View Full Version : Official Texans vs. Raiders Game Thread, 11/17/2013
The world still turns and there's a game this Sunday.....
The 3-6 Oakland Raiders pay a visit to Reliant Sunday for a noon kickoff with the 2-7 Texans. The Raiders are coming off a close 24-20 road loss to the NY Giants. QB Terrelle Pryor is listed as questionable. The Texans are coming off a close 27-24 road loss to the Arizona Cardinals.
TV = CBS (channel 11 local), Sunday, noon
Announcers (http://506sports.com/nfl.php?yr=2013&wk=11) = Kevin Harlan, Solomon Wilcots
The line (http://www.madduxsports.com/nfl-odds.php) = Texans by 7 to 7.5
HPF Bob
11-16-2013, 11:45 AM
It was mentioned on local radio how close the Texans are to being 0-9 right now and also how close they are to being 6-3.
I think they break the streak this week. Especially if Pryor can't go, the Texans have a winnable game this week. I think they'll finish 5-9.
@caplannfl: #Raiders downgraded QB Terrelle Pryor (knee) to out. UDFA QB Matt McGloin to make first #NFL start at #Texans.
barrett
11-16-2013, 02:06 PM
It was mentioned on local radio how close the Texans are to being 0-9 right now and also how close they are to being 6-3.
I think they break the streak this week. Especially if Pryor can't go, the Texans have a winnable game this week. I think they'll finish 5-9.
Are you counting on the league cancelling our last two games to save us embarrassment?
chuck
11-16-2013, 04:02 PM
Are you counting on the league cancelling our last two games to save us embarrassment?
No, he's just living in the early 1960's. I thought everybody knew that.
Nconroe
11-16-2013, 04:25 PM
Maybe we will tie two remaining games., or.
Anyways I'm in full acceptance of a bad year.
Hope the team plays hard, young guys get experience for next year.
Maybe win a few. Maybe next two are wins would be good.
Nov 17Oakland1:00 pm
Nov 24Jacksonville1:00 pm
Dec 1New England1:00 pm
Dec 5@Jacksonville8:25 pm
Dec 15@Indianapolis1:00 pm
Dec 22Denver1:00
Dec 29@Tennessee
HPF Bob
11-16-2013, 05:04 PM
No, he's just living in the early 1960's. I thought everybody knew that.
Those were 12-game seasons then. I'm actually living in the early 1980s. Namaste!
chuck
11-16-2013, 07:49 PM
Those were 12-game seasons then. I'm actually living in the early 1980s. Namaste!
I can see why you'd want to stop time during President Reagan's first term but the NFL played 14 game seasons from 1961 to 1977.
I don't figure you much for a Summer of Love sort of dude so I went with the early 60's.
HPF Bob
11-16-2013, 08:46 PM
Cue Harold Melvin
"If you don't know me by nowwwwww."...:D
Keith
11-16-2013, 11:23 PM
lol @ chuck
I have a bad feeling about this because I believe the Texans are winning this by multiple TDs. Which means I am in for utter disappointment.
Nconroe
11-17-2013, 09:42 AM
I'm wondering if Shane Lechler has recovered from his bout with the flu.
If not we could see Randy Bullock punting and Matt Schaub holding on kicks.
The spread (http://www.madduxsports.com/nfl-odds.php) has zoomed up to Texans by 10 to 11.5 no doubt to Pryor being out...
Saw the inactives - KJ and Mays are out. Should be interesting - a rookie QB against backup DB's....
Would love to see Case pile up some stats..... In last weeks game, about 1/2 his incompletions were due to pressure, the other half were just off the mark. I'm hoping to see his accuracy to improve - he's more accurate than what he has shown lately.....
BigBull
11-17-2013, 11:44 AM
I hope McCain being in the starting lineup doesn't hurt the Texans to bad.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 12:06 PM
The shit storm of turnovers for the Texans continues.
Martin brings the opening kickoff back to about the Texan 21. Texans ball.
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Screen to AJ loses 3.
Tate rumbles for 11. 3rd and 2 coming up.
Pass to Graham gets the 1st down but Graham has the ball knocked loose. Raiders recover and return it all the way to the Texan 16.
Jennings gets 7.
Reece for 2. Brings up 3rd and 1.
Jennings gets 2 and the 1st down. 1st and goal at the Texan 5.
Jennings for no gain but flags down. Offsides Raiders backs it up 5. 1st and goal at the 10.
Direct snap to Jennings gets 4. 2nd and goal from the 6 coming up.
Jennings for 1. 3rd and goal from the 5.
Pass to Moore goes for the TD.
Raiders 7, Texans 0
9:26 left in the 1st quarter.
Karim fields the ensuing kickoff and gets tackled at the Texan 15. Texans ball.
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Screen to Graham gets 6.
Tate sweeps right for 3. 3rd and 1 coming up.
DJ only gets about 1/2 yard. Texans to punt on 4th and 1.
Raiders bring the punt back to their 23. Raiders ball. 7:22 left in the 1st quarter.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 12:21 PM
I feel like putting a paper bag on my head and I'm watching the game at home. I think I'm beginning to understand how the old Saints fans use to feel.
Pass to Streater gets 4 yards.
Reece gets about 1. 3rd and 5 coming up.
Pass to Rivera goes for about 7 yards and the 1st down.
Intermediate pass to Reece is dropped, inc. 2nd and 10 coming up.
End around to Streater goes for about 8. Flags down.....Roughness on the Raiders makes it 3rd and 17 coming up.
Short dumpoff pass goes nowhere. Still 3rd and 17....
McGloin's pass sails high, inc. Raiders have to punt.
Pass to Streater gets 4 yards.
Reece gets about 1. 3rd and 5 coming up.
Pass to Rivera goes for about 7 yards and the 1st down.
Intermediate pass to Reece is dropped, inc. 2nd and 10 coming up.
End around to Streater goes for about 8. Flags down.....Roughness on the Raiders makes it 3rd and 17 coming up.
Short dumpoff pass goes nowhere. Still 3rd and 17 due to official error....
McGloin's pass sails high, inc. Raiders have to punt.
Martin brings the punt back to the Texan 22 but flags are down..... Holding on Texans backs it up. Texans ball at their 5.
Keenum is pressured and throws the INT. Raiders ball at the Texan 16.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 12:31 PM
Man, that int is all on Keenum.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 12:32 PM
Keenum getting outplayed by another undrafted free agent QB.
McGloin hits Streater for the TD. 16 yards.
Raiders 14, Texans 0
3:45 left in the 1st quarter.
Martin brings the ensuing kickoff back to the Texan 40. Texans ball.
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Tate for 3.
Keenum rolls out and hits Graham for 35. 1st down at the Raider 23.
Dump pass to Tate loses 2. 2nd and 12 coming up.
Keenum's pass to Graham near the sideline sails inc. 3rd and 12 coming up.
Keenum is sacked. Texans will have to punt and 4th and 27.
Raider's fair catch the punt at their 11. Holding on Raiders - 1/2 the distance places the ball at the 6 yard line.
popanot
11-17-2013, 12:40 PM
It's truly stunning how far this team has fallen.
Jennings for 2. 2nd and 8 coming up.
Screen to Streater goes for 6. 3rd and 2 coming up from the 14 yard line.
End of the 1st quarter.
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It's like boneheadedness is contagious with this team....
On 3rd and 2, Jennings just gets 1. Raiders to punt.
Martin brings the punt back to the Texan 32 but flags are down.....Holding on Texans (McCain) backs it up. Places the ball at the Texan 15.
Deep pass to AJ gets 34. Ball near midfield.
Tate gets about 6.
Tate gets 3. Brings up 3rd and 1.
Eheh, Keenum buys time and hits Graham deep for the TD! 42 yards!
Raiders 14, Texans 7
11:52 left in the half.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 12:51 PM
Now I remember what I like about Keenum, his ability to make something out of nothing.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 12:53 PM
How the hell is McGloin making all these throws on the Texans?:confused:
Raiders bring the ensuing kickoff back to their 19. Raiders ball.
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Pass to Holmes goes for 33 yards.
Jennings for 4. 2nd and 6 coming up. Ball at the Texan 44.
Pass goes inc. 3rd and 6 coming up.
Pass to Streater is dropped, inc. Raiders have to punt.
Martin fair catches the punt at the Texan 13. Texans ball.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 12:56 PM
At least there wasn't a flag on the punt return this time.
Flags presnap..... False start Newton. Makes it 1st and 15.
Tate gets about 9. Ball at the 19. 2nd and 6 coming up.
Tate for maybe 1. 3rd and 5 coming up.
Flags presnap.... False start on Myers... Makes it 3rd and 10 coming up.
Pass to AJ off the mark, inc. Texans to punt with 8:25 left in the half.
Ford fair catches the punt at the Raider 43. Raider's ball.
Jennings loses 1.
Pass to Rivera gets 5. 3rd and 6 coming up.
Pass on 3rd down is too high, inc. Raiders have to punt.
Martin brings the punt back to about the Texan 17 or 18. Texan's ball.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 01:06 PM
That was a nice series by the defense.
Keith
11-17-2013, 01:09 PM
Keyshawn Martin is still returning punts. I want to end all life on earth.
Short pass to AJ gets 5. 2nd and 5 coming up.
DJ rushes for 3. 3rd and 2 coming up.
Keenum pressured, throws inc. Texans have to punt.
Raiders bring the punt back to their 36. Raider's ball.
Keith
11-17-2013, 01:12 PM
Now I remember what I like about Keenum, his ability to make something out of nothing.
The result was great, but I am actually getting Keenum fatigue. His deep-deeper-deepest drops of keeping plays alive result or will result in sacks for junior high losses and basically eliminate field goal opportunities.
..of course, with fat aggy kicking still, maybe that's the point.
Jennings for 3.
Jennings gets 6. 3rd and 1 coming up.
Flags presnap. False start Raiders backs it up 5. 3rd and 6 coming up.
McGloin's pass is off the mark, inc. Raiders have to punt.
Yay! Martin finally makes something happen.... returns the punt all the way for the TD! 85 yards!
Texans 14, Raiders 14
2:54 left in the half.
Keith
11-17-2013, 01:14 PM
See? That's Keyshawn's problem... he doesn't muff punts enough. :rolleyes:
Seriously lucky on that return. Near disaster on both Texans TDs.
Thank you Raiders.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 01:15 PM
Keyshawn Martin is still returning punts. I want to end all life on earth.
He just redeemed himself with a punt return for a td for this game anyway.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 01:17 PM
JJ just destroyed the raiders o-line for that sack.
The ensuing kickoff goes out of the endzone, touchback. Raider's ball at their 20.
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Watt with the sack! Loss of 10! 2nd and 20 coming up.
Short pass to Rivera gets 5. Timeout Texans with 3rd and 15 coming up. 2:44 left in the half.
