Freeman: Would you?

[popanot]

I know this will never happen, so this post is really intended for discussion.

Now that TB has benched Freeman and he's supposedly on the block, if his salary wasn't such a problem and the possibility was there, would you send a mid-to-late round or conditional pick to TB for him?

I know he's struggled lately and has some issues, but he's young, big, has a decent arm, can move a bit and showed flashes last year of being really good. He seems to fit that size mold Kubiak likes.

I think I'd do it if it were at all possible and he'd be willing to negotiate a cap friendly 2-3yr deal. Not saying we get him to start this year over Schaub, but I'd prefer him in the pipeline over Yates or Keenum. His high-side potential exceeds those two, IMO. Albeit, I haven't watched many TB games, but I would like to believe Kubiak could fix any issues he has.

[barrett]

I know this will never happen, so this post is really intended for discussion.

Now that TB has benched Freeman and he's supposedly on the block, if his salary wasn't such a problem and the possibility was there, would you send a mid-to-late round or conditional pick to TB for him?

I know he's struggled lately and has some issues, but he's young, big, has a decent arm, can move a bit and showed flashes last year of being really good. He seems to fit that size mold Kubiak likes.

I think I'd do it if it were at all possible and he'd be willing to negotiate a cap friendly 2-3yr deal. Not saying we get him to start this year over Schaub, but I'd prefer him in the pipeline over Yates or Keenum. His high-side potential exceeds those two, IMO. Albeit, I haven't watched many TB games, but I would like to believe Kubiak could fix any issues he has.

I would. I am higher on Kubiak's ability with QBs than I am on any other portion of his job. Not to mention you are clearly buying low. Plus the guy was despised by his former coach and will be ready to latch onto anybody new and should be very coachable because of that. And he obviously has physical tools.

[WMH]

I would not, especially with the talent coming out in this years QB class. I just assume spend a #1/#2 next April, let them tutor behind Schaub for a year, then cut him loose.

Despite having a big arm, I've never watched any game that Freeman's impressed me with. To each his own, but I'd rather Kubiak mentor a new guy than someone that's already been abused in this league.

[cadams]

I would not, especially with the talent coming out in this years QB class. I just assume spend a #1/#2 next April, let them tutor behind Schaub for a year, then cut him loose.

Despite having a big arm, I've never watched any game that Freeman's impressed me with. To each his own, but I'd rather Kubiak mentor a new guy than someone that's already been abused in this league.

agree .

[HPF Bob]

I don't see anything wrong with promoting Yates first. He showed promise when pressed into service as a rookie and he's already familiar with everything. IMO, we would never get serious about this unless/until it was decided Schaub isn't the guy and since we sunk a lot of cap money into Schaub, I don't see that happening anytime in the future.

[barrett]

I don't see anything wrong with promoting Yates first. He showed promise when pressed into service as a rookie and he's already familiar with everything. IMO, we would never get serious about this unless/until it was decided Schaub isn't the guy and since we sunk a lot of cap money into Schaub, I don't see that happening anytime in the future.

I agree it's unrealistic. But the original thread agreed to that and asked hypothetically. And will never happen.

I think Yates has come along nicely but I'v never seen any reason to think he is more than a 2nd Schaub at best (Good but not great). He just isn't that talented. If we are replacing Schaub in a hypothetical, I want a guy with all the tools, not another overachiever with limitations. If we ever replace schaub it better be for a real upgrade and not Yates.

[popanot]

I don't see Yates as anything but a career backup. I'm not sure how much of the preseason competition for QB #2 was media/fan hype, but I think it was pretty clear there WAS a competition going on, which leads me to believe Kubiak isn't even sold on Yates being the long-term answer.

The way I look at it is, we're not likely to have a high #1 over the next few years to get one of the top QB prospects and Freeman is young, has starter experience and has shown flashes of being very good. I believe a change of scenery and Kubiak could fix what ails him (or at least it's worth a try).

Honestly, I just don't see where the Texans would have the opportunity to get Schaub's future replacement in the pipeline that has the youth, experience and measurable that Freeman brings. You can always hope to catch lightning in a bottle like Wilson, Keapernick and Brees, but there's no guarantee of it. If the Redskins called tomorrow and said they'd send Cousins to us for a #2 I'd jump on that over Freeman, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Like I said, if it were even a remotely possibility and Freeman would re-do and sign a cap-friendly contract, I'd ship Yates and a #5 to TB in a heartbeat. Elevate Keenum to #2 for the rest of this year and let Freeman sit and learn the system and get his head on straight.

[HPF Bob]

I thought Freeman was overrated in the draft and have seen nothing since to change my mind. He wasn't that good at Kansas State. He hasn't been that good at Tampa Bay. He gets selected based on tools but to actually win in this league you need more than tools.

