Clowney to IR, Ending His Rookie Season

[HPF Bob]

Clowney goes to IR and I presume we'll be hearing all week how the Texans screwed up not drafting Blake Bortles. It may turn out to be so but, for the QB, we know that being healthy enough to play isn't the same thing as playing well. Despite not being the starter when the season began, Bortles leads the league in interceptions (15). I'm sure some of that is due to playing behind so much and not having great weapons.

It does make you wonder how this season might have been different if we had drafted Bortles 1/1 but I don't want to conclude yet that the Texans made a mistake. If we're getting the same lack of production out of Clowney next year, I could be convinced it was a wasted pick but not yet.

[nunusguy]

Clowney goes to IR and I presume we'll be hearing all week how the Texans screwed up not drafting Blake Bortles. It may turn out to be so but, for the QB, we know that being healthy enough to play isn't the same thing as playing well. Despite not being the starter when the season began, Bortles leads the league in interceptions (15). I'm sure some of that is due to playing behind so much and not having great weapons.

It does make you wonder how this season might have been different if we had drafted Bortles 1/1 but I don't want to conclude yet that the Texans made a mistake. If we're getting the same lack of production out of Clowney next year, I could be convinced it was a wasted pick but not yet.

I don't see how this can now be a Clowney vs Bartles Draft question just because Clowneys rookie season was a disaster, unless it's because it happens to coincidently be the week that Clowney goes IR is the same week we play the Jags ? I can think of 2 or 3 rookie QBs that I'd rather have than Bortles and least several other non QBs and it's only because of perhaps of one team drafting very high that wants Bortles that he's takin in the top half of the first round.

[Keith]

I can think of 2 or 3 rookie QBs that I'd rather have than Bortles
Really? Which ones? I still think Bridgewater and Bortles are my two faves from this draft class and would have been happy with either. I wanted Teddy over Clowney and others then, and I'd still take Teddy now. In spite of the picks, I've been a bit impressed with Bortles. He's just got hot garbage around him for playmakers right now. I think he'd be considerably more effective if he had Foster, Hopkins, AJ, etc. around him.

[HPF Bob]

It seemed to me that the Texans took Clowney because they couldn't justify passing him up rather than being in love with guy. I think they were in love with Bortles even though the fan base was in love with Manziel. So, I think it is fair to say that if Clowney had not been available, the Texans would have taken Bortles.

Then you figure no trade for Mallett, Fitz has a rather permanent seat on the bench and the Texans are probably 5-11 while we watch Bortles make a lot of mistake and excuse them because he's a rookie and still learning. It's a whole different season.

Now, I'm speaking from the standpoint of someone who fully endorsed drafting Clowney so this is no "told you so" post. It's also too soon to say the Texans made a mistake but I would expect the "we should have taken a QB first" chorus to chirp up with news of Clowney being done for the year.

As I've said before, it's amazing to see the improvement this year when you realize we got almost nothing from our first five draft picks.

[nunusguy]

Really? Which ones? I still think Bridgewater and Bortles are my two faves from this draft class and would have been happy with either. I wanted Teddy over Clowney and others then, and I'd still take Teddy now. In spite of the picks, I've been a bit impressed with Bortles. He's just got hot garbage around him for playmakers right now. I think he'd be considerably more effective if he had Foster, Hopkins, AJ, etc. around him.

Bridgewater, Carr, & Garappalo. Did not like J.Football - average arm, besides he's gonna end up in one big cast.

[nunusguy]

In a Draft absent any apparent elite QBs or any who O'Brien liked, Clowney was obviously the most highly rated player. Now whether or not he's the best remains to be seen, but I just think the Texans took the best player (according to what the xperts said) who in effect was thought to be the safest pick, who also played a premium position that was a big need area for the Texans. The only question I have about the Texans Draft stradegy was why they were holding out for so much to trade the #1, if the reports were true.

[barrett]

Bortles looks terrible. He also looked terrible about half the time against AAC competition last year. He didn't start looking great until the football games stopped, the draft process started, and he was being evaluated in shorts instead of pads. I'll be shocked if we ever regret not drafting Bortles. And I think we will crush him this weekend.

[Keith]

Then you figure no trade for Mallett, Fitz has a rather permanent seat on the bench and the Texans are probably 5-11 while we watch Bortles make a lot of mistake and excuse them because he's a rookie and still learning. It's a whole different season.
You think Bortles would have started from Game 1 in this scenario? I don't. I think we would have seen much of the same thru Fitzy's benching three weeks ago. Bortles might have been handed the starting job around the same time as Mallett (during the bye week). At least thru the first 11 games, I don't think the season would have been much different. Since the Cleveland game though, yeah... total unknown how Bortles would have done, but I suspect not as well as Mallett did, but who knows.

