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mussop
01-19-2009, 11:31 AM
QB N 6
Graham Harrell Texas Tech

QB N 7
Rhett Bomar Sam Houston State

QB N 10
Nathan Brown Central Arkansas

QB S 10
Cullen Harper Clemson

QB S 14
John Parker Wilson Alabama

QB S 5
Pat White West Virginia

RB N 23
Kory Sheets Purdue

RB N 24
Jeremiah Johnson Oregon

RB N 37
Cedric Peerman Virginia

RB N 36
Eric Kettani Navy

RB S 22
James Davis Clemson

RB S 23
Rashad Jennings Liberty

RB S 24
Andre Brown North Carolina State

RB S 27
Arian Foster Tennessee

FB N 43
Tony Fiammetta Syracuse

FB S 45
Quinn Johnson LSU

WR N 1
Brooks Foster North Carolina

WR N 2
Derrick Williams Penn State

WR N 4
Brandon Gibson Washington State

WR N 9
Juaquin Iglesias Oklahoma

WR N 11
Ramses Barden Cal Poly

WR N 80
Brian Robiskie Ohio State

WR S 1
Mo Massaquoi Georgia

WR S 4
Mike Thomas Arizona

WR S 6
Quan Cosby Texas

WR S 7
Patrick Turner Southern Califrnia

WR S 9
Mike Wallace Mississippi

WR S 11
Kenny McKinley South Carolina

TE N 82
Connor Barwin Cincinnati

TE N 85
John Phillips Virginia

TE N 87
Brandon Pettigrew Oklahoma State

TE S 81
Shawn Nelson Southern Mississippi

TE S 83
Travis McCall Alabama

TE S 85
Anthony Hill North Carolina State

C N 51
Alex Mack California

C N 60
Max Unger Oregon

C N 72
Ryan Shuman Virginia Tech

C S 59
Antoine Caldwell Alabama

C S 60
Eric Wood Louisville

C S 63
Jonathan Luigs Arkansas

OG N 63
Kraig Urbik Wisconsin

OG N 66
Andy Levitre Oregon State

OG N 76
Trevor Canfield Cincinnati

OG S 71
Tyronne Green Auburn

OG S 75
Anthony Parker Tennessee

OG S 79
Herman Johnson LSU

OT N 64
William Beatty UConn

OT N 68
Xavier Fulton Illinois

OT N 79
Phil Loadholt Oklahoma

OT S 76
Troy Kropog Tulane

OT S 77
Jason Watkins Florida

OT S 74
Michael Oher Mississippi

DT N 90
B.J. Raji Boston College

DT N 92
Ron Brace Boston College

DT N 94
Ziggy Hood Missouri

DT S 75
Fili Moala Southern California

DT S 90
Corey Irvin Georgia

DT S 98
Peria Jerry Mississippi

DT S 99
Vance Walker Georgia Tech

DE/T N 81
Will Johnson Illinois

DE N 51
Larry English Northern Illinois

DE N 52
Cody Brown UConn

DE N 91
Tim Jamison Mchigan

DE/T N 97
Mitch King Iowa

DE S 84
Kyle Moore Southern California

DE S 91
Robert Ayers Tennessee

DE S 92
David Veikune Hawaii

DE S 95
Lawrence Sidbury Richmond

LB/DB N 5
Nik Harris Oklahoma

LB N 40
Scott McKillop Pittsburgh

LB N 50
Clint Sintim Virginia

LB N 54
Tyrone McKenzie South Florida

LB N 55
Marcus Feeman Ohio State

LB N 56
Zack Follett California

LB S 10
Brian Cushing Southern California

LB S 11
Ashlee Palmer Mississippi

LB/DE S 47
Clay Matthews Southern California

LB S 48
Darry Beckwith LSU

LB S 58
Rey Maualuga Southern California

LB S 59
Moise Fokou Maryland

CB N 1
Darius Butler UConn

CB N 4
Victor 'Macho' Harris Virginia Tech

CB N 6
DeAngelo Smith Cincinnati

CB N 16
Keenan Lewis Oregon State

CB N 17
Mike Mickens Cincinnati

CB S 1
Coye Francies San Jose State

CB S 2
Alphonso Smith Wake Forest

CB S 4
Ellis Langster West Virgina

CB S 16
Domonique Johnson Jackson State

CB S 6
Sherrod Martin Troy

S N 11
William Moore Missouri

S N 15
Patrick Chung Oregon

S N 25
Louis Delmas Western Michigan

S N 27
David Bruton Notre Dame

S S 3
Derek Pegues Mississippi State

S S 9
Chip Vaughn Wake Forest

S S 25
Michael Hamlin Clemson

S S 49
Rashad Johnson Alabama

P N 47
Kevin Huber Cincinnati

P S 15
Thomas Morsted SMU

PK N 35
Louie Sakoda Utah

PK S 40
Patrick McAfee West Virginia

LS N 57
Mark Estermeyer Pittsburgh

LS S 57
Jake Ingram Hawaii

jppaul
01-19-2009, 11:53 AM
Man I am excited, this is gonna be sweet. Unlike previous years though I am not sure I see a definitive top 10er. There are some candidates of course, with Malualaga, Oher and Raji, but not surefire top ten prospects.

Keith
01-19-2009, 02:40 PM
I am pretty excited to watch the practices. They are airing (beginning with practice day 1 today) on the NFL Network. If you miss it, try to catch Path to the Draft (http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/showscontent?page=/nflnetwork/programs/pathtothedraft&subjectType=pathtothedraft) for recaps. There is one on tonight at 7pm CT (with repeats at 11:30p and 9a the next morning).

Official Senior Bowl website: http://www.seniorbowl.com/

Roy P
01-19-2009, 06:43 PM
I am pretty excited to watch the practices.

Official Senior Bowl website: http://www.seniorbowl.com/

Well, Raji was an impressive big dude in the middle. I'd imagine some 3-4 team is going to like what he offers before #15.

I liked seeing DE/OLB Cody Brown getting in the backfield in the 11 on 11 drills. He also got swallowed a couple of times by Loadholt on the one on one.

DE Will Davis also made me happy.

Both Unger and Mack are pretty decent at C.

Ron Brace is a bull rusher, but I still need to see some more.

Ziggy Hood was doing his Freeny spin move on the interior.

I didn't see too much to comment upon about the Secondary or LBs.

painekiller
01-19-2009, 11:44 PM
Well, Raji was an impressive big dude in the middle. I'd imagine some 3-4 team is going to like what he offers before #15.

I liked seeing DE/OLB Cody Brown getting in the backfield in the 11 on 11 drills. He also got swallowed a couple of times by Loadholt on the one on one.

DE Will Davis also made me happy.

Both Unger and Mack are pretty decent at C.

Ron Brace is a bull rusher, but I still need to see some more.

Ziggy Hood was doing his Freeny spin move on the interior.

I didn't see too much to comment upon about the Secondary or LBs.

Ditt o on the observations.

The hard part about watching the TV, was they are talking about helments, and Raji is going one on one with Mack. They missed it.

I do not care about the QBs, first off the guys they have in Mobile are not guys we will be considering, most sports fans only want to know about the QBs, so that is what they talk about. Chicks dig QBs.

We're in a minority at this site. We want to guess the teams UDFA signing in January.

Brace is a bull rusher and that is all he is. But he always seemed to be moving his man backwards. Remember his position, NT is about lower body strength, and he has that.

I have been in envy of Ziggy Hood, that man is special, and currently he is not a top pick, What if we wanted to take Raji in the 1st and Hood in the 3rd? That would give you some rotational possibilities at DTs that would challenge offenses. Raji/Okoye, Okoye/Hood, Okam/Raji. Pick your poison. Not what I am thinking will happen, but it does make me think ...

Where the LBs even there today?

Keith
01-19-2009, 11:49 PM
Given the geographic drafting tendencies of Dale Strahm (http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23), the team's college scouting director, I think we can narrow down the list of players we should watch this week...


QB S 10 Cullen Harper Clemson
QB S 14 John Parker Wilson Alabama
QB S 5 Pat White West Virginia
RB N 37 Cedric Peerman Virginia
RB S 22 James Davis Clemson
RB S 23 Rashad Jennings Liberty
RB S 24 Andre Brown North Carolina State
WR N 1 Brooks Foster North Carolina
WR S 1 Mo Massaquoi Georgia
WR S 11 Kenny McKinley South Carolina
TE N 85 John Phillips Virginia
TE S 83 Travis McCall Alabama
TE S 85 Anthony Hill North Carolina State
C N 72 Ryan Shuman Virginia Tech
C S 59 Antoine Caldwell Alabama
DT S 90 Corey Irvin Georgia
DT S 99 Vance Walker Georgia Tech
LB N 50 Clint Sintim Virginia
CB N 4 Victor 'Macho' Harris Virginia Tech
CB S 2 Alphonso Smith Wake Forest
CB S 4 Ellis Langster West Virgina
CB S 6 Sherrod Martin Troy
S S 9 Chip Vaughn Wake Forest
S S 25 Michael Hamlin Clemson
S S 49 Rashad Johnson Alabama
PK S 40 Patrick McAfee West Virginia


Seems safe to say a couple of these guys will be high on the team's draft boards very soon. :p

Roy P
01-19-2009, 11:55 PM
Given the geographic drafting tendencies of Dale Strahm (http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23), the team's college scouting director, I think we can narrow down the list of players we should watch this week...



Seems safe to say a couple of these guys will be high on the team's draft boards very soon. :p

Originally Posted by mussop

QB S 14 John Parker Wilson Alabama
RB S 22 James Davis Clemson
RB S 23 Rashad Jennings Liberty
RB S 24 Andre Brown North Carolina State
WR N 1 Brooks Foster North Carolina
WR S 1 Mo Massaquoi Georgia
WR S 11 Kenny McKinley South Carolina
C S 59 Antoine Caldwell Alabama
DT S 90 Corey Irvin Georgia
DT S 99 Vance Walker Georgia Tech
LB N 50 Clint Sintim Virginia
CB S 2 Alphonso Smith Wake Forest
S S 9 Chip Vaughn Wake Forest
S S 25 Michael Hamlin Clemson
S S 49 Rashad Johnson Alabama


I figured that I would narrow down the list to guys that meet my eyeball filter.

mussop
01-20-2009, 05:56 AM
Ditt o on the observations.

The hard part about watching the TV, was they are talking about helments, and Raji is going one on one with Mack. They missed it.

I do not care about the QBs, first off the guys they have in Mobile are not guys we will be considering, most sports fans only want to know about the QBs, so that is what they talk about. Chicks dig QBs.

We're in a minority at this site. We want to guess the teams UDFA signing in January.

Brace is a bull rusher and that is all he is. But he always seemed to be moving his man backwards. Remember his position, NT is about lower body strength, and he has that.

