

[cland]

In Daniels credit, I think we may be over analyzing the stats. Stats tell you a lot about your offenses scheme and offensive coaches/players success on a fairly high level. But, when you look at the TE position you have to take into account that their skills are much more about quality rather than quantity.

To put it simply, would you throw to Owen when it's 4th and 7, with the game on the line. I'd say yes, and I think Daniels has made a pretty strong case. The guy catches everything thrown his way. Dressen could probably put up %70 of Daniels numbers at %10 of the cost, but the critical game moments is when a TE earns his money.

That being said, I'll pay Daniels the top 3-4 TE money just for those critical game moments.

[Royal We Texans Off]

[barrett]

In Daniels credit, I think we may be over analyzing the stats. Stats tell you a lot about your offenses scheme and offensive coaches/players success on a fairly high level. But, when you look at the TE position you have to take into account that their skills are much more about quality rather than quantity.

To put it simply, would you throw to Owen when it's 4th and 7, with the game on the line. I'd say yes, and I think Daniels has made a pretty strong case. The guy catches everything thrown his way. Dressen could probably put up %70 of Daniels numbers at %10 of the cost, but the critical game moments is when a TE earns his money.

That being said, I'll pay Daniels the top 3-4 TE money just for those critical game moments.

[Royal We Texans Off]

Isn't the goalline where a TE has most of their "critical" moments? If so I can't see paying OD huge money.

My problem is I don't see OD as one of our most important players and I think if you pay him big (even in an uncapped situation), than you end up with a dozen other guys wanting big paydays.

Just among our skill position guys OD is the #4 option. How many #4 options see big paydays?

[Bigtinylittle]

Isn't the goalline where a TE has most of their "critical" moments? If so I can't see paying OD huge money.

My problem is I don't see OD as one of our most important players and I think if you pay him big (even in an uncapped situation), than you end up with a dozen other guys wanting big paydays.

Just among our skill position guys OD is the #4 option. How many #4 options see big paydays?


This is exactly how I see the situation. I think OD's yardage total is highly misleading in relation to his true value. I hear people like Lance Zurlein saying ''well you have to pay him what he wants anyway because those are his numbers.'' I say no you don't.

I say if you want to run a top-notch organization you don't overpay anybody if you don't have to. Personally, I will lose some respect for Rick Smith if he caves in to OD's demands. Because both Smith and Kubiak know he's not worth what he's asking for.

[da Bull]

For me, the real question is where do you put the premium (long term, high dollar contracts) when the team starts winning? We all assume, hopefully so, that it will begin this upcoming season. So, everyone participating is going to want to get paid the big bucks and there isn't going to be enough to go around. Even in an uncapped year, there is going to be a threshold of available monies just like there will be a threshold regarding fans paying escalated ticket prices, buying expensive gear and etc.

Yah, we want the guys who were on the bus while making the trip to get paid. But, I'd rather see the bus keep on rolling than be stopped for lack of gas money.

[cadams]

Isn't the goalline where a TE has most of their "critical" moments? If so I can't see paying OD huge money.

My problem is I don't see OD as one of our most important players and I think if you pay him big (even in an uncapped situation), than you end up with a dozen other guys wanting big paydays.

Just among our skill position guys OD is the #4 option. How many #4 options see big paydays?

#4 option? who are the three people you have in front of him?

AJ most certainly.

I am assuming you are including Slayton in there. He definitely had a great rookie year, but he needs to show he can continue that. Also, I guess what number slayton is depends on the situation. 3rd and 1, i got no problem saying he is top 2 options, 3rd and 7? not so sure.

You could go with walter, but i think daniels is a better option than him, and at no worse even with him.

also you have to think about positions when you make these decisions. if daniels is as good as your #2 wide receiver then he is worth much, much more than that #2. Given our scheme, daniels is often going to get matched up with a line backer since he is a tight end, which means there will often be a mismatch, you have to take that into account, and if they put a db on him, that opens up other options for the offense that wouldnt normally be there. again though, please list the three guys you have ahead of daniels. (schaub does not count)

[barrett]

#4 option? who are the three people you have in front of him?

AJ most certainly.

I am assuming you are including Slayton in there. He definitely had a great rookie year, but he needs to show he can continue that. Also, I guess what number slayton is depends on the situation. 3rd and 1, i got no problem saying he is top 2 options, 3rd and 7? not so sure.

