Harrison and Barber

[idymoe]

I hope you guys will indulge me here by giving me your observations and opinions on these two. I can't seem to catch Barber on screen, except on special teams. I usually record the games and watch them later, but couldn't bring myself to watch much of the Oakland game. I think I saw where Barber had 5 tackles. Were those all special teams or was he in base defense some.

The times I've noticed Harrison, I've been very underwhelmed. Has anyone seen anything to be optimistic about either one of these two in the future?

[Big Texas]

I cant say that I have seen much of either outside special teams, but what I have seen in our base defense left much to be desired. They looked just as bad as the next man. Constantly out of position. I cant recall which game but Harrison was beat for a TD on one instance.

[Mike]

I have not seen enough of Barber as a safety to have an impression. Harrison seems like "just a guy."

I do like Eugene Wilson. He has a nose for the ball, and we need to find another safety to play alongside him.

[Keith]

Yes, Harrison has had me underwhelmed since I first saw him in camp last year. I thought the team cut the better Brandon at safety (Mitchell).

fyi, it was Harrison on Higgins' punt return TD that I saw as the last man out of position and chasing him fruitlessly into the endzone.

As for Barber, I haven't seen enough to form an opinion. He caught my eye on special teams a few times, but that's been about it.

[Bigtinylittle]

I can't help but wonder whether Harrison pulled a fast one on the Texans with that graduation thing. It essentially set him back a whole year. I have to wonder whether the Texans would have drafted him if they had known about it.

Most low round draft picks don't stick in the league, so it's not like it is a big loss if we cut him next year. In most cases, I think there are cheap free agents who can play as well or better than most low rounders. Look around the Texan's roster and you will find several free agents who are helping us more than Harrison. That's one reason why I'm glad the Texans have a lot of cap space now. It should let us take lots of chances to bring in guys like Colvin, Chris Brown, etc and just cut them with minimal loss if they don't work out. Sifting through the rejects until you find a Briesel or a Deljuan Robinson.

[painekiller]

I can't help but wonder whether Harrison pulled a fast one on the Texans with that graduation thing. It essentially set him back a whole year. I have to wonder whether the Texans would have drafted him if they had known about it.

Most low round draft picks don't stick in the league, so it's not like it is a big loss if we cut him next year. In most cases, I think there are cheap free agents who can play as well or better than most low rounders. Look around the Texan's roster and you will find several free agents who are helping us more than Harrison. That's one reason why I'm glad the Texans have a lot of cap space now. It should let us take lots of chances to bring in guys like Colvin, Chris Brown, etc and just cut them with minimal loss if they don't work out. Sifting through the rejects until you find a Briesel or a Deljuan Robinson.


Harrison had no choice but to miss that camp time, it is a league rule. Stanford is one of the few school that ends it regular spring term so late, and yes every team in the league knows that the player taken from that school will not be available until the college term is over.

[Bigtinylittle]

Well, that makes it even a more curious pick, to me anyway. And at this point, it is looking like one of their weakest picks.

[Keith]

And at this point, it is looking like one of their weakest picks.For whatever the reason, safety seems to be the one position that this team's scouts - college and pro - have the hardest time evaluating. I can only figure they lucked into whatever they're getting out of Eugene Wilson this year.

I think to all of us here it seems pretty obvious that a centerfielder-type free safety is desperately needed long-term, yet they keep trying to field two guys at a time who look like mediocre strong safeties instead.

The good news is that the Texans could trade down in the first round from where they're at and still draft one of the highest regarded safeties available next April. If they went LB instead and took a FS in round two, then I'd be satisfied with that, too.

[painekiller]

If they went LB instead and took a FS in round two, then I'd be satisfied with that, too.

Everytime I try that in a mock I come up empty in round two. I only see two guys that should be instant starters, they are Taylor Mays and William Moore, after that it's a dice role IMO.

Hey there is a sleeper FS, a junior that might consider coming out Klint Kubiak, Colorado St. what do you guys think? :D

[NBT]

Of course we don't yet know who the junior eligibles, and 3rd year red shirt sophomores are, that are going to declare, but Mays or Moore would suit me fine in the first round. I would love to see us pull another trade down for extra picks trick, but that doesn't come along every year.

