Football Air Pressure Controversy

[Nconroe]

Apparently 11 of 12 footballs from Patriots tested low air pressure after the game. Not sure how low, or what proper range should be.

Did they test Colts balls also?

Are balls always tested after games? Sounds like for sure two hours before games they are tested.

I was thinking one solution is don't let teams keep their balls during a game, have refs or league official keep balls for everyone if used in game.

From my own experience there is some happy medium football pressure best for a given temperature and rain effect for any given game. So slightly lower air pressure if cold and wet might make it easier to throw the ball and catch the ball on pass plays, but less distance and accuracy. If running the ball, maybe less likely to fumble? On kicks and punts, might give more distance if short/poch kicks/ and better direction control .

It wasn't really that cold, 45 degrees or so. Was raining some of the time.

If this was cheating intentionally, what should penalty be?

Right now all speculation as NFL hasn't released any official findings yet.

[barrett]

I'm a Patriots fan 2nd since I'm from there originally, but it is beyond defense. It is probably not that uncommon, but the Patriots are just so brazen about how they go about their cheating under Bellichik. It is hugely disappointing and takes the shine off a super bowl appearance for sure.

[HPF Bob]

The NFL has ruled that since the Patriots technically violated the rules, they will take a draft choice away from the Bills next April. :p

[Arky]

I just don't think it's that big a deal. Much ado about nothing. Does it make the ball easier to run with or pass/catch passes in inclement weather? Possibly. Maybe 1 instance out of 100 - just a guess. I haven't done thorough research on the subject but I would speculate that punts and kickoffs would travel less far with an under-inflated ball... Maybe their "ball checker" had a bad day....

Just really don't see a competitive advantage, here.....

[Nconroe]

Apparently Tom Brady likes a slightly underinflated football and he is having a press conference right about now.

difference between 11.5 and 12.5 psi, 1 psi low, not sure what that changes.

[Nconroe]

Just to update a few of rumors and stories going around

1. story out of Boston CBS affiliate this morning is that balls were given to referees before inspection a little low and they didn't inflate them so perhaps everything ok other than a check didn't really make a correction? this is normal for balls to be hi or lo and then officials are to put in the right range of 12.5 to 13.5, maybe didn't happen.

2. another story is Patriots turned over a film of ball boy taking two sacks of balls into a restroom( room?) for 90 seconds. but seems Pats have talked to him and ok, but NFL says person of interest, although some say NFL already has 40 people interviewed by NFL.

3. Apparently official NFL rules say fine for tampering with football is $25,000. ie. not a major offense.

4. Bob Kraft, Pats owners came out pretty strong saying if this is a bunch of bad NFL publicity he wants some big apologies.

5. Some testing shows if you take a football at 70 degrees to a another area at say 45 degrees, after an hour it likelyl looses 1 psi just naturally.

6. Some testing shows very difficult to tell feel of football changes much for 1 psi or that this impacts play positively or negatively and that each QB and person will hold football differently.

so, hopefully we should not prejudge in this case what really happened and it may be unprovable what happened, but maybe can be made more transparent in future.

just play the game

Another thought - is if nfl officials, refs, umpires handle the ball on every play, including in first half, why didn't they notice a ball was low pressure at that time and get a good ball in play. And, the Seattle players says he never said the ball was underinflated, he gave the ball to his ball boy to keep since he made interception on the play. This leads some to say there was a conspiracy by someone who was trying to trap Pats into this low deflated ball situation.

Of course, if only nfl employees, such as perhaps reserve ump and not the teams handled ball once inspected this couldn't happen either.

[barrett]

I figured this was the most appropriate place to put this.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13559321/houston-texans-owner-bob-mcnair-deflategate-jj-watt-not-destroy-phone

Somebody needs to muzzle Bob McNair. First he goes after Foster when he's hurt, now he is taking shots about NE in a season we have to play them, and he is dragging JJ Watt's name into it for no reason. Why make JJ enemies?

McNair really is an idiot. The more he opens his mouth, the more you see it.

[Keith]

McNair really is an idiot. The more he opens his mouth, the more you see it.

That or he is an out of touch billionaire that habitually underestimates his audience.

[chuck]

I'm going to go with idiot. There is zero reason to comment on this matter at all.

Apparently McNair has not been watching Hard Knocks.

[Nconroe]

Maybe he wanted to be on Hard Knocks.

Hard to argue on this one.

[WMH]

Ruling overturned, at least for now.

Should go away with game 1 kickoff....