[barrett]

You think Bortles would have started from Game 1 in this scenario? I don't. I think we would have seen much of the same thru Fitzy's benching three weeks ago. Bortles might have been handed the starting job around the same time as Mallett (during the bye week). At least thru the first 11 games, I don't think the season would have been much different. Since the Cleveland game though, yeah... total unknown how Bortles would have done, but I suspect not as well as Mallett did, but who knows.

Maybe the QB position would have gone the same, but do you really think we'd have the same record without Clowney's contribution?

[Keith]

do you really think we'd have the same record without Clowney's contribution?
OGAu_DeKckI

[Keith]

Mod note: Split the Clowney IR discussion from the Jags game thread. Hope I pulled away all of the relevant posts on this topic.

it's amazing to see the improvement this year when you realize we got almost nothing from our first five draft picks.

It's tough to truly assess a draft less than 3 or more years out, but when you already have a sinking feeling that a draft (like this one) is nearing total disaster less than 1 year out, it's a bad sign.

Clowney - IR
XSF - backup
CJF - backup
Irish Chocolate - IR
Savage - project QB

... At least in the case of the first four listed, it will be like having two rookie classes in training camp in 2015 when these guys all come back. That's the glass half full way of looking at this. The other way is to shudder in thinking that the same knuckleheads who came up with this class are likely putting the names on the cards again next year.

[HPF Bob]

Despite what I said, I'm still okay with the draft. XSF and CJF will play bigger roles next year. Clowney and Nix, I hope, will be healthy and big contributors (not too big for Nix since he needs to lay off the fried chicken). Savage? Well, the job is wide open and he probably will have two years minimum to leave an impression.

[Arky]

Clowney out 9 months (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2014/12/texans-clowney-has-microfracture-surgery-could-miss-beginning-of-next-season/#23208101=0) after having microfracture surgery. Looks like he may miss the start of 2015.....

[popanot]

Clowney out 9 months (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2014/12/texans-clowney-has-microfracture-surgery-could-miss-beginning-of-next-season/#23208101=0) after having microfracture surgery. Looks like he may miss the start of 2015.....Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but this guy's career is in jeopardy. Very few come back from this sort of surgery. If this injury is related to an injury he sustained in college, Rick Smith should be fired immediately. If this is related to the injury he sustained from the turf, well, Bob McNair is a complete imbecile because he knows darn well that turf sucks and has continued with it for 12 years now.

[WMH]

Definitely another poor look for the Texans medical staff. Supposedly, per Rick Smith via Jabba, the Texans knew this was a possibility but wanted to try less invasive option first. I'll defer to the guys in the white coats as to whether or not that was a good idea.

Saw on PFT that Reggie Bush and Maques Colston had this surgery. They've turned out fairly well.

[Keith]

This is very bad.

And if you want to believe this from Rick Smith:
“It’s a pretty extensive rehab period,” general manager Rick Smith said. “We’re hoping to have him back for the start of the season."

then you're a fool. No doubt he is missing the start of the 2015 season. Best case he is ready mid-season.

[HPF Bob]

From Worldwide Leader:

After he met with renowned orthopedic surgeon James Andrews on Wednesday, it was determined that Clowney needed a second surgery on his right knee.

Dr. Walt Lowe, the Texans' team doctor, performed both the scope on Clowney's knee earlier this season and the microfracture surgery.

So, Dr. Lowe didn't get it done right the first time so the Texans give him a second crack it?? :mad::confused::mad:

This is the first overall draft choice that we paid a ton of money to and the Texans are going cheap by using the in-house surgeon who didn't fix the problem the first time. This sounds like Mario and his feet all over again. Man, does this get old.

[chuck]

What a joke of a franchise. They will never win anything, ever. Not unless they hire a Parcells sort who comes in and totally takes over. I don't know if there are any Parcells sorts left.

[Keith]

Well, we can trust in the team's experience with microfracture surgeries. It went so great with Brennan Williams. Remember him? The 3rd round pick from 2013 who was cut a year later after he underwent the procedure.

Seriously. Injuries are a fact of life in the NFL, but the medical history on this team has been an issue since the Tony Boselli drama and the days of the expansion draft. Maddening misinformation and an apparent lack of accountability when it comes to the medical side of their business.

[nunusguy]

From Worldwide Leader:



So, Dr. Lowe didn't get it done right the first time so the Texans give him a second crack it?? :mad::confused::mad:

This is the first overall draft choice that we paid a ton of money to and the Texans are going cheap by using the in-house surgeon who didn't fix the problem the first time. This sounds like Mario and his feet all over again. Man, does this get old.

But ultimately it's Clowneys call, and he obviously chose to return to the Texans
doctors instead of going elsewhere. Wonder why ?