Harrison hasn't excited me either, but C.C. Brown didn't do much until his third year, so........ The Barber kid just hasn't had enough reps to register one way or another. I agree that Wilson has looked the best at FS. We've had some injuries in the safeties this year, so this has to be an area we have to strengthen for next year.

[NBT]

Happy to say, Barber had a good game yesterday against Chicago.

[idymoe]

That was a very nice play to break up the TD to Olsen. Also, actually getting a sack on a blitz was nice.

[nero THE zero]

That was a very nice play to break up the TD to Olsen. Also, actually getting a sack on a blitz was nice.

Yea, I thought Orton's head was detached from his body for a second there.

[Arky]

A couple of days ago, Kubes was asked on the radio who his "unexpected contributors" were this year. On the offensive side, he named Slaton. On the defensive side, he named Barber....

This makes me think the Texans may not go after a safety in the early rounds of the draft or possibly, not at all....

[cadams]

I would love to see us pull another trade down for extra picks trick, but that doesn't come along every year.

I agree with this. Fortunately, I think sitting at the 15 pick could be a great spot for trading down. That is right in that area where a top 10 type guy could slip to due to a run on a certain position which could cause a team in the 20-25 range to be willing to part with their #1 and a 3rd rounder to get someone like that. Pretty much the situation the Texans fell into at #17 last year.

[NBT]

A couple of days ago, Kubes was asked on the radio who his "unexpected contributors" were this year. On the offensive side, he named Slaton. On the defensive side, he named Barber....

This makes me think the Texans may not go after a safety in the early rounds of the draft or possibly, not at all....

I now agree Arky, but with Barber not really able to get on the field until the last game, let's not get premature here. Maybe not the first pick now, but I still think both safeties are still a chronic need.

[Arky]

I now agree Arky, but with Barber not really able to get on the field until the last game, let's not get premature here. Maybe not the first pick now, but I still think both safeties are still a chronic need.

With all due respect, I don't share the chronic need. Barber had 5 tackles in the Oakland game and then the big sack in the Bears game. He had numerous other games with a tackle or two but I think mostly from special teams play. The staff apparently really likes him so I see him getting more time - possibly starting next year. I'm speculating that they won't pick a safety early due to his and Eugene Wilson's good play. Ferguson, who did OK, might be back. Maybe if a BPA is a safety, they might ... but who knows?.... We'll see.....

[barrett]

Barber's limited emergence should not change things at all. He is simply another SS for us. He may slightly upgrade Brown/earl/harrison/fill-in-the-blank, but we still need a safety with Range and ball skills. Wilson played OK and I was a big fan of his during the season. I think he was one of the big keys to turning everything around, but if anything his impact should show how much we need this kind of player, not convince anyone we have the hole filled with an over-achieving journeyman nearing the end of his career.

[Arky]

Barber's limited emergence should not change things at all. He is simply another SS for us. He may slightly upgrade Brown/earl/harrison/fill-in-the-blank, but we still need a safety with Range and ball skills. Wilson played OK and I was a big fan of his during the season. I think he was one of the big keys to turning everything around, but if anything his impact should show how much we need this kind of player, not convince anyone we have the hole filled with an over-achieving journeyman nearing the end of his career.

He's 28. That's "experienced". I'd say he (Wilson) has a couple of more years of over-achieving left in him. OTOH, the others ages are:

Barber 22
Harrison 24
CC Brown 25
Demps 29
Ferguson 34

I'd say 2 to 3 of those are gone next year.....

[Bigtinylittle]

I agree with Arky on this one. I would not call 28 over the hill at any position with the possible exception of running back.

I believe the thinking of Kubiak differs from most fans when it comes to FS. I think the FS safety is one of the most exposed positions on the defense, so most fans really notice it, especially on long pass plays. What they don't notice is any deficiences he might have against the run. Most ball-hawking safeties are probably not also going to be great against the run, and I don't think Kubes is looking for one of those.

With our first round pick we might be able to get a ball hawking FS who also plays the run well, but if what we already have is servicable, then I think Kubiak uses that pick for some other position which more desperately needs shoring up. For example, a LB, a speedy DE, a real NT, or another great ZBS running back to go with Slaton. If we use our number one for FS. I will be surprised. If we use a second or a third for one, he may not be better than what we alrady have. At least not next year, which if I remember is a make or break year for Kubiak. If we don't post a winning record next season, he will follow Richard Smith out the door.