[Nconroe]

Fwiw, I agree with the judge.
Goddell should let it go.

[HPF Bob]

I agree with the judge, technically, but I so want to see Belicheat and the Patriots not get away yet again with another infraction.

I don't see why the NFL doesn't just punish the Patriots the way they always punish the Texans - with phantom holding calls at critical moments of the game. Nothing is announced and nothing is admitted but let's see what happens if Brady gets kicked in the nuts like Schaub was and have nothing called.

[barrett]

I agree with the judge, technically, but I so want to see Belicheat and the Patriots not get away yet again with another infraction.

I don't see why the NFL doesn't just punish the Patriots the way they always punish the Texans - with phantom holding calls at critical moments of the game. Nothing is announced and nothing is admitted but let's see what happens if Brady gets kicked in the nuts like Schaub was and have nothing called.

Are you really whining about them getting away with it? The league rules call for a $25K fine for equipment tampering (what Minnesota and Carolina got for getting caught doctoring footballs on the sidelines last season, http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings ). Today, Brady's suspension was vacated, but as far as I know the Patriots are still rung up on a $1,000,000 fine and a loss of a 1st round draft pick.

It's jealous whining fans like you that result in this even being a story at all, let alone still being talked about in September. Were you maybe a voter in this poll back in May?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12881342/poll-shows-fans-support-nfl-sanctions-tom-brady

ESPN (which I am pretty sure is a subsidiary of the NFL) conducted a poll that shows %63 of fans think Brady and the Pats deserved their punishment. Interestingly, only %54 of the same fans believe Brady and the Patriots cheated. This means almost %10 of the football fans polled think the Patriots are not guilty but should still be punished. I am pretty sure that includes Bob.

[HPF Bob]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I think (warning: opinion) that the Patriots cheated but the NFL couldn't prove it. This isn't a court of law. The Black Sox were found not guilty (their signed confessions magically disappeared) in court but Judge Landis still gave the players lifetime bans.

Maybe with access to Brady's cellphone, the circumstantial case could be proven with a confirming text. But we'll never know. Not unless the NSA steps forward with proof.

So, yes, the Patriots get away with cheating again.

[barrett]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I think (warning: opinion) that the Patriots cheated but the NFL couldn't prove it. This isn't a court of law. The Black Sox were found not guilty (their signed confessions magically disappeared) in court but Judge Landis still gave the players lifetime bans.

Maybe with access to Brady's cellphone, the circumstantial case could be proven with a confirming text. But we'll never know. Not unless the NSA steps forward with proof.

So, yes, the Patriots get away with cheating again.

How dense are you Bob? They didn't get away with anything. They got fined a 1st and 4th round pick and fined $1,000,000. That is the opposite of getting away with something.

[HPF Bob]

How dense are you Bob? They didn't get away with anything. They got fined a 1st and 4th round pick and fined $1,000,000. That is the opposite of getting away with something.

But all the Patriots care about is winning - at any cost.

Think they care about a big fine? They just went out and signed Reggie Wayne.

Think they care about losing draft picks? They'll just trade Garoppolo next winter and get them back.

Keeping Tom Brady for 16 games means a lot more to them than fines or draft picks. Yeah, they "got away with it". Belicheat and Brady are laughing their asses off.

[Nconroe]

Hate to get into this, but didnt they say only one ball was deflated out of 12, 11 balls deflated was misinformation.

And didnt Brady do better after halftime when balls were all inflated properly.

So lots of rhetoric over nothing.

Then the rules say 25k fine for messing with equipment so if your opinion right the fine is out of line.

Then this is the fifth discipline overturned by courts recently, so this is likely worse for league image than anything.

Of course there is even precedent for people destroying a phone and not being punished.

So mistake was made by nfl trying to entrap someone due to unproven speculation.

The case being appealed is about the nfl process so not even about deflated balls.

This year i think they are using calibrated guages, measuring each ball before game and halftime, and keeping in possession of nfl till needed. Things that in hindsightvshould havevalways been done.

[barrett]

But all the Patriots care about is winning - at any cost.

Think they care about a big fine? They just went out and signed Reggie Wayne.

Think they care about losing draft picks? They'll just trade Garoppolo next winter and get them back.

Keeping Tom Brady for 16 games means a lot more to them than fines or draft picks. Yeah, they "got away with it". Belicheat and Brady are laughing their asses off.

Do you truly think they are laughing about the loss of a 1st and 4th round pick? Nobody who knows anything about football could really think that.