Jennings for 8. Raiders will punt on 4th and 7. 2:37 left in the half.
Martin brings the punt back to the Texan 25. Texan's ball. 2:26 left in the half.
Screen to Tate goes for 9.
Tate all the way to midfield. 17 yards.
2 minute warning. Texans out of timeouts.
Keenum pressured throws it away, inc. 2nd and 10 coming up. Ball at midfield.
Flat pass to AJ gets 5. 3rd and 5 coming up.
Pass to Graham gets 7 and the 1st down.
Keenum spikes it with 1:13 left in the half. 2nd and 10 coming up.
Pass to Posey gets 5. 3rd and 5 coming up.
Deep pass to AJ in the endzone too long, inc. Texans to go for the FG.
Bullock's 51-yarder is good.
Texans 17, Raiders 14
40 seconds left in the half.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 01:32 PM
Man this is a strange game KM returns a punt for a td and Bullock hits a 51yrd fg. What is next?
The ensuing kickoff is downed in the endzone, touchback. Raider's ball at their 20.
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Screen to Jennings loses 3. Timeout Raiders (2 left). 33 seconds left in the half.
Pass to Streater gets 7. Raiders let the clock run out.
Halftime.
Texans 17, Raiders 14
Nconroe
11-17-2013, 01:38 PM
Man this is a strange game KM returns a punt for a td and Bullock hits a 51yrd fg. What is next?
We need Keith to complain about some other position group, maybe DBs.
Halftime stats:
Passing: Keenum 11/18, 154 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT
Rushing: Tate 9/51, DJ 2/2
Receiving: Graham 5/99, AJ 4/41, Tate 1/9, Posey 1/5
Tackles: Sharpton 6, Tarpinian 5, Watt 4, Swearinger 3, Joseph/Reed/Mercilus 2 each
Time of possession: Texans 14:17, Raiders 15:43
Total yards: Texans 192, Raiders 126
1st downs: Texans 5, Raiders 5
3rd down efficiency: Texans 2/8, Raiders 3/9
Redzone: Texans 0/0, Raiders 2/2
Penalties: Texans 4/25, Raiders 5/45
Turnovers: Texans 2, Raiders 0
Raiders bring the 2nd half kickoff back to their 22 or so. Holding on Raiders backs it up 1/2 the distance. Places the ball at the Raider 9. Raiders ball.
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Jennings for 3. 2nd and 7 coming up.
Short pass to Streater gets 13 and the 1st down.
Jennings for 5. Ball at the Raider 29.
End around to Ford gets 4. 3rd and 1 coming up.
Pass is batted down by Tarpinian! Raiders have to punt.
Martin brings the punt back to the Texan 18. Texan's ball.
The result was great, but I am actually getting Keenum fatigue. His deep-deeper-deepest drops of keeping plays alive result or will result in sacks for junior high losses and basically eliminate field goal opportunities.
..of course, with fat aggy kicking still, maybe that's the point.
Agree with this. He thinks he's faster than he is.
Maybe this experience will help him be a solid 2 for years to come.
Tate loses 2.
Pass to AJ gets 7. 3rd and 5 coming up.
Pass to Posey goes inc. Texans have to punt.
Ford brings the punt back to the Raider 27. Raider's ball.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 02:03 PM
McCain sucks.:(
Deep pass to Streater goes for big gainer. Flag on the play..... Illegal contact on Texans is declined. Raiders ball at the Texan 37.
Reece for 1.
Deep pass to Holmes is overthrown, inc. 3rd and 9 coming up.
Flags presnap.... but Raiders had called timeout... So, still remains 3rd and 9 coming up. 9:26 left in the 3rd quarter.
McGloin's pass to Reece gets 20 and the 1st down.
Jennings gets no gain but flags down.....holding on Raiders makes it 1st and 20.
Pass to Rivera in the endzone is complete for the TD.
Raiders 21, Texans 17
8:13 left in the 3rd quarter.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 02:07 PM
This performance is unacceptable. I mean it's the freaking Raiders. 2-14 here we come.
The ensuing kickoff goes out of the endzone, touchback. Texan's ball at their 20.
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Tate for 1.
Keenum's pass off Jones' hands, inc. 3rd and 9 coming up.
Keenum is sacked but flags down......Holding on Graham is declined. Texans have to punt.
Ford brings the punt back to the Raider 41. Raider's ball. 7:33 left in the 3rd quarter.
Jennings gets 2 but flags down.....Offsides Texans makes it 1st and 5 coming up.
Jennings gets 10 and a 1st down at the Texan 44.
Jennings for 1.
McGloin's short pass loses 3. 3rd and 13 coming up.
Pass to Rivera gets 10. Raiders to go for the FG.
Janikowski's 54-yarder hits the upright, no good.
Score remains:
Raiders 21, Texans 17
Texans take over on downs at their 44 with 3:41 left in the 3rd quarter.
Pass to Graham off his hands, inc. 2nd and 10 coming up.
Keenum's pass can't find a home, inc. 3rd and 10 coming up.
Screen to AJ gets 8. Texans to punt.
Lechler's punt goes into the endzone, touchback. Raider's ball at their 20.
Direct snap to Jennings goes all the way for the TD. 80 yards.
Raiders 28, Texans 17
2:26 left in the 3rd quarter.
chuck
11-17-2013, 02:25 PM
They're going to bring Schaub in.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 02:26 PM
WTF? Matt in the game. Fire the entire coaching staff.
nunusguy
11-17-2013, 02:26 PM
Very Interesting ?
BigBull
11-17-2013, 02:28 PM
Kubiak is an idiot.
Nconroe
11-17-2013, 02:29 PM
I like Keenum but he was having a bad day. Well, let's go defense.
Oh shit. Schaub's in.
Texans ball at their 20.
Schaub's pass sails inc. 2nd and 10 coming up.
Pass to AJ goes for big gain. 23 yards.
Pass to AJ goes for 5.
Tate for 3.
On 3rd and 2, Schaub's pass off the mark, inc. Texans going for it on 4th down.....
Flags presnap....offsides Brooks... Texans will punt, now....
Lechler's punt goes into the endzone, touchback. Raider's ball at their 20.
48 seconds left in the 3rd quarter.
Reece for 2.
McGloin's pass too high for the checkdown, inc. Brings up 3rd and 8.
Pass to Moore gets 6. Raiders will punt on 4th and 2.
End of the 3rd quarter.
Martin brings the punt back to the Texan 31 or so.... Texan's ball.
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Pass to Graham goes for 23. Ball at the Raider 46.
Pass to Hopkins too low, inc. 2nd and 10 coming up.
Pass to Martin goes to the Raider 23. 23 yards on the pass.
Tate for about 4. 2nd and 6 coming up.
Pass to Tate deflected, inc. 3rd and 6 coming up.
Flags presnap..... Brooks moved, -5. Makes it 3rd and 11 coming up.
Pass to AJ draws the PI. 1st down Texans at the Raider 10.
Tate for 2. 2nd and goal from the 8.
Pass in the endzone for AJ broken up, inc. 3rd and goal coming up.
Schaub's pass is off the mark, inc. Texans to go for the FG.
Bullock's 26-yarder is good.
Raiders 28, Texans 20
12:13 left in the game.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 02:44 PM
Well at least Bullock hasn't missed a fg today.
Bullock's kickoff is downed in the endzone, touchback. Raider's ball at their 20.
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Pass to Moore broken up by JJo, inc. 2nd and 10 coming up.
Jennings for 2. 3rd and 8 coming up.
Deep pass is caught but out of bounds. Raiders have to punt.
Raiders challenging the previous play........look like he's out of bounds....
Play stands as called, inc.
Raiders to punt with 11:29 left in the game.
Punt goes out of bounds at around the Texan 39. Texans ball.
C'mon Schaub, be a hero. I want a W and don't care who gets it.
Short pass to Martin gets 8.
Pass to AJ gets 9.
Deep pass to Posey a little long, inc. 2nd and 10 coming up.
Pass to Graham goes for 14. Ball at the Raider 29.
Schaub pressured, throws it into the ground, inc. 2nd and 10 coming up.
Tate on the draw goes all the way to the 134 Flag on Raiders for offsides is declined.
Tate loses 2.
Short pass to Tate gets 4. 3rd and 9 coming up.
Pass to AJ in the endzone goes inc. Texans to go for the FG.
Bullock's 30-yarder is good.
Raiders 28, Texans 23
8:02 left in the game.
The ensuing kickoff is brought back to about the Raider 21. Raider's ball.
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Direct snap to Jennings gets 5.
McGloin pressured, throws inc. 3rd and 5 coming up.
McGloin's pass is off the mark, inc. Raiders have to punt.
Martin fair catches the punt at the Texan 30. Texans ball with 6:57 left in the game.
Pass to Graham a little off the mark, inc.
Short pass to Martin off the mark, inc. 3rd and 10 coming up.
Pass to Martin off the mark, inc. Texans to punt.
Lechler's punt is fair caught by the Raiders at their 16. Raider's ball.
BigBull
11-17-2013, 03:16 PM
This fool Willcox talking about the Texans are still in the playoff hunt. smh
Jennings for 4.
Jennings gets 5. 3rd and 1 coming up. A little over 5 minutes left in the game.
Jennings gets 1 and the 1st down.
Jennings for no gain. Timeout Texans (#1)....
Pass to Reece in the flat goes inc. 3rd and 10 coming up.
McGloin is sacked by Watt! Holding on Raiders is declined. Ball at the Raider 15. Raiders will punt.
Oh man.....flags down....looks like roughing the punter for one.... Just 5 yards and the Raiders will still have to re-punt.
Martin fair catches the punt at the Texan 36. Texan's ball.
Pass to Hopkins goes for 7. A little over 3 minutes left in the game..
Deep pass to AJ goes to the Raider 35.
Short pass to Tate gets 8.
Tate goes all the way to the Raider 11!
Tate for 2.
2 minute warning (1:57 left in the game)
BigBull
11-17-2013, 03:23 PM
So, what are the odds of Matt throwing a pick 6 here?
How 'bout 7, boys?
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On 2nd and 8 at the 9 yard line, pass to Tate gets 7, he fumbles but gets it back. Makes it 3rd and 1 at the 2 yard line.
Tate gets hammered for loss of 1. Makes it 4th and 2 at the 3. Texans use timeout #2. 1:15 left in the game.
Flags down presnap, backs it up 5. Makes it 4th and 7 from the 8.
Schaub's pass to AJ in the endzone off the mark, inc and nearly INT'ed. Raiders takeover on downs.
Keith
11-17-2013, 03:31 PM
lol @ Brooks for giving the Texans a fifth down with yet another foul start.
Keith
11-17-2013, 03:32 PM
Wow, Angry Dre just walks out after having words for Schaub.
