Cba

[popanot]

Interesting read from Mark Murphy, President of the GB Packers, regarding the CBA and the need for a rookie wage scale. It's the first time I've seen any sort of detail into what owners might be thinking as far as how rookies should be compensated.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/17/AR2010121702560.html?hpid=moreheadlines

[NBT]

Interesting read.....now if the NFLPA will only go along, maybe there will be an uninterupted 2011 NFL season. I'm not very sure this will happen though.

[NBT]

I was hearing the other day on one of the networks that DeMorris Smith, the NFLPA pres. is more interested in getting his political career jump started than he is about the CBA. The more attention he can draw to himself, the better he will like it, and the longer he will prolong the conflict.

[chuck]

I was hearing the other day on one of the networks that DeMorris Smith, the NFLPA pres. is more interested in getting his political career jump started than he is about the CBA. The more attention he can draw to himself, the better he will like it, and the longer he will prolong the conflict.

Nonsense. This is all on the owners and don't let anyone tell you different. You should know better than to spout pro-owner garbage like that.

[nunusguy]

How much pressure to get this thing worked out is gonna come from certain players who are early or at the midrange of their careers ? You know the ones who aren't making the really big bucks like the super stars, the Mannings & Bradys & Ray Lewis are probably more likely to stand firm ? They're wealthy with SB rings but the younger guys have got to know that their years are numbered as far as their chances to get theirs go and they might be far more impatient ?

[NBT]

Nonsense. This is all on the owners and don't let anyone tell you different. You should know better than to spout pro-owner garbage like that.

You should campaign for the NFLPA Pres after Smith makes his dramatic exit.

[Nconroe]

the owners cancelled the cba, not the players. owners creating the issue...

according to Forbes, while there are big market and small market teams, average team had a net profit of 33 million last year and value over 1 billion.

here is a forbes article on some of this
http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/25/most-valuable-nfl-teams-business-sports-football-valuations-10-intro.html

new stadiums help profit, tv deals continue to go up, 18 games increases revenue further, contracts aren't guaranteed but players are to honor them, likely rookie salaries will be slotted and capped, wouldn't feel to sorry for owners. owners don't open their books except Green bay who is a public entity, GB has a higher salary number than most teams.

the percent of a bigger pie means all will gain if hold steady on percentages which are rather fudge numbers anyways.

players union seems to be seeking mostly insurance/health gurantees for past and future players, more fair on contract terms guarantees.

does seem perhaps both sides finally starting to sit down and talk with a little clarity and urgency, atleast this week

[nunusguy]

I have 0 sympathy for the players. Many, many of these guys would have the proverbial occupation of "pumping gas" if it wern't for the NFL, and then moonlighting as semi-pros when it comes to their first love of football.
Isn't the minimum annual salary something like 3/4 million ? Make it every year you can without interruption until you are too old. Period.

[chuck]

I have 0 sympathy for the players. Many, many of these guys would have the proverbial occupation of "pumping gas" if it wern't for the NFL, and then moonlighting as semi-pros when it comes to their first love of football.
Isn't the minimum annual salary something like 3/4 million ? Make it every year you can without interruption until you are too old. Period.

This is so preposterously wrong-headed (and wrong) that it is surprising to read even if it is coming from you.

The owners are billionaires. Even the shittiest franchise makes TONS of money. (See: Houston Texans) Some of the players are indeed very wealthy by ordinary standards but for every Peyton Manning there are dozens of Vonta Leaches. These guys are going to play a few years in the league, suffer several concussions, f%ck up their back, blow out their knees and at the age of 40 will be hobbling around like a 90 year old. For what? For $400k a year? And you want to side with airheaded blowhard billionaires like Bob McNair in saying that these guys make too much money? Are you insane?

[nunusguy]

This is so preposterously wrong-headed (and wrong) that it is surprising to read even if it is coming from you.

The owners are billionaires. Even the shittiest franchise makes TONS of money. (See: Houston Texans) Some of the players are indeed very wealthy by ordinary standards but for every Peyton Manning there are dozens of Vonta Leaches. These guys are going to play a few years in the league, suffer several concussions, f%ck up their back, blow out their knees and at the age of 40 will be hobbling around like a 90 year old. For what? For $400k a year? And you want to side with airheaded blowhard billionaires like Bob McNair in saying that these guys make too much money? Are you insane?
Like I said, the Vonta Leaches are making atleast the base annual comp
of 'bout 750 K. In other words players like Leach can make more in a few years than many of us can make in a lifetime. And NFL owners/entrepreneurs are the ones who made these tremendous financial opportunities available to the players with capital they put up and risked. I'm sure there's owners who basically inherited their teams, but the Bob Mcnairs bought them with their own money they made during their business careers. To me there's no difference between a computer programmer or accountant or janitor working for a Fortune 500 company and an NFL player playing for an NFL team, except the football players make a helluva lot more money.