[HPF Bob]

So, what was their punishment for Spygate, you may be asking?

The Patriots were also fined $250,000, and stripped of their first-round selection in the 2008 NFL Draft;

So the Patriots have had to forfeit their #1 pick before yet they still returned to the Super Bowl. It hardly slowed them down. If they're missing out on the 30th best player in the draft, is it really such a hindrance?

[barrett]

So, what was their punishment for Spygate, you may be asking?


So the Patriots have had to forfeit their #1 pick before yet they still returned to the Super Bowl. It hardly slowed them down. If they're missing out on the 30th best player in the draft, is it really such a hindrance?

Bob, I am going to assume that you are blinded by your hate of the Patriots, because I always assumed that you know about football. Nobody who knows anything about football would say something as dumb as 1st round picks don't matter because a team once won a super bowl almost a decade after losing a 1st round pick.

[HPF Bob]

What hurt them more was Brady getting knocked out with a knee injury for one season. Since then, they have not failed to make the playoffs and, three years hence, were back to the Super Bowl and have been in the AFC Championship Game four straight seasons. So losing that first-rounder (32nd pick in the draft) hardly slowed them down at all.

For a team like the Texans, losing their #1 pick is a substantial blow. For the Patriots, it was just collateral damage.

[barrett]

What hurt them more was Brady getting knocked out with a knee injury for one season. Since then, they have not failed to make the playoffs and, three years hence, were back to the Super Bowl and have been in the AFC Championship Game four straight seasons. So losing that first-rounder (32nd pick in the draft) hardly slowed them down at all.

For a team like the Texans, losing their #1 pick is a substantial blow. For the Patriots, it was just collateral damage.

You are embarrassing yourself every time you argue that a 1st round pick doesn't matter (even a low one).

But you don't believe a 1st doesn't matter. You just think it's not enough because New England partially overcame it once. So are you saying you don't want the Patriots punished, you want them punished enough so they can't win?

With no proof they did anything wrong, plenty of scientific uncertainty anything even happened, and the NFL leak that started the whole thing being a lie, you want them punished in a way that makes sure they cannot make the super bowl for at least 3 years? What does that look like? Postseason ban like college? Removal of Tom Brady for the year?

What about Minnesota and Carolina? Do you think they should be let off the hook since they lose already without penalties? If a team cheats and loses you don't seem to care.

Tell me exactly what you think should happen Bob? What should be done to Bellicheat (especially since the NFL's own investigation cleared Bellicheat of any involvement)? What would be a big enough punishment to stop you from whining?

[HPF Bob]

Well, we started with a four-game suspension - 1/4th of the regular season. That was just fine with me. Don't ask me how Goodell came up with the formula - two games for punching out your girlfriend but four games for failing to hand over a cellphone. But Goodell had his reasons and four games sounded like it would actually HURT the Patriots since obviously fining them and removing draft choices doesn't.

That's the whole thing about the Patriots and Steelers. They cheat all day long on Sundays and they may get a fine or a wrist-slap on Tuesdays but it doesn't discourage them. They're all about winning and paying fines is just a cost of "doing business", just like the drug cartels. If you want them to hurt, you pull their key players out of action.

That's what a four-game suspension does and I was going to enjoy the heck out of it because maybe then someone else could win the AFC East and New England wouldn't get to spend at least half the playoffs winning in snowy, slushy mush with deflated balls.

Some judge spoiled my Christmas and even though the judge had a point, he has no legal right to overturn a commissioner's suspension. Who in the name of Kenesaw Mountain Landis does he think he is?? I'm flabbergasted that a judge even had to rule. Aren't there better uses of his time than this?

[barrett]

Well, we started with a four-game suspension - 1/4th of the regular season. That was just fine with me. Don't ask me how Goodell came up with the formula - two games for punching out your girlfriend but four games for failing to hand over a cellphone. But Goodell had his reasons and four games sounded like it would actually HURT the Patriots since obviously fining them and removing draft choices doesn't.

That's the whole thing about the Patriots and Steelers. They cheat all day long on Sundays and they may get a fine or a wrist-slap on Tuesdays but it doesn't discourage them. They're all about winning and paying fines is just a cost of "doing business", just like the drug cartels. If you want them to hurt, you pull their key players out of action.

That's what a four-game suspension does and I was going to enjoy the heck out of it because maybe then someone else could win the AFC East and New England wouldn't get to spend at least half the playoffs winning in snowy, slushy mush with deflated balls.