[WMH]

Well, we can trust in the team's experience with microfracture surgeries. It went so great with Brennan Williams. Remember him? The 3rd round pick from 2013 who was cut a year later after he underwent the procedure.

Seriously. Injuries are a fact of life in the NFL, but the medical history on this team has been an issue since the Tony Boselli drama and the days of the expansion draft. Maddening misinformation and an apparent lack of accountability when it comes to the medical side of their business.

Seth Payne said something interesting on the radio today regarding Boselli. Per him, the Texans knew he was damaged goods but was required to spend X in the expansion draft. He also said there was likely a handshake deal with the Hags that they would leave him and Gary Walker as eligible for the draft if they cleared Boselli off the books. Interesting thought......

Heard a lot about the Clowney thing today, and as best I could gather was the Texans gambled as to whether or not he could function with just the scope. Turned out he couldn't and this is where we're at. Supposedly he didn't do any more damage to the knee as a resultof trying.

[HPF Bob]

Seth Payne said something interesting on the radio today regarding Boselli. Per him, the Texans knew he was damaged goods but was required to spend X in the expansion draft. He also said there was likely a handshake deal with the Hags that they would leave him and Gary Walker as eligible for the draft if they cleared Boselli off the books. Interesting thought......

Heard a lot about the Clowney thing today, and as best I could gather was the Texans gambled as to whether or not he could function with just the scope. Turned out he couldn't and this is where we're at. Supposedly he didn't do any more damage to the knee as a resultof trying.

Chatty Casserly was totally obvious about the expansion draft. A team could either draft 38 (I think) players or draft to a certain salary figure. The Browns, the year before, went the first way and basically drafted rubbish (with a few minor exceptions) so Casserly decided to draft to the salary cap.

The Jets, Jaguars and Ravens were in "salary cap hell" over the revised cap levels and needed to get some pricey players off their payrolls. So Casserly approached those three teams with deals to expose good players if we would also draft some bad contracts to help the teams out of their cap positions.

So the Jags exposed Gary Walker and Seth Paine if we'd also draft Boselli.
The Jets exposed Aaron Glenn, Marcus Coleman and Ryan Young and the Ravens exposed Jamie Sharper and Jermaine Lewis. There were a couple of other names that escape me but, essentially, there were quid pro quos done with all three teams and it was a brilliant gambit. It set Dom Capers up with a strong veteran defense from the very beginning while he tried to build a young and inexperienced offense.

Unfortunately, Boselli and Young were garbage and Capers forgot to do anything about building an offensive line for David Carr who turned to jello after a few seasons of setting sack records for a QB. Lots of folks forget we were 7-9 just three years into expansion before it all caved in on itself.

[chuck]

Lots of folks forget we were 7-9 just three years into expansion before it all caved in on itself.

Who cares? Carolina was 7-9 in their first freaking season. Then they went to the conference championship game in their second. Jacksonville was 9-7 in their second year and went to the playoffs four times in their first five seasons. The Texans are a fking joke from the owner on down.

Two other things. The Browns re-entered the league in 1999, not 2001. Also, David Carr sucked not because he had a bad offensive line (which he did). He sucked because he sucked. Suggesting that he would have been successful behind a good line is delusion of the highest order.

[WMH]

Who cares? Carolina was 7-9 in their first freaking season. Then they went to the conference championship game in their second. Jacksonville was 9-7 in their second year and went to the playoffs four times in their first five seasons. The Texans are a fking joke from the owner on down.

Two other things. The Browns re-entered the league in 1999, not 2001. Also, David Carr sucked not because he had a bad offensive line (which he did). He sucked because he sucked. Suggesting that he would have been successful behind a good line is delusion of the highest order.

Your hatred of this franchise coupled with the amount of time you spend paying attention to them is truly fascinating.

[barrett]

Who cares? Carolina was 7-9 in their first freaking season. Then they went to the conference championship game in their second. Jacksonville was 9-7 in their second year and went to the playoffs four times in their first five seasons. The Texans are a fking joke from the owner on down.

Two other things. The Browns re-entered the league in 1999, not 2001. Also, David Carr sucked not because he had a bad offensive line (which he did). He sucked because he sucked. Suggesting that he would have been successful behind a good line is delusion of the highest order.

You are one self hating masochist for the way you frequent message boards of a team you despise like Houston.

It is funny you say the franchise is a joke from the owner down and as proof you cite how great Carolina was there first two years. You can praise a Capers led team as correctly run (Carolina) while eviscerating the Texans for being Capers run. Anything that fits your narrative of Texans incompetence and makes you feel better about your bitterness.