[barrett]

I agree with Arky on this one. I would not call 28 over the hill at any position with the possible exception of running back.

I believe the thinking of Kubiak differs from most fans when it comes to FS. I think the FS safety is one of the most exposed positions on the defense, so most fans really notice it, especially on long pass plays. What they don't notice is any deficiences he might have against the run. Most ball-hawking safeties are probably not also going to be great against the run, and I don't think Kubes is looking for one of those.

With our first round pick we might be able to get a ball hawking FS who also plays the run well, but if what we already have is servicable, then I think Kubiak uses that pick for some other position which more desperately needs shoring up. For example, a LB, a speedy DE, a real NT, or another great ZBS running back to go with Slaton. If we use our number one for FS. I will be surprised. If we use a second or a third for one, he may not be better than what we alrady have. At least not next year, which if I remember is a make or break year for Kubiak. If we don't post a winning record next season, he will follow Richard Smith out the door.

Regarding Wilson, does anyone think his best football is ahead of him?

As for another position "more desperately" needing help, you are nuts. We are Mediocre and Terrible at our safety spots. There is not a position on our roster that has been a bigger hole, and its been that way our entire existence.

As for your argument about ball-hawking/run stuffing etc... 3 of the 5 most valuable defensive players in the NFL are Safeties (polamalu, sanders, reed). They are far more valuable than any CB or 4-3 LB. Only a handful of pass rushers (ware and maybe harrison), come close to the impact of these 3 guys. DT probably is #3 in terms of importance, but they are the least likely defensive position to help next year (your own argument).

They NFL is a passing league these days and the impact of the MLB is greatly diminished. The FS is the new captain and leader of the NFL defense, and the best defenses show this. So if we can get a great FS or a Demarcus Ware type edge guy I am fine with either. No other defensive position has close to the impact though, and I don't see us going offense.

[jppaul]

Personally after seeing the Rose Bowl I would draft Mays at 15, provided of course that he was still around, which if what Kirk Herbstriet said about Mays running a 4.28 at 225 pounds, he might not be. If that was true he would probably go top 10 like Sean Taylor.

Did anybody else see his hit on Norwood and his own teammate? I can count on one hand collisions, that I have seen, more violent than that. Unbelievable.

[barrett]

agreed. I have wanted a safety for a while but I didn't know enough about draft prospects to say who. After tonight he seems to fit the bill. He plays a great centerfield and has good range against the passing game, but he clearly comes up and hits with the best of them.

[Arky]

Regarding Wilson, does anyone think his best football is ahead of him?

Statistically (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=4494), his production (for the Texans) was as it was in his first 3 years for New England. A couple of less games, a couple of less INT's... I don't see any reason why he can't maintain that another year or two... At the very least, he's a solid backup...


As for another position "more desperately" needing help, you are nuts. We are Mediocre and Terrible at our safety spots.

I'll go with mediocre but I don't believe terrible applies to Barber/Wilson/Ferguson.


There is not a position on our roster that has been a bigger hole, and its been that way our entire existence.

Tell me about it. If the Texans draft another safety, that'll make 5 safeties in 6 drafts (Hello Glen Earl, CC Brown, Harrison and Barber). Maybe they can get it right this time?


.......... So if we can get a great FS or a Demarcus Ware type edge guy I am fine with either. No other defensive position has close to the impact though, and I don't see us going offense.

Well, great FS's or Damarcus Ware's don't grow on trees and I think you know that... I think it'll take a first round pick (maybe a 2nd) to find someone of that quality. An edge rusher or wild man linebacker would be my choice. They probably *will* get another safety but I'm not holding my breath on an early rounder... Plus there are needs elsewhere..... i.e. a complimentary/backup RB for Slaton. If Slaton got injured, who could fill in?

[barrett]

Statistically (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=4494), his production (for the Texans) was as it was in his first 3 years for New England. A couple of less games, a couple of less INT's... I don't see any reason why he can't maintain that another year or two... At the very least, he's a solid backup...



I'll go with mediocre but I don't believe terrible applies to Barber/Wilson/Ferguson.



Tell me about it. If the Texans draft another safety, that'll make 5 safeties in 6 drafts (Hello Glen Earl, CC Brown, Harrison and Barber). Maybe they can get it right this time?