Raiders kneeling it out.
Final score:
Raiders 28, Texans 23
Nconroe
11-17-2013, 03:33 PM
Truly amazing. Now what.
Wow, Angry Dre just walks out after having words for Schaub.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement, eh? ;)
BigBull
11-17-2013, 03:36 PM
My question is after is horrible performance does Bob finally fire someone?
My question is after is horrible performance does Bob finally fire someone?
No, he's an end-of-the-season guy. I'd be shocked if it happened any other way.....
BigBull
11-17-2013, 03:46 PM
No, he's an end-of-the-season guy. I'd be shocked if it happened any other way.....
You're probably right I'm just sick of the same crap week after week.
sinnister
11-17-2013, 04:19 PM
Anyone want to guess how many wins we will have at the end of the season.....I thought we would win this one.
Time to blow it up.
Again......
Ugh....
This is interesting..... which QB would you start?
QB A last 4 appearances: 2 TD's, 5 INT's
QB B last 4 appearances: 8 TD's, 1 INT
HPF Bob
11-17-2013, 04:49 PM
"Healthy" Schaub had his chance to redeem himself and, had the Raiders had better hands, there were probably three picks.
This was Keenum's worst game of the four and his OL just keeps folding in front of him like a cheap suit. Hard to blame him. Schaub proved he wasn't any better with the same cast instead of with Foster, OD, etc.
Still, you have to blame the play-calling most. When it was 3rd-and-1 inside the 10 near the end of the game, I told the out-of-towner sitting next to me at the bar "They're going to run to the left and they're going to get stuffed." This is what indeed happened and the guy said "how did you know?" I said "It's the only play Kubiak has called in that situation ALL YEAR. The entire free world knows he's going to run that play which is why it gets stuffed.
You've pretty well hit bottom when you lose to Matt McGloin. He wasn't even good at Penn State. I'm shocked he's even on an NFL roster.
We MUST draft Matthews from A&M this fall. We MUST fix the right side of the line. We can't continue with the talentless lugs we have there. They are killing the entire offense.
sinnister
11-17-2013, 04:56 PM
You have to start Keenum. With that being said, Schaub will probably start. We are now playing for a high draft pick friends.
barrett
11-17-2013, 06:19 PM
Keenum over schaub is a no brainer but there is reason to doubt the decision maker has a brain.
As for the OL, they are bad, but Keenum has been terrible against the blitz in every game he has played.
Maybe Case is the QB and maybe he isn't. Maybe he progresses in the remaining games in a way that shows he is. But today QB is a FAR bigger need than RT. Try naming the best RTs in the league. Look at what the best teams in the NFL have invested at RT. Drafting Matthews high in round 1 with big money committed to brown would be idiotic.
chuck
11-17-2013, 07:44 PM
The Texans' irresponsible drafting and player management is going to be exposed in a serious way very soon. The team has so many needs that it will be impossible to address even a real percentage of them. They'll return one productive DL, their LBs are a horrible. The one guy who's any good can't stay on the field. They have a terrible pair of OLBs for a 3-4 team. Their secondary could and should be improved all across the board. And that's just the defense.
Tate will walk and no one knows if Arian can stay healthy so a RB is a must. Their OL blows and I don't think they'll be able to keep Wade Smith so you're looking at needing two or three starting OL. And then the most important position on the team is still a near total unknown. I like Case and I think he can play but a new coach (I'll assume just for the hell of it that Kubiak will be fired) will surely not want to go into his first year with Case at QB.
Basically the entire franchise is a total disaster and a league-wide joke.
popanot
11-17-2013, 08:05 PM
Kubiak just couldn't wait to go back to his boy. You could see it a mile away just based on his presser in the beginning of the week. Schaub has royally sucked for almost a full year now and Kubiak sticks with him throughout. Keenum has a few bad quarters (with his OL sucking rotten eggs, but while the team is still in the game) and he gets yanked. I am so sick of Kubiak and McNair it makes me want to spit nails.
Man, two wildcard wins against a crap Bengals team. What a ride it's been!!! You should be proud McNair!! Maybe in another 10 years you'll reach Uncle Drayton territory in Houston lore.
Not Case Keenum's best game.... but nothing different from what more established players have at times.... Go check Kaepernick/Dalton/Romo/Flacco, etc. stats/box scores over the course of a season.....
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I agree that Kubes was looking for the right opportunity to get his boy in the game....
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Don't get the horniness to draft a QB with the Texans first pick I see on some of the messageboards.... I can respect it but I don't agree with it. I'd rather have a can't miss LB or OL..... The prospect of ending up with the next Geno Smith doesn't really do it for me..... Did we not learn anything from 2002?
HPF Bob
11-17-2013, 11:18 PM
Basically the entire franchise is a total disaster and a league-wide joke.
No, Chuck. That sentence describes the Houston Astros and there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans.
The Texans were almost snakebit this year. They aren't that bad a team but need to upgrade some areas and probably change coaches because the ones they have now clearly can't get the team beyond a certain level.
Look how quickly the Chiefs turned it around in one year. Some snakebit team has that happen every year. This year, the Texans and Falcons both disintegrated but they'll be back next year. Back to the playoffs? Maybe, maybe not. But the Texans will be back next year, especially if they have the nerve to make some big changes.
chuck
11-18-2013, 12:42 AM
No, Chuck. That sentence describes the Houston Astros and there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans.
You are so completely, hilariously wrong about so much that in some ways I would be disappointed if you weren't completely, hilariously wrong about this, too. Happily, I am not disappointed.
And I'll tell you honestly that your complete misreading of the respective state of each franchise really does surprise me because I know you at one time spent a great deal of time with the Astros and I assumed you still do.
The Astros have had an historically bad three year stretch. We all know that. But if you talk with anyone in professional baseball the unanimous consensus is that the team is growing from the bottom up in an impressively powerful way, and no one expects the team to be the league doormat for much longer. Me, I don't give a fck because I can't and won't root for an American League team. I do watch the Astros closely, though, and I follow professional baseball closely. The Astros have been terrible, yes, but they are far from a league-wide joke. Most baseball people are in near awe of what Luhnow has done building up the farm and stockpiling promising arms. How do you not know this? (I fully expect Crane to pull the rug out in three or four years but that's a conversation for another day.)
The Texans, on the other hand, have an owner that no one in football respects, have a head coach that will never be a head coach for another team and a general manager who will never again be a general manager. They can rely on AJ, Watt, Duane Brown. And Myers. Let's make it an even four. Every other player either sucks or won't be back or both or is an injury liability. That's it, dude. Do you want to look at who started for the Texans today and tell me that a quick turnaround is in the works? They could hire Vince Lombardi and this team would suck for another three years.
They are two and eight. This is a two and eight team. They are a disgrace and a joke. Snakebit my ass.
You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.
nunusguy
11-18-2013, 07:43 AM
They are two and eight. This is a two and eight team. They are a disgrace and a joke. Snakebit my ass.
You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.
Dang, the Chuckster has a serious hard-on for the Texans. Who took your Christmas candy from you last year over there on Kirby Drive boy ?
Now I don't know that much about baseball, but I do understand that the Astros are on the rise, but when an organization is rock-bottom that's usually the only way to go. Haven't they had like 2 consecutive 100-loss seasons which is pretty much in the rock-bottom category while the Texans have had 2 consecutive PO seasons ? Now this season is surprising and certainly very disappointing and not just because of the miserable 2-8 record, but it's far too soon to know if this will be a new path for even the near term or just a single-season aberration.
nunusguy
11-18-2013, 07:58 AM
Running back Ben Tate had some tough words for Texans fans.
They booed so loudly during the 28-23 loss at Reliant Stadium that the Texans had to go to a silent-count on offense (something usually reserved for road games).
“These fans here in Houston are so up and down and so wishy-washy,” Tate said. “I’m just shocked at that because this organization has come a long way.
“I just feel like if you’re a true fan, you stick with the team through the tough times and we’re going through a tough time right now.”
http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/11/ben-tate-critical-of-texans-fans/
*****
Ben Tate is an Auburn guy, so he knows something about what "real" fans are, and I'm inclined to agree with him. I know one thing, when I've gone to games at Reliant I'm always surprised to see so many people wait until after KO to come into the stadium, and then wonder what they are thinking when they yell their azzes off when the Texans are on offense just as they do when the D is on the field. Many local fans are certainly uninformed, atleast the ones who attend the games and that's what Tate was talking about. And many cheered loudly when Matt Schaub was hurt a couple weeks ago, well that was pathetic because Schaub has been responsible for some big wins at Reliant in recent years and also along with his wife has been a solid citizen with his time and money re charitable giving here in Houston.
HPF Bob
11-18-2013, 09:22 AM
The Texans, on the other hand, have an owner that no one in football respects, have a head coach that will never be a head coach for another team and a general manager who will never again be a general manager.
I would wager money Rick Smith gets another GM job if the Texans let him go. And McNair is deeply respected around the league for having a relatively clean organization with few missteps.
As for Kubiak, that mini-stroke may cost him another HC gig were he to get fired. But I'd almost guarantee he'll be an OC somewhere.
You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.
One team can't even negotiate a ****************ing tv deal. I got to see more Texans *exhibition games* in Austin this summer than I did Astros games except when they were on the Rangers network.
One team had the league's worst hitting and the league's worst pitching so they retained the hitting coach for another year and kicked the pitching coach upstairs to assist the GM. (You can draw your Marciano analogies here).
True, they had no failures this year of the Ed Reed variety but only because they were too ****************ing cheap to sign anyone who could fail like that. Instead, they gave us cheap failures like Carlos Pena, Philip Humber and Rick Ankiel. They are currently on a 15-game losing streak they have to wait until next April to snap.
Good minor leaguers doesn't mean shit until they are winning in the major leagues. I'm sure the Texans have high praise for their practice squad players too.
No doubt the Texans are a disappointment and some of their wounds (play-calling, Marciano) are self-inflicted. But they are a disappointment because we thought they had the talent in place to win something and because they had made the playoffs two straight years. The Astros may have the talent to win in the Pacific Coast League but they are a hideous joke at the major league level. They will ascend only because enough #1 overall draft choices will eventually make them no longer a laughingstock but I've seen nothing yet to make me think they can ever reach the playoffs, much less win them.
barrett
11-18-2013, 09:22 AM
It's tough for the general fan base to be well informed when you don't have a half decent reporter covering the team. Nothing gets written but puff pieces for 90% of the year, even at 2-8.
As for real fans not booing, I see both sides of that one.
But maybe Tate should be more focused on holding onto the ball and less focused on fan response.
popanot
11-18-2013, 09:40 AM
What McNair does this offseason will tell me all I need to know about this franchise. If McNair can't recognize the fact Kubiak has lost the team and keeps him and his boy-toy around for another year, it will show me he's perfectly fine with mediocrity and his team will NEVER win big.
barrett
11-18-2013, 09:44 AM
I would wager money Rick Smith gets another GM job if the Texans let him go. And McNair is deeply respected around the league for having a relatively clean organization with few missteps.
