What is the verdict on Okam?

[NBT]

Too lazy?
Uncoachable?
Not in shape?
Not commited to football?
OR just plain not good enough?

LAST: Will Kubiak bring him in for another try next year?

[papabear]

His biggest problem is that he's a first year DT. I don't think he's necessarily lazy or uncoachable....he's probably never had to try before. That takes some getting used to when for the last 8 years you've been able to get by on bulk alone.

I hope they give him a chance to develop, but 5th rounders have a shorter leash.

[kravix]

He was a fifth round pick who many argue has first round talent. That aside DT's dont typically come out of the gate in full glory for everyone to bask in. The odds of him not making the team next year are slim imo, if he was that bad he would be on the PS atm or no where.

His upside as a player, his size, and what ever ability he has shown in college and the NFL, adds up to the player being groomed to finally move TJ back to where he should be.

Mario- sink or swim
Ryans- sink or swim
Amobi- sink or swim
Daniels- Had to prove he was the better TE
Bennet- Needed a chance to play
Diles- Needed a chance to play
Adibi- Needed a chance to play
Slaton- Hit the ground running

Our biggest impact rookies over the last few years, and only Mario, Ryans, and Daniels have shown consistently that they are better than average.

Talent wise Okam is no Henderson or Hayensworth. Right now I couldnt even tell you if he has the talent TJ does, but obviously the coaches see or hope there is something in the kid to play at this level.

I said it about Mario, if you asked me about Amobi now I would say it, and I will say it about Okam.. DL cannot be judged until the third year. Hell I will even say that about TJ till the end of this year, given the piss poor coaching and bad positioning he had prior to last few years.

[nero THE zero]

He's a guy who has historically been known as lazy and unmotivated. He's currently a guy who's "a long, long way away." I hope he turns out to be a valuable contributor, but his past doesn't exactly inspire confidence in that.

That being said, I'm sure he's back next year. There's no reason to give up on a player after one year.

[Nconroe]

well, overall I agree with Kravix. give him time to develop. I think I've only seen Okam in a game twice and both times he seemed to do okay, ie. move the pile, make a tackle. But mostly he is inactive for now. hope he's back and develops.

[NBT]

But how will Okam improve if he is not given a chance to get more reps. If it is true you learn from your mistakes, then let him make his now rather than at a crucial time later. Same with Molden.

[barrett]

you don't reward bad play and inconsistent effort with playing time.

[sinnister]

you don't reward bad play and inconsistent effort with playing time.

One has to play in order to play poorly.

[barrett]

One has to play in order to play poorly.

And Okam has played and done nothing. Besides you earn playing time by how you practice. Poor practice habits don't equal playing time. And I bet nobody would be clamoring for him to play if he hadn't worn a certain shade of orange in College. I mean, if it was just about wanting the young guys on the field, people would be calling for more Deljuan Robinson who actually did something when he got in.

[sinnister]

And Okam has played and done nothing. Besides you earn playing time by how you practice. Poor practice habits don't equal playing time. And I bet nobody would be clamoring for him to play if he hadn't worn a certain shade of orange in College. I mean, if it was just about wanting the young guys on the field, people would be calling for more Deljuan Robinson who actually did something when he got in.

He really hasnt played a lot, so to say he has done nothing when he has had a few reps is not accurate. I don't know what his practice habits are, and neither do you. The coaches could be playing a better player at this time with limited upside, versus playing Okam who might better in the next 2 years. No one knows what actually is going on.

[barrett]

1. he has played and not performed
2. he cannot get on the field ahead of Zgoniga and Deljuan Robinson
3. his coach has referred to him needing to "figure out " practicing in the NFL
4. He was a 5th round pick to start with and barely made the team
5. 32 teams passed on him 4 times because he doesn't try


Here are some reasons he can't see the field. Now why don't you give us a few actual reasons that he SHOULD see the field other than "we don't know he's bad in practice."