[chuck]

I'm not going to waste too much time with you on this but your analogy is poor. Many owners made lots of money in business, sure, but many use taxpayer funded stadiums. To try to hold them up as paragons of the free market is laughable. They are taxpayer funded monopolists.

An accountant working at a Fortune 500 company may hope for a career spanning many decades. An NFL player cannot. If that accountant feels under-compensated or under-appreciated in his work he may seek work elsewhere. An NFL player cannot.

NFL teams net tens of millions of dollars in profits annually, even the terrible ones. On top of that the franchises themselves appreciate in value faster than most any other asset class, at least the decent ones do. NFL franchises are spectacular investments. If I had a billion dollars or two I would try to buy one, I promise you. But I would not be callous enough to say from the comfort of my taxpayer built suite that the concussed, hobbled players on the field beneath me, the very ones that give my franchise its value, should give me back 20% of their earnings. That's just immoral and insulting.

[painekiller]

Like I said, the Vonta Leaches are making atleast the base annual comp
of 'bout 750 K. In other words players like Leach can make more in a few years than many of us can make in a lifetime. And NFL owners/entrepreneurs are the ones who made these tremendous financial opportunities available to the players with capital they put up and risked. I'm sure there's owners who basically inherited their teams, but the Bob Mcnairs bought them with their own money they made during their business careers. To me there's no difference between a computer programmer or accountant or janitor working for a Fortune 500 company and an NFL player playing for an NFL team, except the football players make a helluva lot more money.

Get your numbers correct and then talk. Kieth can explain this better, but the base salary for a rookie is 310k, it goes up every year to the ten year mark where it is in the 800K+ range.

An undrafted free agent player does not make the big bucks unless he hangs around for a while.

And the average playing life of a player is still only 3 years, most NFL players never make near the money you are asserting. Now a few on every team make huge money.

But the average life of a man who played in the NFL is still shorter than the man who did not play in the NFL. The injuries to the joints, backs and head lead to very low quality of lives for these guys.

[nunusguy]

Get your numbers correct and then talk. Kieth can explain this better, but the base salary for a rookie is 310k, it goes up every year to the ten year mark where it is in the 800K+ range.

An undrafted free agent player does not make the big bucks unless he hangs around for a while.

And the average playing life of a player is still only 3 years, most NFL players never make near the money you are asserting. Now a few on every team make huge money.

But the average life of a man who played in the NFL is still shorter than the man who did not play in the NFL. The injuries to the joints, backs and head lead to very low quality of lives for these guys.
OK if it's "just" over 300K a year that's big, big money by my standards. And pro football was never meant to be a man's life-long career, only something he did a few years of his youth, maybe around 10 for a small minority. Anybody who's fortunate enough in the first place to be born with enough raw athletic ability is just plain lucky, after that if they work hard enough to develope their skill the money they get is more than fair reward for their efforts. Even if it's only a few years at just over 300K annually.
High risk from injury ? Tell that to the guys who work the deep-water rigs in the Gulf and the coal-miners back in W.Virginia.

[nunusguy]

NFL teams net tens of millions of dollars in profits annually, even the terrible ones.
It's not socialism or communism, it's capitalism. I don't see how the owners are under any obligation to pay the players anymore than the bare minimum compensation they can get them at, nor do I think they are under any obligation to share in what some might think is an equitable or fair portion of the teams profits or revenues no more than Peyton Manning or Tom Brady is obligated to share their salary with the guys on their roster making only base minimum.

[Roy P]

I am able to see the point of view that the rookies should not be making crazy guaranteed money unless they have proven themselves. When Jamarcus Russell is making more than Tom Brady, then there is a problem. Taking a look at the article, it seems as if Andrew Luck will be making $19.9 Million over 6 years if he's the #1 pick next year. If he had been smart enough to come out this year, he'd probably have $50 Million guaranteed. So, I might compromise by allocating $30 Million for the #1 pick and allowing contract renegotiations after 2 years for all rookies, not just the ones not drafted in the 1st round. Matt Ryan has shown that a 1st round QB can be under-compensated.