[Joshua]

I thought Freeman was overrated in the draft and have seen nothing since to change my mind. He wasn't that good at Kansas State. He hasn't been that good at Tampa Bay. He gets selected based on tools but to actually win in this league you need more than tools.

I don't have a strong feeling on Freeman one way or the other, but he's had a couple decent years in Tampa. In 2010 (his 2nd year), he threw for over 3,400 yards with 25 TDs and only 6 picks. Last year, he threw for over 4,000 yards with 27 TDs and 17 picks. While not stellar, that's not garbage, and he was pretty comparable to Schaub last year (4,000 yards with 22 TDs and 12 picks). If you think Freeman deserves a spot on the trash heap, a very good argument could be made that Schaub belongs beside him.

[HPF Bob]

We bitch and moan about every pick Schaub throws and then when somebody who threw five more of them last year than he did is about to be dumped, we're in a hurry to give up draft picks to get him?

Schaub is good enough for us to win 75% of our games but we want somebody who'll make it 90% so we can beat teams like the Patriots, Ravens and Broncos (not to mention the Colts). Does Freeman look like that guy? Really?

I think I'd rather have a(nother) shutdown corner. Or a blitzing LB that gets a ton of sacks.

[Joshua]

I don't think anyone is clamoring for Freeman. His name was just thrown out there as a possibility since he appears to be available. While he hasn't been great, he has shown a few flashes, and this was while on a garbage team. If Kubiak is the QB guru that some think he is, he should be able to get more out of him, and a 25% improvement in his prior play would probably rank him ahead of Schaub.

With the rule changes for illegal contact, hitting defenseless receivers, hitting the QB, etc., the league is QB-driven like never before. It's my opinion that it's virtually impossible to run through the playoffs without a QB playing at an extremely high level. While DBs and LBs are nice, I would always prioritize finding a legit QB over everything else by a wide margin.

[popanot]

We bitch and moan about every pick Schaub throws and then when somebody who threw five more of them last year than he did is about to be dumped, we're in a hurry to give up draft picks to get him?Nobody said picks (plural). But yeah, I'd give up a #6 or maybe a #5 for him. I don't see the harm in that. We'll probably get a #5 or #6 back as compensation for Quinn leaving anyway.

Schaub is good enough for us to win 75% of our games but we want somebody who'll make it 90% so we can beat teams like the Patriots, Ravens and Broncos (not to mention the Colts). Does Freeman look like that guy?Does Yates or Keenum? You might think so, but I highly doubt anyone in the NFL does. I'd even question if Kubiak and Smith do. If we could get Freeman on the cheap (low pick and reasonable contract value/years) and Kubiak can clean him up, the potential reward far exceeds the risk, IMO. Not saying I'd start him over Schaub this year, but I'd certainly open up competition next year and let the best man win. I wouldn't mind a bit paying Schaub to ride the pine and be the backup if he lost out.

[Joshua]

This is getting pretty far afield from the thread topic, but me and a buddy ran down the league yesterday and tried to guess which teams would trade for Schaub if the Texans decided to put him on the trade block. Even as a Schaub pessimist, I was surprised at how few teams I could make a credible claim for trading for him. By my count, I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 teams who would do so.

AFC South (Indy - no; Tenn - maybe but I doubt it; Jacksonville - maybe but I think they would rather tank and draft one)

AFC North (Pitt - no; Balt. - no; Clev - maybe but I think they would rather tank and draft one; Cincy - no)

AFC East (NE - no; Miami - no; NYJ - maybe but I doubt it; Buff. - no)

AFC West (Denver - no; KC - no; Oak - maybe but I doubt it; SD - maybe but this looks like basically a push)

NFC East (Dallas - no; NYG - no; Philly - no; Wash. - no)

NFC West (SF - no; Sea. - no; Ariz. - maybe; St. Louis - no)

NFC North (GB - no; Chic. - no; Minn. - probably; Det. - no)

NFC South (NOLA - no; Atlanta - no; Carolina - no; Tampa - probably)

[barrett]

This is getting pretty far afield from the thread topic, but me and a buddy ran down the league yesterday and tried to guess which teams would trade for Schaub if the Texans decided to put him on the trade block. Even as a Schaub pessimist, I was surprised at how few teams I could make a credible claim for trading for him. By my count, I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 teams who would do so.

AFC South (Indy - no; Tenn - maybe but I doubt it; Jacksonville - maybe but I think they would rather tank and draft one)

AFC North (Pitt - no; Balt. - no; Clev - maybe but I think they would rather tank and draft one; Cincy - no)

AFC East (NE - no; Miami - no; NYJ - maybe but I doubt it; Buff. - no)

AFC West (Denver - no; KC - no; Oak - maybe but I doubt it; SD - maybe but this looks like basically a push)

NFC East (Dallas - no; NYG - no; Philly - no; Wash. - no)

NFC West (SF - no; Sea. - no; Ariz. - maybe; St. Louis - no)

NFC North (GB - no; Chic. - no; Minn. - probably; Det. - no)

NFC South (NOLA - no; Atlanta - no; Carolina - no; Tampa - probably)

GMs and HCs get judged first off wins and losses and 2nd off their ability to obtain and develop a QB. Occasionally you can miss 1 time, but missing twice generally gets you fired. Because of this the teams that would be interested are not necessarily the teams where he would be an upgrade.