I have been in envy of Ziggy Hood, that man is special, and currently he is not a top pick, What if we wanted to take Raji in the 1st and Hood in the 3rd? That would give you some rotational possibilities at DTs that would challenge offenses. Raji/Okoye, Okoye/Hood, Okam/Raji. Pick your poison. Not what I am thinking will happen, but it does make me think ...

Where the LBs even there today?

My dam dvr didnt record the first practice. :mad: The path to the draft was a joke. What waste of time. Can anyone tell me how Raji and Unger looked. I would appreciate it.

painekiller
01-20-2009, 09:05 AM
My dam dvr didnt record the first practice. :mad: The path to the draft was a joke. What waste of time. Can anyone tell me how Raji and Unger looked. I would appreciate it.

Raji won most of his battles, but the one on one drill for linemen is by nature defense freindly. IMO Raji looks very solid.

Unger and Mack both held their own, both got beat, but both also had a couple battles they won. Mack's knees braces could be a concern, also he did not appear as quick footed as I had hoped. But I freely admit, I need to watch him much closer before dismissing him.

The DT that jumped off the screen was Ziggy Hood, from Mizzou.

Not a full report but at least it's something.

mussop
01-20-2009, 10:56 AM
Raji won most of his battles, but the one on one drill for linemen is by nature defense freindly. IMO Raji looks very solid.

Unger and Mack both held their own, both got beat, but both also had a couple battles they won. Mack's knees braces could be a concern, also he did not appear as quick footed as I had hoped. But I freely admit, I need to watch him much closer before dismissing him.

The DT that jumped off the screen was Ziggy Hood, from Mizzou.

Not a full report but at least it's something.


THANK YOU!!! Any report is appreciated.

painekiller
01-20-2009, 11:18 AM
Just a few quickies about the morning practice.

William Moore - another practice like he had today and I erase his name. What happen to this kid?

Patrick Chung -Boy was I wrong about him being a Roy Williams type, the kid can cover. He is now jumping to the top of my S list.

Another player who is rising up my list is Macho Harris. Solid in coverage, press coverage at least. He is a player.

The OL looked better in one on one drills today.

Running back from Purdue, Kory Sheets is someone we need to keep our eyes on. He is competitor.

bono
01-20-2009, 02:07 PM
it'd also be great to have a DB named MACHO

papabear
01-20-2009, 03:05 PM
A quick report from SI-

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/01/19/senior.bowl.day1/index.html


Rashad Jennings/RB/Liberty sounds interesting. I know nothing about him other than this report:

Rashad Jennings/RB/Liberty: Jennings is the top small school player in Mobile this week and proved as much in Day 1. His 234-pound frame looked impressive this morning during weigh-ins, then Jennings looked athletic and fast on the field at practice. He has a burst through the hole and looks frighteningly powerful running in the open field. Jennings also caught the ball well and stood out in blocking drills.

painekiller
01-20-2009, 09:57 PM
A few more notes from my observations.

Morning: If we needed a true TE, then Brandon Pettigrew would be our pick at #15. The man is a blocking machine, and he can get up field, solid player who we do not need.

A guy we might look at Andy Levitre, OT Oregon St.. He will be a middle guy at the next level, might be able to transfer to OC.

Another guy lower in the draft that looked solid was Ryan Shuman VTech, he is another OC/OG type. He looked solid in the 1 on 1.

A guy we probable do not draft, but who will be a player is Mitch King, DT Iowa. He is undersized but he is so quick, only Ziggy Hood has looked quicker in the middle.

Afternooon Notes:
Andre Brown RB NC St. a 2nd day guy? who could be a solid #2 RB. He weighs 228lbs ,and showed a good burst through the hole.

Rashad Johnson S Alabama, the kid is a player, he is my #2 safety behind Chung. Yes Moore has dropped that much in my eyes.

Rey Maualuga was man handled by Shawn Nelson TE Southern Miss. Nelson is known as a pass catcher, not a blocker, and he handled Rey Rey twice IIRC.

I am not impressed by Rey Rey at all. Cushing is a stud, not sure if I want him at #15, but he will be a player. I missed this in my notes about the East West Game, but since I am talking about the USC guys, did anybody else notice Kaluka Maiava ,the other OLB. He might be a 2nd day steal, and he is a smart player on the field.

I get frustrated by the TV coverage, but it is better than no coverage.

Am I the only one watching?

nunusguy
01-20-2009, 10:12 PM
Player College Height Weight Arm Hand
• Brian Cushing USC 6031 243 31 3/4 9 7/8
Notes: Impressive with a strong, muscular build.
• Clay Matthews USC 6030 246 32 9 3/8
Notes: Cut with good muscle structure.
• Rey Maualuga USC 6017 254 31 5/8 10
Notes: Disappointing with a small lower body.
http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/SeniorBowl/reports/Weigh-In.php
******************************************
draftcountdown.com always offers some interesting info from the Senior-Bowl weigh-in each year, including weigh-in stats for the players with a very brief narrative about each. For example, in comparing the LBs looks like would-be stud Maualuga is less impressive than his USC teammates ?

Roy P
01-20-2009, 10:48 PM
I get frustrated by the TV coverage, but it is better than no coverage.

Am I the only one watching?

Nope, and I too get frustrated. I've thought about sending the NFL Network an e-mail about it. The way I see it, people who are watching PRACTICE don't need all of the 2.0 explanations that Charles Davis and Mayock go through.

They spend so much time discussing the difficulties of projecting college Spread offense players to the NFL. I like Phil Savage, but they can show me players while I listen to him talk.

I want to see the players doing stuff and the announcers discussing what's going on on the field.

Personally, Robert Ayers looked like a 3-Down DE to me. Now that we have a DL coach who had Kelsay and Schobel, I wouldn't be surprised if we went after Orapko, Everette Brown, or Aaron Maybin in the 1st round. I also wonder if that means Raji goes down the Texans' draft board. On the other hand, the Bills did get Marcus Stroud. In my opinion, Darryl Richard and Sen'Derrick Marks probably move up the Texans' board.

As for Jennings, I saw Cushing light him up. If we didn't play the Colts twice a year, I would love to have Cushing as the SAM. I just wonder if he slips to the 2nd round like Posluszny.

William Moore has got to be hurting from that torn labrum. He's simply not playing like he did last season. In my mind, Keith Fitzhugh is my SS and Rashad Johnson is my FS. Chung reminds me of a smaller Aaron Rouse, now with the Packers.

Michael Oher showed he has to be more consistent against speed rushers. However, once he gets hands on a guy, it's over.

If Shawn Nelson is a 4th round pick, then he better be our 4th round pick.

Antoine Caldwell looked impressive to me again. I can't wait until game day to see what he does vs. Raji.

Mike Thomas has made the trip from the Shrine game and looks like Eddie Royal.

Alphonso Smith is small and may be a liability vs. the run, but covers like Sherwin Williams. Dominique Johnson is what I think is a Texans prototype CB.

I've never been a Rey Rey fan, and today didn't change my opinion.

nunusguy
01-21-2009, 08:16 AM
Now that we have a DL coach who had Kelsay and Schobel, I wouldn't be surprised if we went after Orapko, Everette Brown, or Aaron Maybin in the 1st round.


You're suggesting that Kollar has the juice with Smith/Kubiak to induce them
to trade-up to get his man in the first round ?

papabear
01-21-2009, 08:24 AM
I watched the re-cap last night. They were really hard on Rey-Rey. Said he showed up and looked and acted out of shape and that he was very rusty. Cushing on the other hand looks like the perfect SAM for us.


I have been really disappointed with Moore this year. If he drops a few rounds he might end up being a steal, but at this point it sounds like he would be just another run support safety without good ball skills. We've got plenty of those already.

nunusguy
01-21-2009, 09:50 AM
I have been really disappointed with Moore this year. If he drops a few rounds he might end up being a steal, but at this point it sounds like he would be just another run support safety without good ball skills. We've got plenty of those already.
He was terrible in the bowl game Mizzou played against Oregon (I think that's who they played ?). On the other hand, Mizzou LB Weatherspoon was sensational IMO. But I gather he's not a senior as I don't think he's been invited to this game ? Actually, if he's an underclassmen I dunno if he even
declared, but he put on quite a performance in the bowl game (unlike the safety, Moore).

papabear
01-21-2009, 10:41 AM
He was terrible in the bowl game Mizzou played against Oregon (I think that's who they played ?). On the other hand, Mizzou LB Weatherspoon was sensational IMO. But I gather he's not a senior as I don't think he's been invited to this game ? Actually, if he's an underclassmen I dunno if he even
declared, but he put on quite a performance in the bowl game (unlike the safety, Moore).

He also made me look stupid when they came to Austin too. I was sitting in the stands and telling everyone that we needed to look out for Moore...right before he gave up a big play, and looked very bad doing it. Every time he got beat I had to hear about it. I'm a Horns fan so it was great then, but he lost some of his luster too me that night.

TrickyTexan
01-21-2009, 02:09 PM
weatherspoon is returning to Mizzou. and is a real stud. Ray Ray should not be drafted early. His limitations were constantly indeminified by the rest of the USC defense including the other LBs.

Roy P
01-21-2009, 11:42 PM
You're suggesting that Kollar has the juice with Smith/Kubiak to induce them
to trade-up to get his man in the first round ?

You're suggesting that we would have to trade up.

I have to admit that the idea of Williams, Raji, Okoye, and whoever is really a nice thought.

Have I mentioned that I like Cody Brown from UConn today?

painekiller
01-22-2009, 12:11 AM
Have I mentioned that I like Cody Brown from UConn today?

Hey don't steal my guy.

What guy should we take if Oher, Raji, and Brown are all sitting there at 15?

sinnister
01-22-2009, 12:23 AM
Hey don't steal my guy.

What guy should we take if Oher, Raji, and Brown are all sitting there at 15?

Raji. He would be an incredible addition to the team

mussop
01-22-2009, 02:36 AM
Hey don't steal my guy.

What guy should we take if Oher, Raji, and Brown are all sitting there at 15?

Thats a tough one. It would be between Oher and Raji for me and alot would have to do with the interview. I would probably go Raji because I ahve them rated pretty even but our D needs Raji more than our O needs Oher.

Also I feel like there are some OL that will be available later in the draft that have lots of potential in our ZB scheme. I dont know if there is anyone in this draft that could help us more than Raji.

papabear
01-22-2009, 09:17 AM
I watched a little of practice yesterday and saw the one on one O-line vs D-line drills. Oher looked really good at times, and absolutely terrible at others. I think it was a G/C from Alabama that I noticed once or twice.

There were a couple fo defensive ends that I thought looked pretty good. A kid from Richmond and one from Hawaii. Both of them were quick off the ball and seemed like the could pull off the speed rush. No, I don't remember their names...does anyone else know anything about these guys? Maybe a later round pick who can be a pass rush specialist?