[sinnister]

1. he has played and not performed
2. he cannot get on the field ahead of Zgoniga and Deljuan Robinson
3. his coach has referred to him needing to "figure out " practicing in the NFL
4. He was a 5th round pick to start with and barely made the team
5. 32 teams passed on him 4 times because he doesn't try


Here are some reasons he can't see the field. Now why don't you give us a few actual reasons that he SHOULD see the field other than "we don't know he's bad in practice."

1. Since you know how many plays he has been on the field, how many has he played, and what was the outcome of each. Also, please note if he did what he was asked....for example, did he occupy blockers, etc. If you look back, he has not played a lot.

2. I gave you that reason. They are better at this stage.

3. You're right. He does have to figure things out. Most rookies do. That's not a shock. Glenn Dorsey evidently needs to figure things out right now as well. I can name a lot of DL who have been taken in the last few years who havent figured it out, but are getting better. No one debates this.

4. We don't know if he "barely made the team". The only thing here is that he was a 5th round pick.

5. 32 teams passed on Steve Slaton as well. They did it twice. 28 teams passed on Joe Montanna. This has nothing to do with anything. Okam may fail or he may not. We don't know. I do know that there is a MUCH greater chance that Frank Okam will be on the Houston Texans 5 years from now than Jeff Zgoniga. If we were still playing for the playoffs, fine. Once we are mathematically eliminated, we should be playing for the future. That is all I said.

[Arky]

Mr. Okam will be "active" for the game in Green Bay.

If Weaver can’t play, he will be replaced by DelJuan Robinson. Defensive tackle Frank Okam will be active as an added lineman.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6148219.html

[barrett]

1. Since you know how many plays he has been on the field, how many has he played, and what was the outcome of each. Also, please note if he did what he was asked....for example, did he occupy blockers, etc. If you look back, he has not played a lot.

2. I gave you that reason. They are better at this stage.

3. You're right. He does have to figure things out. Most rookies do. That's not a shock. Glenn Dorsey evidently needs to figure things out right now as well. I can name a lot of DL who have been taken in the last few years who havent figured it out, but are getting better. No one debates this.

4. We don't know if he "barely made the team". The only thing here is that he was a 5th round pick.

5. 32 teams passed on Steve Slaton as well. They did it twice. 28 teams passed on Joe Montanna. This has nothing to do with anything. Okam may fail or he may not. We don't know. I do know that there is a MUCH greater chance that Frank Okam will be on the Houston Texans 5 years from now than Jeff Zgoniga. If we were still playing for the playoffs, fine. Once we are mathematically eliminated, we should be playing for the future. That is all I said.

thanks for all of that. Now go back and re-read my post. I asked you for reasons why Okam SHOULD play. The closest you came was he is young and we have a losing record.

Please anyone tell us why Okam SHOULD play. Anyone...

[sinnister]

thanks for all of that. Now go back and re-read my post. I asked you for reasons why Okam SHOULD play. The closest you came was he is young and we have a losing record.

Please anyone tell us why Okam SHOULD play. Anyone...

I think I answered most of the reasons why he shouldnt play, which only one was valid. The only valid reason you gave is that he hasn't figured it out yet, and yes you are probably right. Where he was drafted has nothing to do with anything. The reason he should get some reps is to see if how he plays because of his age and talent. No one can tell you any other reason why he should play because there isnt any. I said that in the last post if you read it.

[HPF Bob]

Actually, where he was drafted does matter since teams will generally have more patience with players in the 1st and 2nd rounds to develop than they will guys taken in the 5-6-7 rounds. Realistically, Okam has two years to blossom or he'll probably be a camp cut in 2010.

[barrett]

I think I answered most of the reasons why he shouldnt play, which only one was valid. The only valid reason you gave is that he hasn't figured it out yet, and yes you are probably right. Where he was drafted has nothing to do with anything. The reason he should get some reps is to see if how he plays because of his age and talent. No one can tell you any other reason why he should play because there isnt any. I said that in the last post if you read it.