An interested team would need to view him as an upgrade AND have a coach who is approaching the end of his deal and needs to win now rather than 2-3 years from now. Although even in that setting some coaches try to get a rookie QB in there to convince ownership they should be given more time and patience since they are developing a rookie QB and nobody knows how that will turn out (clearly what Schiano is doing).

Aside from those situations, you would need a team to really invest in Schuab as their guy of the future and I cannot see any NFL team giving up draft picks to do that, even if he is better than what half the teams in the league have. Far more likely is Schaub ends up cut if we ever replace him.

[HPF Bob]

I'm not saying Yates and Keenum would put the Texans over the top only that they cost us nothing in terms of lost draft choices to find out. Yates does have better mobility than Schaub and (it seems in limited exposure) a stronger passing arm. What Yates lacks is experience. Keenum, to me, is a harder sell even though I rooted for him at UH. But he does seem like a valuable backup and the Texans must agree because they chose to keep him rather than expose him to waivers.

[Nconroe]

My opinion is I would not try to make Josh Freeman our QB of future. His own team voted him out of team captain, so not a good leadership indicator.

[barrett]

My opinion is I would not try to make Josh Freeman our QB of future. His own team voted him out of team captain, so not a good leadership indicator.

His own team voted him in 4 years in a row before the HC feuded with him. There were multiple articles that the HC had something to do with fixing that vote. The same HC is feuding with other veterans and the team is coming apart at the seams. Now the HC has gone to a rookie QB to try to lengthen the leash before he is fired.

I think passing on Freeman is fine, but I wouldn't pass on him for anything that occured with Schiano in the last 10 months.

[barrett]

I'm not saying Yates and Keenum would put the Texans over the top only that they cost us nothing in terms of lost draft choices to find out. Yates does have better mobility than Schaub and (it seems in limited exposure) a stronger passing arm. What Yates lacks is experience. Keenum, to me, is a harder sell even though I rooted for him at UH. But he does seem like a valuable backup and the Texans must agree because they chose to keep him rather than expose him to waivers.

I agree if Freeman cost us anything more than a 4th, and if he didn't come with a seriously reduced contract. Really, the interest would not be more than marginal, especially when we could go after signing him for free after the season (to a deal we create). I would love to sign him in the offseason to a Leinhart type deal if he doesn't get big offers to start and he is smart enough to know Kubiak can rebuild a guy in a backup role.

[cadams]

i wouldn't go after freeman. to me he seems like a younger schaub, though maybe with a few more physical tools. if he was out there on the free agent market and you needed a veteran backup, then i would be fine with that, but nothing more.

[HPF Bob]

I agree if Freeman cost us anything more than a 4th, and if he didn't come with a seriously reduced contract. Really, the interest would not be more than marginal, especially when we could go after signing him for free after the season (to a deal we create). I would love to sign him in the offseason to a Leinhart type deal if he doesn't get big offers to start and he is smart enough to know Kubiak can rebuild a guy in a backup role.


If Kubiak felt strongly about him and he was sold on the idea that he would have to earn the job, I am okay with.this. I suspect, though, that he would find better offers.

[barrett]

If Kubiak felt strongly about him and he was sold on the idea that he would have to earn the job, I am okay with.this. I suspect, though, that he would find better offers.

He might get more direct paths to a starting job or maybe a longer deal somewhere else, but if I am a young QB who was considered a franchise guy just a few years ago, I'd prefer a 1 year deal with a QB teacher who can restore my image and give me access to a higher level job with a longer term pay off.

Basically I would bet on myself and take a 1 year deal (especially since backup QB has almost no injury risk), and I would hope to take a much better job from Schaub at best, or rehab my image and have a better chance at a good job at worst. The guy is still only 25 and has the time that he doesn't have to panic. If he'd rather go compete for a cleveland type job, I wouldn't want him anyways.

[barrett]

And just for perspective, when the relationship soured between Freeman and Schiano it was around the midpoint of last season. Since then TB is 1-10, worst record in football. Before that point Freeman had 16 TDs and 3 INTs, and 8.6 YPA on the season. Combine that with a fantastic 2010 (25/6 TD/INT at 22 years old), all the measurables, and you see why a good QB coach would look at him and say, "I can get consistency out of that guy."

[chuck]

... I'd prefer a 1 year deal with a QB teacher who can restore my image and give me access to a higher level job with a longer term pay off.

How effective is Kubiak as a quarterback coach? I've been in the vanguard at promoting this idea, but a little thought proves it to be little more than a myth.