Well, great FS's or Damarcus Ware's don't grow on trees and I think you know that... I think it'll take a first round pick (maybe a 2nd) to find someone of that quality. An edge rusher or wild man linebacker would be my choice. They probably *will* get another safety but I'm not holding my breath on an early rounder... Plus there are needs elsewhere..... i.e. a complimentary/backup RB for Slaton. If Slaton got injured, who could fill in?

No way does another 4-3 LB have as big an impact. In the 4-3 the LB position is not very important. LBs in general are dropping in importance as the league leans more and more towards the passing game. The only big impact LBs left in the NFL are 3-4 pass rushers. Not one 4-3 LB made the probowl in the AFC this year. And of the good defenses that run a 4-3, it is not LB they are strong at. The 4-3 in its current form is a DL and Secondary dominated defense. It makes no sense to draft another LB right now with a top pick.

Now if we can get what we think is a GREAT edge rusher at DE I am fine with that. Pass rush is probably the number one key to a good defense and we need help there. If not then I say FS.

[Arky]

No way does another 4-3 LB have as big an impact. In the 4-3 the LB position is not very important. LBs in general are dropping in importance as the league leans more and more towards the passing game. The only big impact LBs left in the NFL are 3-4 pass rushers. Not one 4-3 LB made the probowl in the AFC this year. And of the good defenses that run a 4-3, it is not LB they are strong at. The 4-3 in its current form is a DL and Secondary dominated defense. It makes no sense to draft another LB right now with a top pick.

Now if we can get what we think is a GREAT edge rusher at DE I am fine with that. Pass rush is probably the number one key to a good defense and we need help there. If not then I say FS.

We'll see........ :)

[popanot]

Hope I'm wrong, but right now there's no chance in hell Mays makes it to #15.

[nunusguy]

I think a "dark horse" selection for the Texans first round pick is another OT if none of the defensive prospects are on the Board that the Texans think are good value at #15 and they can't trade back.
It's another strong year for LTs and Brown has struggled with pass blocking and might be more suited to play inside or RT with Winston moving inside. Plus the Texans have more flexibility this year with a second round pick for the first time in 3 years.

[Bigtinylittle]

Regarding Wilson, does anyone think his best football is ahead of him?

As for another position "more desperately" needing help, you are nuts. We are Mediocre and Terrible at our safety spots. There is not a position on our roster that has been a bigger hole, and its been that way our entire existence.

As for your argument about ball-hawking/run stuffing etc... 3 of the 5 most valuable defensive players in the NFL are Safeties (polamalu, sanders, reed). They are far more valuable than any CB or 4-3 LB. Only a handful of pass rushers (ware and maybe harrison), come close to the impact of these 3 guys. DT probably is #3 in terms of importance, but they are the least likely defensive position to help next year (your own argument).

They NFL is a passing league these days and the impact of the MLB is greatly diminished. The FS is the new captain and leader of the NFL defense, and the best defenses show this. So if we can get a great FS or a Demarcus Ware type edge guy I am fine with either. No other defensive position has close to the impact though, and I don't see us going offense.

I just looked up last years draft and apparently there aren't many teams that consider free safety the most critical position in today's NFL. Kenny Phillips was the first safety picked, and he was only the 31st player picked. Picked ahead of him were 12 other defensive players, all at positions where we need help (DT,DE,LB) There were also 5 RB's picked before Phillips. In the second round there was only one safety drafted. As I said before, I'll be surprised if we go safety in the first.

[NBT]

Maybe the safeties are not drafted originally all that highly, but as you have just pointed out above, the best ones are the hubs of their respective defensive teams. In retrospect maybe they should be drafted higher and more often too. Or just maybe they are the hardest position to judge from college to pros?

[jppaul]

Hope I'm wrong, but right now there's no chance in hell Mays makes it to #15.

Right now in draftniks minds there is a pretty good chance that Mays makes it to 15, Todd McShay of ESPN has him ranked 28th, but I agree with you completely. You will see his value shoot up the boards after the combine provided he runs in the 4.3s.

He is an impact player runs the 100 in 10.5 while in high school and runs the 40 in 4.28. He is the definition of an impact player, and those are in short supply.

I personally think he goes in the top 10, with San Franscisco being a likely landing place, although they have so many needs they you never know. The Raiders could look at him too, but they have bigger needs, notably a wide reciever Maclin fits the bill.