As for Kubiak, that mini-stroke may cost him another HC gig were he to get fired. But I'd almost guarantee he'll be an OC somewhere.
One team can't even negotiate a ****************ing tv deal. I got to see more Texans *exhibition games* in Austin this summer than I did Astros games except when they were on the Rangers network.
One team had the league's worst hitting and the league's worst pitching so they retained the hitting coach for another year and kicked the pitching coach upstairs to assist the GM. (You can draw your Marciano analogies here).
True, they had no failures this year of the Ed Reed variety but only because they were too ****************ing cheap to sign anyone who could fail like that. Instead, they gave us cheap failures like Carlos Pena, Philip Humber and Rick Ankiel. They are currently on a 15-game losing streak they have to wait until next April to snap.
Good minor leaguers doesn't mean shit until they are winning in the major leagues. I'm sure the Texans have high praise for their practice squad players too.
No doubt the Texans are a disappointment and some of their wounds (play-calling, Marciano) are self-inflicted. But they are a disappointment because we thought they had the talent in place to win something and because they had made the playoffs two straight years. The Astros may have the talent to win in the Pacific Coast League but they are a hideous joke at the major league level. They will ascend only because enough #1 overall draft choices will eventually make them no longer a laughingstock but I've seen nothing yet to make me think they can ever reach the playoffs, much less win them.
As a fellow owner I would LOVE Bob McNair.
Clean organization that will never give the league a black eye...check.
Increases my share of the revenue pie...check.
Hosts great superbowls withprivate airfields for owners jets...check.
Never a threat to stop a real franchise from winning a superbowl...check.
If I was an NFL owner I'd love to have 31 Bob McNairs to compete against and would "respect" the heck out of all of them. I mean the Harlem Globetrotters respect the Generals for their effort and clean franchise.
chuck
11-18-2013, 10:55 AM
I'll admit to being inconsistent in that I place an enormous amount of blame on McNair for the state of the organization while ignoring Crane's many successive missteps in my evaluation of the Astros.
But the organization of football and baseball teams is totally different. You know this as well as I do so I'm not really sure why you're arguing with me. You're free to think that the Texans are closer to being good than I do and my general pessimism is well known around here so maybe you're right. I would love the team to go 14-2 next year under a new coach. I don't see it but who knows. Yeah, I know, the Chiefs. Look, the Chiefs sent more guys to the Pro Bowl last year than the number of games they won. They had plenty of talent. I don't see the Texans in the same place right now ready for an immediate turnaround.
But again, if you were to get a consensus of football people and baseball people on the state of each respective organization I am quite sure that the football people would stress the concerning problems that the Texans have and the baseball people would stress the impressive strengthening of the Astros' farm and the quality of the FO. I don't mean to make light of your situation but no one cares that you can't watch the games in Austin. That has no meaning to anyone evaluating the possibility of future success, not at this point. If Crane spends three years in television wilderness (and he might) that will surely begin to impact the team's ability to sign free agents but I don't see him signing any real free agent in the next decade tv deal or no.
They may lose 100 games again next year but the Astros have a solid plan that has the respect of everyone watching them. The Texans are completely and listlessly adrift. That could not be more plain.
Baseball's better on the radio anyway.
Warren
11-18-2013, 12:21 PM
Tate said. “I’m just shocked at that because this organization has come a long way."
Really? At 2-8? With an 8-game losing streak, something even the horrific 2005 team managed to avoid? If anything, this organization has come full circle.
Keith
11-18-2013, 12:27 PM
The Texans' irresponsible drafting and player management is going to be exposed in a serious way very soon. The team has so many needs that it will be impossible to address even a real percentage of them. They'll return one productive DL, their LBs are a horrible. The one guy who's any good can't stay on the field. They have a terrible pair of OLBs for a 3-4 team. Their secondary could and should be improved all across the board. And that's just the defense.
Tate will walk and no one knows if Arian can stay healthy so a RB is a must. Their OL blows and I don't think they'll be able to keep Wade Smith so you're looking at needing two or three starting OL. And then the most important position on the team is still a near total unknown. I like Case and I think he can play but a new coach (I'll assume just for the hell of it that Kubiak will be fired) will surely not want to go into his first year with Case at QB.
This assessment is so sad and mostly true. The team won't be exposed soon. They've been exposed.
Brooks Reed and Mercilus make me wonder what Connor Barwin's been up to lately. How disappointing is that?
Someone mentioned hubris. Perfect.
Bullock for a 5th rounder.
And I want to like Keenum. I really do. But he is a career backup. Can a new coach return this team to the playoffs next year? Absolutely. Even with Keenum. But Smith needs to go with Kubiak.
HPF Bob
11-18-2013, 12:32 PM
What McNair does this offseason will tell me all I need to know about this franchise. If McNair can't recognize the fact Kubiak has lost the team and keeps him and his boy-toy around for another year, it will show me he's perfectly fine with mediocrity and his team will NEVER win big.
This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.
HPF Bob
11-18-2013, 12:40 PM
If the Astros were an NFL team, they'd be the Jacksonville Jaguars, complete with a midget as their best player. The Jags throw tarps over half their stadium rather than try to attract fans with better talent. The Astros have taken to lying about attendance figures to pretend they have fans.
Mike Brown's cheapness forced the NFL to put in a salary floor. Jim Crane's may force MLB to do the same thing.
chuck
11-18-2013, 12:54 PM
Jim Crane's may force MLB to do the same thing.
That would be fine with me. It's obvious he's cheapskating it because he has an enormous amount of debt and is happy to rake in the money that the league gives him while fielding a team with a $20MM payroll. This will become clear to most people when he starts to let good, arb-eligible players go via trade. We're a couple of years away from that yet though.
popanot
11-18-2013, 01:26 PM
This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.And therein lies the problem. If McNair sticks with the current regime for another season it will prove to me he's more committed to taking care of his good 'ol boys rather than being committed to doing what's right for the franchise and reaching the pinnacle. In addition, it will show me he lacks the vision to see the cesspool his team has become and what needs to be done to move the franchise forward. I can see it now because it's so typical of what he's let happen to date... He'll keep Kubiak and crew another year, they'll get back to roughly .500 football (how can they be any worse than this year) and Billy Bob will proclaim to the world all is good in Texans Nation and we're making strides to improvement. Frickin gag me!!! McNair's the only one on the entire planet that thinks he has the second coming of Bill Walsh at HC.
I don't know what's worse, having a meddlesome owner or a wallflower owner. I'm starting to think the latter is worse. Bud Adams never won the big one and for the most part I couldn't stand him, but at least I could tell he was trying and passionate about his team. Hard to say McNair is passionate about anything right now other than his good 'ol boy network, back-slapping the other owners, and making tons of money.
chuck
11-18-2013, 01:28 PM
McNair called a meeting of the minority owners and apparently the consensus is that Kubiak has to go.
barrett
11-18-2013, 01:37 PM
This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.
He did not clean house in 2005. He almost cleaned house. But he made sure the worst special teams coach in the league survived a regime change for purely personal reasons. That is bad business no matter what business you are in.
sinnister
11-18-2013, 01:48 PM
Kubiak has to go, as well as Schaub and Marciano. Since I said Schaub, Brice MCCain needs to go also. I am starting to watch college games just for the purpose of next years pick, and I hope it very high......And I am praying they don't blow it.
Nconroe
11-18-2013, 01:52 PM
This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.
I'm hoping Kubiak and Schaub, and both are nice guys, are both gone at the end of this 2013 season , early January, 2014 would be ok. sooner, not latter. And best of luck to them in future.
I think Keenum could develop further, as to handle blitzes better, quicker releases at times, given time seems some good potential there.
Turnovers and a few plays are what have done in Texans this year, repeatedly in these close losses.
Tate still has four cracked ribs, bound to hurt sometimes, likely he should be resting.
It was nice to see a good FG and a ST return for touchdown for a nice change in those areas.
Somehow Texans are 101/2 point favorites over Jags this coming weekend.
popanot
11-18-2013, 01:52 PM
McNair called a meeting of the minority owners and apparently the consensus is that Kubiak has to go.Where did you see this? I hope it's true and they really put extreme pressure on McNair, but for now, I'll have to proceed with the "I'll believe it when I see it" mindset. If they're going to do it, just do it now. At least that will assure us of no more Schaub and show signs they're moving forward again by offsetting Kubiak's idiotic move this week.
This assessment is so sad and mostly true. The team won't be exposed soon. They've been exposed.
Brooks Reed and Mercilus make me wonder what Connor Barwin's been up to lately. How disappointing is that?
Someone mentioned hubris. Perfect.
Bullock for a 5th rounder.
And I want to like Keenum. I really do. But he is a career backup. Can a new coach return this team to the playoffs next year? Absolutely. Even with Keenum. But Smith needs to go with Kubiak.
Career backup? I think that's a little harsh after 3.5 games.... Right now, I see him as somewhere between starter and backup.... sort of a Doug Flutie type that can start for long stretches or come off the bench in a pinch. The thing about Case Keenum is his upside.... don't you think Drew Brees struggled in his early days? The way I see it, he's at least going to be a Flutie-type, best case scenario is he ends up a Drew Brees-type.....
Statistically, he's better than most QB's in the league already. Have you seen his vertical stats? In just 3.5 games, has thrown:
Passes of 20+ = 16
Passes of 40+ = 5
Compared to some others (who have been playing most of the year):
Matt Schaub (6.5 games)
Passes of 20+ = 20
Passes of 40+ = 1
Christian Ponder
Passes of 20+ = 20
Passes of 40+ = 2
RGIII
Passes of 20+ = 28
Passes of 40+ = 4
Tom Brady
Passes of 20+ = 27
Passes of 40+ = 5
Pro-rate Keenum's vertical stats over a 10 game span and he's right up there (or better than) with P Manning, Drew Brees, Mathew Stafford, i.e, the best in the league. He's thrown 8 TD's with 1 INT in his 3.5 games. Prorate that over a 16 game schedule and you get 37 TD's and 5 INT's (really good). Schaub's best year (2009), he threw 29 TD's with 15 INT's. So, in conclusion, he's not doing bad for essentially a rookie.....
I've always been a fan of the vertical game so I'm a bit biased but I think he can be a serviceable starter - in Arky's World, I'd love for him to finish out the year (with no interruptions) and perhaps be the de facto starter next year at least during what appears to be changes coming about and a shakeup in the organization...