Let me ask you how many teams have won more playoff games than Houston in the last 5 years? How many have won more division titles. I'd imagine about 1/4 of the league has outdone us over that time period, another 1/4 equals us, and half would love to trade places (actual numbers may vary as I took a wild guess).

But you act like the Texans have personally harmed you and the only defense mechanism you have is to tear them down. It's like you need them to be bad so you can hate them instead of loving them and getting heart broken again. So you spew mindless drivel that ignores reality. You are like a divorcee who has to convince herself her ex-husband was the worst person ever to justify leaving. Except you won't leave them.

I can't call myself your friend Chuck because I only know you from an internet message board, but seriously as an internet friend, leave the Texans. It's not a healthy relationship for you.

[nunusguy]

You are one self hating masochist for the way you frequent message boards of a team you despise like Houston.

It is funny you say the franchise is a joke from the owner down and as proof you cite how great Carolina was there first two years. You can praise a Capers led team as correctly run (Carolina) while eviscerating the Texans for being Capers run. Anything that fits your narrative of Texans incompetence and makes you feel better about your bitterness.

Let me ask you how many teams have won more playoff games than Houston in the last 5 years? How many have won more division titles. I'd imagine about 1/4 of the league has outdone us over that time period, another 1/4 equals us, and half would love to trade places (actual numbers may vary as I took a wild guess).

But you act like the Texans have personally harmed you and the only defense mechanism you have is to tear them down. It's like you need them to be bad so you can hate them instead of loving them and getting heart broken again. So you spew mindless drivel that ignores reality. You are like a divorcee who has to convince herself her ex-husband was the worst person ever to justify leaving. Except you won't leave them.

I can't call myself your friend Chuck because I only know you from an internet message board, but seriously as an internet friend, leave the Texans. It's not a healthy relationship for you.

Maybe the Chuckster is afflicted with some kind of new yet undefined form of cyberspace self-mutilation ? Anyway all of your questions/observations are very fair Barrett, I hope the Chuckster gets back with a sincere reply.

[chuck]

Bob goes bragging that the Texans were 7-9 in year three (Three! The next year they were, guess what? 2-14.) and I point out that two other expansion teams did far better, faster. And so I'm some sort of self-hating lunatic that deals in fantasy.

You necks are out of control.

[HPF Bob]

Chuck, I do believe Carr could have been an above-average NFL quarterback with proper protection and handling. His confidence went to zilch once he could no longer trust the players around him to do their jobs and the fan base turned on him during the 2005 season. I point out 7-9 to say we were a competitive NFL team unlike the meme out there that the Texans were never good until Kubiak/Smith came to town. And the 7-9 was really to say that Casserly's approach to the expansion draft was better than the approach the Browns took. I'd still rather start at square one with Carr than start at square one with Tim Couch.

Personally, I wish you'd address the question raised by Barrett and WMH. Why do you care to follow the Texans when they so disgust you? I remember when you used to brag that you were a season ticket holder and, therefore, had a stake in their performance but I haven't heard that line in years so I suspect that's no longer true, particularly since you used to rail against the fan experience of attending games but no longer do.

I also find it amusing that you are more supportive of the baseball franchise that denuded their roster of talent and fielded a true abomination to the sport solely so they could suck so bad as to get the first overall draft choice three years running then can't even sign their top draft choice. Yeah, the Texans sometimes seem poorly run at times but at least they've sniffed a winning season or two recently and don't completely embarrass themselves as often as the Astros do.

[barrett]

Bob goes bragging that the Texans were 7-9 in year three (Three! The next year they were, guess what? 2-14.) and I point out that two other expansion teams did far better, faster. And so I'm some sort of self-hating lunatic that deals in fantasy.

You necks are out of control.

We are all here for you Chuck.

[Keith]

Can't we all agree that the quixotic plight of a Houston pro football fan can lead someone to wayward tendencies? The years of unfulfilled hopes, the mental and physical anguish incurred over decades of abuse, it leaves a scar.

He is chuck. He is you. He is me. He is all of us.

[HPF Bob]

True dat. I remember when the Titans went to the Super Bowl and I complained that it wasn't fair that they got to enjoy the spoils of all our misery. Thanks, Bud. Keep rotting, you old buzzard.

[Nconroe]

It may be some of you just don't follow Chucks humor. just relax.

[barrett]

Can't we all agree that the quixotic plight of a Houston pro football fan can lead someone to wayward tendencies? The years of unfulfilled hopes, the mental and physical anguish incurred over decades of abuse, it leaves a scar.

He is chuck. He is you. He is me. He is all of us.

I am Chuck.

[Nconroe]

I am Chuck.

I bet you don't even look a little bit like Chuck. Mentally, perhaps so.