Packers at number 9 could also go that directtion as they are not nearly as bad as their record and got kinda screwed over by injuries this year. Beanie Wells could shore up thier running game if he comes out, or they could go after Everette Brown or Aaron Maybin to fortify their pass rush.

Bills seem pretty set at safety with Witner and company. They need some O-line help and could go for Monroe or Oher provided they are around.

Saints are an option though you would think with Jason David they would go for an immediate replacement, Vontae Davis or Malcolm Jenkins come to mind.

Broncos could do it althouhg they already have alot of money invested in the secondary, but they might be better served to bolster thier pass rush, becuase this past season shows that even good to great corners can't hold their own forever. Again Aaron Maybin, Everette Brown or Orakapo are options.

Finally the Redskins could go for Shawn Taylor 2.0 (but faster and more athletic). If I were them though I might look for a thumper at LB, Maluaga or Luarnitis.

The bottom line is that the value of Safety is down the road for many teams as compared to the key stone positions that teams assign a higher value to such as CB, DE, QB, OT. On the other hand the profile of impact safeties has shot up in the past couple of years, so who knows.

I hope he makes it to 15 though.

[painekiller]

Right now in draftniks minds there is a pretty good chance that Mays makes it to 15, Todd McShay of ESPN has him ranked 28th, but I agree with you completely. You will see his value shoot up the boards after the combine provided he runs in the 4.3s.

He is an impact player runs the 100 in 10.5 while in high school and runs the 40 in 4.28. He is the definition of an impact player, and those are in short supply.



If he runs in the 4.4s, he is gone before our pick. Much less a 4.3.

[barrett]

I just looked up last years draft and apparently there aren't many teams that consider free safety the most critical position in today's NFL. Kenny Phillips was the first safety picked, and he was only the 31st player picked. Picked ahead of him were 12 other defensive players, all at positions where we need help (DT,DE,LB) There were also 5 RB's picked before Phillips. In the second round there was only one safety drafted. As I said before, I'll be surprised if we go safety in the first.

List for me the defensive players who impact a game more than Bob Sanders, Troy Polamalu, and Ed Reed.

[cadams]

I think a "dark horse" selection for the Texans first round pick is another OT if none of the defensive prospects are on the Board that the Texans think are good value at #15 and they can't trade back.
It's another strong year for LTs and Brown has struggled with pass blocking and might be more suited to play inside or RT with Winston moving inside. Plus the Texans have more flexibility this year with a second round pick for the first time in 3 years.

man, they still have way too many holes to spend another 1st rounder on a lt. while brown a pro bowler this year, he did progress nicely, and everyone knew he would take a year or two to develope since he has only been playing tackle (not even left tackle) for 3 years. i think everyon agrees he has progressed nicely. also, why would you move him to rt? they have a good rt. if all the DL prospects are gone, i would prefer to trade back a little and get a top safety for the secondary, or even a linebacker. the only offensive pick i want to see in the first 4 rounds is on a bigger running back to help slayton, and that had better not be before the 3rd.

[Mike]

I think a "dark horse" selection for the Texans first round pick is another OT if none of the defensive prospects are on the Board that the Texans think are good value at #15 and they can't trade back.
It's another strong year for LTs and Brown has struggled with pass blocking and might be more suited to play inside or RT with Winston moving inside. Plus the Texans have more flexibility this year with a second round pick for the first time in 3 years.

No way in hell do they take a tackle. Brown had murders row of pass rushers to face as a rookie. Brown is not suited to play inside, he is going to be a solid LT for years to come. He also garned some pro-bowl votes. He needs to work on technique and conditioning, but he is going to be a starter for years to come (barring a Charles Spencer injury) Winston aside from the Raiders game was very good. Duane is going to be just fine.

[jppaul]

No way in hell do they take a tackle. Brown had murders row of pass rushers to face as a rookie. Brown is not suited to play inside, he is going to be a solid LT for years to come. He also garned some pro-bowl votes. He needs to work on technique and conditioning, but he is going to be a starter for years to come (barring a Charles Spencer injury) Winston aside from the Raiders game was very good. Duane is going to be just fine.

How do you know that he garnered some pro-bowl votes?