For the record, I could care less about U of H and only saw parts of a handful of Keenum's TV games in his college days. No less than June Jones has mentioned his incredible accuracy and that's the way I saw it in the preseason - I saw a nice short and intermediate game. He was throwing perfectly-led flair passes and hitting receivers on slants over the middle. So, I'm a little confused about what has happened to this aspect of his game lately..... perhaps he's getting coached up.... :rolleyes:
Warren
11-18-2013, 05:04 PM
Where did you see this? I hope it's true and they really put extreme pressure on McNair, but for now, I'll have to proceed with the "I'll believe it when I see it" mindset. If they're going to do it, just do it now. At least that will assure us of no more Schaub and show signs they're moving forward again by offsetting Kubiak's idiotic move this week.
https://twitter.com/johngranato/status/402530083757256704
The final call is still McNair's, though.
HPF Bob
11-18-2013, 06:31 PM
Two points:
1) McNair is not going to fire Kubiak in mid-season weeks after he suffered a stroke. That would look cruel and might even start a lawsuit.
2) Do we really want to see Wade Phillips coaching again or even have a chance to take the reigns in 2014? If we give Wade an interim HC job for the rest of the season, there will be a push to give him a chance over an entire season. I don't want to see that.
Keith
11-18-2013, 06:59 PM
He was throwing perfectly-led flair passes and hitting receivers on slants over the middle. So, I'm a little confused about what has happened to this aspect of his game lately..... perhaps he's getting coached up.... :rolleyes:
Heh, at this point I would have to consider what sort of negative impacts the coaching or gameplanning might have on his production.
That aside, I don't think it is a fluke that he has struggled in 2nd halves... NFL teams adjust.
Pro-rate Keenum's vertical stats over a 10 game span...
All of those great stats Keenum has have come from broken plays he has extended due to his healthy legs feasting on a slacking secondary that forgets to keep their man in front of them. I watch kids playing flag football learn to make this defensive adjustment, so of course pro teams can too.
And I mention "healthy legs"... a) he's still young, and b) he hasn't made it hardly a month yet. Point being, those fresh legs he has now to extend these plays may not be so fresh in December and January when it would (in theory) really count in future seasons.
Which is part of why he looks like a career backup to me and maybe Flutie is an interesting comparison. The kind of QB that could play an extended stretch of amazing football, but not a decade-long starter that the team may have an opportunity to select in April's draft.
And Brees is definitely the upside, but consider too, Brees is the huge exception to the rule. For all I know, Raider fans think UDFA McGloin is the next Tony Romo, not Case Keenum. How's that for persective?
Heh, at this point I would have to consider what sort of negative impacts the coaching or gameplanning might have on his production.
That aside, I don't think it is a fluke that he has struggled in 2nd halves... NFL teams adjust.
But the Texans don't counter (adjust). So many times in the 2nd halves, I've seen Keenum swarmed and not a checkdown guy in sight.... I really don't think he's (Keenum) a first-half QB only - the 2nd halves have been puzzling to say the least....
All of those great stats Keenum has have come from broken plays he has extended due to his healthy legs feasting on a slacking secondary that forgets to keep their man in front of them. I watch kids playing flag football learn to make this defensive adjustment, so of course pro teams can too.
Well, we all know the deal with stats but they can't be dismissed when evaluating.... Stats are evidentiary - eyeballs fill in the rest.....
Every QB in the league is taped/filmed yet some still manage to get the job done on Sundays for all 4 quarters. At this point in time, I'm pointing the finger at the coaching for not counter-adjusting. Not so sure the problem is Keenum and I'm really not sure what "fresh legs" has to do with it. Probably helps to have "fresh legs" when you're running for your life.... ;)
And I mention "healthy legs"... a) he's still young, and b) he hasn't made it hardly a month yet. Point being, those fresh legs he has now to extend these plays may not be so fresh in December and January when it would (in theory) really count in future seasons.
Which is part of why he looks like a career backup to me and maybe Flutie is an interesting comparison. The kind of QB that could play an extended stretch of amazing football, but not a decade-long starter that the team may have an opportunity to select in April's draft.
And Brees is definitely the upside, but consider too, Brees is the huge exception to the rule. For all I know, Raider fans think UDFA McGloin is the next Tony Romo, not Case Keenum. How's that for persective?
And why can't Keenum be an exception (like Brees)? Brees has been running around in the backfield for 13 years - good thing he's still got "fresh legs". ;) Keenum's ability to extend plays is a positive..... He's not a Cunningham/VY/RGIII/etc type, IMO.
If I was a Raider fan, I'd be thrilled. I think I heard McGloin has earned another start... This is the way stars are born (seriously)...... McGloin has certainly got the league's attention after Sunday.
Keenum may very well end up career backup or even a flash-in-the-pan. Just, some of us aren't so quick to slap the gavel down just yet. At this point in time, I'm betting a lot of offensive coordinators around the league would love to have him....
popanot
11-19-2013, 09:01 AM
The frustrating part is Keenum will likely be part of this team next year whether it's in a starting role or backup role, and anyone not named Gary Kubiak knows Schaub's time is done. Keenum should be playing as much as possible in every imaginable game situation as to prepare him for next year. Kubiak's decision to put Schaub in the game was incredibly arrogant, naïve, totally uncalled for and unproductive and he should have been fired for it.
The frustrating part is Keenum will likely be part of this team next year whether it's in a starting role or backup role, and anyone not named Gary Kubiak knows Schaub's time is done. Keenum should be playing as much as possible in every imaginable game situation as to prepare him for next year. Kubiak's decision to put Schaub in the game was incredibly arrogant, naïve, totally uncalled for and unproductive and he should have been fired for it.
I'm not so sure about that. Really depends on if there is a coaching change or not. If McNair actually pulls the trigger, and I'm still thinking he won't, Keenum being around isn't a sure thing. He's short, not all that fast, and can't read the blitz. We'll likely have a high 1 regardless, and a new regime will want new blood @ the QB spot.
HPF Bob
11-19-2013, 09:11 AM
p.s. - those "well-respected" Astros just got dissed on Jeopardy!, Chuck.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/19/the-astros-were-a-jeopardy-question/
chuck
11-19-2013, 09:46 AM
p.s. - those "well-respected" Astros just got dissed on Jeopardy!, Chuck.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/19/the-astros-were-a-jeopardy-question/
My overall point was that the Astros are respected within the professional baseball community, not within the game show writers' community.
barrett
11-19-2013, 09:52 AM
I'm not so sure about that. Really depends on if there is a coaching change or not. If McNair actually pulls the trigger, and I'm still thinking he won't, Keenum being around isn't a sure thing. He's short, not all that fast, and can't read the blitz. We'll likely have a high 1 regardless, and a new regime will want new blood @ the QB spot.
A new coach will either pick him as the QB (unlikely),or send him out of town. No way will a new coach want a local cult hero as the backup to a hand picked rookie. Unfortunately for Case, his best chance at playing time is Kubiak keeping his job.
popanot
11-19-2013, 09:56 AM
I'm not so sure about that. Really depends on if there is a coaching change or not. If McNair actually pulls the trigger, and I'm still thinking he won't, Keenum being around isn't a sure thing. He's short, not all that fast, and can't read the blitz. We'll likely have a high 1 regardless, and a new regime will want new blood @ the QB spot.I don't disagree with what you say, but even if we do draft a QB and he starts, I think the odds are still good Keenum is here next year. His odds go up dramatically if Kubiak is still here. My point being, Schaub is done and playing him over Keenum in any situation other than injury makes ZERO sense and is totally unproductive as far as the future of this team.
popanot
11-19-2013, 09:59 AM
A new coach will either pick him as the QB (unlikely),or send him out of town. No way will a new coach want a local cult hero as the backup to a hand picked rookie. Unfortunately for Case, his best chance at playing time is Kubiak keeping his job.I think it depends on who the coach is and what scheme they run. I don't think someone like Sumlin - just to use one example - would be scared or intimidated at all having Keenum as the backup or short-term starter.
Nconroe
11-19-2013, 11:29 AM
...Keenum being around isn't a sure thing. He's short, not all that fast, and can't read the blitz. ....
I think those are debateable or not overly strong concerns. Results seem pretty good for a QB. Team does need to improve for sure.
Case is 6'1" which is not really short. There are other successful QB's even shorter right now and most of big names in past were shorter than this. Taller does not mean better.
Not at all fast, in what way?, he seems to have plenty of escapability and movement to avoid lots of trouble and has some good runs for gains. This seems kind of a off base complaint to me, not what my eyes have seen.
Recognizing the blitz - could be, maybe, I suppose lots of QBs have lots to learn their first year or two in the league. Seems the OL and RB whiffing on blocks is a worse concern. I mean what I've seen is Defense is on Keenum really quick on some of these plays. Seems more than fixable with experience.
Accuracy and arm strength seem pretty good from what I've seen.
Team leadership is also pretty high it appears.
Local cult hero, perhaps for some? not to me since I didn't go to UH. I do think a new coach would possibly want his own choice in there, whether Case gets to compete, not sure.
I am glad Keenum is the starter this coming weekend and hope that continues the rest of the year so we can see more before all these decisions need to be made.
The frustrating part is Keenum will likely be part of this team next year whether it's in a starting role or backup role, and anyone not named Gary Kubiak knows Schaub's time is done. Keenum should be playing as much as possible in every imaginable game situation as to prepare him for next year. Kubiak's decision to put Schaub in the game was incredibly arrogant, naïve, totally uncalled for and unproductive and he should have been fired for it.
Yep. In this game day thread, I actually typed in an expletive (something I try to avoid) when Schaub came in. I might be the last person in Houston who was OK with Kubes coming back next year, but it was like watching someone commit career suicide. (Or, if you're into graphic movies, watching someone slit their own throat).
I think those are debateable or not overly strong concerns. Results seem pretty good for a QB. Team does need to improve for sure.
I would agree, he has been good for the Texans. But is that a positive for Keenum, or a negative against Schuab? I'm thinking that we have been so deprived of adequate QB play for a while now, we are seeing things that we just aren't accustomed to seeing. He has made some great plays, school yard style and no doubt it has been fun to watch.
BUT, my dings against Case are likely the same one an incoming coach would have. Based on the sample size, would you rather have Case, Mariotta, Bridgewater, JFF, Taj Boyd, etc?
I'm of the opinion that Case would lose that battle with all of them if anyone but Kubiak is making the decision.
popanot
11-19-2013, 02:52 PM
I don't think there is any question the Texans will draft a QB next year and that QB will compete for the starting job regardless how well Keenum does or who is here as far as QB and/or coaching staff. When to draft one is up for debate, but it would be absolutely foolish for this franchise NOT to draft a QB. Here's what we know...
Schaub = Out - No way the fans let McNair off the hook with Schaub
Yates = Out - Yates who? I'm nearly as confident in saying he's gone just as much as I'm am saying Schaub is gone
Keenum = Unknown - Way too many playing and coaching factors to determine his future right now
FA QB = Doubtful - Cutler's the only starting-level FA QB I know of at this time and who wants him? Weeden, Vick, Blabbert??? Bleh!!