[Arky]

Can't we all agree that the quixotic plight of a Houston pro football fan can lead someone to wayward tendencies? The years of unfulfilled hopes, the mental and physical anguish incurred over decades of abuse, it leaves a scar.

He is chuck. He is you. He is me. He is all of us.

I am chuck. I am also Napoleon Boneparte. I am the walrus, koo koo ka choo.

[chuck]

This is all fairly entertaining, and I have to say that I'm enjoying the board's being more active than it has been in a long while.

Bob, I know you think Carr would have been a good player under different circumstances. I think that is crazy and I think that the facts clearly state otherwise. He didn't lack confidence, he lacked intelligence. And he never studied film. If you're an idiot who never watches tape you are not going to succeed in the NFL as a quarterback. He had several fresh starts in other places and could never get anywhere close to the field, even on quarterback starved teams.

I was born and raised in Houston. I am a fan of Houston pro football. What do you want me to do, change teams mid-life? Have a second team like you do? I'll do neither. But my fandom does not preclude me from making a sober appraisal of the franchise I follow. It sucks. Two playoff wins in twelve years. That is indefensible.

No, I no longer have season tickets. I'm pretty sure I mentioned my letting them go at the time. When it became clear that the owner doesn't care much about winning and the team is more interested in advertising and cheap jingoism than a football experience inside the stadium I realized that it is lunacy for me to travel internationally six times a year or whatever it was simply to watch a team whose leadership is brazenly disrespectful to its customers. And the lock-out was absolutely the last straw.

And I have absolutely no idea why you think I'm an Astros fan. We've talked about this, too. My esteem for Bob McNair is stratospheric compared to what I think about the current and former owners of the Astros, two slimy dickwads who conspired in a most cowardly way to steal fifty years of history from fans like you and me. No sir, I am no longer an Astros fan. I will admit that I do enjoy watching the team struggle and it pleases me that Luhnow is a league-wide pariah. You'll note that several of their recent free agent targets have turned the Astros down in order to sign less lucrative contracts with other clubs. No one with any real options wants to play for this group of frauds and that makes me happy.

On the other hand I want desperately for the Texans to win; I simply recognize that as currently organized they won't.

The truth is I am not nearly as invested in the team as I once was, both literally and otherwise. It's impossible to continue to be as emotionally tied in as I once was when the team underperforms for more than a decade. Also, I am now a part owner of a professional futbol team here and that takes up a great deal of my sports-related emotion. It's a very rewarding experience, actually. Not financially certainly, but in every other way it has been quite something.

[Foo'ball Fool]

Who cares? Carolina was 7-9 in their first freaking season. Then they went to the conference championship game in their second. Jacksonville was 9-7 in their second year and went to the playoffs four times in their first five seasons. The Texans are a fking joke from the owner on down.

I know I’m jumping in here late. Comparing the expansion teams of 1995 and 1999 to the Texans is almost comparing apples to oranges. In the ‘95 expansion draft, Carolina picked 35 players, and Jacksonville selected 31. In the ’99 expansion draft, the Browns picked up 37 players. in the 2002 expansion draft, the Texans had a choice of taking up to 30 unprotected players or a specified amount of salary cap. There was also some sort of an agreement with the Jags and Jets that they would not protect certain players if the Texans would select a specific player from their roster. From the Jags, the Texans infamously selected Tony Boselli so they could also get Seth Payne and Gary Walker, helping the defense that first year. Likewise, from the Jets, we got Aaron Glenn and Marcus Coleman after we took Ryan Young. 2 starting CBs and 2 starting D linemen to go with 2 O linemen that were worthless to the Texans. The total? 19 players, 2 of whom never played. The Texans had a decent defense in those first years, but with no Boselli or Young, their O-line was a joke. It’s no wonder Carr got sacked so much. The Texans did not pick up the depth in the expansion draft that the other teams did in their draft.
In the ’95 amateur draft, Carolina began with the following picks: 1-1, 1-32, 2-2 (they were stripped of the 2-31 and 6-36 picks because of the way they hired Dom Capers from Pittsburgh), 3-1, 3-34, 4-2, 4-34, 5-1, 5-37, 6-2, 7-1, and 7-41. Jacksonville began with 1-2, 1-31, 2-1, 2-32, 3-2, 3-33, 4-1, 4-36, 5-2, 5-36, 6-1, 6-37, 7-2, and 7-40. In the ’99 draft, the league cut back on the number of picks to Cleveland. They had 1-1, 2-1, 2-14, 3-1, 3-15, 4-1, 4-15, 5-1, 5-15, 6-1, 6-15, 7-1, 7-15, and 7-47. So, Carolina and Jacksonville each started with 14 picks, 2 per round. In 1995. Cleveland also had 14 picks, one in the 1st, 3 in the 7th, and 2 in the others. Houston was set up like Cleveland, except they picked 18th for the second picks in each round, while Cleveland had picked 14th in the 2nd round and 15th after that.
To sum this up, Carolina had 47 drafted players in their 1st camp from their draft. Jacksonville had 45. Cleveland had 51 players, since they selected so many in the expansion draft. Houston’s drafted players? In reality 17 + 14 in the draft makes 31. Houston began with a lot smaller core of talent than the other teams did. So, there were a great number of street free agents in those first few years. So, you really can't compare the expansion Texans to the others. It just won’t fly. Sorry for being long-winded.