Let's see whom he's tutored as Texans and what they've accomplished after their Texans tenure:

David Carr: No need to scratch at scar tissue here

Sage Rosenfels: No meaningful playing time post-Texans

Rex Grossman: Went to Washington and briefly started

Dan Orlovsky: Started a few games in Indy in 2011 including a win over the Texans, no success beyond that

Matt Leinart: Failed in Oakland and Buffalo, that should tell you something

Jake Delhomme: Nothing as a Texan, nothing post-Texans

Jeff Garcia: Nothing as a Texan, nothing post-Texans

Matt Schaub: I don't know if you could argue that he's better today than he was in 2007

Maybe Kubiak is a great quarterback coach but it certainly isn't reflected in the play of the quarterbacks he's coached with the Texans.

[barrett]

How effective is Kubiak as a quarterback coach? I've been in the vanguard at promoting this idea, but a little thought proves it to be little more than a myth.

Let's see whom he's tutored as Texans and what they've accomplished after their Texans tenure:

David Carr: No need to scratch at scar tissue here

Sage Rosenfels: No meaningful playing time post-Texans

Rex Grossman: Went to Washington and briefly started

Dan Orlovsky: Started a few games in Indy in 2011 including a win over the Texans, no success beyond that

Matt Leinart: Failed in Oakland and Buffalo, that should tell you something

Jake Delhomme: Nothing as a Texan, nothing post-Texans

Jeff Garcia: Nothing as a Texan, nothing post-Texans

Matt Schaub: I don't know if you could argue that he's better today than he was in 2007

Maybe Kubiak is a great quarterback coach but it certainly isn't reflected in the play of the quarterbacks he's coached with the Texans.

I don't look at that list and question Kubiak. I look at that list and praise him. Not one QB on our roster was a starting QB the year before coming here. That means nobody else in the NFL has ever evaluated a guy as a starter before arriving here. Or after for that matter.

That means with the rest of the league's backups we have become a successful NFL franchise. Maybe I am not a huge Kubiak fan, maybe I think Schaub needs to go before we take another step, but I have to tip my cap at Kubs winning as many games as he has in a QB driven league with Rick Smith providing him with table scraps at the league's most important position.

I mean, doesn't it say something that the extremely limited Matt Schaub is the most talented guy on that list?

[chuck]

I mean, doesn't it say something that the extremely limited Matt Schaub is the most talented guy on that list?

I understand what you're saying but I think most people would concede that the Texans' success has often been in spite of the team's quarterback play rather than because of it.

[HPF Bob]

That list is a bit misleading. Delhomme and Garcia were emergencies brought out of retirement. He only had one year with Carr and some of the others were just passing through town.

The reputation comes from developing guys like Brian Griese and Jake Plummer, not the guys at the Texans other than Schaub.

[chuck]

The reputation comes from developing guys like Brian Griese and Jake Plummer, not the guys at the Texans other than Schaub.

Well then, Kubiak's reputation is cemented. Think of how much poorer that pantheon of positional greats would be without Brian Griese and Jake Plummer. And for heaven's sake do not forget Bradlee Van Pelt.

[Nconroe]

I suppose the QB thing started with this from Wikipedia

""Kubiak won his first Super Bowl serving as the quarterbacks coach for the San Francisco 49ers in 1994,[5] guiding Hall of Fame quarterback Steve Young to one of his best seasons. Young received his second NFL MVP and captured Super Bowl XXIX MVP honors by throwing a record six touchdowns in San Francisco’s 49–26 win over the San Diego Chargers""

I thinlk he coached John Elway after that.

That seems like pretty good references.

And you likely knew that.

[barrett]

This just got a whole lot less hypothetical for me.

[chuck]

This just got a whole lot less hypothetical for me.

Fire his dumb ass and let him go back to Denver to coach Peyton. Think about how sweet that would look on the old resume! Steve Young, John Elway, Peyton Manning? What's the common thread? Gary Kubiak, noted genius.

The idea that some palm-licking retard like Kubiak had any positive input into the careers of the likes of Young or Elway is laughable.

[barrett]

Fire his dumb ass and let him go back to Denver to coach Peyton. Think about how sweet that would look on the old resume! Steve Young, John Elway, Peyton Manning? What's the common thread? Gary Kubiak, noted genius.

The idea that some palm-licking retard like Kubiak had any positive input into the careers of the likes of Young or Elway is laughable.

I think you replied to the wrong post. Either way you're an idiot if you think Kubiak is always responsible when things go wrong but never a part of it when things go right.

[chuck]

I think you replied to the wrong post. Either way you're an idiot if you think Kubiak is always responsible when things go wrong but never a part of it when things go right.

No, you're right. Let's give Kubiak all the credit he's due for the excellent defense under the outstanding leadership of DC Frank Bush.

[barrett]

No, you're right. Let's give Kubiak all the credit he's due for the excellent defense under the outstanding leadership of DC Frank Bush.