It's hard to tell much from this drill though.

painekiller
01-22-2009, 10:40 AM
I watched a little of practice yesterday and saw the one on one O-line vs D-line drills. Oher looked really good at times, and absolutely terrible at others. I think it was a G/C from Alabama that I noticed once or twice. That is Caldwell the OC they are working at both positiions, like all the OCs.

There were a couple fo defensive ends that I thought looked pretty good. A kid from Richmond and one from Hawaii. Both of them were quick off the ball and seemed like the could pull off the speed rush. No, I don't remember their names...does anyone else know anything about these guys? Maybe a later round pick who can be a pass rush specialist? 92 David Veikune (DL) Hawaii
95 Lawrence Sidbury (DL) Richmond
It's hard to tell much from this drill though.


Sidbury was here in Houston last week. Both of those guys will be specialist, or 3-4 guys

papabear
01-22-2009, 10:53 AM
Sidbury was here in Houston last week. Both of those guys will be specialist, or 3-4 guys

That's them....if I wasn't so lazy I would have looked them up myself. Don't know much about them, but the little I saw they looked like they would either be 3-4 guys or specialist DE's.

nunusguy
01-22-2009, 07:43 PM
Isn't English the guy that Mayoc at SB practice today predicted as potentially the next DeMarcus Ware ? And that was a nice plug he gave Andre Johnson the other day when discussing receivers in the WC offense ?
Dang I wish we could get the SB here in Houston, but ya gotta admire the little city of Mobile, AL for making a big success out of it.

nunusguy
01-22-2009, 07:53 PM
You're suggesting that we would have to trade up.

If that's a question, my reply is "yes". More & more teams are going 3-4 and these tweeners are becoming a more valuable commodity every year.
I wish we had never left the 3-4, but it's typical of Kubiak being inflexible and reluctant to confront change.

Roy P
01-22-2009, 10:20 PM
Hey don't steal my guy.

What guy should we take if Oher, Raji, and Brown are all sitting there at 15?

Your guy? Cody Brown is one of my guys. :D

If you are talking about Raji, then I'll concede that. I have been slow in coming around on him. When it comes to 1st round picks with guaranteed money, I get very picky. "Character" issues include things like arrests, suspensions, lack of conditioning, etc. Raji had some academic problems at BC that I'm not completely familiar with, but it is a flag. He also had some issues with his weight getting up over 360lbs. I'm sold that the talent is all there, but there are some questions about the mental and emotional.

I doubt we'll be faced with your hypothetical, but if it happened, I would go Raji because of how much he would improve Okoye, Mario, and DeMeco.

jppaul
01-23-2009, 01:50 AM
Blah...Blah...I am done with first round tackles FOR THIS TEAM, we have other needs besides D-line. B.J. Raji pulled an Okoye and jumped up the charts but after 5 firsts in 6 years give me a 2nd or 3rd rounder before we have 82 % of our cap tied into the d-line.

BTW that goes for DEs out there too. Orakpo, Maybin, Johnson, and Everette Brown, NOT INTERESTED. Are we any better than the Lions, for the redundant drafting, they drafted three WR in as many years. We drafted 5 first round Dlinemen in 6 years. Fing Ridicolous. I AM DONE WITH THAT CRAP.

nunusguy
01-23-2009, 06:39 AM
Blah...Blah...I am done with first round tackles FOR THIS TEAM, we have other needs besides D-line. B.J. Raji pulled an Okoye and jumped up the charts but after 5 firsts in 6 years give me a 2nd or 3rd rounder before we have 82 % of our cap tied into the d-line.


Fair point.
Lot of guys went gah-gah eyed over Okoyes Senior Bowl performance a couple years ago (apparently including Smith & Kubiak),
and 2 years out in the NFL he's been a definite flop for a #10 overall.

papabear
01-23-2009, 09:33 AM
Fair point.
Lot of guys went gah-gah eyed over Okoyes Senior Bowl performance a couple years ago (apparently including Smith & Kubiak),
and 2 years out in the NFL he's been a definite flop for a #10 overall.

I think that comment is ridiculous. Played well early in his rookie season before wearing down. Understandable for any rookie, not to mention one as young as him. He was a major disappointment this year without a doubt, but he was nicked up most of the year and was asked to play a lot of 2 gap type techniques. Not his strong suit. Will he ever be in same level at his position as AJ or Mario. I doubt it, but if your expectations for a first round pick are that he ends up being one of the top 3 or 4 guys at his position your going to be disappointed an awful lot. Hell even expecting multiple pro bowls from your first round pick is probably unrealistic.

RunninRaven
01-23-2009, 11:09 AM
I think it is silly to use past player performance to plan drafting strategy for THIS year. Whether or not Travis Johnson or Okoye worked out has nothing to do with how good a player Everette Brown will be. How good of a player Everette Brown IS will determine how good a player Everette Brown will be. You look at that and that alone to determine his value and draft from there.

Does it suck that we have put so much money into the D-line over the years and really only had Mario to show for it? Yeah, it does, but that doesn't mean you give up on improving a weakness of the team's through the draft. I mean, this particular regime is really only responsible for Mario and Okoye anyway. Mario I think we can agree has worked out rather nicely. Okoye looks to be a disappointment but his story is far from over. If the team sees a guy at 15 that they really believe can help this team on the D-line, I sure as hell hope they don't avoid taking him just because Travis Johnson didn't work out like we'd hoped.

nunusguy
01-23-2009, 12:31 PM
but if your expectations for a first round pick are that he ends up being one of the top 3 or 4 guys at his position your going to be disappointed an awful lot. Hell even expecting multiple pro bowls from your first round pick is probably unrealistic.
For openers he's not just a first round pick, he's a top 10 pick which by definition means he was drafted in the top third of the first round. And my criteria for success for a player drafted that high would include a level of performance within his first 2 years which indicates he's a standout, a "star" or atleast demononstrates the potential to rise to that level. And I'm not talking about flashing, about making a play or 2 in a game and then disappearing for a couple weeks. Gotta have more consistancy than that by the end of the second year. And so far I haven't seen that, maybe you have ?

Roy P
01-23-2009, 12:37 PM
Are we any better than the Lions, for the redundant drafting, they drafted three WR in as many years.

Going back to 2002 when they drafted Joey Harrington, they could have drafted John Henderson or Albert Haynesworth.

2003 they drafted hometown boy Charles Rogers instead of Andre Johnson. It's not that they shouldn't have drafted a WR, they just got the wrong one.

2004 they drafted Roy Williams because Rogers was not the answer. Imagine if they had had gone with Haynesworth and Andre Johnson the two previous years, they could have gotten Ben Roethlisberger in this draft.

2005 was the Mike Williams draft. This guy was considered a top pick the year prior, but simply was denied the opportunity to enter the draft. In attempt to surround the QB with weapons to make him successful, the investment in Williams was probably a reach considering his lack of another year playing. They could have gone after Senior Bowl phenom DeMarcus Ware, but that would have been silly, right? The best player at that draft slot was probably Derrick Johnson, but we also passed on him, opting to trade down.

2006 the Lions decided to forget about WRs and drafted Ernie Sims. Not a bad choice considering they passed on Derrick Johnson the year before. The option of Jay Cutler was there, but if they had drafted Big Ben in 2004, that wouldn't have been necessary. What about Combine stud Broderick Bunkley or Haloti Ngata to put next to Albert Haynesworth? I'm forgetting that Shaun Rogers was on the team, so how about CB Antonio Cromartie?

2007 Calvin Johnson was considered to be the BPA in the draft. Oakland went with Russell, so the Lions would have been thought of as crazy for not selecting the surest thing simply because they had made mistakes at the position before. Personally, I thought Adrian Peterson was the BPA, so I would have gone that route.

To re-cap the Lions 1st round draft picks could have looked like this:
2002 - DT Albert Haynesworth
2003 - WR Andre Johnson
2004 - QB Ben Roethlisberger
2005 - LB Derrick Johnson
2006 - CB Antonio Cromartie
2007 - RB Adrian Peterson

Gee, I bet Matt Millen wishes he had a time machine.

barrett
01-23-2009, 01:07 PM
Blah...Blah...I am done with first round tackles FOR THIS TEAM, we have other needs besides D-line. B.J. Raji pulled an Okoye and jumped up the charts but after 5 firsts in 6 years give me a 2nd or 3rd rounder before we have 82 % of our cap tied into the d-line.

BTW that goes for DEs out there too. Orakpo, Maybin, Johnson, and Everette Brown, NOT INTERESTED. Are we any better than the Lions, for the redundant drafting, they drafted three WR in as many years. We drafted 5 first round Dlinemen in 6 years. Fing Ridicolous. I AM DONE WITH THAT CRAP.

The Lions drafting WRs has nothing to do with our team or if we should take a DL. (1) We need to draft good players. (2) If it comes down to a choice between multiple good players we need to pick the one at a position of need. Neither of these items rules out DL by any means. You don't make 1st round selections based on cap money. If you get it right and pick the best player and he happens to play DL then you figure out the cap money later (cut weaver, TJ, or both).

papabear
01-23-2009, 01:30 PM
Blah...Blah...I am done with first round tackles FOR THIS TEAM, we have other needs besides D-line. B.J. Raji pulled an Okoye and jumped up the charts but after 5 firsts in 6 years give me a 2nd or 3rd rounder before we have 82 % of our cap tied into the d-line.

BTW that goes for DEs out there too. Orakpo, Maybin, Johnson, and Everette Brown, NOT INTERESTED. Are we any better than the Lions, for the redundant drafting, they drafted three WR in as many years. We drafted 5 first round Dlinemen in 6 years. Fing Ridicolous. I AM DONE WITH THAT CRAP.

Couple of things. WR is different than a defensive lineman for one main reasons. A WR will never make a bad team good. They can't do anything unless they have an offensive line that can protect the QB....and a QB to get them the ball. Same thing works on the other side of the line. We could throw out two pro bowl CB's, but if you can't get pressure on the QB or stop the run with some consistency you are still going to get picked apart at some point.

I will never have a problem picking a lineman on either side of the ball if the staff thinks they are worth it. It might not always be my favorite, and it's definitely not sexy, but the trenches are where game are won.

papabear
01-23-2009, 02:01 PM
For openers he's not just a first round pick, he's a top 10 pick which by definition means he was drafted in the top third of the first round. And my criteria for success for a player drafted that high would include a level of performance within his first 2 years which indicates he's a standout, a "star" or atleast demononstrates the potential to rise to that level. And I'm not talking about flashing, about making a play or 2 in a game and then disappearing for a couple weeks. Gotta have more consistancy than that by the end of the second year. And so far I haven't seen that, maybe you have ?