[Arky]

This is all fairly entertaining, and I have to say that I'm enjoying the board's being more active than it has been in a long while.

Bob, I know you think Carr would have been a good player under different circumstances. I think that is crazy and I think that the facts clearly state otherwise. He didn't lack confidence, he lacked intelligence. And he never studied film. If you're an idiot who never watches tape you are not going to succeed in the NFL as a quarterback. He had several fresh starts in other places and could never get anywhere close to the field, even on quarterback starved teams.

I was born and raised in Houston. I am a fan of Houston pro football. What do you want me to do, change teams mid-life? Have a second team like you do? I'll do neither. But my fandom does not preclude me from making a sober appraisal of the franchise I follow. It sucks. Two playoff wins in twelve years. That is indefensible.

No, I no longer have season tickets. I'm pretty sure I mentioned my letting them go at the time. When it became clear that the owner doesn't care much about winning and the team is more interested in advertising and cheap jingoism than a football experience inside the stadium I realized that it is lunacy for me to travel internationally six times a year or whatever it was simply to watch a team whose leadership is brazenly disrespectful to its customers. And the lock-out was absolutely the last straw.

And I have absolutely no idea why you think I'm an Astros fan. We've talked about this, too. My esteem for Bob McNair is stratospheric compared to what I think about the current and former owners of the Astros, two slimy dickwads who conspired in a most cowardly way to steal fifty years of history from fans like you and me. No sir, I am no longer an Astros fan. I will admit that I do enjoy watching the team struggle and it pleases me that Luhnow is a league-wide pariah. You'll note that several of their recent free agent targets have turned the Astros down in order to sign less lucrative contracts with other clubs. No one with any real options wants to play for this group of frauds and that makes me happy.

On the other hand I want desperately for the Texans to win; I simply recognize that as currently organized they won't.

The truth is I am not nearly as invested in the team as I once was, both literally and otherwise. It's impossible to continue to be as emotionally tied in as I once was when the team underperforms for more than a decade. Also, I am now a part owner of a professional futbol team here and that takes up a great deal of my sports-related emotion. It's a very rewarding experience, actually. Not financially certainly, but in every other way it has been quite something.

Looking back, I always felt Carr needed a mentor, someone to guide him right from the get-go. Show him how to be a pro in the NFL. Show him in the film room what he needed to do to become a better - someone that knew what they were doing. I've forgotten who his QB coach was at the time but whoever he was, he did a terrible job with Carr. Instead, he was allowed to be the Golden Boy, the face and savior of the new franchise and along the way, he picked up bad habits that were never corrected.

Re: season tickets, I read a lot of Texans stuff on the internet. One thing I've noticed is that the fans who regard their "investment" as disposable income are a lot more at peace with what transpires on Sundays. Especially, when things aren't going well with the team......

Interesting that the joke-of-a-franchise Texans have your favor and the joke-of-a-franchise Astros do not.....

[HPF Bob]

Chuck, I apologize if you're not the "Chuck" that posts at Orange Whoopass and its predecessors. He seems to have the same general attitude about many things as you.

I fully understand the "Houston or die" fandom and having to confront whether you can still support a team that's not heading in the direction you desire. I had to deal with it during the short-lived McDaniels era in Denver as well as the continuing Astros debacle.

I will disagree with the idea that two playoff wins in 12 years is "indefensible". I believe that is more than the Cowboys or Bengals over that time. Certainly more than the Lions, the Chiefs, the Browns or the Dolphins. Assuming they win one more game, the Texans will have just two losing seasons in their past eight. That sounds like they are giving their fans a legit franchise to watch.

I, too, have disagreements with the way some things are handled but, at the bottom, I believe the Texans do what they do because they want to be NFL champions. I believe the Astros do what they do to prove their pet theories and any championships they may accrue are just a byproduct.

[barrett]

Chuck, I apologize if you're not the "Chuck" that posts at Orange Whoopass and its predecessors. He seems to have the same general attitude about many things as you.

I fully understand the "Houston or die" fandom and having to confront whether you can still support a team that's not heading in the direction you desire. I had to deal with it during the short-lived McDaniels era in Denver as well as the continuing Astros debacle.