That's my point. There is no reason for him to play. You cite age as your only reason, and yet we have three guys currently ahead of him who are 21,24,and 26. Which two of the these three young guys who have thus far outperformed him do you want to bench so Okam can play?

[nero THE zero]

I think I answered most of the reasons why he shouldnt play, which only one was valid. The only valid reason you gave is that he hasn't figured it out yet, and yes you are probably right. Where he was drafted has nothing to do with anything. The reason he should get some reps is to see if how he plays because of his age and talent. No one can tell you any other reason why he should play because there isnt any. I said that in the last post if you read it.

Where he was drafted in this instance does matter because of the reason of where he was drafted.

If you're talking about a player that was drafted in the mid-late rounds because he was a productive college player with unspectacular size/measurables, or a player drafted in the mid-late rounds because he has an injury history, you might have a legitimate gripe in not giving him a shot on the field.

But, when you have a player who fell to the mid-late rounds because he has a history of being unmotivated, lazy, and taking plays off; and his coach says he's a long way away (re: lazy and unmotivated) and, thus, cannot get on the field; you have a player who's exhibiting the same flaws for which he fell in the draft and is undeserving of playing time.

Leave it to the UT homers to turn a 5th rounder into such a polarizing issue.

[idymoe]

Well, being a U of H grad, I'm certainly no UT homer. I like Kubiak as a coach, but he has demonstrated a lack of candor when he talks to the press. Mostly concerning injuries, but in other areas as well. Many times in the past years, the extent of players injuries has been noticeably worse than what he was leading the public to believe. Also, he has indicated that certain players would see more time on the field, but didn't follow through as we were led to believe. I think he also tries to play mind games with some of the players with his public statements. The first season or two, I took his statements at face value, but now, I don't. If he says an injured guy is day to day, I think "we'll see". If he says Molden is going to get a lot more base play on the field, I think, "we'll see". He has told us a few times that he should have played certain young players more. What stopped him?

At any rate, however he may rationalize his pt for Okam to the public, I can't take at face value. Maybe he's being 100% upfront about it, but how would I know?

I record and rewatch all the games. Okam has played very little. He was able to get push on passing plays and fairly well stood his ground on running plays. I didn't see any plays that made me say, "good god, get TJ back in there!" Okam is unique on the Texans D-line because of his size. I know he can't go all out every play. If he can go all out for only 6 plays in a row, for example, I would like to see him rotated in for those 6 plays. Robinson has been the only tackle that makes me happy when he is in. The rest have just been bodies. Okam has the potential to be more than just a body. I would like to see him get some snaps every game.

[sinnister]

[QUOTE=idymoe;6035

I record and rewatch all the games. Okam has played very little. He was able to get push on passing plays and fairly well stood his ground on running plays. I didn't see any plays that made me say, "good god, get TJ back in there!" Okam is unique on the Texans D-line because of his size. I know he can't go all out every play. If he can go all out for only 6 plays in a row, for example, I would like to see him rotated in for those 6 plays. Robinson has been the only tackle that makes me happy when he is in. The rest have just been bodies. Okam has the potential to be more than just a body. I would like to see him get some snaps every game.[/QUOTE]


Thank you!!

[sinnister]

That's my point. There is no reason for him to play. You cite age as your only reason, and yet we have three guys currently ahead of him who are 21,24,and 26. Which two of the these three young guys who have thus far outperformed him do you want to bench so Okam can play?

Again, to outperform on the field, one has to play. Okam hasn't gotten the reps you are saying.

[sinnister]

Leaving it to the UT homers to turn a 5th rounder into such a polarizing issue.


Not a UT person. I was born in Houston, always rooted for the Oilers/Texans. I live in Louisiana.

[sinnister]

Actually, where he was drafted does matter since teams will generally have more patience with players in the 1st and 2nd rounds to develop than they will guys taken in the 5-6-7 rounds. Realistically, Okam has two years to blossom or he'll probably be a camp cut in 2010.