You could go with walter, but i think daniels is a better option than him, and at no worse even with him.

also you have to think about positions when you make these decisions. if daniels is as good as your #2 wide receiver then he is worth much, much more than that #2. Given our scheme, daniels is often going to get matched up with a line backer since he is a tight end, which means there will often be a mismatch, you have to take that into account, and if they put a db on him, that opens up other options for the offense that wouldnt normally be there. again though, please list the three guys you have ahead of daniels. (schaub does not count)

The three that you easily came up with. AJ is clearly our #1 offensive option. Everything revolves around him and the way that defenses must account for him.

Slaton is clearly #2. He was a big threat in both the passing and running game. He totalled over 1650 yards from scrimmage and 10 TDs.

Walter is a notch above Daniels as well. He went for 900 yards and 8 TDs. He is reliable over the middle, on the out route, and stretches the field. Most of the time you get one of the three with a second receiver. He did them all, and he is a great blocker. Honestly he is a better run blocker than OD.

Daniels has really good numbers for a TE, but he is still the #4 option for the Texans. He is a very smart player. He is great at adjusting his routes to give Schaub an outlet against the blitz. He shows great patience getting off of the line and into his routes and avoids safety coverage by doing this (that's why he runs the backside screen so well). He's a great fit here. He is honestly one of my favorite Texans. I hope we retain him. I just don't know of many teams paying option 4 huge money.

But I will admit that I looked at the other TE contracts around the league and they have leaped up the last few years with guys like Dallas Clark getting rich and even Chris Cooley cashing in. So he is honestly not being unreasonable.

So I hope OD gets his and it doesn't keep us from keeping everyone else we need to keep (because their are probably a dozen guys I think are more important to retain).

[superbowlbound]

The three that you easily came up with. AJ is clearly our #1 offensive option. Everything revolves around him and the way that defenses must account for him.

Slaton is clearly #2. He was a big threat in both the passing and running game. He totalled over 1650 yards from scrimmage and 10 TDs.

Walter is a notch above Daniels as well. He went for 900 yards and 8 TDs. He is reliable over the middle, on the out route, and stretches the field. Most of the time you get one of the three with a second receiver. He did them all, and he is a great blocker. Honestly he is a better run blocker than OD.

Daniels has really good numbers for a TE, but he is still the #4 option for the Texans. He is a very smart player. He is great at adjusting his routes to give Schaub an outlet against the blitz. He shows great patience getting off of the line and into his routes and avoids safety coverage by doing this (that's why he runs the backside screen so well). He's a great fit here. He is honestly one of my favorite Texans. I hope we retain him. I just don't know of many teams paying option 4 huge money.

But I will admit that I looked at the other TE contracts around the league and they have leaped up the last few years with guys like Dallas Clark getting rich and even Chris Cooley cashing in. So he is honestly not being unreasonable.

So I hope OD gets his and it doesn't keep us from keeping everyone else we need to keep (because their are probably a dozen guys I think are more important to retain).

I'm not disagreeing entirely with you, as I think you're pretty much correct, save a bit of the walter argument. While the numbers don't lie, and his TD numbers were better than Daniels, what? 4 times over? But I think you underestimate his value as a security blanket, especially given how small slaton is. You really don't want slaton having to catch too many balls with his back to the defense in the middle of the field. Daniels does a great job as an outlet, which further increases his value. a reliable guy that can play in the seams and stretch the field from the TE position is not that easily found. As a reliable outlet in the flats, he saves wear on the only solid back on this roster, and allows Matt to stay in a rhythm by completing passes rather than eating sacks or chucking it out of bounds. The fact of the matter is that Daniels is easily one of the best TE's in football, and when guys like LJ Smith and Jim Kleinsasser are nearly lapping him in terms of cap numbers, the dude is owed a raise. period.

Also, you say that Walter is a much better run blocker than daniels, but look at who he's blocking. Daniels is up against strong side defensive ends and linebackers, while walter is blocking #2 CB's. when there's an 80 lb difference between the defenders in question, that argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, Daniels is an adequate, willing run blocker, so I don't see that as much of an issue.