If you look at the above, we'll definitely need 1 or 2 more QBs and the draft or a trade (Cousins - or to a lesser extent RG3, maybe?) are the only viable options.
Nconroe
11-19-2013, 03:16 PM
Based on the sample size, would you rather have Case, Mariotta, Bridgewater, JFF, Taj Boyd, etc?
I'm of the opinion that Case would lose that battle with all of them if anyone but Kubiak is making the decision.
Fair enough, I guess I plan to hold off on my opinion on Keenums rating till after next six games.
It does look like Bridgewater and Mariota are becoming near consensus top two picks at this time, both of these guys are kind of skinny at 210 pounds.
You forgot Derek Carr and Johnny Manziel.
And agree we will likely draft a QB somewhere in top 3 rounds.
some info on top qb's here, some you mentioned are shorter than Case.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1849127-2014-nfl-draft-where-do-top-qbs-fit-best
barrett
11-19-2013, 04:37 PM
Case is by far the best QB on the Texans right now. I am a huge fan. I got goosebumps at the Sunday night game against the Colts when he came out of the tunnel and the stadium went nuts. He needs to play every snap he is healthy for the rest of this season. I have always thought Yates was terrible and don't need to see anything out of him. Schaub should only see the field if Case goes down.
But I have seen nothing that makes me think Case is the future QB. All of the timing routes in our offense are gone. I have not seen him hit a seam route, an out that did not include a moving pocket or scramble, the deep in (AJ's bread and butter for years), and the drag has been limited (he hit Graham late off a designed roll out that turned into a scramble and an across the body throw). He doesn't pick up blitzes at all. I said that after the first week, after the second, and again now.
He throws a beautiful deep ball and escapes the pocket. He is accurate on the run. Could an offense be tailored to him and those strengths? Perhaps. I think our inflexible staff has actually been very flexible with him and given him a ton of shotgun and even some pistol. He has far outplayed Schaub in his 4 starts, but we have still averaged just over 20 points per game in his starts (bottom third of the league in the BUF/STL/ARI territory). And our 2nd half output has been anemic in his 4 starts (6,3,7,and 6 that came from Schaub).
WMH hit the nail on the head when he said the great improvement in QB play is more a condemnation of Schaub than an endorsenment of Case.
Does all of this mean he is incapable of being an NFL QB? Not at all. But I have never seen a new HC bet his success and future on an UDFA with 10 games in the NFL. A new coach will rightfully want the right to be judged on his guy. Especially when that new coach will probably have a top 5 pick to spend. And if we are going with a high draft pick, I don't want Case on the team. You don't want a young guy who is loved in the locker room and worshipped by the fans as your backup while you develop a young QB. You want a veteran who is not a viable starting QB. Now if we went with a veteran next year, I'd love Case as competition/backup plan, but not as the guy a 1st round pick is having to look over his shoulder at.
So like I said, the only way I see Case playing for this team next year is with Kubiak at the controls. Kubiak can then sell McNair on the fact that he unearthed Case, and the 1st round pick can be spent helping compete next year rather than a semi rebuild. So if Case plays great and wins half the games down the stretch (JAX 2 Xs) we may end up with Case and Gary next year. I'd rather have another QB and anybody else.
........have Case, Mariotta, Bridgewater, JFF, Taj Boyd, etc?
On that list, I see two Case Keenums, a Jake Locker and two Geno Smiths. ;)
Not to discourage discussion, but this can better be answered in the off season..... A head-to-head competition with each can never be answered. A hypothetical would just boil down to every individual's opinions....
If we get to see Case the rest of the year, we can better evaluate him... and then, just as important, what will happen with the coaching staff?
Nconroe: JFF = Johnny effin' Football
HPF Bob
11-19-2013, 06:49 PM
Re: Reading the blitz - something only experience teaches and a QB from a spread offense is going to have trouble diagnosing pro defenses until he learns where the reads are in *real time*. That means playing experience and that's what Case is getting now.
Re: UDFA QB. Kinda nonsense. Would an incoming head coach turn down Tom Brady just because he was a 5th-rounder?
A lot of it will depend on what type of offense a new coach wants to run. If it's a West Coast offense like Kubiak's was based on, the expereience will be a plus. If it is not, there may be other players in the offense who aren't a good fit either.
p.s. - It's a shame this isn't one of those years with three can't miss QBs at the top of the draft board. I'm still solidly in the Matthews camp.
barrett
11-19-2013, 07:48 PM
Re: Reading the blitz - something only experience teaches and a QB from a spread offense is going to have trouble diagnosing pro defenses until he learns where the reads are in *real time*. That means playing experience and that's what Case is getting now.
Re: UDFA QB. Kinda nonsense. Would an incoming head coach turn down Tom Brady just because he was a 5th-rounder?
A lot of it will depend on what type of offense a new coach wants to run. If it's a West Coast offense like Kubiak's was based on, the expereience will be a plus. If it is not, there may be other players in the offense who aren't a good fit either.
p.s. - It's a shame this isn't one of those years with three can't miss QBs at the top of the draft board. I'm still solidly in the Matthews camp.
Bob, when was the last time an incoming head coach chose an UDFA with fewer than 10 pro games as his starting QB? Surely if Tom Brady's existence makes it nonsense it has happened before right? Surely some new coach bet his job and future on someone else's UDFA with a limited track record? (and just to correct you, Brady was a 6th rounder)
Oh wait...there's not one. OK.
Perception is reality in the NFL. That's how the Browns fleeced Indy for a 1st for Richardson. Until a young guy accomplishes something, he is largely defined by his draft value. High draft picks who don't perform at all and get cut in their first 2 years always catch on because it is accepted they are talented and the new organization thinks they are smarter than the old one and can get performance out of them.
Keenum has a limited track record of slightly above average QB play with an 0-4 record as a starter. He was passed on 7 times by every team in the league less than 2 years ago. Look at it this way. If Keenum is cut loose by the Texans this offseason do you think that an NFL team will give him a starting job. I mean pay him low starter money and enter training camp with him as their #1 QB? If not, why would a new coach who has no ties to him.
A new coach will want a QB of his own. There are only a few situations where a new coach doesn't get a new QB..
1) When he is hired to coach a contender with a star QB in place,
2) When he is hired on the strength of his ability to turn around a struggling QB who is thought to be "talented",
3) When the team is judged so bad and the QB class so weak that a team decides to fix something else first and stink for a year before getting a QB the following year.
4) Or when too much is invested (financially or in draft pick spent) in the current QB to replace him just yet.
The Texans don't really fall in any of those categories. So we would need a never happened before situation where some new coach bet his career on a 3rd stringer who put together an average stretch of QB play for a team that was crashing and losing all of their games. Now if he reels off 6 wins in a row while actually scoring points in the 2nd half it is a different discussion, but it is almost certainly Kubiak as his head coach in that scenario. Basically if he wins enough to be a real consideration as the Franchise's long term QB, than he probably saves Kubiak's job. If he doesn't, no way does a new guy keep him.
Joshua
11-19-2013, 09:19 PM
Agree with Barrett. Just don't see any way a new coach would risk his career on an undrafted QB that literally no one wanted a mere 2 years ago.
And Brady is such an exception to the rule it's pointless to even bring him up. However, if you do want to hold him up as an example, doesn't that also lead to the conclusion that we shouldn't worry about the QB position because we can just draft a future HOFer in the 6th round?
Nconroe
11-20-2013, 12:25 AM
Undrafted quarterback Jeff Garcia from San Jose State never led a team to a Super Bowl, but his staying power in the NFL makes him worthy of being on this list.****
Entering the league in 1999 after being an undrafted free agent passer who first played in the CFL after college, Garcia became the San Francisco 49ers' starting quarterback. He then went on to make four Pro Bowl appearances in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2007—the first three with the 49ers and the final one with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
Nconroe
11-20-2013, 12:31 AM
astern Illinois quarterback Tony Romo was an undrafted pickup by the Dallas Cowboys in 2003. He remained a backup on the roster until 2006, when then-starter Drew Bledsoe was injured and Romo was put in the starting position.
Eastern Illinois quarterback Tony Romo was an undrafted pickup by the Dallas Cowboys in 2003. He remained a backup on the roster until 2006, when then-starter Drew Bledsoe was injured and Romo was put in the starting position.
Ya, I believe one Tony Romo survived the Parcells --> W Phillips transition, too..... Does history repeat itself? Charismatic undrafted QB making it through a coaching change? Not unprecedented....
-------------------------------
Vandermeer reported on the radio Keenum #7 jerseys are flying off the shelves as Christmas presents....
Nconroe
11-20-2013, 01:04 AM
1. Kurt Warner, QB, Northern Iowa
Signed by: St. Louis Rams
First year: 1998
NFL seasons: 12
Pro Bowls: 4
All-Pro selections: 2
Notes: In addition to being perhaps the greatest Cinderella story in NFL history, Warner is a two-time league MVP who has posted the three best single-game passing yardage totals in Super Bowl history.
Nconroe
11-20-2013, 01:15 AM
4. Warren Moon, QB, Washington
Signed by: Houston Oilers
First year: 1984
NFL seasons: 17
Pro Bowls: 9
All-Pro selections: 0
Notes: Hall of Famer ranks in the top six all-time for career attempts, completions, yards and TD passes.
HPF Bob
11-20-2013, 01:27 AM
Warren Moon was an undrafted free agent who even brought along his head coach (Hugh Campbell). Kurt Warner was a UDFA. Derek Anderson was a sixth-rounder that became the starting QB both in Cleveland and Arizona.
If he continues to start, Keenum will have half a season under his belt and, if he continues his current pace, he'll finish with a 99.0 QB rating, higher this year than Schaub (77.8), higher than Stafford (92.0), Newton (91.8), Roethlisberger (91.3), Ryan (89.2), Cutler (88.4), Luck (87.0), Dalton (85.2), Brady (83.6), RG3 (83.6) and Kaepernick (81.8).
But, of course, Keenum was never drafted so he'll never play again in this league. :rolleyes:
To be fair, ESPN.com has the Total Quarterback Rating (QBR) and rates him at 42.5 out of 100, a ranking still better than Ryan Tannehill, Eli Manning, Matt Schaub, Terrell Pryor, Chad Henne, Geno Smith and Josh Freeman.
barrett
11-20-2013, 08:13 AM
Where did I say anything about UDFA QBs not being able to play? I wrote about 1000 words because I love hearing myself talk, and none of them say anything about Case not being good because he is an UDFA. I said no new coach is going to take a guy with zero track record and zero pedigree.