[chuck]

It's not socialism or communism, it's capitalism.

What in the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about any of this? But now that you mention it, taking taxpayer revenue and giving it to an entity far mightier than the individual for its own use is certainly not capitalism. It's more akin to fascism, actually. And furthermore, what do you make of the NFL's revenue sharing? I hope that dangerous example of socialism infuriates you enough to act. Maybe you should call in to the Michael Berry show and vent.

I don't see how the owners are under any obligation to pay the players anymore than the bare minimum compensation they can get them at...

The owners are certainly under no obligation to do any of this, and left to their own devices the league would be run like it was in the 1960s with low pay and no regard to the health consequences suffered by playing the game that further enriches the owners. You're fine with that. I understand. I'm not fine with this, and more relevantly the players are not, either. That is why they unionize. The owners run highly profitable franchises in a league that has never been more popular yet they are trying to squeeze the players. I try to see both sides of any issue that matters to me. In this case I think any sensible person would realize that the players are in the right here.

You say you have "0 sympathy" for the players. I hope you remember that sentiment when your boss at the dirt factory depresses your wages, lowers your working conditions and slashes your benefits.

[Nconroe]

The NFL is such high revenue, like 9 billion a year, seems the owners could negotiate to WIN-WIN position, but it does seem they are trying for WIN-LOSE for players, I don't really like that at all.

The more owners walk out on negotiations, demand ridiculous changes, sue the NFLPA, appear to be to ok with delaying offseason and regulare season, the less I appreciate them at all.

[chuck]

The NFL is such high revenue, like 9 billion a year, seems the owners could negotiate to WIN-WIN position, but it does seem they are trying for WIN-LOSE for players, I don't really like that at all.

The more owners walk out on negotiations, demand ridiculous changes, sue the NFLPA, appear to be to ok with delaying offseason and regulare season, the less I appreciate them at all.

Absolutely. The league is getting almost two BILLION a year from ESPN for MNF alone in a deal will extend through 2020.

It's not some third-string linebacker's fault or some incoming rookie's fault that an idiot like Jerry Jones finds himself with a lot of debt after having built a colossal onanistic fantasy.

[Nconroe]

Here is a small summary of the issues after this last week of 40 hours negotiating with a mediator present.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7443945.html

Apparently discussions to resume discussions this upcoming Tuesday.

It was also reported not one owner was there on the side of the NFL, so that doesn't sound right if true.

And some discussion of NFLPA disbanding the player union and that then the owners would not have organization to lockout. so maybe players could continue using facilities, and negotiate in good faith somehow?

well, hope it works out quickly and fairly for all.

[Nconroe]

Don't hear a whole lot official from the negotiators, have ya'll?

It is a little encouraging there is still no lockout and no de-certification, and a seven day extension of negotiations till next Friday.

So hopefully a little progress finally being made, sure hope it ends soon and the season continues as normal.

I did hear the main difference in two sides wishes is about 25 million per team / per year, at this time. just split the difference and be done with it guys.

[Nconroe]

Seems like the Judge for moment ruled in favor of the players, ending the lockout. Of course NFL owners will file for a stay (continuation of lockout) and repeal of the Judges suspension.

Looks like players from some teams reporting back to the team office and training centers today. They need to if they had workout and offseason bonuses.

So, that could mean no cba for a couple more years while stays in the courts, is a thing speculated on.

That would mean no rookie pay scale and no salary cap most likely.

Perhaps we will have free agency sometime soon, that could be interesting.

I heard projected income is expected to continue rising from current 9B on up to 25B annually perhaps over next 10-15 years and owners want to keep reducing the players percentage of that over time, but who knows what really said.

[Nconroe]

could be something on the stay in next hour or so, or not. That could effect trades for players and when free agency might start and when some real serious negotiations will start.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-27/nfl-players-ask-federal-judge-to-enforce-lockout-ban-deny-bid-for-delay.html

Good for Antwuan Molden, the only player on Texans to show up at Texans facilities yesterday. Got to talk witrh Rick Smith a little.

Maybe help his cause at CB if he can stay healthy.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7537439.html

[painekiller]

judge denied the stay, but the NFL has still not decided what rules to put in place. Most likely they will go back to last years rules which will hurt FA pool.