[Mike]

Kubes said that in his last radio show when they asked him about the progress of Duane Brown.

[papabear]

Kubes said that in his last radio show when they asked him about the progress of Duane Brown.


I like Brown, but where did these votes come from....online fan voting? That's about as reliable as the golden glove. If he got some from the players coaches that one thing, but the getting some votes from the fans is meaningless. I think I might have voted for him once, and I don't consider him a pro bowl player.....yet;)

[Mike]

Kubes I beleive said they were votes from his peers. If you want to fact check it, listen to his last interview on 610, I am sure it is podcasted. That is about the only time I listen to 610 is for the coaches show.

[nero THE zero]

List for me the defensive players who impact a game more than Bob Sanders, Troy Polamalu, and Ed Reed.

You could say that about a lot of positions.

List offensive players who impact that game more than Peyton Manning, Randy Moss, or Brian Westbrook. But, drafting drafting a player that plays a certain position doesn't guarantee you will get the impact that Ed Reed or Peyton Manning provide.

While it would be nice to get an Ed Reed, you could just as easily get a Donte Whitner.

And to answer your question; Albert Haynesworth.

[barrett]

You could say that about a lot of positions.

List offensive players who impact that game more than Peyton Manning, Randy Moss, or Brian Westbrook. But, drafting drafting a player that plays a certain position doesn't guarantee you will get the impact that Ed Reed or Peyton Manning provide.

While it would be nice to get an Ed Reed, you could just as easily get a Donte Whitner.

And to answer your question; Albert Haynesworth.

I don't think you can say that about a lot of positions. What other defensive position has three players who impact the game like that? Those three are easily among the top 5-7 defensive players in the NFL (Reed and Polamalu are probably the best). The only other guys in the conversation are maybe allen, harrison, Ware, and Haynesworth. And the Titans did not seem to miss Haynesworth nearly as much as a team like Indy misses Sanders.

Either way my point was that regardless of last year's NFL draft (which my statement was a reply to) there are more true game changers at Free Safties than anywhere else.

As for a FS maybe being Ed Reed and maybe Donte Whitner. Thanks for the newsflash. Every position is like this so how is it more relevant at FS. That is why I have never been locked into any position (FS included). If we can get a GREAT pass rusher, DT, or FS than pull the trigger (it should BPA among those three as far as I'm concerned, though we are younger and deeper at DT than the other two). But I don't see a CB or LB making a huge difference for us. NO CB in the NFL is a game changer at this point (otherwise the Raiders and Broncos would be able to play defense), and no 4-3 OLB is either.

[nero THE zero]

I don't think you can say that about a lot of positions. What other defensive position has three players who impact the game like that? Those three are easily among the top 5-7 defensive players in the NFL (Reed and Polamalu are probably the best). The only other guys in the conversation are maybe allen, harrison, Ware, and Haynesworth. And the Titans did not seem to miss Haynesworth nearly as much as a team like Indy misses Sanders.

Either way my point was that regardless of last year's NFL draft (which my statement was a reply to) there are more true game changers at Free Safties than anywhere else.

As for a FS maybe being Ed Reed and maybe Donte Whitner. Thanks for the newsflash. Every position is like this so how is it more relevant at FS. That is why I have never been locked into any position (FS included). If we can get a GREAT pass rusher, DT, or FS than pull the trigger (it should BPA among those three as far as I'm concerned, though we are younger and deeper at DT than the other two). But I don't see a CB or LB making a huge difference for us. NO CB in the NFL is a game changer at this point (otherwise the Raiders and Broncos would be able to play defense), and no 4-3 OLB is either.
Agreed. I just hate seeing people hitch their wagons to positions instead of players. People always advocate "FS in the first round," or "we have to draft a speed rusher in the first round," which obviously is a bad idea in a number of ways. I'm not saying you did that, but to fixate on the importance of a certain position while not considering the players available at that position is futile.

[barrett]

Agreed. I just hate seeing people hitch their wagons to positions instead of players. People always advocate "FS in the first round," or "we have to draft a speed rusher in the first round," which obviously is a bad idea in a number of ways. I'm not saying you did that, but to fixate on the importance of a certain position while not considering the players available at that position is futile.

I agree completely. There a number of spots where we can get an impact player and when it comes time to draft, I hope our staff goes with a player they are in love with rather than attempts to fill a need.