[barrett]

I'm not disagreeing entirely with you, as I think you're pretty much correct, save a bit of the walter argument. While the numbers don't lie, and his TD numbers were better than Daniels, what? 4 times over? But I think you underestimate his value as a security blanket, especially given how small slaton is. You really don't want slaton having to catch too many balls with his back to the defense in the middle of the field. Daniels does a great job as an outlet, which further increases his value. a reliable guy that can play in the seams and stretch the field from the TE position is not that easily found. As a reliable outlet in the flats, he saves wear on the only solid back on this roster, and allows Matt to stay in a rhythm by completing passes rather than eating sacks or chucking it out of bounds. The fact of the matter is that Daniels is easily one of the best TE's in football, and when guys like LJ Smith and Jim Kleinsasser are nearly lapping him in terms of cap numbers, the dude is owed a raise. period.

Also, you say that Walter is a much better run blocker than daniels, but look at who he's blocking. Daniels is up against strong side defensive ends and linebackers, while walter is blocking #2 CB's. when there's an 80 lb difference between the defenders in question, that argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, Daniels is an adequate, willing run blocker, so I don't see that as much of an issue.

I agree with you here that he deserves a raise. I balk at how much out of gut reaction, but with my last post I went and looked at TE salaries and saw I was wrong about where they are at. It appears OD is not being unreasonable, and I hope he gets paid commensurate for what he does.

But I disagree regarding the blocking. Walter is often cracking in our run game and I have seen him stone LBs and be a willing speed bump for DL. OD on the other hand is often put in motion in the run game and is matched up heads up very rarely with a LB on the play side in our offense. Walter is a great run blocker and is far more eager for contact than daniels. But OD is a pass catching TE who is split off the line regularly so I have no problem with him not being a 6th OL in the run game. Honestly he 'blocks' more effectively by being a good receiver, spreading the field, and not tipping run or pass by being on the field than he does by actually blocking. But either way, I think Walter is a better option in the offense, and a very complete player. There are not many better WR2s in the NFL. Walter for a 7th rounder was probably our best trade ever.

[papabear]

There are not many better WR2s in the NFL. Walter for a 7th rounder was probably our best trade ever.

Getting Walter was a brilliant move. I know he plays opposite Andre Johnson, but if you look back before he got here everyone was screaming that we needed a legitimate #2 to take some pressure off of Dre. Now that he's done that no one wants to give him credit for being a good WR (I'm not even going to put the #2 label on that). I'm not saying that playing alongside Dre doesn't help a ton, it does, but if it was so easy to operate across from Dre then why were our other receivers so bad before...besides the person throwing to them.

As far as blocking goes. Walter probably ranks higher as a blocker among WR's than Daniels does among TE's. I don't know that I would rate Walter as a better blocker straight up against OD though. OD has gotten much better as a blocker since he's been here, and I don't see any reason why his technique won't continue to improve.

[Bigtinylittle]

I'm not saying that playing alongside Dre doesn't help a ton, it does, but if it was so easy to operate across from Dre then why were our other receivers so bad before...besides the person throwing to them.




I think Walter is clearly more valuable to the Texans than Daniels. I think the offense itself is what makes Owen's stats look so good. I have the feeling that if HWSRN were still here, Owen's stats would be so much lower that he would probably be asking for less than 3 million and hoping like hell he could get it.

I think it is a mistake to look at what other TEs are getting. To me, Daniels is much more replacable than Schaub, Slaton, Andre Johnson, or Walters. In fact, we may already have his replacement on the team, at a HUGE savings over what Daniels is asking. In fact, if we would receive the compensation in talent that a "top five" tight end is supposedly worth, I would trade Owen in a heartbeat and take my chances with what we have now. It seems to me we could get a top notch DT or a top notch SS for what Daniels is asking.

[papabear]

I think the offense itself is what makes Owen's stats look so good.

Is the offense the reason for it, or did Kubiak intentionally give the TE's bigger role as he began to see what a good one he had. Chicken or the egg thing, and there's no way to prove ones right and ones wrong really. Coaches have a system, but the details of the system change week to week. Kubiak wants to run the ball, but we weren't that succesfull with that until the line got together and we got a better running back...in what was supposed to be a "plug and play" offense for RB's that could succeed with low round talent.


I think it is a mistake to look at what other TEs are getting.

It could be a mistake to pay what other TE's are getting, but Daniels has every rite to ask for similar amounts. That's how the majority of contracts are determined in the NFL. Winslow and Clark have set the bar so to speak, whether we like it or not. If Owen was an older player I would probably be willing to drive him to the airport myself.