Some judge spoiled my Christmas and even though the judge had a point, he has no legal right to overturn a commissioner's suspension. Who in the name of Kenesaw Mountain Landis does he think he is?? I'm flabbergasted that a judge even had to rule. Aren't there better uses of his time than this?

So you really think punishment should be based on what hurts and not on standards? Should fines for speeding be based on your salary? If you're poor say $25 and if you're rich $1000 plus 4 weeks in jail?

Do you really think if the Panthers and Vikings get caught doctoring footballs and the Patriots might have done the same, that the Patriots should be crushed and the other two get off completely because the Patriots are good?

[barrett]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart

I'm going to make a bit of a 180 here.

I just read this and maybe I see things differently Bob. I am guessing you feel like the owners who were autonomously quoted here. That New England got an almost free pass on a super serious cheating scandal with Spygate. They cheated for a huge competitive balance and probably won super bowls as a direct result of that cheating. Then they mostly got away with it. Other owners and fans begrudgingly accepted the punishment but always felt it should have been worse.

So this time around Goodell had to go for blood because his bosses wished they had last time. So even though there was no evidence, possibly/probably even no crime, and no real competitive advantage gained if there was one, everyone felt it was time to crush them.

I still think everything that has happened regarding only this case is a joke. The league has run a failed sting, paid millions for a clearly biased report, and leaked reports to create the story in the first place. It is likely the Patriots tried to have their balls right at or slightly less inflated than the 12 lb rule. That is like having pine tar a half an inch too high on the bat. Not to mention the Colts had under-inflated balls in the same game.

But when you cheat in the past, you kind of earn that kind of reaction.

[HPF Bob]

As for the speeding sidebar, Jack Johnson was the heavyweight boxing champion in the 1900s and enjoyed flaunting his lifestyle, which included driving around with white women - a definite no-no for a black man back then.

So a cop pulled him over for speeding as he passed through a town in his roadster and the cop told him he'd have to pay a fine. "How much is it?", asked Johnson.

Thinking he needed to be made an example of, the cop made up an amount - $50 (keep in mind that, in that day, $50 was probably more than a month's salary for most men).

Johnson whipped out a $100 bill and told the cop to keep the rest because he just knew he'd be driving too fast through that town on his way back.

So, while it is not democratic, if the fine is not going to be enough to deter repeat offenses, then the fine is not stiff enough - regardless how much the figure is.

I've already concluded Goodell's punishment calculations are whacked (thus my Ray Rice comparison) so it doesn't matter to me how many games Goodell gave Brady as long as it was enough to keep it from happening again. Whatever it is, someone will complain it is too lenient and others will complain it is too stiff.

[barrett]

But if you screw up the punishment the first time, you can't just make up a new one seven years later for the fun of it because a handful of owners didn't like the way you covered up for your buddy Bob Kraft the first time. That is why the judge the NFL picked in the venue they picked said what you are doing is so wrong that you can't do that, even when the CBA specifically says you can. Because CBA or not, it is actually illegal to treat employees that way.

So the NFL needs to wait for New England to actually break another rule (or they need to actually catch them when they do depending on your view point) to assign that deterrent level punishment. They can't just manufacture an offense with fake leaks, crooked lawyer investigations, and a fall guy that opposing fans like you will eat up.

The NFL is just lucky Kraft cares more about his owner's club and making money then anything else, or he would have sued them and brought down the whole league for the whole farce.

The NFL is also lucky ESPN does whatever they are told and doesn't have any journalists left.

[HPF Bob]

The NFL has contracts with all the major tv networks for the very purpose of controlling the coverage it receives. Think of crossing us? We'll remember that the next time your rights package comes up.

Barrett, the libertarian and jurist in me agrees with you. I'm just providing the countering viewpoint and if they happen to ever single out the Patriots or the Steelers for punishment, to me it just makes up for all the favorable officiating they get.

Before John Madden was the beloved NFL granpa, he was the coach of the Raiders and they used to get away with so many cheap shots. They were experts at throwing an elbow at an opponent's throat as he was laying on the ground. The Raiders once had a DB named Neal Colzie who following in the footsteps of Jack "They Call Me Assassin" Tatum, a fellow Buckeye alum.

Colzie learned from his master how to throw that elbow at the throat and, while playing for the Raiders, he got away with it. Then, one year, he was waived and picked up by the Dolphins. As a Dolphin, he tried the same crap and would always get flagged for it. Did the refs finally grow a set of eyes after he stopped playing for the Raiders or did the refs see it all along but just wouldn't call it while he was in silver and black?