I will disagree with the idea that two playoff wins in 12 years is "indefensible". I believe that is more than the Cowboys or Bengals over that time. Certainly more than the Lions, the Chiefs, the Browns or the Dolphins. Assuming they win one more game, the Texans will have just two losing seasons in their past eight. That sounds like they are giving their fans a legit franchise to watch.

I, too, have disagreements with the way some things are handled but, at the bottom, I believe the Texans do what they do because they want to be NFL champions. I believe the Astros do what they do to prove their pet theories and any championships they may accrue are just a byproduct.

I think being respected in the Billionaire owner's club and in NFL circles comes first for McNair and championships 2nd. I think if you offered Bob a choice of the following;;

1 superbowl title in the next 2 decades with a 5-6 year stretch of losing that alienated fans somewhere over that time period, plus a scandal of some kind thrown in.

Or another 2 decades just like our last 8 years (6 non-losing seasons like you pointed out, and 2 division titles and playoff wins), general respectability, largely contented fan base, other owners back slapping him, etc...

I think Bob takes door number 2 every time.

[Keith]

I think Bob takes door number 2 every time.
I don't always quote posts out of context.
But when I do, I make sure sodomy is implied.

it pleases me that Luhnow is a league-wide pariah.
There was this Business Week article awhile back about the Astros, talking about Luhnow with the Cardinals before he came to Houston, where this was mentioned, which I enjoyed to no end:
But the people running the Cardinals’ old system resented the bespectacled interloper with his MBA and ideas about how they could do their jobs better. Behind his back, they referred to Luhnow as “Harry Potter”
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-08-28/extreme-moneyball-houston-astros-jeff-luhnow-lets-data-reign

That said, I'm a Moneyball lover, so I find the Astros interesting at least.

[chuck]

I don't always quote posts out of context.
But when I do, I make sure sodomy is implied.

Awesome. Which Bob are we talking about, now?

I agree totally with barrett. McNair is far more interested in the accoutrements of owning a team than he is in winning. Would he like to win? Sure he would. Is he laser focused on winning with everything else distantly secondary? Hell no. That's why I think the team needs a head coach who has the stature and/or personality to work in a different hemisphere to where the owner is. And they certainly need a competent general manager. Every team needs a competent general manager, of course, but the Texans need one pretty desperately.

Yes, Bob, obviously I am the same poster. I announced very loudly over there that I would no longer be a fan of the Astros due to the league change. I'm not interested in being a fan of a team that is the MLB's prison bitch. Also, there, like here, my name is chuck. Chuck is who I am in real life. I use chuck here and there because this is not exactly who I am in real life. I mean, who I am here (and there) is mostly me, but these are message boards filled with a bunch of dumbasses like me and you arguing over idiotic things that don't really matter. And I'm playing a role. I suspect you are too in your own way. I mean everything I say here, of course; I just allow myself a certain latitude.

Arky, yeah, I agree with you on the mentor. As far fandom is concerned I can handle losing and remain a fan. I was an Astros fan for nearly half a century after all. The league switch is an insult that I just can't overcome. A lot of people can. Good for them I guess. But I can't.

[HPF Bob]

You certainly have my respect on that Chuck (or chuck, or possibly "illegal chuck" if you use it beyond five yards); regarding the league switch, that is. No greater an abomination has been done to baseball since the "color barrier" was imposed. I can't wait for Selig to die just so I can urinate on his grave or crypt or urn or whatever he's kept in for eternity. You can choose door number two on that one, should you like.

Y'all may be right about McNair. It doesn't sound like there is an Heir McNair that wants to take over when McNair passes on so at some point in the future the Texans will be sold and the choices will either be some oil patch cowboy who wants to win big but hires a bunch of buffoonish yes men to run the front office or it will be some corporate consortium that will make every decision by consensus and how much money could be saved if they just stripped out all the "luxuries" from the stadium such as hot water heaters for the showers and expensive video screens.

[chuck]

I'll meet you in Milwaukee when the time comes.

I always thought Cal would take over eventually. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll run the team like that drunken clown in Indy, in other words well. Although the two other possible scenarios you present are more likely.

[barrett]

I'll meet you in Milwaukee when the time comes.

I always thought Cal would take over eventually. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll run the team like that drunken clown in Indy, in other words well. Although the two other possible scenarios you present are more likely.

The drunken clown in Indy does only one thing well, he stinks at the right time. His 2 losing seasons have netted him what will likely amount to 3+ decades of HOF QB play. When you are that lucky you can drive around high with bags of cash while tweeting stupid stuff and still be a great owner. Your GM can trade 1st round picks for league worst RBs and still be great. And your HC can miss the whole season and win COY. That is what stumbling on a great QB will do for you.