I would hope that any first round pick for us turns out to be a star, but the reality is that doesn't happen a majority of the time for any team. Think of how many top ten picks don't ever amount to much. We could argue over how much potential Okoye's demonstrated and probably never agree (although we're prob. not that far apart). I've just gotten to the point that I'm not that worried about where a guy was picked anymore. More draft picks fail than don't in the NFL. Picking at the top of the first round only slightly increases your chances of getting a star, if at all. I haven't done it, but I'm sure in the majority of drafts you could look at the first round (or top 10) and find far more guys who were only average, or worse, than standout players. It does matter when it comes to salary cap, but getting players who can contribute from later in the draft probably has as much if not more of an impact on making sure you're not towards the top of the round and forced to pay the high salary for a guy who's play likely won't match up.

I want all of our picks to be stars, but it's not going to happen. I would hope that we hit more than miss in the first round as well, but If all you get is a guy who is just an average starter...well you are probably still well ahead of the curve. Okoye did not have a good year at all. I doubt he'll ever be a star, but I still think he can play a big role on this team. He's still very young at a position that takes a while to grow into, so he might surprise us.

jppaul
01-23-2009, 02:40 PM
Couple of things. WR is different than a defensive lineman for one main reasons. A WR will never make a bad team good. They can't do anything unless they have an offensive line that can protect the QB....and a QB to get them the ball. Same thing works on the other side of the line. We could throw out two pro bowl CB's, but if you can't get pressure on the QB or stop the run with some consistency you are still going to get picked apart at some point.

I will never have a problem picking a lineman on either side of the ball if the staff thinks they are worth it. It might not always be my favorite, and it's definitely not sexy, but the trenches are where game are won.

On the flip side does focusing your best chance to get quality players into one specific need, repeatedly, to the neglect of other positions, make any more sense?

Similarly we our focusing a large portion of our cap into one area, again to the neglect of other positions.

Certainly, everybody is correct, we are not in fact the Lions. Thank you for clearing that up. All I was saying is that other teams follies may serve as educational, in the same way history is educational. A what not to do blue print, so to speak.

What teams does this saturation drafting, to the degree in which we have done, actually payoff. Didn't payoff for the Lions, didn't payoff for us, who did it pay off for? This is not a rhetorical question.

A dlineman can make a bad team better, but so can a WR, and on that i disagree with you. If you have a good Oline and a good QB, your passing offense could still suck if your recievers can't uncover. Call it something analagous to the David Carr effect, one that is applicable to WRs.

The Vikings had arguably the best d-line the year before last but becuase they had secondary problems they still couldn't stop anybody.

Why should we continue to dedicate our resources to a position, that we have already invested the majority of our best chances to get quality players, to the neglect of other positions.

That is my question.

barrett
01-23-2009, 03:12 PM
On the flip side does focusing your best chance to get quality players into one specific need, repeatedly, to the neglect of other positions, make any more sense?

Similarly we our focusing a large portion of our cap into one area, again to the neglect of other positions.

Certainly, everybody is correct, we are not in fact the Lions. Thank you for clearing that up. All I was saying is that other teams follies may serve as educational, in the same way history is educational. A what not to do blue print, so to speak.

What teams does this saturation drafting, to the degree in which we have done, actually payoff. Didn't payoff for the Lions, didn't payoff for us, who did it pay off for? This is not a rhetorical question.

A dlineman can make a bad team better, but so can a WR, and on that i disagree with you. If you have a good Oline and a good QB, your passing offense could still suck if your recievers can't uncover. Call it something analagous to the David Carr effect, one that is applicable to WRs.

The Vikings had arguably the best d-line the year before last but becuase they had secondary problems they still couldn't stop anybody.

Why should we continue to dedicate our resources to a position, that we have already invested the majority of our best chances to get quality players, to the neglect of other positions.
That is my question.

The amount of resources previously spent is not relevant to the argument. The relevant factor is do we need to improve on the DL right now. Clearly the answer is yes.

Otherwise you could say we have put fewer resources into WR than almost any position on the team the last 4 years so we should be looking to draft WRs. But this is not relevant. You draft on what you have and what you need, not on what you allocated. Your line of reasoning is the type that led Charlie Casserly to offer up Boselli as an excuse for why he never got a decent LT (We tried previously so we get to turn our attention elsewhere).

The DL is probably our worst or 2nd worst position group along with Secondary. Both have had first day draft picks and FA money thrown their way and we remain in need of upgrading in both areas far more so than at LB or anywhere on the offense. Hopefully a DT, FS, or DE is worthy of being drafted at 15 when we hit the clock.

papabear
01-23-2009, 04:12 PM
On the flip side does focusing your best chance to get quality players into one specific need, repeatedly, to the neglect of other positions, make any more sense?

Similarly we our focusing a large portion of our cap into one area, again to the neglect of other positions.

I have concerns about the cap implications as well. I'm not a Best player available or a need guy. It's always a mixture of both. I'm not saying we have to draft a DT, but to just make a decision that we are not taking a D-lineman in the first round before the draft is bad planning. The Texans didn't plan on drafting Okoye, but when their spot came up he was by far the highest rated guy on their board. You may not like the way it turned out, but at that time we got a guy that most people projected to go several slots higher than us and many considered it a steal. All you can do is balance need and BPA when your spot comes up and make a pick.


A dlineman can make a bad team better, but so can a WR, and on that i disagree with you. If you have a good Oline and a good QB, your passing offense could still suck if your recievers can't uncover. Call it something analagous to the David Carr effect, one that is applicable to WRs.

Well then we can just disagree. Although in my example I meant to imply that you didn't have a good O-line or QB. If you do, then yes you need to find that playmaker on the outside. If you don't you can sign all the WR's you want and it won't change a thing. My point was everything starts in the trenches, so if your going to spend a disproportionate amount of your resources on a single area....I would rather it be one of the lines.


Why should we continue to dedicate our resources to a position, that we have already invested the majority of our best chances to get quality players, to the neglect of other positions.

That is my question.

I'm not advocating dedicating resources to the position necessarily. I'm saying you have to take the hand your dealt on draft day. Not considering a position is just as dangerous as reaching for a position based on need IMO.


On top of that, guys taken from the middle-late first round don't eat up near as much space as some people might think. TJ's cap number this year was 1.9 mill. Next year it will be 2.2. Far from a bargain, but not a cap killer by any means from a pickk that was around the same point in the draft as we will have this year. So taking the same position in the first round every year hurts a lot worse if all of the picks are top 5 than if you are a little farther back.

barrett
01-23-2009, 05:47 PM
I have concerns about the cap implications as well. I'm not a Best player available or a need guy. It's always a mixture of both. I'm not saying we have to draft a DT, but to just make a decision that we are not taking a D-lineman in the first round before the draft is bad planning. The Texans didn't plan on drafting Okoye, but when their spot came up he was by far the highest rated guy on their board. You may not like the way it turned out, but at that time we got a guy that most people projected to go several slots higher than us and many considered it a steal. All you can do is balance need and BPA when your spot comes up and make a pick.




Well then we can just disagree. Although in my example I meant to imply that you didn't have a good O-line or QB. If you do, then yes you need to find that playmaker on the outside. If you don't you can sign all the WR's you want and it won't change a thing. My point was everything starts in the trenches, so if your going to spend a disproportionate amount of your resources on a single area....I would rather it be one of the lines.




I'm not advocating dedicating resources to the position necessarily. I'm saying you have to take the hand your dealt on draft day. Not considering a position is just as dangerous as reaching for a position based on need IMO.


On top of that, guys taken from the middle-late first round don't eat up near as much space as some people might think. TJ's cap number this year was 1.9 mill. Next year it will be 2.2. Far from a bargain, but not a cap killer by any means from a pickk that was around the same point in the draft as we will have this year. So taking the same position in the first round every year hurts a lot worse if all of the picks are top 5 than if you are a little farther back.

I agree it is a bad idea to go into a draft either locking on or eliminating positions. QB is an exception since only 1 plays, but everywhere else it is a balancing act between need and BPA.

sinnister
01-23-2009, 08:35 PM
The Vikings had arguably the best d-line the year before last but becuase they had secondary problems they still couldn't stop anybody.

That is my question.

I think the Giants had the best DL the year before the draft, and they certainly made up for a porous secondary.......and they won the Super Bowl

Roy P
01-23-2009, 10:07 PM
If that's a question, my reply is "yes". More & more teams are going 3-4 and these tweeners are becoming a more valuable commodity every year.
I wish we had never left the 3-4, but it's typical of Kubiak being inflexible and reluctant to confront change.

Yeah, those tweeners are so easy to come by. Most people around here long for the days of Jason Babin and Antwan Peek. :o

jppaul
01-24-2009, 02:09 AM
The amount of resources previously spent is not relevant to the argument. The relevant factor is do we need to improve on the DL right now. Clearly the answer is yes.

Otherwise you could say we have put fewer resources into WR than almost any position on the team the last 4 years so we should be looking to draft WRs. But this is not relevant. You draft on what you have and what you need, not on what you allocated. Your line of reasoning is the type that led Charlie Casserly to offer up Boselli as an excuse for why he never got a decent LT (We tried previously so we get to turn our attention elsewhere).


You are obviously a believer in the sunk cost rule. Since you took my argument out of context, lets do the same with yours:

That team has taken 15 straight first round d-linemen. DL is still the greatest need for that team. By your line of reasoning, keep taking the DL. Basically your line of reasoning is advocating for beating your head against a concrete wall.

Personally I'll pass, but maybe someone else is interested.

jppaul
01-24-2009, 02:11 AM
I think the Giants had the best DL the year before the draft, and they certainly made up for a porous secondary.......and they won the Super Bowl

Different types of DL. Giants was a penetrating DL and the Vikings was a brick wall.

nunusguy
01-24-2009, 07:35 AM
Yeah, those tweeners are so easy to come by. Most people around here long for the days of Jason Babin and Antwan Peek. :o

Seriously that raises an question that always puzzled me ? Why did Capers have so much trouble finding a really effective, stud pass-rush OLB for
his 3-4 ?
Watching this weeks Senior-Bowl practice, there were gobs of those prospects out there in the 235-255 lb range who had the kinda quicks off the edge to play the position. And that's not even counting all of the prospects that were absent like FSUs Brown, UTs Orakpo, and undercalssmen Maybin,
and many others. It just seems to me that the front 7 in the 3-4 is easier to populate than the 4-3, and of course that's always been an argument for the scheme.
BTW, did you see that Capers is taking his 3-4 to the NFC North ?
http://www.studyofsports.com/?p=1028
We all knew big things were in store for the Packers when Mike McCarthy summarily dismissed most of his defensive staff after a disappointing 6-10 season. What few were expecting was for McCarthy to stake his, and the team’s, future on the installation of the 3-4 scheme with the hiring of Dom Capers as Defensive Coordinator.