[Nconroe]

Well, I'm getting tired of the owners and Goddells lockout and trying to spin it. Wonder when the owners will get serious about an upcoming season?

Anyways, here is an article on todays comments from 8th circuit appeals.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Appeals-court-sets-June-3-hearing-on-NFL-lockout-fight-050311

Sounds like they are supposed to sit down and negotiate starting May 16.

Stay hearing or something on June 3.

Lower ticket prices and concession prices or I will be happy with HDTV is my own position now, maybe start following Coogs closer.

[NBT]

Just goes to show you that neither side gives a dam about the fans. However, the $4B the owners squeezed out of the networks in the interim, was a pretty cool move. Now they are squeezing the players up against their need to prepare their bodies for the upcoming season (assuming there will be one), and the owners are locking them out. The injunction has been lifted, so the owners are feeling pretty smug right about now. S.O.B.'s

[NBT]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7647240.html#finalframe


Rookie wage scale and veterans time in the league for free agency appear to be the last 2 stumbling blocks to getting a deal done at this point.

If they don't get it done by the 15th of July (4 days), I'm afraid it will go on on until we miss TC and the pre-season games. Only when the games start paying the players will someone start to agitate to end this stupid thing. Hope that doesn't happen. :mad:

[painekiller]

PFW (my phone app thus no link to either site) are reporting that ESPN.com is reporting that sources from both sides of the negotiation are stating that a deal will be in place by July 21st owners meeting.

If a deal is reached by that date The Hall of Fame game would be in jeopardy, but all other games would be played on time and a full training camp would be in place.

[NBT]

Let's see, that would be Thursday week (10 days from now!). That is really pushing it up tight to get everything like contracts, FA, getting playbooks out to the rooks, and especially to the defense, since they will be playing a new defense. Wade Phillips version of the 3-4. But heck, I'm ready for some football.

[Keith]

In theory teams with the most stability should have an advantage. Makes keeping Kubiak around one more season seem more sensible now than it did seven or eight months ago.

...always the optimism for a new season this time of year, eh? :p

[painekiller]

John Lopez of Sports Radio 610 am had this article posted yesterday about the "soon to end lock out" plan. (http://houston.cbslocal.com/2011/07/11/sources-nfl-12-day-plan-set-to-begin-saturday-at-midnight/)

Sources: NFL “12-Day Plan” To Begin Midnight Saturday
By JOHN P. LOPEZ, SportsRadio 610
July 11, 2011 2:11 PM
From Vandermeer & Lopez

The NFL is confident enough its lockout will be resolved this week, it has established a 12-Day Plan to resume football activities beginning Saturday at midnight, league sources told SportsRadio 610.

Barring an 11th-Hour collapse in negotiations, the agreement between the league and players will be ratified this week – not at the July 21 meetings in Atlanta, as has been reported – ending the longest work stoppage in league history.

The plan, which is broken into three parts, is designed to prevent a mad scramble in player signings, while allowing the league to play full preseason and regular-season schedules.

Under the plan, teams will be allowed to negotiate only with restricted free-agents for four-days, beginning at midnight Saturday. A deadline also will be established, allowing teams to match offer-sheets for their restricted free-agents. Unrestricted free-agents will be contacted during the second four-days of the plan, with the final four-day contact window allowing teams to negotiate with drafted and undrafted rookies.

By completing personnel moves in 12-days, training camps could begin on July 27, allowing teams virtually undisturbed training camp and preseason schedules. The only teams whose schedules would be significantly altered would be the Chicago Bears and St. Louis Rams, who were scheduled to play in the Hall Of Fame Game in Canton, Ohio. The plan also would include expanding rosters for training camps.

Numerous reports indicate the final hurdles in completing the deal are reaching agreement on a rookie wage scale and determining a time frame for unrestricted free agency for veterans.

[NBT]

Don't know where Lopez is getting his info, but I sure hope he is right.

[edo783]

Don't know where Lopez is getting his info, but I sure hope he is right.

PFT says they are hearing the announcement is on for the 17th, so Lopez may have it pretty close to right. I've got even my toes crossed that he does.

[popanot]

Good luck on 'completing personnel moves' in 12 days, NFL. I'll believe it when I see it. The rookies should be easy as long as there's a wage scale and there's very little negotiating room (like contract years). But what's going to happen to the RFA's and UFA's is, a lot of them are going to get low-ball offers and the owners are going to wait it out until the player craters. Some will get big money, but a lot will get low-balled and be forced to re-sign with their former team, which will likely be late into camp/preseason.