To me, Daniels is much more replaceable than Schaub, Slaton, Andre Johnson, or Walters. In fact, we may already have his replacement on the team, at a HUGE savings over what Daniels is asking.

Daniels likely is more replaceable than those guys, but that's a risky game to play; especially when a player is entering the prime of his career. No matter how much we like a rookie, it's always a crap shoot. Just because we had success with one late round TE doesn't mean we will with another. The Casey hype is getting a little out of hand IMO. I'm intrigued by him, and it's a great story because he's local. I hope he finds a place on the team and is very successful. The idea that a fifth round pick is going to come in and immediately replace 70 catches and 800+ yards is silly to me. It could happen, but that's something you can't depend on. I'm sure we would be just fine without Owen, but one other thing to remember is that Owen has worked hard at his blcoking since coming into the NFL to get where he's at now....which is only average at best. Casey has just as much, if not more, work to do in that department. If Casey was the starter we would likely revert to the days when the defense can tell what play we were running by which TE was in the game for a while.




In fact, if we would receive the compensation in talent that a "top five" tight end is supposedly worth, I would trade Owen in a heartbeat and take my chances with what we have now. It seems to me we could get a top notch DT or a top notch SS for what Daniels is asking.

No way you get a top flight DT. Those are way to rare in today's NFL. At this point ANY trade is very unlikely. If it was going to happen it would have happened at the draft. The only likely scenarios at this point are that we either agree to a long term deal with him, or he plays under the one year tender and we do it all over again next year...as either a RFA or FA depending on if there's a new CBA. If he's a FA next year then I would guess the chances of him being a Texan are very low.

[superbowlbound]

Barrett, I don't think I could agree with you more about the KW acquisition. Kevin Walter for a 7th round pick was on the same level as Luis Scola for Visilis Spinoulis. You're absolutely right. Walter is one of the most underrated players in the NFL. Just last night, as a matter of fact, I was having a discussion with a dude at the bar about this very subject, and then the passing game as a whole. He was saying that Kevin Walter sucks, that he shows up for 3 games a year, and is useless the rest of the time. Then I spouted off his numbers. "Damn, that good, huh?" And I told him to name me 5 #2 WR's better than him, and he couldn't get past anquan boldin and wes welker.

PB, You said exactly what I was trying to say about OD/KW's blocking.

BTL, Yes, with a crappy quarterback, OD's numbers would be far less, but so would KW's and Slaton's. Dre's gonna get his anyway. The way I see it, the only serious deficiency that OD has is that he doesn't catch TD's, while KW does. Let's take a moment to consider something. Now I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, so I don't know how many of KW's td's were from 20 yds and out, but I think it's pretty safe to say that he scored most often from inside the red zone, yeah? The TE is traditionally a much bigger target in the red zone, and when you have a good one, he must be accounted for by the defense. Now you've got one of the 2 best receivers in football on one side, and a top tier TE in the red zone. Those are two guys that will definitely be accounted for. Perhaps Walter is able to get open a little more often in the end zone because he's the guy the other team decided was going to be the one that beat them, if he could do it. You pick your poison, and it's not unreasonable to think that perhaps, in the red zone, teams pick Walter

[barrett]

Walter's 8 TDs were 14, 5, 8, 7, 39, 60, 17, and 58.

So he found the endzone from all over the field and had a number of long catches on the year in addition to the TDs. Walter benefits from the overall offensive talent and beats man coverage just like Daniels benefits from the overall offensive talent and beats man coverage. But in the Redzone, OD has little to do with Walter's performance. Teams are not shading goalline coverage towards a guy who does not catch TDs. Rather I think both guys benefit hugely from AJ and Walter just does a better job of cashing in in the redzone.

Either way I think Daniels is more "replacable", but I sincerely hope we don't have to replace any positive working part on our roster unless we are getting back a haul in return.

[cadams]

Teams are not shading goalline coverage towards a guy who does not catch TDs. Rather I think both guys benefit hugely from AJ and Walter just does a better job of cashing in in the redzone.

Either way I think Daniels is more "replacable", but I sincerely hope we don't have to replace any positive working part on our roster unless we are getting back a haul in return.