You can bring up Romo but it isn't even a little similar. Romo survived the Parcells to Phillips transition after starting all 16 games for a 9-7 playoff team. He was already established as the starting QB and had led a team to the playoffs when they changed coaches. Not to mention a new coach was hired because Parcells left, not because he was fired. If Case led us to the playoffs I am pretty sure he would survive a new coach. Obviously that's not happening.
Tony Romo, Warren Moon, and Kurt Warner have nothing to do with whether a new coach will bet his career on a guy with no positive track record.
Joshua
11-20-2013, 09:20 AM
To me, the question is simple. Do you think Case can become an elite QB? If not, you have to try and find one. While i think Case will likely be a serviceable QB, I'm very skeptical of him being great. We've had 8 years of serviceable quarterbacking and you saw where that got us-a damn near riot when our seviceable QB was put in the game last Sunday.
The game has changed. Between rule changes, changes in offensive philosophies, etc., I would argue that who your QB is is almost more important than who the other 52 guys on the team are. Texan fans should know this better than anyone, as we suffered through Manning and are just beginning the Luck era.
Joshua
11-20-2013, 09:34 AM
And let me just add, if you like Case, how are you not drooling over JFF? All he has done is singlehandedly dominate the toughest conference in football as a redshirt freshman and sophomore in the offense Case ran in college. He's Case on steroids.
HPF Bob
11-20-2013, 09:45 AM
All I'm saying is "don't throw him overboard just because he wasn't drafted". Give him a fair chance to win the job, which is probably the rest of 2013. Bring in another guy if you think he's better but the numbers say (at present) that Keenum is better than a lot of former high draft choices that fans drool over.
And don't judge solely on W-L record because he doesn't have the team's top TE, the team's top RB (also a UDFA if anyone recalls) and a piss-poor right side of an offensive line. However, it can be noted that every game he has played in, the Texans were close enough to win with a break or two. I don't hold him responsible for any of the four losses.
For the record, in 2006 the Cowboys were 3-3 after 6 games - Romo replacing Bledsoe in game #6 (a loss to NYG). This was the game, Parcells made the famous quip, (paraphrasing) "Let's not go and anoint him just yet" and everyone goes "har har har, oh, that Parcells.... such a wise and funny guy". But guess who Parcells starts the rest of the year?...... that's right, Tony Romo. Dallas went 6-4 the rest of the way, Romo bobbles the FG snap against Seattle and its over. Wade Phillips, already on the staff, comes in the next year as head coach. (This is a possibility with the Texans - Wade as replacement or placeholder)....
And let me just add, if you like Case, how are you not drooling over JFF? All he has done is singlehandedly dominate the toughest conference in football as a redshirt freshman and sophomore in the offense Case ran in college. He's Case on steroids.
I love JFF but I would be concerned with having two peas in a pod. I don't think he's as accurate as Case and he turns the ball over too much but what, he's still only 20 years old? He's very intriguing..... I'm concerned the NFL might rough him up ala RGIII..... But someone is gonna snag him - wouldn't object if the Texans did it....
barrett
11-20-2013, 11:37 AM
All I'm saying is "don't throw him overboard just because he wasn't drafted". Give him a fair chance to win the job, which is probably the rest of 2013. Bring in another guy if you think he's better but the numbers say (at present) that Keenum is better than a lot of former high draft choices that fans drool over.
And don't judge solely on W-L record because he doesn't have the team's top TE, the team's top RB (also a UDFA if anyone recalls) and a piss-poor right side of an offensive line. However, it can be noted that every game he has played in, the Texans were close enough to win with a break or two. I don't hold him responsible for any of the four losses.
The numbers can be decieving on many levels. I would not judge Case off of W/L record alone, but it's a factor. I would not judge him off passer rating alone, but it's a factor. We are a bad scoring offense with him playing QB and that's a factor. He has been awesome at big plays and deep balls. He has been bad at moving the chains. He has been great in the first quarter. He has been terrible in the 2nd half. He is playing without Foster. AJ appears to love him.
There is plenty to intrigue me. He has not played himself into or out of a job this year and may well do either down the stretch. If Kubiak is coming back the best option is probably Case, something else high in the draft, and an attempt at an immediate reload and hoping this year was an anomaly (from McNair's perspective). Then Kubiak and Case get a year to win a future here.
But if Kubiak is not coming back it's a near gaurantee Case isn't either. He just hasn't done anything in the pros that would make a new coach tie his star to him.
barrett
11-20-2013, 11:44 AM
I love JFF but I would be concerned with having two peas in a pod. I don't think he's as accurate as Case and he turns the ball over too much but what, he's still only 20 years old? He's very intriguing..... I'm concerned the NFL might rough him up ala RGIII..... But someone is gonna snag him - wouldn't object if the Texans did it....
Almost all of these things concern me as well.
I don't think the RG3 thing worries me a ton though. RG3 is not elusive no matter how fast he is (world class speed). He is a straight line guy. Purely in terms of running ability, Manziel looks more like a faster Russel Wilson. He does it with pump fakes and spins and reversing his field and vision. When he scrambles it is essentially Sandlot football. Griffin is straight up field without a ton of wiggle when he scrambles, so guys get way more clean shots (plus he's bad about getting out of bounds or getting down). I don't recall a ton of clean shots on Manziel in the games I've watched. I think his tendency to turn the ball over is way more concerning than anything else.
Joshua
11-20-2013, 12:04 PM
I don't see the accuracy issues with JFF. Isn't he leading all of college football in completion percentage at around 75%? While that's not the end-all, be-all, it's hard to lead the nation in completion percentage as an inaccurate QB.
Turnovers are somewhat of a concern but I'm not sure they aren't a function of him thinking he has to come away with points every possession. He'll never say it, of course, but I suspect he wouldn't take as many chances if his defense played a little better. Admittedly this is speculation on my part.
.............
But if Kubiak is not coming back it's a near gaurantee Case isn't either. He just hasn't done anything in the pros that would make a new coach tie his star to him.
Well, I disagree a bit here. If Kubes is gone and they bring in a defensive-minded head coach/coordinator, he may leave this decision to his offensive coordinator - depends on who that is..... If Wade is elected coach or placeholder, Keenum probably stays. Even an offensive minded head coach may or may not like what he sees in Keenum.... I see it as 50:50 dependent on Keenum's performance the rest of the year. If Keenum has a couple or 3 games where he lights up the scoreboard, he's not going anywhere....
There are 6 games left for Keenum to prove his worth. A lot can happen between now and then. Who knows, if the Texans win 6 or 7 games, McNair might point to the injuries as the reason for the poor season and Kubes stays.
Like I've said, this discussion can be better addressed in the offseason....
Joshua
11-20-2013, 12:34 PM
If Keenum has a couple or 3 games where he lights up the scoreboard, he's not going anywhere...
I think that's Barrett's point. If he does that, Kubiak probably stays (I can already hear McNair talking about Kubiak being a QB guru and look at the great strides he made with Case so it only makes sense to keep Kubiak on to continue the grooming process, etc., etc.).
However, the most likely outcome is Kubiak being fired and the Texans having a top 5 pick. So it ultimately boils down to whether the new coach would rather hitch his wagon to Case or one of the QBs thought to potentially go in the top 5 (Mariota, Bridgewater, Hundley, JFF). That's the question. I'd be very surprised if any coach went with Case over one of them.
I think that's Barrett's point. If he does that, Kubiak probably stays (I can already hear McNair talking about Kubiak being a QB guru and look at the great strides he made with Case so it only makes sense to keep Kubiak on to continue the grooming process, etc., etc.).
However, the most likely outcome is Kubiak being fired and the Texans having a top 5 pick. So it ultimately boils down to whether the new coach would rather hitch his wagon to Case or one of the QBs thought to potentially go in the top 5 (Mariota, Bridgewater, Hundley, JFF). That's the question. I'd be very surprised if any coach went with Case over one of them.
Why? Keenum had a better college career than all those guys....
Joshua
11-20-2013, 12:55 PM
Um, because those guys are almost universally thought of as better pro prospects than Keenum based upon the fact that they are, by all accounts, universally thought of as 1st round picks, and Keenum was universally not considered an NFL prospect, as evidenced by him not being drafted at all and being allowed to sit untouched on the practice squad for a year.
And, I suspect you're joking about (a) Keenum having a better college career and (b) that this automatically translates into what they'll be at the next level, so I won't bother.
However, here's an interesting thought experiment. Do you think we could get a top 5 pick for Keenum? The question answers itself, doesn't it? Whoever did that would get crushed. That is the trade you're essentially asking the next coach to make.
Um, because those guys are almost universally thought of as better pro prospects than Keenum based upon the fact that they are, by all accounts, universally thought of as 1st round picks, and Keenum was universally not considered an NFL prospect, as evidenced by him not being drafted at all and being allowed to sit untouched on the practice squad for a year.
And, I suspect you're joking about (a) Keenum having a better college career and (b) that this automatically translates into what they'll be at the next level, so I won't bother.
However, here's an interesting thought experiment. Do you think we could get a top 5 pick for Keenum? The question answers itself, doesn't it? Whoever did that would get crushed. That is the trade you're essentially asking the next coach to make.
Undrafted guy better than a 1st round pick? Yeah, like that never happens in the NFL... (Hi Arian) :rolleyes:
Statistically, Keenum had a better college career than all those guys. That's. Just. Reality. He was Heisman candidate.... He went undrafted because he was too small by NFL standards and got injured and sucked at the combine... Doesn't mean he's not a baller...
Please join me in watching Keenum for the rest of the year where we may better determine if he's got what it takes.....:) Then, perhaps then we can discuss the merits of each of these can't-miss 1st round franchise QB's.....
Nconroe
11-20-2013, 01:41 PM
just to cover this way to much- so Keenum should joint this list - quite a few names one might recognize as good QBs went undrafted, some not.
http://www.footballperspective.com/matt-mcgloin-is-the-fourth-rookie-udfa-to-start-at-qb-since-2003/
The table below includes all undrafted quarterbacks who started a game during the first season in which they played a game.
Quarterback Year Team Age Record College
Jeff Tuel 2013 BUF 22 0-1 Washington St.