Most younger Packers fans, myself included, have only seen the 4-3 defense played in Green Bay. This sudden change, and McCarthy’s words on the matter, are somewhat surprising considering that McCarthy will no doubt be facing pressure to take the division back next season after the collapse of the defense and special teams this season.

barrett
01-24-2009, 09:52 AM
You are obviously a believer in the sunk cost rule. Since you took my argument out of context, lets do the same with yours:

That team has taken 15 straight first round d-linemen. DL is still the greatest need for that team. By your line of reasoning, keep taking the DL. Basically your line of reasoning is advocating for beating your head against a concrete wall.

Personally I'll pass, but maybe someone else is interested.

If you take 15 straight DL and at the end of it DL is still the worst position on your team, then DL would still clearly be in play for the 16th draft. You don't play draft slots and contracts. You evaluate how your team plays on the field and look where you need to get better.

If you look at actual play on the field, DL is one of our worst 2 position groups so it should be one of our priorities to upgrade (along with secondary). This does NOT mean we should draft a DL in the first round. It DOES mean we should not rule out drafting a DL in the first round. If it comes to our pick and a DL is the best player on our board, I would expect us to take him. If not I would expect to see a DE in the 2nd or 3rd round.

You said you had a serious question asking why we would take a DL again and this is a serious answer. Why don't you tell us a few positions that are more in need of an upgrade on our team and what direction we should be going in round 1. I'll accept safety, but I don't see anywhere else where we need help more.

TexanJedi
01-24-2009, 10:01 AM
According to NFLDraftCountdown, the Texans were spotted with Clay Matthews (LB USC), Mohamed Massaquoi (WR Georgia), and Coye Francies (CB/KR San Jose St.) at the Senior Bowl. Make of that what you will.

barrett
01-24-2009, 10:09 AM
On the flip side does focusing your best chance to get quality players into one specific need, repeatedly, to the neglect of other positions, make any more sense?

Similarly we our focusing a large portion of our cap into one area, again to the neglect of other positions.

Certainly, everybody is correct, we are not in fact the Lions. Thank you for clearing that up. All I was saying is that other teams follies may serve as educational, in the same way history is educational. A what not to do blue print, so to speak.

What teams does this saturation drafting, to the degree in which we have done, actually payoff. Didn't payoff for the Lions, didn't payoff for us, who did it pay off for? This is not a rhetorical question.

A dlineman can make a bad team better, but so can a WR, and on that i disagree with you. If you have a good Oline and a good QB, your passing offense could still suck if your recievers can't uncover. Call it something analagous to the David Carr effect, one that is applicable to WRs.

The Vikings had arguably the best d-line the year before last but becuase they had secondary problems they still couldn't stop anybody.

Why should we continue to dedicate our resources to a position, that we have already invested the majority of our best chances to get quality players, to the neglect of other positions.

That is my question.

Another serious question you have, so here is another serious answer. We have currently spent 3 first round picks in the last 4 years. Another 1st would be 4 in 5 years. We've also spent a 5th during that time (okam).

The patriots in the building of their defense from 2001-2004 (4 years) spent three 1st, one 2nd, and two 4th round picks on DL. And take into account that they play a 3-4 and are only filing 3 spots. So 6 players picked in 4 years to fill 4 spots. And it payed off big time. Half a decade later those guys still make up the top 4 spots on one of the best 3-4 lines in football.

So the problem is not with over-investing in one position. The problem is with doing a bad job of it (like we have on some of these picks). And I think that's where your argument comes from. The frustration that comes from these guys blowing picks is doubled when they keep blowing them in the same area. Well remember this staff has only had 2 drafts and they have only taken ONE DL in those 2 drafts. You can't expect them to ignore team needs based on who Casserly drafted in 2005.

jppaul
01-24-2009, 10:44 AM
If you take 15 straight DL and at the end of it DL is still the worst position on your team, then DL would still clearly be in play for the 16th draft. You don't play draft slots and contracts. You evaluate how your team plays on the field and look where you need to get better.



you don't? Seriously, Barrett? Give me a break. Another Hypo you have had the first overall selection 4 times and youve drafted all DL. Can you imagine the cap ramifications?

That is a bit extreme obviously, but you are lying to yourself if you think, that cap ramifications don't factor in.

Nconroe
01-24-2009, 11:04 AM
where to draft, I am also some combination of BPA tempered within the top few needs, so trade downs are often good.

our defense was overall 23rd last year, DL like 30th in least sacks and DBs like 28th in fewest turnover/interceptions. seems draft should focus on defense since offense was third ranked overall.

But these are young guys, some injuries, some player and coach turnover. And what was their ranking say last 5 games when seemed to have better defensive results.

So, maybe our DL picks are skilled guys who just need the right coaching and some maturity and health overall.

Anyways, lots of fun this time of the year speculating on how new coaches and draft will do this coming year.

I think if a Raji were there at 15 its a no brainer , draft him. if gone, not sure, see who's BPA.

So far, I don't like what I've seen of Will Moore for safety.

painekiller
01-24-2009, 11:46 AM
Fair point.
Lot of guys went gah-gah eyed over Okoyes Senior Bowl performance a couple years ago (apparently including Smith & Kubiak),
and 2 years out in the NFL he's been a definite flop for a #10 overall.

Okoye played hurt this season, high ankle sprain, so he played on one leg. Plus he was being used to as a read react DT, he is a shot the gap and find the ball type. So IMO judging him a bust is unfair.

As for Raji suspension, my understanding is the school mismanaged his credits and he became ineligible. While he was away, he found out how much he missed the game and rededicated himself. Had he played last year, we would have know of him.

painekiller
01-24-2009, 11:50 AM
If you take 15 straight DL and at the end of it DL is still the worst position on your team,


Then you have a problem with scouts, GM, the draft in general.

barrett
01-24-2009, 11:55 AM
Then you have a problem with scouts, GM, the draft in general.

agreed. That was my point. The problem is not "over-drafting" the DL. It's picking the wrong players. This has nothing to do with what position you take.

This current staff has picked one DL (okoye) and the jury is still out. This one pick does not disqualify them from attempting to fix an obvious problem area.

nunusguy
01-24-2009, 12:23 PM
According to NFLDraftCountdown, the Texans were spotted with Clay Matthews (LB USC), Mohamed Massaquoi (WR Georgia), and Coye Francies (CB/KR San Jose St.) at the Senior Bowl. Make of that what you will.
Veeery interesting. And good to know. Thanks for the info TexanJedi.
Matthews is no surprise, nor is a corner but the GA WR is intriguing ? I dunno, but you gotta think that the Texans are getting a bit uneasy about
Jacobey J., so guess that could explain their interest in a WR plus another player they are talking to who has experience as a KR (Jacobeys main job up to now) ?
BTW, just how is Clay Matthews related to Oilers/Titans HOFer Bruce ? I'm thinkin Bruce had a brother named Clay who played for the Browns, and if so that would probably make the USC LB Bruces nephew ?

sinnister
01-24-2009, 12:29 PM
Different types of DL. Giants was a penetrating DL and the Vikings was a brick wall.

I didn't say they weren't different, I said the Giants was better last year. Don't forget, Jared Allen was not on last years squad. Granted, they had 2 great DT's, so their inside was a brickwall, but the outside wasn't. The Giants were better across their front four with Tuck, Strahan, etc.

sinnister
01-24-2009, 12:35 PM
Veeery interesting. And good to know. Thanks for the info TexanJedi.
Matthews is no surprise, nor is a corner but the GA WR is intriguing ? I dunno, but you gotta think that the Texans are getting a bit uneasy about
Jacobey J., so guess that could explain their interest in a WR plus another player they are talking to who has experience as a KR (Jacobeys main job up to now) ?
BTW, just how is Clay Matthews related to Oilers/Titans HOFer Bruce ? I'm thinkin Bruce had a brother named Clay who played for the Browns, and if so that would probably make the USC LB Bruces nephew ?

Bruce and Clay Matthews were brothers. I was wondering about the connection myself. Both played at USC if I remember correctly.

sinnister
01-24-2009, 12:40 PM
you don't? Seriously, Barrett? Give me a break. Another Hypo you have had the first overall selection 4 times and youve drafted all DL. Can you imagine the cap ramifications?

That is a bit extreme obviously, but you are lying to yourself if you think, that cap ramifications don't factor in.


Cap ramifications do factor in, and there is little doubt that NFL teams have players that are taken with low draft picks where they are making up where their cap dollars are invested; however, OL and DL are the 2 most important positions on the team. They are the building blocks of a franchise, so justifying cap space for 8-9 slots is warranted. Also, in Barretts example, although extreme, let's be real. If you took 15 straight DL, not all 15 would be there tying up cap space. The same is going to be true of us. Anthony Weaver will be gone in the near future, and possibly Travis Johnson as well. So, the future of the DL, if Raji is drafted, won't be like having all these guys plus him. Granted, it is frustrating drafting all these guys and seeing little results. I still have high hopes for Okoye......

Roy P
01-24-2009, 12:45 PM
Seriously that raises an question that always puzzled me ? Why did Capers have so much trouble finding a really effective, stud pass-rush OLB for
his 3-4 ?
Watching this weeks Senior-Bowl practice, there were gobs of those prospects out there in the 235-255 lb range who had the kinda quicks off the edge to play the position.

Gobs of prospects don't always translate into legitimate NFL players. Mike Mayock is intrigued by English from N. Illinois. However, Robert Brewster of Ball State shut him down. Therefore, I am not impressed by the level of competetion that he faced.

While I like Cody Brown, I'm not 100% sure that he would be the next Joey Porter, much less DeMarcus Ware. There are more Matt Roths and Dan Bazuins in the draft than Shawne Merrimans. Sidbury and Veikune could be more like Ken Pettway and Travis Laboy than Shaun Phillips.

Trying to project a college DE into a standup OLB is pretty tricky business.

jppaul
01-24-2009, 12:49 PM
If you take 15 straight DL and at the end of it DL is still the worst position on your team, then DL would still clearly be in play for the 16th draft. You don't play draft slots and contracts. You evaluate how your team plays on the field and look where you need to get better.

If you look at actual play on the field, DL is one of our worst 2 position groups so it should be one of our priorities to upgrade (along with secondary). This does NOT mean we should draft a DL in the first round. It DOES mean we should not rule out drafting a DL in the first round. If it comes to our pick and a DL is the best player on our board, I would expect us to take him. If not I would expect to see a DE in the 2nd or 3rd round.

You said you had a serious question asking why we would take a DL again and this is a serious answer. Why don't you tell us a few positions that are more in need of an upgrade on our team and what direction we should be going in round 1. I'll accept safety, but I don't see anywhere else where we need help more.