We aren't going to change anyone's mind here, but I couldn't disagree more. Daniels is a tight end with wr hands and playmaking ability. In my opinion, that is much more valuable than you are giving it credit for. Teams have to scheme for Daniels because he is such a good player AT HIS POSITION. Week in and week out most teams don't have to worry about having a tight end on the opposing team with OD's skill set, therefore when they are getting ready to play the texans, they have to take that into account and plan ways to try to neutralize him. When you add that to the fact that AJ is one of the 2 best WRs in the league, it is going to give defenses fits, and allows for Walter, who is a top notch #2 to take advantage of the situation (which he does). Having to account for OD's skill sets also likely helps the run game as well, as teams have to put a guy in coverage they might normally leave in the box.

You can't really think that you could take OD out, put a rookie or another unproven player in, and it wouldn't have a negative effect on this offense.

[papabear]

On the whole TD thing. I don't think you can say that a player isn't effective in goal line situations unless you can point to something tangible as to why. Without going back and looking at the tape it's hard for me to say. Maybe Daniels was open, but was often option 3 or 4 and the progression never got to him. Maybe he just couldn't get open. I think our problems in the redzone/goaline were a product of not running the ball well in those situations.

Andre Johnson TD's by year:
4
6
2
5
8
8

OD

5
3
2

You can see the improvement with Dre over the last few years, but even his TD numbers aren't as dominant the rest of his passing statistics. At least a handful of those came from farther out than the redzone too. No one would make an argument that Dre isn't as affective weapon in the red zone. My point is we just aren't that good down there, so I view it more of an incomplete grade than an actual limitation to his game.

[TheMatrix31]

I don't think we're at the point of our existence where we can say one player is replacable. Our biggest problem is consistency, and keeping a team together is the key to developing that consistency. Owen is much more, but at the very least, he's crucial security blanket for Schaub.

Gotta keep him.

[barrett]

We aren't going to change anyone's mind here, but I couldn't disagree more. Daniels is a tight end with wr hands and playmaking ability. In my opinion, that is much more valuable than you are giving it credit for. Teams have to scheme for Daniels because he is such a good player AT HIS POSITION. Week in and week out most teams don't have to worry about having a tight end on the opposing team with OD's skill set, therefore when they are getting ready to play the texans, they have to take that into account and plan ways to try to neutralize him. When you add that to the fact that AJ is one of the 2 best WRs in the league, it is going to give defenses fits, and allows for Walter, who is a top notch #2 to take advantage of the situation (which he does). Having to account for OD's skill sets also likely helps the run game as well, as teams have to put a guy in coverage they might normally leave in the box.

You can't really think that you could take OD out, put a rookie or another unproven player in, and it wouldn't have a negative effect on this offense.

I didn't say you could put a rookie in and not be hurt. I said I hope we don't have to replace any positive working part. We would take a hit by taking OD out of the lineup. How big is debatable, but whether we would take one is not.

[Keith]

Owen Daniels was on ESPN's First Take earlier today.

On his contract talks:
"...kinda still a little disappointed in the way things are going. Hopefully we can get something done before camp.

Houston is the place I want to be. I love playing for Coach Kubiak. I love the fans there. I love all my teammates. ..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oprH1bOTyn0

[WMH]

This has got to make Rick Smith cringed a little.....

From PFT:
Steelers tight end Heath Miller, who would have been a restricted free agent in March 2010 absent a new labor deal, nevertheless reeled in a six-year, $35.3 million deal prior to the final year of his rookie contract.

[dalemurphy]

This has got to make Rick Smith cringed a little.....

From PFT:
Steelers tight end Heath Miller, who would have been a restricted free agent in March 2010 absent a new labor deal, nevertheless reeled in a six-year, $35.3 million deal prior to the final year of his rookie contract.

But only about 12.5 million is guaranteed, according to what I've seen. I would think the Texans would do a deal like that.

[Nconroe]

And OD was at training camp this morning. that's good.

[Keith]

And OD was at training camp this morning. that's good.
chron tweet:
TE Owen Daniels said there are no contract talks right now. "We'd like to talk."

I'm guessing the team has been busy on getting Barwin and Cushing inked this week. Daniels (and Ryans for that matter) are already under contract and obligated to attend unless they want to pay fines.

[nunusguy]

But only about 12.5 million is guaranteed, according to what I've seen. I would think the Texans would do a deal like that.

12.5 Million is very reasonable, comparitively speaking which is relevant to say the least. And TB gave Winslow 19-20 million guaranteed right ? This
deal makes Winslows deal look even sillier now.
I mean I realize that the guaranteed money isn't the only significant term of the contract, but it's probably the single most important ?