[barrett]

The NFL has contracts with all the major tv networks for the very purpose of controlling the coverage it receives. Think of crossing us? We'll remember that the next time your rights package comes up.

Barrett, the libertarian and jurist in me agrees with you. I'm just providing the countering viewpoint and if they happen to ever single out the Patriots or the Steelers for punishment, to me it just makes up for all the favorable officiating they get.

Before John Madden was the beloved NFL granpa, he was the coach of the Raiders and they used to get away with so many cheap shots. They were experts at throwing an elbow at an opponent's throat as he was laying on the ground. The Raiders once had a DB named Neal Colzie who following in the footsteps of Jack "They Call Me Assassin" Tatum, a fellow Buckeye alum.

Colzie learned from his master how to throw that elbow at the throat and, while playing for the Raiders, he got away with it. Then, one year, he was waived and picked up by the Dolphins. As a Dolphin, he tried the same crap and would always get flagged for it. Did the refs finally grow a set of eyes after he stopped playing for the Raiders or did the refs see it all along but just wouldn't call it while he was in silver and black?

I don't disagree with any of this.

And the NFL should have buried New England in 2007 and if they ever get actual evidence (not a failed sting they try to prop up), they should bury them in the future.

My biggest problem is that the fat cats at NFL headquarters did not go after Bob Kraft of the Patriots organization because they all make money on deals he negotiates and revenue his franchise shares. Instead they tried to make their point with Tom Brady. They wagered hate of the Patriots would be enough for most people and it was. If they had run a competent investigation and had gone through the correct motions in their witch hunt appeals trial, Brady would be the fall guy, and the owners would have buried their hatchet without ever touching their own pocketbooks.

Their may not be a more entitled and corrupt group in the US than pro sports owners. These guys operate a monopoly, steal public money, dump on their employees as much as they can get away with, and somehow the public is more jealous of the players' millions than the owners' billions.

[HPF Bob]

I don't disagree with any of this.

And the NFL should have buried New England in 2007 and if they ever get actual evidence (not a failed sting they try to prop up), they should bury them in the future.

My biggest problem is that the fat cats at NFL headquarters did not go after Bob Kraft of the Patriots organization because they all make money on deals he negotiates and revenue his franchise shares. Instead they tried to make their point with Tom Brady. They wagered hate of the Patriots would be enough for most people and it was. If they had run a competent investigation and had gone through the correct motions in their witch hunt appeals trial, Brady would be the fall guy, and the owners would have buried their hatchet without ever touching their own pocketbooks.

Their may not be a more entitled and corrupt group in the US than pro sports owners. These guys operate a monopoly, steal public money, dump on their employees as much as they can get away with, and somehow the public is more jealous of the players' millions than the owners' billions.

The investigation was incredibly botched. No way could they have taken that through a real judicial system and expect it to hold up. I read that guy's report and was asking "Where's John Dowd when you need him? That guy buried Pete Rose."

As to why fans rip players and not the owners, I don't have an answer.

[Nconroe]

New article saying science is overwhelming from multiple top universities that no air pressure scandal should have existed.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/1-year-after-deflate-gate-ballooned--science-shows-shame-of-it-all-073316233.html

Did my own little experiment using my four car tires, put 32 puonds in all four. I can do digital readout anytime, maybe you can too.
Anyways, if temperature goes down to about 50 which is common right now, tire pressure varies between 26 and 31 pounds and differs which of four tires is lowest by morning . quite variable. if go down to 40 degrees seems range is 26 to 29 psi. if up to 70 degrees range is 30-32 psi.

I guess NFL owes Brady and Patriots an apology, a draft pick, and a million dollars.

[barrett]

I saw that yesterday. The whole thing was absurd. The only thing I can think is...

1) Goodell was sweethearts with the Pats in 2007 and let them off way too easy.
2) Other owners always resented it and Goodell
3) Goodell agreed to the sting at the behest of Irsay/Bisciotti/Others
4) When the sting didn't turn up what they wanted, ex-Jet employees in the league office leaked false data
5) Brady and Kraft handled it terribly. Give in and count on getting bailed out by Uncle Roger, then don't give in. Destroy phone to hide infidelity or something worse, but unrelated to football
6) Tens of Millions of fans who hate the Patriots drive a media frenzy by clicking on every article about the cheating patriots
7) Goodell counts it all a win since public opinion and League owners still approve of him going after NE even though nothing happened.