I am not saying that DL is not a need rather that you can find talent other places than the first round of the draft, and that given our track record, we would be well advised to look elsewhere.

Which is why I have been advocating for Michael Johnson in the second.

Additionally, I think our biggest need this year transcends any one position. We need an impact player, someone that comes in and makes a big splash, and the easiest area to do that is LB, which is why Vilma, Willis and Demeco were all DROY.

The value in the draft would also lie in LB at 15. I like either Maluluaga or Cushing personally. Cushing could play strongside, with Malualaga you might have to make some moves.

Roy P
01-24-2009, 01:13 PM
The value in the draft would also lie in LB at 15. I like either Maluluaga or Cushing personally. Cushing could play strongside, with Malualaga you might have to make some moves.

Drafting a SAM in the 1st round is a mistake. Try to name a "difference maker" who plays that position in the NFL. I would like to add some talent at the position, but wouldn't use higher than a 3rd round pick for it.

Malualaga might add something to the defense. However, since we have Ryans, that makes even less sense than drafting a NT. Sure, you could move DeMeco to the WILL, but the GM just drafted Adibi, so why keep adding to the LB corps?

NBT
01-24-2009, 01:27 PM
Because it might just work! As you say it's hard to tell this time of year. All we can do is speculate. So speculate on.

painekiller
01-24-2009, 02:15 PM
Bruce and Clay Matthews were brothers. I was wondering about the connection myself. Both played at USC if I remember correctly.

Clay Matthews Sr played for 49ers.
His two sons Clay Jr. and Bruce both played at USC and then in the NFL.

Clay's son Clay III, was a walk on at USC and this season became a starter, and difference maker.

BTW Bruce has a son playing OC at Texas A&M.

painekiller
01-24-2009, 02:30 PM
Drafting a SAM in the 1st round is a mistake. Try to name a "difference maker" who plays that position in the NFL. I would like to add some talent at the position, but wouldn't use higher than a 3rd round pick for it.

Malualaga might add something to the defense. However, since we have Ryans, that makes even less sense than drafting a NT. Sure, you could move DeMeco to the WILL, but the GM just drafted Adibi, so why keep adding to the LB corps?

The evolution of positions in the NFL game is interesting, remember when the FB was the best runner in the backfield? Guys like Czonka, Harris. But the salary cap has changed everything, now the FB is a throwaway position, heck most cannot even run a pass route.

An interesting trend in college is the spread offense. And college defenses are getting smaller to deal with the spread. Now if 80% of the colleges go with the smaller quicker defense, how will that effect the drafting of defensive players? Also remember the 3-4 usually is about putting bigger guys on the field. Plus sized NTs, Plus sized DEs, plus sized Lbs. Where is the NFL going to find that player when the college go to speed defenses?

I am tired of our team following the trends, become a trail blazer, develop something unique. Make the other team react to you.

Why not bring back the 2 back sets where both guys carry the ball? Why not have two 3-gap DTs playing at the same time and both attaching the ball.

Roy P
01-24-2009, 05:12 PM
I am tired of our team following the trends, become a trail blazer, develop something unique. Make the other team react to you.

.

Here's my idea. I call it the 5-1-5. The anchor is like the 3-4 in that I put a 320lb bull right on the C. I have him flanked by two 3-Techniques that are required to fire into the backfield. On the left of the line is where I have a large pass rusher that would be like Mario or Julius Peppers. On the other side, I would have a tweener who would be similar to an OLB in that he would sometimes be asked to drop in coverage on a TE or a RB. The LB is a large fellow that can play in space. Perhaps a guy who had played SS at some point before becoming 245lbs. Having 5 DL in front of him, should allow him to attack sideline to sideline. Considering the lack of LBs on the field, I'll need strong tacklers in the secondary. Since they probably won't have elite quickness to play man all day, they have to have good zone awareness and ball skills to boot. My FS will need to roam Centerfield to pick up anything that gets through. I'll have one FS who is almost a CB while the SS is almost a WLB.

Mario Williams------Amobi Okoye------BJ Raji------Darryl Richard------Cody Brown

--------------------------------------Brian Cushing
Fred Bennett -----------------------------------------------------------------Keenan Lewis
-------------------- Keith Fitzhugh------------------------Antwaun Molden
---------------------------------------C.J. Spillman

I'm not advocating that we trade DeMeco, just an idea of what a new defense would look like that was built to play against passing offenses, while still being effective vs. the run.

Nconroe
01-24-2009, 07:37 PM
interesting ideas for changing up the defenses, I was thinking CB's should all have man-man skills, hard to find the speed and size combo, I realize that. I guess with our new coaches we will see some changes for sure this year. Seems Baltimore, a few others put 8 in the box to get a lot of their pressure, and then pressure comes so fast it works. Is Baltimore and Pittsburg and NYG big guys, seems that is working pretty well.

Roy P
01-24-2009, 11:14 PM
However, since we have Ryans, that makes even less sense than drafting a NT. Sure, you could move DeMeco to the WILL, but the GM just drafted Adibi, so why keep adding to the LB corps?

There was a little sarcasm in this part of my post. I was responding to a similar "logic" for not drafting a DL.

Perhaps I'm getting more pessimistic and cynical as I go through this every year. For some reason, I'm not exceptionally fired up about many of the prospects. All I am seeing is projects and not difference makers in this group.

Raji appeared pretty impressive during the week, but in the game today, he was pretty quiet. Peria Jerry had a pretty good showing, but I'm hesitant to wanting to draft another player like Okoye or Travis Johnson. The LBs in the game were marginal (including the USC group). TE Pettigrew was lackluster.

I'm trying to formulate a My Guys list and it might be short.

WR Crabtree
WR Maclin
LB Curry
NT Raji
DT Jerry

There's my 1st round picks. If all 5 are off the board, I'm trading down if possible.

jppaul
01-25-2009, 12:25 AM
There was a little sarcasm in this part of my post. I was responding to a similar "logic" for not drafting a DL.



Roy maybe i am a little slow but huh?

James
01-25-2009, 12:56 AM
No feel for the outside rushers that could be available? Maybin or Brown? Maclin, Raji, and Jerry could be available at our draft slot, likely only one of them, does that discount what a true outside rusher would add to the defense immediately? Brown is more ready than Maybin, except, perhaps, in your 5-1-5. Orakpo should be gone. I'm all for adding picks, but if one of these guys can come in and add 10 total sacks (as a whole for the defense) and 20 more pressures, is that not the difference between 8-8 and 11-5?

nunusguy
01-25-2009, 09:14 AM
Gobs of prospects don't always translate into legitimate NFL players. Mike Mayock is intrigued by English from N. Illinois. However, Robert Brewster of Ball State shut him down. Therefore, I am not impressed by the level of competetion that he faced.

While I like Cody Brown, I'm not 100% sure that he would be the next Joey Porter, much less DeMarcus Ware. There are more Matt Roths and Dan Bazuins in the draft than Shawne Merrimans. Sidbury and Veikune could be more like Ken Pettway and Travis Laboy than Shaun Phillips.

Trying to project a college DE into a standup OLB is pretty tricky business.

True. But IMO it's still tougher to find a guy coming out of college who has got what it takes to play DE in the 4-3 where you've got to be able to have the quicks to rush the QB from the edge and still be big & strong enough to defense the run.
BTW, about last nights game, I could have sworn I saw Raji on the field once or twice but I dunno if I heard his name a single time ? The guy looked great in practice this week but apparently left Mobile before last nights kickoff ?
Slatons former QB teammate pretty much guaranteed himself a spot in the Draft someplace in the first 2 rounds after last nights performance, though the verdict is still out about him playing QB.
I don't think Graham Harrell will be sending Mike Mayoc a Christmas card this year ? Mayoc really trashed his performance, not that it wasn't evident for the whole football world to see.
I thought Bomar was impressive despite fumbing in the EZ thereby letting the D recover and score a TD. He's got a strong arm and showed his athleticism
in a couple scrambles out of the pocket. I dunno, is he there for us in the third-round ?

TexanJedi
01-25-2009, 11:20 AM
I would avoid any QB at the Senior Bowl except for Pat White. He's got the arm and legs but is he big enough and can he read an NFL defense? Bomar is just not accurate enough for Kubiak's offense. Harrell looks like he has a weak arm and bad mechanics. The kid from Central Arkansas was in over his head.

At running back the best to me was Rashad Jennings for Liberty. He would make for a nice complement to Slaton. Andre Brown looks like a nice prospect but when he was dancing in hole. I had flashbacks of Jonathan Wells.

The best DT last night was Mitch King from Iowa, though Jerry had a couple of good plays. Mayock was high on Raji and seems to think he won't get past us at 15. The South interior linemen did a nice job against him and the rest of the North tackles.

In the secondary, Eugene Chung looked like the best safety. Moore from Mizzou did not look good. I want to think his senior season was an anomaly and he can be the player he was as a junior. Maybe he can and some team will get a steal, but that remains to be seen. I had Dunta flashbacks with the smaller safety from Western Michigan.

Maualuga and Cushing at times looked like beasts at linebacker.

The defensive end from Tennessee and Larry English looked like the best pass rushers.

Anyway, that's one man's opinion.

Roy P
01-25-2009, 04:23 PM
The best DT last night was Mitch King from Iowa, though Jerry had a couple of good plays. Mayock was high on Raji and seems to think he won't get past us at 15. The South interior linemen did a nice job against him and the rest of the North tackles.


Moore from Mizzou did not look good. I want to think his senior season was an anomaly and he can be the player he was as a junior. Maybe he can and some team will get a steal, but that remains to be seen.

After re-watching the game, Raji was getting doubled many times, leaving Mitch King to look like Warren Sapp. On the goal line when Mayock mentioned Raji "got handled" by Eric Wood, it was actually King who got run over by Tyronne Green that allowed Andre Brown to score easily.

Jeria Perry got good penetration and pressured the QB several times. He also batted a ball down. I'm wondering if he'd be an upgrade over TJ if Raji is off the board and if the Texans are through with TJs attitude.

Moore left the game with an ankle injury. I'm not a Dr. but this kid has played hurt his entire Senior year. If he goes to Indy and the Dr's go through his medical history, I wonder how far he will drop. Can he come back and play like his Junior year, or is he just going to be on IR during his pro career?

NBT
01-25-2009, 07:29 PM
Clay Matthews Sr played for 49ers.
His two sons Clay Jr. and Bruce both played at USC and then in the NFL.

Clay's son Clay III, was a walk on at USC and this season became a starter, and difference maker.

BTW Bruce has a son playing OC at Texas A&M.

Uhhh, didn't Clay Mathews play for Cleveland? I'm pretty sure he did. I remember he was pretty tough on our Oilers.

sinnister
01-25-2009, 08:43 PM
Uhhh, didn't Clay Mathews play for Cleveland? I'm pretty sure he did. I remember he was pretty tough on our Oilers.