In this instance, I disagree with you Bob. Barrett said that a reason he shouldn't be playing is because he was drafted in the 5th round. That isn't a reason for him not to play; however, you are right about your statement as a whole. The lower one is drafted, the less time he has.

[barrett]

Again, to outperform on the field, one has to play. Okam hasn't gotten the reps you are saying.

Which of those three young guys do you want to take reps from?

Why do you think Deljuan Robinson currently gets reps and Okam doesn't?

[NBT]

I know what you are getting at, but none the less Kubiak has stated more than once that he should have played a player (rookie) sooner than he did.

[nero THE zero]

I know what you are getting at, but none the less Kubiak has stated more than once that he should have played a player (rookie) sooner than he did.

Kubiak has also stated that Okam is "a long, long way away."

Those two statements are incongruous, so I wouldn't bank on his coming back and regretting playing Okoye/TJ/Deljuan in place of Okam.

[sinnister]

Kubiak has also stated that Okam is "a long, long way away."

Those two statements are incongruous, so I wouldn't bank on his coming back and regretting playing Okoye/TJ/Deljuan in place of Okam.


Okam wouldn't be replacing Okoye. 2 different types of DT.

[NBT]

No, he would be replacing TJ, who has never really impressed me with his play. I still think B.J. Raji DT Boston College would be an improvement, and maybe the answer for that ailing Dline.

[Joshua]

Okam wouldn't be replacing Okoye. 2 different types of DT.

That would imply we have some sort of consistent strategy of what type of DTs we want and a gameplan of how to use them. From what I've been able to gather, we draft undersized DTs who are not that great at the point of attack and whose best skills are getting up the field and pressuring the QB. After doing this, we then ask them to stay at home and then read and react which basically negates their skills and forces them to play to their weaknesses.

[nero THE zero]

Okam wouldn't be replacing Okoye. 2 different types of DT.

They rotate their DT. We could slide TJ to the 3-tech and put Okam in at NT. That's really pretty irrelevant though

The idea that Kubiak is going to come back and have regrets for not playing Okam like he did with Walter and Diles is unlikely given his comments on where Okam is at.

[sinnister]

I think most would agree that TJ plays out of position. Since this is the case, I tend to cut him some slack with his play. He should probably be rotating with Okoye. Okoye really needs to start coming on, but maybe the scheme is holding him back.

[NBT]

It is really a shame. Okam was pointedly asked if football is really what he wanted, or was he looking to law shcool? He answered football, but he apparantly was just trying to get some football money so he could start his law degree. What a waste of talent.

[painekiller]

It is really a shame. Okam was pointedly asked if football is really what he wanted, or was he looking to law shcool? He answered football, but he apparantly was just trying to get some football money so he could start his law degree. What a waste of talent.

Where is this coming from? Is he quitting the team? Or is it just that he has not lived up to you expectations?

NBT you come out of left field on a lot of your statements, but when you make up something like this either link it or say you are making it up yourself. IN web talk that is covered by the line "IMO" "In My Opinion for the less informed.

[Nconroe]

I am pretty sure I heard Kubiak on 610 about three weeks ago say he'd like to see Molden and Okam get more playing time.

I think the lazy talk was back during draft when he dropped from first to fith round.

Of course they are trying to win as well, so maybe they just aren't able to rotate in the newest guys that much.

Doesn't seem like much to worry about as defense does seem to be better for various reasons all have mentioned.

[NBT]

Where is this coming from? Is he quitting the team? Or is it just that he has not lived up to you expectations?

NBT you come out of left field on a lot of your statements, but when you make up something like this either link it or say you are making it up yourself. IN web talk that is covered by the line "IMO" "In My Opinion for the less informed.

I'm sorry you think some of my posts come out of left field PK, but maybe it just shows that we often have differing viewpoints on how some things happen. I don't have a link but it was pretty common knowledge right after last years draft, that Okam was pointedly asked if his mind was on law school, or playing pro ball. He emphaticaly stated that he really wanted to play pro ball. I just thought that since Kubiak thinks he is a long long way from being ready to play, that he was just putting up a smokescreen in order to get the money for law school. JMHO. Probably wrong, but it does bear thinking about.