Again you want to blame him for Bush and give no credit for Wade. It's one or the other. If he gets no credit for Wade he gets no blame for Bush and vice versa.

[Joshua]

Again you want to blame him for Bush and give no credit for Wade. It's one or the other. If he gets no credit for Wade he gets no blame for Bush and vice versa.

Actually, in those particular scenarios, a good argument could be made for what you said. Bush was promoted after everyone else was fired on what was one of the worst defenses in league history. Further, no one was even interviewed. There was never even an attempt to explain this ridiculousness other than Bush was Kubiak's buddy.

As for Wade, there has been serious speculation that he was forced on Kubiak. I guess we don't know for sure but considering his previous hires, it's not an unreasonable conclusion. So, a strong argument could be made that he does bear responsibility for Bush but deserves little credit for Wade.

[chuck]

As for Wade, there has been serious speculation that he was forced on Kubiak. I guess we don't know for sure but considering his previous hires, it's not an unreasonable conclusion. So, a strong argument could be made that he does bear responsibility for Bush but deserves little credit for Wade.

This is so staggeringly obvious that anyone taking a position otherwise can only be defending the palm-licker simply to be contrary.

[barrett]

Actually, in those particular scenarios, a good argument could be made for what you said. Bush was promoted after everyone else was fired on what was one of the worst defenses in league history. Further, no one was even interviewed. There was never even an attempt to explain this ridiculousness other than Bush was Kubiak's buddy.

As for Wade, there has been serious speculation that he was forced on Kubiak. I guess we don't know for sure but considering his previous hires, it's not an unreasonable conclusion. So, a strong argument could be made that he does bear responsibility for Bush but deserves little credit for Wade.

And it would be a hollow argument. Either Kubiak makes the hires and is responsible for the whole team or he is not. I personally think he does not have a huge hand in our defense, other than protecting them with TOP and a good running game. But Bill Bellachik is a defensive coach who gets all the credit for the Pats offense and none of the blame for the crappy defense of the past 5 years. That is what being the HEAD coach means. You are responsible. It is hollow to put it all on the head coach when a team loses and not when they win. That would be like saying we lost today because we are a pathetic group that turtles up when things get tough, because that is our head coach's personality. But we won late against SD and TEN and it has nothing to do with our HC's personality.

[Joshua]

And it would be a hollow argument. Either Kubiak makes the hires and is responsible for the whole team or he is not. I personally think he does not have a huge hand in our defense, other than protecting them with TOP and a good running game. But Bill Bellachik is a defensive coach who gets all the credit for the Pats offense and none of the blame for the crappy defense of the past 5 years. That is what being the HEAD coach means. You are responsible. It is hollow to put it all on the head coach when a team loses and not when they win. That would be like saying we lost today because we are a pathetic group that turtles up when things get tough, because that is our head coach's personality. But we won late against SD and TEN and it has nothing to do with our HC's personality.

No, the hollow argument is attributing the same responsibilty/credit to both decisions when it is very likely that only one decision was his (hint-the bad one) and the other decision was made in spite of his wishes (another hint-the good one).

[barrett]

No, the hollow argument is attributing the same responsibilty/credit to both decisions when it is very likely that only one decision was his (hint-the bad one) and the other decision was made in spite of his wishes (another hint-the good one).

Very likely? According to what, the crack reporters at the Chronicle? You don't have a clue about either situation and are painting them how you want to fit a pre-determined argument. Head coaches get the blame and the credit, simple as that. Kubiak gets the blame today for Schaub even though we were a well coached team. And he got the credit when Hopkins jumped over a guys head on a crappy pass to set us up to win in OT. We can't cherry pick when he is the head coach and when he isn't really the head coach.

[Joshua]

Very likely? According to what, the crack reporters at the Chronicle? You don't have a clue about either situation and are painting them how you want to fit a pre-determined argument. Head coaches get the blame and the credit, simple as that. Kubiak gets the blame today for Schaub even though we were a well coached team. And he got the credit when Hopkins jumped over a guys head on a crappy pass to set us up to win in OT. We can't cherry pick when he is the head coach and when he isn't really the head coach.

Everyone here has to make some educated guesses based on the info. we have. You do it, I do it. We all do it. If you now object to that, i guess we should all just go home because none of us have keys to Reliant.

I don't have the time or inclination to go find articles from 3 years ago, but you know as well as I that it was largely believed that Wade was forced on Kubiak by McNair. At least my speculation has some support.

As for Kubiak, I'm actually more torn than you might expect. I give him a fair amount of credit for our drafts because i think he's heavily involved in the draft and I'm not sure anyone has drafted better than us in the last 4 years. However, since you think such speculation on my part is improper since I'm not there and don't know this for a fact, I guess I should judge him solely on gamedays from now on.

[barrett]

This is so staggeringly obvious that anyone taking a position otherwise can only be defending the palm-licker simply to be contrary.