Max Hall 2010 ARI 25 1-2 BYU
Matt Moore 2007 CAR 23 2-1 UCLA; Oregon State
Brock Berlin 2007 STL 26 0-1 Florida; Miami (FL)
Chad Hutchinson 2002 DAL 25 2-7 Stanford
Henry Burris 2002 CHI 27 0-1 Temple
Todd Bouman 2001 MIN 29 1-2 St. Cloud State
Anthony Wright 2000 DAL 24 0-2 South Carolina
Doug Johnson 2000 ATL 23 0-2 Florida
Jake Delhomme 1999 NOR 24 1-1 La-Lafayette
Jeff Garcia 1999 SFO 29 2-8 Gavilan J.C.; San Jose State
Jon Kitna 1997 SEA 25 1-0 Central Washington
Kelly Holcomb 1997 IND 24 0-1 Middle Tennessee State
Jason Garrett 1993 DAL 27 1-0 Princeton; Columbia
Brad Goebel 1991 PHI 24 0-2 Baylor
Erik Kramer 1987 ATL 23 1-1 Pierce J.C. ; North Carolina State
John Fourcade 1987 NOR 27 2-1 Mississippi
Adrian Breen 1987 CIN 22 0-1 Morehead State
Rick Neuheisel 1987 SDG 26 2-0 UCLA
Ken Karcher 1987 DEN 24 2-1 Delgado CC; Notre Dame; Tulane
Todd Hons 1987 DET 26 1-2 El Camino J.C.; Arizona State
Bob Bleier 1987 NWE 23 1-1 Richmond
Mike Hohensee 1987 CHI 26 2-0 Mount San Antonio J.C.; Minnesota
Matt Stevens 1987 KAN 23 0-2 UCLA
Ed Rubbert 1987 WAS 23 3-0 Louisville
Shawn Halloran 1987 STL 23 1-1 Boston College
Jim Crocicchia 1987 NYG 23 0-1 Pennsylvania
Jeff Van Raaphorst 1987 ATL 24 0-1 Arizona State
Scott Tinsley 1987 PHI 28 0-2 USC
Willie Totten 1987 BUF 25 0-1 Mississippi Valley State
Mike Busch 1987 NYG 25 0-1 Idaho State; South Dakota State
Bobby Hebert 1985 NOR 25 2-4 Northwestern State (LA)
Dieter Brock 1985 RAM 34 12-5 Jacksonville State; Auburn
Warren Moon 1984 HOU 28 3-13 Washington
Mike Loyd 1980 STL 24 0-1 Kansas; Tulsa; Missouri Southern State
Joe Pisarcik 1977 NYG 25 4-7 New Mexico State
Terry Luck 1977 CLE 25 0-1 Nebraska
Jim Zorn 1976 SEA 23 2-12 Cal Poly-Pomona
Don Milan 1975 GNB 26 0-1 Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo
Will Cureton 1975 CLE 25 0-1 Texas A&M-Commerce
J.J. Jones 1975 NYJ 23 0-1 Fisk
Larry Lawrence 1974 OAK 25 1-0 Iowa; Miami (FL)
Bill Demory 1973 NYJ 23 1-2 Arizona
Rick Arrington 1970 PHI 23 0-1 Georgia; Tulsa
Don Gault 1970 CLE 24 1-0 Hofstra
Sam Wyche 1968 CIN 23 1-2 Furman
Tom Sherman 1968 BOS 23 1-6 Penn State
Kent Nix 1967 PIT 23 3-6 TCU
John Stofa 1966 MIA 24 1-0 Buffalo
Max Choboian 1966 DEN 24 3-4 Oregon; Cal State-Northridge
Tom Kennedy 1966 NYG 27 0-1 Glendale CC (CA); Los Angeles State
Don Breaux 1963 DEN 23 0-2 McNeese State
Sam Etcheverry 1961 STL 31 4-5 Denver
Tom Flores 1960 OAK 23 5-7 Fresno City J.C.; Pacific
Hunter Enis 1960 DTX 24 1-0 TCU
Tom Greene 1960 BOS 22 1-1 Holy Cross
Joshua
11-20-2013, 02:18 PM
Undrafted guy better than a 1st round pick? Yeah, like that never happens in the NFL... (Hi Arian) :rolleyes:
Statistically, Keenum had a better college career than all those guys. That's. Just. Reality. He was Heisman candidate.... He went undrafted because he was too small by NFL standards and got injured and sucked at the combine... Doesn't mean he's not a baller...
Please join me in watching Keenum for the rest of the year where we may better determine if he's got what it takes.....:) Then, perhaps then we can discuss the merits of each of these can't-miss 1st round franchise QB's.....
I know it sounds like I'm beating Case up and that's not my intention. He's played beyond my expectations and seems like a good kid (although kid may not be the right word, he's only 10 days younger than Matt Stafford). I was mainly just agreeing with Barrett that it is highly unlikely that a new coach would roll with Case. Also, I feel like people are already willing to go with the hometown kid as long as he's decent. We've spent the last 8 years spinning our wheels with a "decent" QB. I'm inclined to try and hit a home run. Now, we may strike out doing that, but that's what I would do.
As for an undrafted person outperforming a drafted one, sure it happens. Someone also wins the lottery or comes home from Vegas with more money than they started with. Doesn't mean the odds are good. There is a wikipedia page which lists all the starting QBs in the league. Take a look, the overwhelmingly majority were taken early in the draft. The handful of late round/undrafted starters are not exactly a who's who of guys you would want to build your team around.
barrett
11-20-2013, 02:20 PM
I think my point is still being missed. I'm really not talking at all about Keenum's ability to play QB.
NFL Head coaches protect their job and how they look over almost anything else. Almost all of them are afraid to go against prevailing knowledge and only do so when they are desperate or untouchable. A new head coach could draft a QB early and they are almost guaranteed to get 3-4 years to see if that QB can play. Munchak with Locker is a good example where he they picked a QB with less talent than our UDFA, and they still get plenty of patience because they are waiting on the "potential" of the guy the franchise invested too much in to give up on. And in that situation you almost have to keep the HC because the organizational turnover makes it even less likely your top pick suceeds.
With an UDFA that didn't cost the organization anything a coach and QB can be dumped at will because there is no investment financially or in draft picks into the player. So a new coach who takes on Keenum would be saying they already have the QB to win with now. So the new coach starts with immediate expectations and a QB that he didn't pick.
Not to mention if you fail with a guy everybody likes you are forgiven to a certain degree (Shanahan could keep his job this year because who could blame him for drafting RG3), but if you fail with a guy nobody else believed in you get ridiculed (McDaniels with Tebow).
Contrast that with drafting a young and "talented" 1st round QB (who may be worse and/or less talented than Keenum). The rookie draft pick delays expectations and gives built in job security by tying them together.
These are the facts of life in the NFL. Everyone is on a non-gauranteed contract (coaches included) and eveyone is out to CYA, or at least until they get so big they are untouchable. Self interest says a new coach will replace Keenum 9 times out of 10.
I will admit the Wade angle is one I hadn't considered since I thought that any season bad enough to oust Kubiak would remove Wade from the running for HC (although I could see some strange McNair scenario where he sticks as DC). But if Wade does become HC, I could see Case staying with a Dana Hogrolson style young OC.
Joshua
11-20-2013, 02:25 PM
And I notice you snuck "statistically" into your claim that Case had a better college career than those guys. I mean, I guess that's true if you only look at career numbers, but by that logic, only guys who stay 4 (or in Case's case-6) years in college can lay claim to having the better college career, when pretty much excludes all the best players because anybody worth a crap anymore comes out, at the latest, when they are juniors, And apparently the conference you play in is totally irrelevant too. Weak sauce.
And I notice you snuck "statistically" into your claim that Case had a better college career than those guys. I mean, I guess that's true if you only look at career numbers, but by that logic, only guys who stay 4 (or in Case's case-6) years in college can lay claim to having the better college career, when pretty much excludes all the best players because anybody worth a crap anymore comes out, at the latest, when they are juniors, And apparently the conference you play in is totally irrelevant too. Weak sauce.
Dang, you were doing good until you threw this out. I didn't "sneak" anything.
If you want to do the research, just pick Case's individual best year and compare it to any of your prospects best year. I'm guessing only JFF will be close....Re: Conference play, well, ya, Keenum probably had it better in Conference USA - but he dominated..... Isn't that what you want in today's Passing NFL? An (accurate) passing fool? Any moron can hand the ball off..... People dissed his preseason performance because, hey, he was doing it against a bunch scrubs.. I'd say, not exactly..... he was showing he was an NFL'er and they weren't. Undrafted Romo amassed his credentials in Div II. and would be welcome to start for a lot of teams.
Speculation is great message board talk but I just think some of you need to back out of the crystal ball for a while and let this thing play out. And..... one more time, this will make a lot more sense at the end of the season when the coaching decisions are settled...
Barrett: Understood.
HPF Bob
11-20-2013, 05:29 PM
Regarding college passing accuracy, Vince Young led the NCAA in completion percentage his junior year at Texas. I think that's because opponents were scared like crap that he was going to run so why not invite him to pass instead?
barrett
11-20-2013, 05:51 PM
And with all that said...I'm a HUGE Keenum fan. I am a UH alum, I watched him for parts of SIX years in college, I loved it when the Texans signed him, I almost drooled when I got to watch a Texans QB make an off schedule play the first time he started, I got chills watching him live vs. Indy, and I think he has an NFL future. If that future can be here and include a Superbowl that would be the ultimate dream.
Maybe part of my pessisism is just my fear that I won't get to see that because I am watching some new coach gut this roster because he wants "his" guys.
Nconroe
11-20-2013, 06:18 PM
So what is the problem(s) with second half. Seems like two different teams.
Is it play calling, execution of play calls? Can it get fixed soon?
HPF Bob
11-20-2013, 07:24 PM
Maybe part of my pessisism is just my fear that I won't get to see that because I am watching some new coach gut this roster because he wants "his" guys.
That's a hazard with any regime change. Some of it depends on whether the GM changes or whether the owner is giving a win-now mandate, etc. There's no guarantee that the next guy, whomever it is, isn't going to clean house - sometimes for better and sometimes for worse.
I'd just like to see Keenum get his chance and I am happy he is getting it. If he doesn't succeed in Houston, maybe he'll get his chance in Buffalo or Tampa or some place.
HPF Bob
11-21-2013, 08:07 AM
BTW, nice to see a long passionate thread around here. Haven't seen one of those in some time although it veered way off the initial subject.
chuck
11-21-2013, 09:10 AM
Considering barrett's lucid if loquacious observations I guess it's doubly surprising that Kubiak would ever have turned to Keenum in the first place.
nunusguy
11-21-2013, 10:35 AM
And with all that said...I'm a HUGE Keenum fan. I am a UH alum, I watched him for parts of SIX years in college, I loved it when the Texans signed him, I almost drooled when I got to watch a Texans QB make an off schedule play the first time he started, I got chills watching him live vs. Indy, and I think he has an NFL future. If that future can be here and include a Superbowl that would be the ultimate dream.
Maybe part of my pessisism is just my fear that I won't get to see that because I am watching some new coach gut this roster because he wants "his" guys.
What a surprise. Why did I think you were from back east Barrett, like maybe Boston ?
barrett
11-21-2013, 10:47 AM
What a surprise. Why did I think you were from back east Barrett, like maybe Boston ?
I posted once upon a time that I was born there and still retain a fondness for the Pats. But I got to Texas as soon as I could (before HS) and have been here my entire adult life and don't plan on ever leaving.
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