[Bigtinylittle]

I'm sorry you think some of my posts come out of left field PK, but maybe it just shows that we often have differing viewpoints on how some things happen. I don't have a link but it was pretty common knowledge right after last years draft, that Okam was pointedly asked if his mind was on law school, or playing pro ball. He emphaticaly stated that he really wanted to play pro ball. I just thought that since Kubiak thinks he is a long long way from being ready to play, that he was just putting up a smokescreen in order to get the money for law school. JMHO. Probably wrong, but it does bear thinking about.

I'm with Painkiller on this one. Although your suspicions about may be correct, there isn't anywhere enough evidence to say they are. If he is lazy and undermotivated, we should know it by sometime next year. Till then, I'm going to cautiously give him the rookie benefit of the doubt.

[painekiller]

I'm sorry you think some of my posts come out of left field PK, but maybe it just shows that we often have differing viewpoints on how some things happen. I don't have a link but it was pretty common knowledge right after last years draft, that Okam was pointedly asked if his mind was on law school, or playing pro ball. He emphaticaly stated that he really wanted to play pro ball. I just thought that since Kubiak thinks he is a long long way from being ready to play, that he was just putting up a smokescreen in order to get the money for law school. JMHO. Probably wrong, but it does bear thinking about.

The reason we come here is for the different views. And I am not against that. But your surmise was stated a lot stronger then what it was. You maybe correct in your surmise about law school, but until we see a blurb about him quitting the team to go to law school....

Another couple of factors are what I see in play here. One might be the fact that DL have historically had a slow transition to the NFL. Vince Wilfork a 1st round can't miss player, now playing at a probowl level, took a few years to become the starter for the Pats. Lesson #1 you have to give DTs 3 years at least before calling them bust.

Another myth at play is the curse of Mack Brown. Many top athletes go to Austin and never seem develop from their freshman year. They seem to live a blessed life. No one criticizes them nor pushes them. Articles have been written about this subject, and their are exceptions, but guys like Mike Williams OT, and Cory Redding DT are poster boys. Okam maybe the latest chapter of this story. One of the problems with myth, is that you have to wait to see if the player will develop from NFL coaching which is much different from the warm soft cushy place that Mack has for them.

A common factor with these point of views is time. We need time to see which guys get it which guys do not. And Okam will have to show progress next summer to still be a part of this team.

[kravix]

I am not 100% on this, but I believe even given his percieved lazy attitude his production in college was very good. His stock was very high his junior year and he was projected as a 1st rounder. I couldnt find it, but I am almost positive that his production his senior year was on par with the previous year, but a change in def scheme hurt him somewhat.

Maybe he is just getting money for law school, and maybe Amobi is just getting money for Nigeria... Okam was drafted in the 5th, and no he isnt a starter, not uncommon for 5th round picks. I dont see how any conclusions can be made about him, especially when the "3 year rule" for DL is taken into consideration.

Given the investment teams make for high picks, and the pressure of having to play them for that much money, there is nothing to say that Okam could or could not produce at the same level as Amobi atm. It is all assumptions based on coach speak from Kubiak, and draft hype.

For a dude that is taking 2-3rd string snaps in practice he hasnt looked that bad in the few games he played in. And the difference between 1st and 2nd team snaps is huge.

Tim Bulman is in his 4th year and was an undrafted rookie, but most are very high on him. His first 3 years he barely played, and now he has 16 tackles, 4 sacks, has only been active 11 games, and has started none.

I dont think there is any way a player can make it all the way to the NFL without having a passion for the game. Some make it partially on pure ability, but that isnt enough. The dedication, even at the college level, to keep up is huge. The possibility of a 5th rounder not making it is alot bigger than that of a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd rounder.