Chuck, you are so transparent. You piss and whine about every loss but never give any credit for a win. Seriously, I have never seen you make a single positive comment about a coach for our franchise. Every win is in spite of them and every loss because of them. You are a broken record.

It's "staggeringly obvious" to you that we should be 4-0, but the guys who assembled and coached the team that should be 4-0 are palm-licking retards. That is what I mean by hollow. You give NO credit and all blame. Kubiak is the all powerful boogie man behind every failure but the impotent figure head behind every success. It can't be both ways. It's an intellectually dishonest argument.

[chuck]

I expect people who are paid significant amount of money to coach in the NFL to exhibit excellence. Excellence is needed to win championships in the NFL. Kubiak is plainly not operating at excellence.

The defense, over which Kubiak has no real input or control, is playing at an elite level. The offense, which is Kubiak's, is nowhere near its potential and is costing the team games. The special teams I'll leave on McNair's doorstep.

[barrett]

Josh Freeman was not allowed on the sideline by Schiano. He was forced to watch Sunday's game from a suite. Schiano claimed it was mutual and then Freeman's agent said that was a total lie. That whole situation just gets weirder and weirder. You would think Freeman was dating Schiano's daughter from the way it's gone down.

[barrett]

Everyone here has to make some educated guesses based on the info. we have. You do it, I do it. We all do it. If you now object to that, i guess we should all just go home because none of us have keys to Reliant.

I don't have the time or inclination to go find articles from 3 years ago, but you know as well as I that it was largely believed that Wade was forced on Kubiak by McNair. At least my speculation has some support.

As for Kubiak, I'm actually more torn than you might expect. I give him a fair amount of credit for our drafts because i think he's heavily involved in the draft and I'm not sure anyone has drafted better than us in the last 4 years. However, since you think such speculation on my part is improper since I'm not there and don't know this for a fact, I guess I should judge him solely on gamedays from now on.

I know we mostly put this one to rest, but I was looking at the "Wade is the new DC" post from 2011 and you have a comment where you talk about how your biggest disappointment is that the decision making process was identical to Frank Bush being hired. That once again a HC and front office with no defensive knowledge made a hire without full interviews. Now that could be totally true, and Wade could be a lucky guess our guys (Smith/Kubiak) stumbled into, but I bring it up because at the time you viewed the decision making process as identical in the Bush and Phillips situations. You gave no indication of one being Kubiak's decision and the other not. That idea was out there in the thread, but it was not one you put any stock in. Your only position was Kubiak made another dumb hire.

And the biggest shocker of all, Chuck declared it the worst hire ever, Phillips an idiot, and Kubiak/McNair/Smith all retards for hiring him. Funny that now Chuck declares Phillips the genius who saves Kubiak.

And when one poster argued that Wade was a good DC but bad HC, Chuck declared that he was never a good DC and that argument was a fraud and the record didn't back it up. Kind of like Chuck has decided there is no record of Kubiak being good with QBs. The common thread is that Chuck will always bash any decision from anyone in a position of power in the Texans organization. The head coach is always stupid and the owner is always a greedy capitalist. It's like a broken record.

http://www.inthebullseye.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1215&highlight=hire+wade&page=4

[popanot]

Why, yes, yes I would trade for Freeman. :)

[Nconroe]

Just exhange Freeman and Schaub straight up now or end of season?

Not saying I would do that but I guess some one.

[chuck]

It was entertaining to read through that old thread. Joshua was annoyed by the hire because the team didn't seem to consider or interview anyone other than Wade. That seems like a reasonable position to take. I was annoyed because I thought it was largely a PR move, which it was, and because I just sort of generally like being annoyed. I wanted a younger DC who'd bring in new ideas and so on but it would be unreasonably churlish of me to ignore the fact that today's defense despite its several problems is playing very well.

I did mention my conviction that the team would not win with Kubiak as head coach. I have surely remained consistent in that regard.

[popanot]

Just exhange Freeman and Schaub straight up now or end of season?

Not saying I would do that but I guess some one.Tampa is free and clear of Freeman's contract after the season so I doubt they'd want to take on Schaub's crazy contract. I wish a Freeman trade would happen, but no way this franchise makes a bold move at QB (at least not until it's too late). Unfortunately, we're stuck with Schaub until he gets hurt (not wishing that on him, mind you), the season is lost, his contract ends or gets convenient to eat, or the boob HC is gone.

[chuck]

Tampa is free and clear of Freeman's contract after the season so I doubt they'd want to take on Schaub's crazy contract. I wish a Freeman trade would happen, but no way this franchise makes a bold move at QB (at least not until it's too late). Unfortunately, we're stuck with Schaub until he gets hurt (not wishing that on him, mind you), the season is lost, his contract ends or gets convenient to eat, or the boob HC is gone.