[WMH]

Could it be possible that they are delaying OD to see what Casey has to offer? I mean, they can't pay everyone top dollar, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. I am an OD fan, and hope he stays, but the reality is they have some big time contracts/bonuses coming due, and they are going to have to make some pretty tough decisions.

CBA resolution or not, even if the cap leaves for a season, there will be a cap again. I would imagine that most teams will operate in the same manner as if there is a cap, or even a little more frugal, and not too get too crazy if there ends up being a single uncapped year.

[Keith]

Lance Z. has captured some of the Daniels soundbites from after practice this morning.

Owen Daniels is not happy with the Texans. He reported to camp and is ready to get to work, but he let it be known that he's unhappy that there appears to be no negotiating on the Texans part whatsoever and he let his feeling be known after the morning session or practice. ...


http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2009/07/post_110.html

[NBT]

OD just needs to be patient awhile longer. The Texans have to get all the draft picks signed and in to TC before they can begin to address Daniels and Robinson, IMOG.

[Keith]

Rick Smith's comments:

“I’m disappointed we didn’t get a deal done because that’s something that's important to me," Smith said about Daniels. "We’re going to build this team through the draft, and that means that we’ve got to get our good players under contract long term. That was a big goal of ours this offseason that we didn’t accomplish.

"He’s under contract this year, and we’re not discussing his contract at this time. But we’ll have another opportunity to sit down and try to get him under contract long term. I'm not putting a timetable on it. He and I had a long conversation last night, and I expressed our feelings to him, and he expressed his feelings to us. We walked out of that meeting with an understanding about where we each sit. I will say again that he is a vital part of our team and our future, and we certainly intend to keep him around here for a long time.”
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6556278.html

[cland]

I wonder if the Texans' haven't decided to go with a Lightening-Thunder combination after viewing film, or maybe the idea came from Alex Gibbs. That concept explains the drafting of James Casey and Antonio Hill, and maybe the reluctance to sign Daniels.

Let Daniels play while the new guys learn, and shift to the L/T scheme fully next year, and netting some cap savings.

[Nconroe]

1560 radio had a nice interview with OD while ago. This is what I think he said. He said he had a nice talk with Kubiak and Smith yesterday. He said he liked Houston, Texans and wanted to be here his whole career. He said when he's at practice he only thinks of being a good player and the team winning, or something like that. Then he said he was scared his plans for a long career here might not happen.

My thought is for OD to stop negotiating in public, don't critique your bosses in public unless all positive, and then good things will come in due time, like pretty soon. Spouting off in public probably makes things more difficult for your bosses. And be reasonable- big, big pay days take more than one good year, you're still a young man. if not right away, always play your hardest, be very positive, your payday will come. and btw, your current contract ain't that bad, almost 3 mil a year. I guess Smith will get to this after Cushing is done.

From first day of camp quotes, looks like Demeco and Owen both ready to play and leave new contracts as a separate business issue, more positive than I thought perhaps.

[superbowlbound]

I really don't see any negatives to locking up OD long-term, especially in the neighborhood of 12.5 guaranteed. Even if Casey turns out to be a savior, a pro-bowl tight end certainly has value on the trade market. 2nd round picks can turn into pretty damn effective players, and OD would certainly demand at least 1 of those. Besides, aside from his expressing his disappointment in not having a long-term deal (which is pretty nit-picky, imo), the guy has done absolutely everything right. he didn't even miss a day of OTA's, when a holdout would have been standard operating procedure for a player in his position. He's been uber-effective, at a very low cost, since he got here. He's earned a reasonable payday. I still think we have a new deal for OD before they put on the pads for real.

[kravix]

He's earned a reasonable payday. I still think we have a new deal for OD before they put on the pads for real.

I agree, but top 4 is slightly above reasonable for me, and number one, if even for a year, is over the top. Smith has said they offered a reasonable deal to him, no one knows what that was for sure but it what McClain reported was true then OD has become unreasonable and doesnt really want to play here.

[dadmg]

I really don't see any negatives to locking up OD long-term, especially in the neighborhood of 12.5 guaranteed. Even if Casey turns out to be a savior, a pro-bowl tight end certainly has value on the trade market.

A pro bowl TE does have trade value, but, its unlikely we will have any interest in trading him because guaranteed money would likely make it prohibitive early in the contract.