[popanot]

One man's perspective of what Clowney will go through:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/11/cherilus-says-clowney-is-screwed/

[Keith]

Update on Clowney:
"Hopefully he'll be able to get out on the field sometime during training camp," head coach Bill O'Brien said in a Monday morning NFL Network interview with Tiffany Blackmon. "Maybe at the beginning of training camp if he continues to work at the pace that he's been working."

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/OBrien-gives-update-on-Clowney-rehab/53854c25-dd63-41ab-9b6a-c48fdd079395

Hopefully this means he is not rushing back, and hopefully this is not more inaccurate medical evaluations from the team.

Even if you are a 'wait and see' camper like me, this isn't at least bad news about his progress.

[HPF Bob]

Update on Clowney:

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/OBrien-gives-update-on-Clowney-rehab/53854c25-dd63-41ab-9b6a-c48fdd079395

Hopefully this means he is not rushing back, and hopefully this is not more inaccurate medical evaluations from the team.

Even if you are a 'wait and see' camper like me, this isn't at least bad news about his progress.

I don't fault faster recoveries; only slow ones or misdiagnoses.

[Arky]

Clowney seems to be a likable enough fella and I do believe he sincerely wants to earn his check and carry his weight. Sounds like this type of injury/rehab is a toughie to overcome, though.....

[Warren]

O'Brien on another DL who was injured as a rookie: (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/164951/bill-obrien-sends-another-message-to-louis-nix)
"I have not seen Louis Nix," O'Brien said. "I don't know. He’s working out somewhere in Florida I guess. Haven’t seen him. But that’s their prerogative, so don’t read anything into that. When they show back up here for the offseason program, especially the younger players, the younger players need to be ready to roll. So hopefully he’s ready to go."

I asked what he needs to see change from last season in Nix.

"I would say the ability to make it through a practice," O'Brien said. "That would be the biggest thing I need to see."

Nah, we shouldn't read anything at all into that...

Speaking of the D-line, I was listening to the team's podcast today and they were saying not to rule out a return by Ryan Pickett. He hasn't officially retired, has been working out, and has made his permanent home in the area (his wife is from Missouri City). He definitely made a difference last year. A NT rotation of Wilfork (who will also see some time at DE), Pickett, and Nix would be pretty strong. The two vets would be able to stay fresh with Nix's role limited unless he earns a bigger one or one of the older guys gets hurt.

[HPF Bob]

I'm thinking Nix ate his bonus check and that, to him, is "working out". :rolleyes:

[WMH]

From PFT:

Jadeveon Clowney: I’m making progress, and I’m very encouraged
Posted by Michael David Smith on March 28, 2015, 6:58 PM EDT

Getty ImagesJadeveon Clowney, the No. 1 overall pick in last year’s draft whose rookie season was cut short by a serious knee injury, says he’s doing well in his recovery.

Clowney declined to say how soon he might be back to 100 percent after microfrature surgery, but he is trending in the right direction.

“I’m not going to speak on that, but I’m making progress, and I’m very encouraged,” Clowney told the Houston Chronicle. “I’m working hard, but we’re not going to rush it.”

Clowney says he’s working harder now than he did when he was practicing last season.

“Rehab is tough, tougher than playing. You have to get there earlier than everybody and leave later than everybody,” he said.

Microfracture surgery is serious business, and some athletes never come all the way back from it. The Texans have to hope all of Clowney’s hard work pays off, and that his health allows him to live up to his enormous talent.

[barrett]

I am encouraged he is working hard.

I am also not surprised by his comments about the work involved. He mentions working out 4-5 hours in rehab and how it's harder than football because he has to come in early and stay late. I am guessing this is the first time in his life he has ever come in early or stayed late for anything.

Maybe he will add some work ethic through this whole thing to help offset the inevitable loss of explosion.

[Warren]

Good article on microfracture surgery (http://www.chiefsdigest.com/understanding-microfracture-helps-with-timeline/)

Travis Kelce bounced back nicely after the surgery fwiw.

[Blitzwood]

Good article on microfracture surgery (http://www.chiefsdigest.com/understanding-microfracture-helps-with-timeline/)

Travis Kelce bounced back nicely after the surgery fwiw.

From what I have read, Clowney's surgery was a bit more involved because they removed most of his medial meniscus due to the prior surgery failing to repair it properly. Your meniscus is like the shock absorber between the femur and the tibula, so you can try to imagine not having one and living a normal life..... playing a high contact sport is going to be a REAL challenge, if at all even possible.

There is another forum that has a MD (an orthopod I believe) as a member and it was covered pretty extensively.

I would be shocked if we didn't draft an OLB,( or two) in the first three rounds.