The Clay Matthews that played for the Browns as a LB was the son of Clay Sr., who played for the 49ers.

jppaul
01-25-2009, 09:25 PM
After re-watching the game, Raji was getting doubled many times, leaving Mitch King to look like Warren Sapp. On the goal line when Mayock mentioned Raji "got handled" by Eric Wood, it was actually King who got run over by Tyronne Green that allowed Andre Brown to score easily.



I was watching that play and I saw a player with a BC helmet get shunted to the side. I wouldn't call it manhandled but it was an effective block. I think it was Raji but I would have to rewatch to make sure it wasn't Brace.

Roy P
01-25-2009, 10:26 PM
I was watching that play and I saw a player with a BC helmet get shunted to the side. I wouldn't call it manhandled but it was an effective block. I think it was Raji but I would have to rewatch to make sure it wasn't Brace.

Raji did get shunted to the side, but it was King who got pancaked allowing Brown to go into the endzone. Would it have been nice to see Raji shed his block and make the tackle? Yeah. However, if he had another 300lbs DT next to him, I'm not sure if the TD is scored.

There were several plays during the game that I watched closely to see. For example, when JP Wilson scored his TD on a draw play, the Middle LB (McKillop or Follett) got blocked after Raji and King parted ways leaving the middle open. I saw some hestitation in Marcus Freeman, Brian Cushing, Tyrone McKenzie, and others that I did not like along with some poor tackling. Clint Sintim really dissapointed me for somebody who is consistently ranked as a 1st round prospect.

The three guys who impressed me the most were Peria Jerry, Robert Ayers, and Cody Brown. If they were our 1st 3 picks of the draft, that would suit me just fine. The best tackler I saw this week was Scott McKillop in terms of wrapping up and taking on backs head on. Patrick Chung and Alphonso Smith moved up in terms of Secondary prospects.

jppaul
01-26-2009, 01:06 PM
Raji did get shunted to the side, but it was King who got pancaked allowing Brown to go into the endzone. Would it have been nice to see Raji shed his block and make the tackle? Yeah. However, if he had another 300lbs DT next to him, I'm not sure if the TD is scored.



Even if he did Raji still lost his battle, one that if he had won, might have resulted in a stop. King is more of a DT who plays in non-short yardage situations. He is only 265, and is going to get manhandled everytime in those situations.

On another note, apart from that fumble, I was really impressed with Peerman, and am interested in him as a complement to Slaton.

TexanJedi
01-26-2009, 01:25 PM
On another note, apart from that fumble, I was really impressed with Peerman, and am interested in him as a complement to Slaton.

Yes, Cedric Peerman has me interested as well. I looked at his college stats and I can't see where he fumbled, ever. He's only listed at 208 but he seemed bigger to me. Whereas Andre Brown is listed at more than 225 but does not run like a big back, if that makes sense.

Lance Zierlein has a chat on his blog with Rob Rang from NFL Draft Scout, and they were discussing the possiblity of Brian Cushing at OLB on most downs and dropping down to pass rushing end on obvious passing situations. I thought that sounded interesting.

Roy P
01-26-2009, 04:41 PM
Lance Zierlein has a chat on his blog with Rob Rang from NFL Draft Scout, and they were discussing the possiblity of Brian Cushing at OLB on most downs and dropping down to pass rushing end on obvious passing situations. I thought that sounded interesting.

I guess LZ has been listening to me for the past 4 years. That's exactly what I want for a SAM. I thought the Texans had bought into the idea when we signed Chaun Thompson. It's why I'm pimpin Cody Brown of UConn this year and Cliff Avril last year and Tim Shaw the year before and Chris Gocong before that.

painekiller
01-26-2009, 09:31 PM
Uhhh, didn't Clay Mathews play for Cleveland? I'm pretty sure he did. I remember he was pretty tough on our Oilers.

I assumed everyone knew who Bruce and Clay Jr. played for in the NFL. The LB at UCS right now is Clay III. I am sorry for any confusion.

jppaul
01-26-2009, 10:59 PM
I guess LZ has been listening to me for the past 4 years. That's exactly what I want for a SAM. I thought the Texans had bought into the idea when we signed Chaun Thompson. It's why I'm pimpin Cody Brown of UConn this year and Cliff Avril last year and Tim Shaw the year before and Chris Gocong before that.

Didn't you just say that a SAM was a waste of a first round draft pick

barrett
01-27-2009, 12:33 AM
Didn't you just say that a SAM was a waste of a first round draft pick

a sam is a waste because they are 2 down players who basically just stick their nose in against the run, which makes it an easy role to fill.

If your SAM puts a hand on the ground and rushes the QB he has a 3rd down value and it changes things quite a bit. But this is a far different skill than blitzing. It is actually lining up at end. Very rarely does a guy do both of these things, but if he is good at SAM and great at rushing the QB, he may be worth a 1st.

nunusguy
01-27-2009, 07:03 AM
How about Connor Barwin, the 2-way guy from the U of Cinci ?
Let him be depth as one of our 3-4 TEs (Kubiak hordes TEs), and be in the game on defense to rush the QB. One guy who covers 2 rosters slots, the ultimate utility player. And with that name he could also be a partner in McNairs/the-Texans law firm. So then really three for the price of one ?

jppaul
01-27-2009, 06:48 PM
a sam is a waste because they are 2 down players who basically just stick their nose in against the run, which makes it an easy role to fill.

If your SAM puts a hand on the ground and rushes the QB he has a 3rd down value and it changes things quite a bit. But this is a far different skill than blitzing. It is actually lining up at end. Very rarely does a guy do both of these things, but if he is good at SAM and great at rushing the QB, he may be worth a 1st.

Lets say you have an SLB who can cover Dallas Clark or Antonio Gates, are they a waste? I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong about an SLB being a waste. As for SLB as a difference maker, I disagree, they may not be flashy in the way that a MLB is, but if you have ever watched the Texans get torched by a TE, then you can't possibly say that they are not impact players.

Is a CB who blankets recievers but doesn't get a whole lot of picks not an impact player? Impact player encompasses more than flashy stats or topical glory.

I am still hoping we draft Cushing btw, i recognize that that is probably not the course we choose, but there it is.

Nconroe
01-27-2009, 07:51 PM
Cushing sounds pretty good. A little injury history. Most currently project him around 23 in draft. Do we take at 15 or hope for a trade down to the likely value position. Sounds like he is a good tackler as well as covers the TE well, and some good size. If we think DL is covered might be good.

Roy P
01-27-2009, 08:27 PM
Didn't you just say that a SAM was a waste of a first round draft pick

I think we can get a SAM in the 3rd round. The Texans have not utilized the SAM position they way I have proposed though. I'm not quite sure they are looking for a guy to put his hand on the ground on 3rd down, nor is it easy to find a guy who can cover Dallas Clark man to man. It's my opinion that the SAM and the SS could double cover the TE to make up for single coverage by a guy who isn't a CB. Also, if a guy is a threat to rush the passer, the TE may be less likely to go out on a pass pattern and be asked to stay in to protect the QB. A guy like Cody Brown is accustomed to fighting OTs at the line of scrimmage and getting pressure on the QB, so putting him up against a TE seems like an advantage to me. That's why I wouldn't be as inclined to draft Cushing in the 1st round. In fact, I'd only draft Cushing to play the MIKE and then use him like Urlacher and have him be the guy playing the deep 3rd when we went to a Cover-2 Scheme. That is contingent upon his Combine numbers though.

barrett
01-27-2009, 10:36 PM
Lets say you have an SLB who can cover Dallas Clark or Antonio Gates, are they a waste? I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong about an SLB being a waste. As for SLB as a difference maker, I disagree, they may not be flashy in the way that a MLB is, but if you have ever watched the Texans get torched by a TE, then you can't possibly say that they are not impact players.

Is a CB who blankets recievers but doesn't get a whole lot of picks not an impact player? Impact player encompasses more than flashy stats or topical glory.

I am still hoping we draft Cushing btw, i recognize that that is probably not the course we choose, but there it is.

No they are not a waste. They are a WLB or a MLB because nobody puts that guy in that position, they put him where he can make plays.

jppaul
01-28-2009, 03:12 PM
No they are not a waste. They are a WLB or a MLB because nobody puts that guy in that position, they put him where he can make plays.

Is covering Antonio Gates not making a play?

barrett
01-28-2009, 04:42 PM
Is covering Antonio Gates not making a play?

That is my point. If a guy is capable of covering Antonio Gates, then he is not playing SLB.

jppaul
01-28-2009, 07:31 PM
But if he is at WLB then he is not covering Gates.

barrett
01-28-2009, 10:37 PM
Well honestly no LB is covering Gates or the top TEs in man coverage, or at least not well. Those guys are covered by safeties on almost every pass route.

But either way my point is that (1) guys who can cover Antonio Gates 1 on 1 are not playing SLB and (2) NFL teams don't ask their SLB to man up on a TE like gates so its irrelevant. In a 4-3 about %90 of the SLB's job is to fill the hole and tackle in the run game. And they all exit the game in passing situations, and most play less than the nickel corner. They are part time players. It is not a speed position or one that requires huge talent. For the most part it is veteran guys who don't get paid much. Bentley played the role for us very well.

jppaul
01-29-2009, 12:53 PM
Well honestly no LB is covering Gates or the top TEs in man coverage, or at least not well. Those guys are covered by safeties on almost every pass route.

But either way my point is that (1) guys who can cover Antonio Gates 1 on 1 are not playing SLB and (2) NFL teams don't ask their SLB to man up on a TE like gates so its irrelevant. In a 4-3 about %90 of the SLB's job is to fill the hole and tackle in the run game. And they all exit the game in passing situations, and most play less than the nickel corner. They are part time players. It is not a speed position or one that requires huge talent. For the most part it is veteran guys who don't get paid much. Bentley played the role for us very well.

Barrett, I understand your point, I just disagree with you. A SLB who can cover Gates and does cover Gates allows the safety to stay deep, which is an asset because the CHargers run Gates in the seams and the intermediate middle to get the remaining safety to bite so that they can go over the top to Jackson. Having a SLB who can cover him would not be a waste of resources. Sometimes the Broncos use arguably the top corner in the game to cover Gates, that is not a waste of resources, and the question becomes relevant.

barrett
01-29-2009, 02:36 PM
Barrett, I understand your point, I just disagree with you. A SLB who can cover Gates and does cover Gates allows the safety to stay deep, which is an asset because the CHargers run Gates in the seams and the intermediate middle to get the remaining safety to bite so that they can go over the top to Jackson. Having a SLB who can cover him would not be a waste of resources. Sometimes the Broncos use arguably the top corner in the game to cover Gates, that is not a waste of resources, and the question becomes relevant.