[painekiller]

Good luck on 'completing personnel moves' in 12 days, NFL. I'll believe it when I see it. The rookies should be easy as long as there's a wage scale and there's very little negotiating room (like contract years). But what's going to happen to the RFA's and UFA's is, a lot of them are going to get low-ball offers and the owners are going to wait it out until the player craters. Some will get big money, but a lot will get low-balled and be forced to re-sign with their former team, which will likely be late into camp/preseason.

One of the sticks in that wheel is the proposed 90% of the cap must be spent every year. Teams like Tampa Bay are no where near that floor amount and will have to spend gaudy numbers to hit that marks. It will put them in play for 2 or more of the top blue chip guys, and they will have to succeed at spending that money.

With teams having to be above a certain dollar amount, there will be overspending on marginal talents when the top guys have signed.

[edo783]

Assuming a cap of a 120 million, how much will we have to spend?

[NBT]

Sorry I don't have a link, but I remember reading, or hearing somewhere, that the league will give the teams 3 days to sign RFA, rookies, and any other FA's they may have their eye on. If the owners meeting ratifies the agreement Thurs the 21st., then the teams would have until Monday the 25th to get all that done. No way it can get done

ihttp://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7656663.htm.

Found a link in the Chronicle today's paper, Jerome Soloman.

[Nconroe]

Sounds like owners have voted to accept new CBA. Now players need to vote in the next hour and hopefully recertify union. Press releases coming on when players report and FA starts.

[Keith]

Lots of details here:

ECONOMICS:

» Salary cap plus benefits of $142.4 million per club in 2011 ($120.375 million for salary and bonus) and at least that amount in 2012 and 2013.
» Beginning in 2012, salary cap to be set based on a combined share of "all revenue," a new model differentiated by revenue source with no expense reductions. Players will receive 55 percent of national media revenue, 45 percent of NFL Ventures revenue, and 40 percent of local club revenue.
» Beginning in 2012, annual "true up" to reflect revenue increases or decreases versus projections.
» Clubs receive credit for actual stadium investment and up to 1.5 percent of revenue each year.
» Player share must average at least 47 percent for the 10-year term of the agreement.
» League-wide commitment to cash spending of 99 percent of the cap in 2011 and 2012.
» For the 2013-2016 seasons, and again for the 2017-2020 seasons, the clubs collectively will commit to cash spending of at least 95 percent of the cap.
» Each club committed to cash spending of 89 percent of the cap from 2013-2016 and 2017-2020.
» Increases to minimum salaries of 10 percent in Year 1 with continuing increases each year of the agreement.
2011-2012 TRANSITION RULES:

» Special transition rules to protect veteran players in 2011. All teams will have approximately $3.5 million in what would otherwise be performance-based pay available to fund veteran player salaries.
» Each club may "borrow" up to $3 million in cap room from a future year, which may be used to support veteran player costs.
» In 2012, each club may "borrow" up to $1.5 million in cap room from a future year. Both these amounts would be repaid in future years.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d820e6311/article/nfl-clubs-approve-comprehensive-agreement-?module=HP11_cp

Lots more to read in there.

[NBT]

Well the players opted not to vote, saying the owners were trying to pull a fast one on them. Still waiting.......

[painekiller]

And today, out of respect for the Kraft families loss, and the burial of Myra Kraft the players will not make any public statements.

It gives the players side time to read the entire agreement that was approved by the owners.

Hopefully everything is finalized by Monday.

My understanding is the player can return to Reliant starting tomorrow without the player having agreed to the contract.

The league year and free agency will not start until they agree, but contact can be reestablished.

[painekiller]

And today, out of respect for the Kraft families loss, and the burial of Myra Kraft the players will not make any public statements.

It gives the players side time to read the entire agreement that was approved by the owners.

Hopefully everything is finalized by Monday.

My understanding is the player can return to Reliant starting tomorrow without the player having agreed to the contract.

The league year and free agency will not start until they agree, but contact can be reestablished.

[NBT]

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/sports/pro/football&sa=NFL&eid=6797238

Hallalujah, let the footbal season bigin. Are ya ready for some football, I sure am. It's been too long.

[Nconroe]

looks like the players are about to recertify their players union
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/07/30/sports/s074124D95.DTL

and then sides need to work out a few more issues such as
drug testing, player discipline, disability and pension programs.