This reminds me of something that I was thinking about last night. I think it is very likely that Schaub gets hurt this year. Even with Duane Brown healthy the line is an issue. Anyway, if he does get hurt I certainly hope it happens on the road because to see (and hear) home fans cheer their quarterback's injury would be just about the ugliest thing I can think of.

[barrett]

It was entertaining to read through that old thread. Joshua was annoyed by the hire because the team didn't seem to consider or interview anyone other than Wade. That seems like a reasonable position to take. I was annoyed because I thought it was largely a PR move, which it was, and because I just sort of generally like being annoyed. I wanted a younger DC who'd bring in new ideas and so on but it would be unreasonably churlish of me to ignore the fact that today's defense despite its several problems is playing very well.

I did mention my conviction that the team would not win with Kubiak as head coach. I have surely remained consistent in that regard.

Yes, Joshua's concern was very reasonable. I think it was right too, even though Wade has obviously worked out very well. But he definitely considered the Wade hire just like the Bush hire in how it happened. Kubiak stumbled into a stupid hire and a great one, luck of the draw I guess. Either way both hires are on him/Smith.

And you have been constant (and constantly correct) in declaring we would not win with Kubiak. I still think a strong personality at QB could make up for the nice guy issues with Kubiak (like Cushing does for Wade, the defense without him is not close to the same, he may be as valuable as JJ). I have no problem replacing Kubiak at the same time as Schaub and would do it that way if I was in charge. For continuity's sake (because we are close), I would be ok with dumping Schaub and giving Kubiak a year with a new QB. That is the other reason Freeman appeals to me more than a rookie. Rookie QBs for veteran coaches are usually about prolonging their own time since they can call for patience with the rookie. I don't want a rookie so we need 3 more years to evaluate what we already know about Kubs. Honestly if we could get a proven winner who wanted to come here and was the missing piece at QB that would be ideal. Of course when will that ever happen (Peyton Manning who we stupidly turned away).

[Joshua]

Yes, Joshua's concern was very reasonable. I think it was right too, even though Wade has obviously worked out very well. But he definitely considered the Wade hire just like the Bush hire in how it happened. Kubiak stumbled into a stupid hire and a great one, luck of the draw I guess. Either way both hires are on him/Smith.

And you have been constant (and constantly correct) in declaring we would not win with Kubiak. I still think a strong personality at QB could make up for the nice guy issues with Kubiak (like Cushing does for Wade, the defense without him is not close to the same, he may be as valuable as JJ). I have no problem replacing Kubiak at the same time as Schaub and would do it that way if I was in charge. For continuity's sake (because we are close), I would be ok with dumping Schaub and giving Kubiak a year with a new QB. That is the other reason Freeman appeals to me more than a rookie. Rookie QBs for veteran coaches are usually about prolonging their own time since they can call for patience with the rookie. I don't want a rookie so we need 3 more years to evaluate what we already know about Kubs. Honestly if we could get a proven winner who wanted to come here and was the missing piece at QB that would be ideal. Of course when will that ever happen (Peyton Manning who we stupidly turned away).

At the time, I was more concerned with the lack of due diligence by the team as a whole. Not sure it even occurred to me at the time to try and divide up responsibility for this between McNair and Kubiak. I honestly don't recall but I think I simply lumped them together because I wasn't really thinking of it in those terms at that time.

Regardless, I still think a reasonable person could conclude that Kubiak was primarily responsible for Bush's hire and McNair was primarily responsible for Wade's, which was the initial argument.

Now quit digging up old posts of mine and trying to make me look bad!:D

[barrett]

At the time, I was more concerned with the lack of due diligence by the team as a whole. Not sure it even occurred to me at the time to try and divide up responsibility for this between McNair and Kubiak. I honestly don't recall but I think I simply lumped them together because I wasn't really thinking of it in those terms at that time.

Regardless, I still think a reasonable person could conclude that Kubiak was primarily responsible for Bush's hire and McNair was primarily responsible for Wade's, which was the initial argument.

Now quit digging up old posts of mine and trying to make me look bad!:D

I think it's far more likely that Kubiak was forced into firing his DC than McNair was picking the replacement. I don't think McNair is hands on in those ways. I think the most likely scenario is Kubiak is forced into a move, Phillips is his kind of guy (they run in the same same good old boy, nice guy circle, plus a resume that easily justifies the hire and makes Kubiak think its a good one), and a hire ensues with no other candidates. Kubiak uses the same process (hiring guys he knows), and this time is fortunate to have a guy who takes care of that side of the ball and is unlikely to ever leave for a HC gig.

[popanot]

(Peyton Manning who we stupidly turned away).
As I recall the Texans hands were tied due to the salary cap and they couldn't afford Manning. It sure would've been interesting had they brought him in, tho. Considering Kubiak's stubbornness with not allowing his QB to audible, I'm curious how that would've worked out with Manning. You know darn well Manning would have a huge problem with that and part of me thinks he ultimately would've decided not to come here once he had a true sit down discussion with Kubiak. Manning really went to the ideal situation with Fox.