You're fooling yourself if you think any of the SLB prospects can cover Gates. I'd be suprised if any of the safety prospects can cover the top TEs in the NFL.

As for the SLB position and it's relevance in the NFL, I give you 3 names...Chris Gocong, Marcus Washington, and Danny Clark. Do you know who they are? Don't feel bad if you don't. Nobody does. But they are the starting SLBs on the best 4-3 defenses in the NFL.

jppaul
01-29-2009, 03:26 PM
You're fooling yourself if you think any of the SLB prospects can cover Gates. I'd be suprised if any of the safety prospects can cover the top TEs in the NFL.

As for the SLB position and it's relevance in the NFL, I give you 3 names...Chris Gocong, Marcus Washington, and Danny Clark. Do you know who they are? Don't feel bad if you don't. Nobody does. But they are the starting SLBs on the best 4-3 defenses in the NFL.

Chris Gocong played for the eagles last time I checked. Marcus Washington was another good linebacker that the Colts lost in free agency, and now plays for the Redskins. He has lost a step though and is not nearly as efficient as he used to be. Danny Clark played Strongside for us a couple years ago, I think we got him from the Raiders, although I am not sure where he ended up, we let him depart via free agency.

jppaul
01-29-2009, 03:56 PM
You're fooling yourself if you think any of the SLB prospects can cover Gates. I'd be suprised if any of the safety prospects can cover the top TEs in the NFL.

As for the SLB position and it's relevance in the NFL, I give you 3 names...Chris Gocong, Marcus Washington, and Danny Clark. Do you know who they are? Don't feel bad if you don't. Nobody does. But they are the starting SLBs on the best 4-3 defenses in the NFL.

Lets try a name: D.J. Williams? You probably should feel bad if you don't recognize that one?

Granted, there is not alot of name recognition with SLB but they certainly serve an important role. That being noted I am alright with Drafting Cushing and putting him on the WLB. Adibi is a good prospect but I have questions about his ability to stay healthy.

I would take him in the first, Michael Johnson or Paul Kruger in the second, Rashad Johnson or Patrick Chung in the third, Myron Pryor or Jarron Gilbert in the fourth, Pat White or Rhett Bhomar in the fifth, Graham Cano in the 6th, Deandre Wright in the 7th.

Then the LB core would look like:

barrett
01-29-2009, 04:33 PM
Lets try a name: D.J. Williams? You probably should feel bad if you don't recognize that one?

Granted, there is not alot of name recognition with SLB but they certainly serve an important role. That being noted I am alright with Drafting Cushing and putting him on the WLB. Adibi is a good prospect but I have questions about his ability to stay healthy.

I would take him in the first, Michael Johnson or Paul Kruger in the second, Rashad Johnson or Patrick Chung in the third, Myron Pryor or Jarron Gilbert in the fourth, Pat White or Rhett Bhomar in the fifth, Graham Cano in the 6th, Deandre Wright in the 7th.

Then the LB core would look like:

And do you know what the Broncos got for the 1st round pick they invested in Williams? All of 6.5 sacks and 2 INTs in 5 years. Now he plays solid, but that is just my point. SLB is a place to put a solid guy. If you put an athlete there, you are wasting them. They simply don't get a chance to make plays.

Now if you want Cushing in particular and think he can play the WLB, then I won't argue with you. I don't know enough about him to say, but if he can, then I could see picking him in the right circumstance. The WLB is still not a huge impact position in the 4-3, but they are 3 down players who have chances to make plays, so if a guy is a great enough WLB, they could have a 1st round impact. I would still go another direction unless BPA clearly indicated he was head and shoulders above the available DL and FS prospects, but a great WLB could be a big plus for us.

But a "great" SLB is just not worth a 1st round pick if you plan to play him at SLB.

jppaul
01-29-2009, 08:50 PM
And do you know what the Broncos got for the 1st round pick they invested in Williams? All of 6.5 sacks and 2 INTs in 5 years. Now he plays solid, but that is just my point. SLB is a place to put a solid guy. If you put an athlete there, you are wasting them. They simply don't get a chance to make plays.

Now if you want Cushing in particular and think he can play the WLB, then I won't argue with you. I don't know enough about him to say, but if he can, then I could see picking him in the right circumstance. The WLB is still not a huge impact position in the 4-3, but they are 3 down players who have chances to make plays, so if a guy is a great enough WLB, they could have a 1st round impact. I would still go another direction unless BPA clearly indicated he was head and shoulders above the available DL and FS prospects, but a great WLB could be a big plus for us.

But a "great" SLB is just not worth a 1st round pick if you plan to play him at SLB.

Again we will disagree, and I will agree to disagree in order to stop wasting other readers time, with our disagreement.

On another note, some of the WLB's who do make an impact inlcude: Derrick Brooks, Lance Briggs, A.J. Hawk, Keith Bulluck, etc.

None of the FS prospects seem to be worth the #15 pick, and although several of the D-line prospects are worth that pick, I would go a different direction.

barrett
01-29-2009, 09:02 PM
Again we will disagree, and I will agree to disagree in order to stop wasting other readers time, with our disagreement.

On another note, some of the WLB's who do make an impact inlcude: Derrick Brooks, Lance Briggs, A.J. Hawk, Keith Bulluck, etc.

None of the FS prospects seem to be worth the #15 pick, and although several of the D-line prospects are worth that pick, I would go a different direction.

I agree with all of that and hope we can trade down.

As for WLBs I agreed with you. I said that although it is not a big impact position, the guys who play it great are impact players.

As for wasting other reader's time, its the offseason and I think we may just be talking to each other.

Roy P
01-29-2009, 10:13 PM
As for wasting other reader's time, its the offseason and I think we may just be talking to each other.

Nah, it's kind of like watching tennis.

As for trading down, I am still hopeful for big time player to come to us. Last year it was Branden Albert who was not suppose to last. In 2005 it was Derrick Johnson. In 04 there was D.J. Williams and Will Smith. Perhaps this year Raji will still be on the board or maybe Everette Brown. It always seems as if getting a 1st round RB is a pretty decent choice in this area, maybe LeSean McCoy, Knowshon Moreno, or Donald Brown. My personal favorite is Aaron Curry, but that's just me. For the record, I'd play him at the WILL.

jppaul
01-31-2009, 02:42 PM
I agree with all of that and hope we can trade down.

As for WLBs I agreed with you. I said that although it is not a big impact position, the guys who play it great are impact players.

As for wasting other reader's time, its the offseason and I think we may just be talking to each other.

Yeah but is there anything more annoying than two people standing around beating a dead horse for weeks?

jppaul
01-31-2009, 02:44 PM
Nah, it's kind of like watching tennis.

As for trading down, I am still hopeful for big time player to come to us. Last year it was Branden Albert who was not suppose to last. In 2005 it was Derrick Johnson. In 04 there was D.J. Williams and Will Smith. Perhaps this year Raji will still be on the board or maybe Everette Brown. It always seems as if getting a 1st round RB is a pretty decent choice in this area, maybe LeSean McCoy, Knowshon Moreno, or Donald Brown. My personal favorite is Aaron Curry, but that's just me. For the record, I'd play him at the WILL.

Man every mock I have seen and every draft ranking board has him somewhere around the top 5. I would be happy to play him at will.

What about drafting Malualaga and moving DRyan over to Will, where he can make more impact plays and could possibly stay healthy for an entire season.

Roy P
01-31-2009, 06:01 PM
What about drafting Malualaga and moving DRyan over to Will, where he can make more impact plays and could possibly stay healthy for an entire season.

Talk about kicking a dead horse, there has been much discussion on moving Ryans to the WILL after drafting (insert favorite MLB here) to take on larger OL and attacking the RB.

I will say once again that my perspective is that DeMeco is most productive at the MLB position and does not have the athleticism to chase plays from the WLB. The best way to keep our MIKE healthy would be to improve the DL in front of him. Maybe Jeff Zgonina will retire and just start coaching. Maybe Frank Okam will get a fire lit under his ass by Coach Kollar or simply go to Law School. I wonder if we could trade Travis Johnson or at least get him to play better than DelJuan Robinson. Okoye had a whopping 24 tackles.

Just as a painful reminder, does anybody remember when the Texans traded for WR Eric Moulds? I was upset that we gave away a 4th round pick, that same pick was utilized on a guy that I liked from LSU DT Kyle Williams. Well coach Kollar took a 4th round effort guy and had him post 53, 41, and 55 tackles the last 3 seasons. I'm hopeful we'll get something like that from our DTs. The guy next to him, Marcus Stroud, had 45 tackles.

If I compare them to the Eagles, Brodrick Bunkley had 47 tackles and Mike Patterson slipped down to 42 tackles after posting 67 the year before.

Anyway, we can talk about how much money we've already spent on the DL and if it is a good idea to draft a player like Jeria Perry, BJ Raji, Sen'Derrick Marks, etc. However, until the DL starts performing, it won't matter who we have in the LB corps or the Secondary.

gunslinger57
01-31-2009, 09:43 PM
For our draftniks I wanted to ask for a scouting report.

While channel surfing I ran into the callege football skills event on ESPN, or whatever it's called, and saw the receivers and Ramses Barden. I know our record with small school WRs isn't good, and I'm not advocating taking an offensive player in the first 3 or 4 rounds unless someone inexplicably falls, but what's the story on him, and where does he project in the draft? I know WR isn't a "need" position for the Texans, but a 6'6", 230 lb. target opposite AJ is an intriguing notion.

Roy P
01-31-2009, 11:09 PM
For our draftniks I wanted to ask for a scouting report.

While channel surfing I ran into the callege football skills event on ESPN, or whatever it's called, and saw the receivers and Ramses Barden.

I know WR isn't a "need" position for the Texans, but a 6'6", 230 lb. target opposite AJ is an intriguing notion.

Let me give you some names....
Brian Poli-Dixon - 6'5" 210lb 4.48 UCLA 2002
Tyrone Calico - 6'4" 223lbs 4.34 Middle Tenn State 2003
Reggie Williams - 6'4" 225lbs 4.62 Washington 2004
Mike Williams - 6'5" 229lbs 4.56 USC 2005
Maurice Stovall - 6'5" 217lbs 4.57 Notre Dame 2006

Don't get too enamored with the height is the point I'm making. A WR needs to be able to get separation and catch the ball. Ramses Barden can't really do either. He was horrid during the Senior Bowl week practices. The only time I saw him make a catch was when he went up against SS prospects who aren't really going to be covering a WR man-to-man. Barden is suspected to go in the 4th round. We'd be better off getting short, but effective, Mike Thomas from Arizona to play the slot WR and return specialist.

gunslinger57
02-01-2009, 12:09 AM
Yeah I know I know. Just the thought of having a huge target opposite AJ and Walters killing people underneath in 3 WR sets makes me feel funny.