[Joshua]

As I recall the Texans hands were tied due to the salary cap and they couldn't afford Manning. It sure would've been interesting had they brought him in, tho. Considering Kubiak's stubbornness with not allowing his QB to audible, I'm curious how that would've worked out with Manning. You know darn well Manning would have a huge problem with that and part of me thinks he ultimately would've decided not to come here once he had a true sit down discussion with Kubiak. Manning really went to the ideal situation with Fox.

You raise good points about how well Manning would have meshed with Kubiak. However, I think the salary cap thing was overblown. Teams always find a way when they really want a guy. Schaub was close to 15 mill as best I can recall those last couple years of his first deal, and since he only had a couple years left, the dead money from cutting him wouldn't have been awful. With some creative accounting, cutting Schaub and probably another big money contract (OD, Antonio), I suspect they could have made it work.

[HPF Bob]

This reminds me of something that I was thinking about last night. I think it is very likely that Schaub gets hurt this year. Even with Duane Brown healthy the line is an issue. Anyway, if he does get hurt I certainly hope it happens on the road because to see (and hear) home fans cheer their quarterback's injury would be just about the ugliest thing I can think of.

Ask Mrs. David Carr...

[popanot]

Anyway, if he does get hurt I certainly hope it happens on the road because to see (and hear) home fans cheer their quarterback's injury would be just about the ugliest thing I can think of.I agree. This is never acceptable whether it's a hometown player or an opponent. I think the fans burning Schaub's jersey is a pretty a-hole thing to do too. I mean gripe all you want but it should never get personal like that.

[Nconroe]

Sounds like Tampa actively shopping Freeman now if interested.

[cadams]

As I recall the Texans hands were tied due to the salary cap and they couldn't afford Manning. It sure would've been interesting had they brought him in, tho. Considering Kubiak's stubbornness with not allowing his QB to audible, I'm curious how that would've worked out with Manning. You know darn well Manning would have a huge problem with that and part of me thinks he ultimately would've decided not to come here once he had a true sit down discussion with Kubiak. Manning really went to the ideal situation with Fox.

just my opinion, but i think that even if there weren't cap issues, kubiak would have been against manning coming here, and would have blocked it. as you note, kubiak wants to control the offense to a fault. manning would not have gone along with that, and that would have been an argument kubiak would have lost if manning was signed.

[Nconroe]

We don't really know what Kubiak would do if he had a QB like Manning, just speculate.

At the time Manning was still not fully recovered from 3 surgeries, one had to worry if Manning could come back and if he would be reinjured.

Now we know.

[barrett]

Freeman has been cut. He is collecting his full $8 million salary from Tampa. I would absolutely acquire him for no cost and limited salary so we get a 3 month in house audition (and legitimate alternative to Schaub).

[Nconroe]

So, does Freeman need to clear waivers and then he can negotiate where he prefers? Could be interesting.

[Warren]

No, players with four or more seasons dont go through waivers. He's in his fourth year.

[HPF Bob]

IIRC, he's in his fifth year. If the Texans sign him, though, it will be as much as admitting Schaub's days here are numbered. Instant QB controversy. It would have been better for Rick Smith if this had waited until February.

[Nconroe]

Perhaps a few other teams, like Jacksonville, will over pay for Freeman at this time?

[barrett]

Perhaps a few other teams, like Jacksonville, will over pay for Freeman at this time?

With $8 million from Tampa I'd be shocked if he makes the decision based on finances.

[WMH]

With $8 million from Tampa I'd be shocked if he makes the decision based on finances.

Agree with this. He's going to make his decision on PT. Cleveland lost Hoyer tonight, Manuel went down tonight, etc, etc. He's not going to get PT here coming in around Week 6/7, learning a new system, and be productive. Hell, he hasn't been productive in the last two seasons.....

If Schaub gets benched/injured, TJ will get the call, and if it gets really bad, we'll likely see what Shortie can do.....

Freeman's not coming here, and I'm OK with that.

[HPF Bob]

For those still pining for Freeman, he has narrowed his search to three teams and, while not revealing which ones, this report (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24035994/josh-freeman-decision-nearing-as-former-bucs-qb-narrows-suitors-to-three) gives hope to any Texans fans clinging to this fantasy:

Freeman, who will earn a full $8.6M this season, was not as focused on the finances of his next deal, but more looking at the full scope of the opportunity, sources said. That includes the ability to play in the short or long term, the quality and stability of the coaching staff and the degree of the team's interest, moreso than weighing varied financial offers.

My guess for the three teams:

1. Arizona
2. NY Jets
3. Kansas City

[WMH]

Signed with MN this evening.

[Nconroe]

For me, I'd rather see our two backups get a chance anyways for this season, maybe Schaub can get it back but leash is getting really short unfortunately.